Flatline

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  • #33930
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @Purofilion

    LOL at Clara PrimePlus! And you’re right – after everything she’s been through it’s a wonder she’s any sort of normal at all. The timetravelling with the Doctor isn’t necessarily a problem in itself (tho it looks a lot like burning the candle at both ends while melting it in the middle as well). Lying about it to your SO definitely is.

    Unless of course there’s another explanation… Clara becoming more Doctorish is keeping her cards close to her chest – she suspects Danny of playing a double game (or being up to something not good) so she’s observing him and not telling him about every time she travels!

    Thanks for the reminder about the various nods to the date of Clara’s death. I’d forgotten about those.

    @blenkinsopthebrave – I will happily settle for a grand-daughter proof if you can’t manage daughter.  Have uncorked a nice bottle of Shiraz to for you in the Rose & Crown, to help your bonkering.

    #33931
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @pedant

    Good points.

    There’s also the reference to the Big Bang in Mummy… about the phone call in BB being GUS. So that’s 3 callouts to that episode so far. Any more I wonder?

    #33932
    DrBen @drben

    @purofilion – You’re undoubtedly correct.  The other downfall is that, if Missy is inside The Doctor’s head (literally or figuratively), she can’t also be the Woman In The Shop, and that connection is just too delicious to pass up.

    Rather, (Theory Number 2!) I suspect a Moffat Loop in play.  Because of something that happens later this season (or in a future season?), Missy chooses Clara to be the Doctor’s… protector? successor?  And she does so by being the Woman In The Shop and giving Clara the Doctor’s phone number.  Something like that.

    #33933
    lisa @lisa

    Just catching up and I have seen several comments regarding little tid bits of the Big Bang episode
    I would have to see that one again because I cant properly recall it all
    In fact- I don’t clearly recall what/who was behind the Pandorica – only that it all was taken from
    Amy’s memories –
    So are we concluding that there might be a potential connection between the Big Bang and Missy theories ???
    I wonder- could that mean something like a ‘return’ of Missy ?? [or is that way too bunkering]
    curiouser and curiouser lol

    #33934
    janetteB @janetteb

    Missy may be in more than one place at a time, ie she may have a projection or pscyhic link or a hard light hologram. Throughout this series there have also been many references to duplications, in Into the Dalek they mention “duplicates”, we have had references to cloning and then in Mummy hard light holograms and at the start of the series, robot/humans. Moffat, being Moffat is giving us too many clues, planting the real ones in the forest of red herrings. I agree that Missy is corporeal but I don’t think the Nethersphere is a real place. Either Missy or a projection of Missy or a miniaturised Missy moves between places/dimensions or something. The Doctor was seeing what Clara saw on his monitor, She is doing something rather similiar I suspect.

    On Clara and the ability to hold her breath, in Deep Breath Jenny is unable to hold her breath any longer but Clara, who has moved away from the group, appears to be having no difficulty. The kiss distracted attention from what Clara was doing. Also the Doctor continually remarks upon Clara having changed, or looking older. Maybe there is something significant about that. (Having said all that I still think Clara is just Clara, caught up in the momentum of her own lies and I agree with @scaryb that she will have to atone for that at some time.

    (I have just started rewatching the entire series and making notes.)

    @scaryb. I have the little Dalek on my keyring.

    @mudlark you always seem to manage to say something original and very worth reading. 🙂

    And the big question.. why have we still not met Ian???

    Cheers

    Janette

     

     

    #33935
    Anonymous @

    Hi @jimbomcmaster – I like reading your posts. I’m positive that getting involved in a debate between you and @bluesqueakpip is the last place I want to be. Bluesqueakpip could vaporize me with devastating logic and you could definitely drown me with words (JK 🙂  ). I am very wordy too, so this might be a terrible thing for everyone at the forum. But I think you are both right in your own way, so I just had to try and explain how.

    [Bluesqueakpip says] to never tell the Doctor he has to follow the rules, but clearly he does, almost always, have to follow them.

    Both right, but Bluesqueakpip’s statement doesn’t need a qualifier. I agree with JimboMcMaster’s idea that the Doctor has limits, but ‘Almost Always’ is the key to making it true.

    The fact that the Doctor very rarely goes back to change his past should tell us that he doesn’t have the option to do that, and that his occasional being-able-to-change-his-past is exceptional.

    I agree and disagree. The Doctor definitely does have the option of changing his own past without outside agencies like the Moment/BadWolf or the TLs, but I agree it IS exceptional.

    What makes it exceptional are Paradoxes, imo.  The Doctor can’t go back and change things he knows happened, because if they didn’t happen then what made him go back and change them.

    (But multiple time lines gets around this kind of paradox).

    Good examples of the Doctor changing his own past without powerful outside agencies are in Blink and the Lake Silencio story arc of season 6.

    Those episodes can also be explained by Time Loops and other theories too.  But if Time Loops are the explanation, then what stops the Doctor from changing things all the time?  

    (Fixed Points is the answer to that, I think).

    But then what’s a fixed point? Etc….  

    Both explanations are right and limit what the Doctor can change,  it depends on which one you like.

    For me, it is simpler to believe Time Loops are rare too, but I have to find my own way out of the Time Loops to make that stay true. 🙂

    My understanding of the Day of the Doctor is that he is only able to change his past because, as a result of the Moment’s interference, it is also his present (ie it’s happening ‘right now’ for Ten and Eleven). I’m under the impression (correct me if I’m wrong) that the Doctor can’t choose to meet his past selves, but that it can be arranged by an outside agency (eg the Moment in the Day of the Doctor, the Time Lords in the Three Doctors (I think I’m right in saying), and a temporal engineering-related accident in Time Crash).

    I totally agree the Doctor can’t meet his past selves without some outside agency keeping the paradox in place. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was an exception for this rule too, since no theory explains everything all of the time in DW.

    I am finally finished, hope it helps.  Now I will prepare myself for the possible fall out.

    <equips helmet, armor, sheild and runs for cover> 😮  Barnable

    #33936
    Arbutus @arbutus

    I had a second watch today, and I am so impressed with this episode! The scenes where people are sucked into the walls and floors are very scary, starting with the really creepy pre-theme cliffhanger. And when the giant hand appears in the tunnel! Great concept, beautifully executed.

    Lines I loved:

    “I’m the Doctor.” “Don’t you dare.”
    “You really do throw your companions in at the deep end, don’t you?”
    “And yes, that is a thing!”
    “I don’t mean edible pie, I mean circular pi. Which I realize would also mean edible pie…” (Do we have pie in the pub?)
    “Is this official? Because I’ve always wanted to ram something.”
    “Take it out and sonic it.”  (And really, to those people who were unhappy with the use of the sonic screwdriver this week, I would say this: If you, like Clara, got to be the Doctor for a day, wouldn’t you want to use it as often as possible?  🙂

    Elements I loved:

    The Doctor’s understated delight over the mystery of the smaller TARDIS, along with the great background music here.
    The revival of the TARDIS is just awesome!
    The Doctor’s discussion of role playing, recalling his conversation with Robin Hood: “the role that you are determined to play – I must play mine, the man who stops the monsters.” Clara’s smile and slight head shake here are lovely.
    The Doctor- the Bloke in the Box.  🙂

    And a few thoughts:

    Despite his difficulty in understanding human reactions, this Doctor gets that sudden talk about shrink rays is going to scare Rigsy off.

    On my second viewing of the scenes with Danny, I couldn’t help but think that we’re giving him a hard time. He really just seemed quite nice and normal to me.

    Has the Doctor seen the Addams Family???? He seemed to get instantly what Clara was telling him to do.

    Rigsy really wanted a hero’s death, I wonder why? I wish we could have had a tiny bit more of his backstory.

    The Doctor was quite nice to Rigsy at the end, it was good to see that.

    Killer Graffiti.
    Toodis!

    #33937
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @capriella   It is interesting that you wanted more information about the Doctor and his past, while some fans are absolutely incensed that Moffat dared to add anything about the Doctor’s past at all!  🙂  One of the many challenges of writing DW.

    @lisa    I have a hunch that Missy is a previous companion of the Doctors- maybe from 1 of the audio stories or comics ??   I think that is not likely, but what a fabulous idea!

    @scaryb   You make a good point about Missy’s line “I chose well” not meaning that Clara is necessarily her tool already. We’ve been assuming that the line meant that Missy has been using Clara all along, but perhaps she hasn’t actually started using her yet? Or, what if she doesn’t mean she chose Clara well, what if it was Danny that she chose, to get to Clara, and thereby to the Doctor? Or something like that. Anyway, mainly, we should not assume anything!

    @janetteb    When I spoke of preferring to see Clara save herself, I was more referring to the idea that the Doctor might “save” her by leaving her behind (in the manner of the First Doctor and Susan, or what Eleven tried to do when he bought the house for Amy and Rory). If it really is best for her to stop traveling with the Doctor, I would hope that she would see that for herself. I agree with your preference for well-rounded, flawed female characters, and I think that this is definitely what we are being given with Clara this series. It was the flaws that were missing previously.

    #33938
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @purofilion    I share your feelings about the need for increased “darkness” in DW. I think that early on, there was an expectation that things would take a darker turn with Capaldi, because of some of his other roles. And now, because we now see a Doctor less given to sentiment, less “cuddly”, we are to some extent searching for moral flaws. I know that we were given the question “I am a good man?”, but it never actually occurred to me to question it! Nothing I have seen this season has changed my view that the Doctor is, essentially, a force for good.

    As you so eloquently said, we have been given plenty of intense and scary stories this year; although, to be fair, not everyone agrees on what is scary! For me, I would say Listen and Flatline were both really intense, scary stories, while Into the Dalek, Time Heist, and Mummy were fast-paced and suspenseful. Deep Breath, too, for that matter, had some very atmospheric, scary scenes.

    By the way: It’s now raining egg shells and arrows on my head. Stop IT!!   Have you been using the Infinite Improbability Drive?

    #33939
    janetteB @janetteb

    @arbutus. Yes what often annoyed me about Amy and Rose was that we were constantly being told that they were perfect. (Glorious Donna clearly wasn’t and Martha, who was perhaps the most deserving of that compliment just never seemed to “make the grade” for the Doctor or script writers). Clara seemed to be of the same mould. I find her far more interesting now and really look forward to seeing where her character trajectory is heading.

    Also occurred to me that Danny might be Missy’s hook for Clara but if so I don’t think he is aware of it.

    (Anyways must dash. People await, things to do. No more “Whoing” until tomorrow.)

    Cheers

    Janette

    #33940
    Anonymous @

    @arbutus indeed yes, Listen was superbly dark and well paced with the Tardis and the voyager ship acting like a brandy snifter gathering the vapours until the pungency made escape essential! The ship (in Listen) and the Tardis itself has concentrated that claustrophobic feeling wonderfully.

    So to @pedant  this idea of the Tardis in siege mode looking exactly like the pandorica was impossible to miss. In siege mode, air pressure is lost -eventually -or if it exists just to ensure the one TL in side it can survive, then the pandorica was a Tardis in siege mode all along. Which means there were two? The pandorica had leaked its dimensional qualities or had been constructed that way over a very long time. It could hold the person in it basically forever -they couldn’t escape yet they could breathe.

    River had the Tardis and it eventually was controlled by something else and went into ‘repeat mode’. So, the Dr flies the pandorica Tardis into his Tardis thus rebooting the universe. What happened to the pandorica anyway? Did it vanish?

    Oops off topic. Apologies! Except if there was a pandorica as a Tardis, where was that found in the 1st place -except wouldn’t Dr notice pandorica as besieged Tardis  during The Big Bang? What if he forgot info after the Big Bang? –  ‘lots of grey areas” he repeats. Who else has a Tardis then?

    What if the tardis has a pocket in it? It’s so large (so the Dr said) that a nethersphere (a no-place with no verifiable dimension)  could exist within it -like a stasis cube which is also like the pandorica or the besieged Tardis. I realise the Nethersphere is huge -the corridors are endless and yet we know the Tardis is equally large and probably the Doctor doesn’t see some of it for years/score of years.

    @arbutus I too loved the lines about “that would also mean edible pie” except boyIlion’s learning means and average (and pi)  and  said did the Doctor mean the other ‘mean’? As in ‘the mean of pi?’ I said “no dear that would be too confusing & it doesn’t exist.”

    As if existence has ever troubled the world of Who.

    Then I’m thinking is Missy definitely 3D? Would she send out these 2D monsters to test Clara and lock the Doctor (by way of …well, the episode) in a siege engine? If something is in siege mode it usually does whatever it can to protect itself including going on the offense? If the Tardis just shut down somewhere (as Eccleston suggested in 2005) it would be ignored and not trouble a soul….

    I don’t know what I’m saying anymore. I shall go now and eat comfort food. Eggs I think.

    Kindest, puro (you’ve been a lovely audience. I thank you)

     

    #33941
    Anonymous @

    @jimbomcmaster and @bluesqueakpip, and anyone else who read my latest post.
    I even confused myself on that one. Apologies for messing it up.

    This is wrong.

    But if Time Loops are the explanation, then what stops the Doctor from changing things all the time?
    (Fixed Points is the answer to that, I think).
    But then what’s a fixed point? Etc….

    The ‘fixed points’questions are not only problems to answer for Time Loops, they are the exact same for multiple time lines too. What I should have said is:

    What stops the Doctor from changing things all the time?
    It doesn’t matter which time line system you choose. The only answer I know is Fixed Points, for Multiple Time Lines and Time Loops.

    So Multiple Time Lines are not ‘simpler?’ (more simple) than Time Loops. Sorry Time Loop people.

    #33943
    BadWulf @badwulf

    @arbutus The Doctor was quite nice to Rigsy at the end, it was good to see that.

    It was almost as if the Doctor knew that he didn’t have a malevolent backstory just waiting to cause a climactic end-of-season finale!

    Or it could just have been the fact that he didn’t set off the Doctor’s newfound anti-squaddie prejudice.

    I thought that Rigsy’s performance and the writing of his character, especially the interactions with Clara, were a high point of the episode.

    #33944
    FlirtingDinosaur @flirtingdinosaur

    @badwulf I thought so too. Rigsy was well done; written and executed. I loved the way he said goodbye, so in awe of Clara and hardly even noticing the Doctor. For most, it’s the Doctor with his companions, for him it was Clara, and that bloke in the box.

    #33945
    Anonymous @

    Hello @arbutus and @drben (Welcome back!),

    You both seemed to like this episode as much as me. For some reason it is impossible for me to put into words what I thought about this episode. There is nothing in it that I didn’t think was the greatest thing ever. So I think it is better to sit this analysis out, without just writing a start to finish recap of the whole episode with lots of – I liked’s, I liked’s mores, I liked’s mostes, and I loved’s – thrown in for every single line and scene. 🙂

     Both of your posts matched exactly what I was thinking, so I will just tell people that’s what I think too.

     @Arbutus the Toodis is my favorite line! Idk why but it cracks me up. I think you are the only one to mention that. 😀

     It is impossible for me not to think Clara is TL training now. I agree it’s interesting, that the Doctor did noticed Rigsy might leave before Clara did.  But I think it is important that the Doctor warned Clara not to do anything to scare Rigsy off, before she even started talking about shrink rays. So imo, the Doctor was speaking more from experience (like a trainer), than he was reading any reactions from Rigsy. It’s funny to watch how Clara wasn’t’ reading Danny’s reactions either because of her lack of experience and she was acting so much like the Doctor. 🙂

    I agree Danny was nice, but now I have a problem with him being too nice!?! Argh! His character just doesn’t make any sense right now. We just need more information and I think it will get better.

    Has the Doctor seen the Addams Family???? He seemed to get instantly what Clara was telling him to do.

    I thought Flatline was perfect (no problems to solve), but this one worried me when I read your post. But after thinking about it, I’m OK with believing the Doctor has seen or knows of The Addams Family, especially since he did have a severed hand flying around in the TARDIS for a year or two. Maybe The Doctor’s Hand had a secret life we never knew about? Captain Jack did have the hand for a while, so who knows what he might have done with it. 😆

    Now that you mention Rigsy’s death wish, it does seem strange. I didn’t notice at the time, since Clara was doing such a good job being the Doctor and talking him out of it. Rigsy was a likable character, so maybe we will see him again and get more of his back-story then. It might be interesting since Rigsy’s Auntie died, similar to Mickey’s Grann, so maybe that explains why, because Mickey became a pretty good hero too.

    DrBen Missy is the Seagull!!! was brilliant. haha  😉

    I believe almost any Missy theory at this point, I’m soooo glad that Seagull didn’t die. 😆

    Although it could be that Missy hacked the Seagull’s optic nerve and that’s how she was watching Clara at the end. 💡

    TY for liking my theory, it is much better than Dino Missy, which seems to be deflated at this point. But I’m still not completely sure. SM <shakes fist> 😡

    Your theory has a very good chance of being right I think. Especially after MotOE, where it looked to me like the Doctor was talking to himself. And it explains the writing on the chalkboard in Listen. The only problem I have with explaining the theory is the PC from the Caretaker. I don’t know how 12 collected him if he never met the PC. Other than that, I always though the Doctor could be the one collecting people from the beginning of S8, but never thought Missy was actually inside his head.  All I know is I definitely can’t get that image of a TARDIS full of candy out of my head now. 😕

    #33947
    Brewski @brewski

    One moment I don’t recall seeing mentioned which tickled me no end was the Doctor’s little wonderfully out of character Happy Dance after successfully moving the Tardis off the tracks.  😀

    #33948
    DrBen @drben

    @purofilion In siege mode, air pressure is lost -eventually

    To be even more @pedant -ic, I believe these two things are unconnected.  My understanding was that the TARDIS went into siege mode because it was having its power drained by the Boneless, but at the same time, the loss of power caused the life support to fail (he says “life support failing” at some point).  It would be a pretty poorly designed siege mode if it slowly killed the inhabitant it was supposed to save. 🙂

    @barnable The only problem I have with explaining the theory is the PC from the Caretaker. I don’t know how 12 collected him if he never met the PC.

    An excellent point, and one I’d forgotten about.  Oh well – there goes that theory.

    SO here is another Bonkers Missy Theory:  Could she be a later regeneration of the Time Lord Claricle we see in Name of the Doctor telling Hartnell to take a different TARDIS?  As others have pointed out, that Claricle should be kicking around somewhere, right?  And she wouldn’t necessarily still look like Clara.

    #33949

    @drben

    Yes, I was thinking very much in terms of symbolism – a pointer, if you will – rather than a literal notion. Moffat likes his subtle signposts.

    #33950
    FlirtingDinosaur @flirtingdinosaur

    @drben I think the Doctor made the TARDIS go into siege mode. didn’t he say something along the line of “I was able to turn on the siege mode just before the train hit. but there’s not enough power to turn it of.” ?

    but I agree that the failing of the life support was due to the power loss, otherwise it’d be a pretty pointless mode

    #33951
    BadWulf @badwulf

    @flirtingdinosaur I think the Doctor made the TARDIS go into siege mode. didn’t he say something along the line of “I was able to turn on the siege mode just before the train hit. but there’s not enough power to turn it of.” ?

    but I agree that the failing of the life support was due to the power loss, otherwise it’d be a pretty pointless mode

    Yes – that was also my understanding. And the reason why he didn’t put the TARDIS into siege mode when he first found out it was on the tracks – he knew that if he put it into siege mode, then there might not be enough power to turn if off, hence why he was looking for an alternative solution. He only activated siege mode when there was only a split second to spare.

    #33968
    Enlighteneddespot @enlighteneddespot

    Hi everyone. I’m a frequent reader of the forum, but an (extremely) rare poster. I really enjoy your thoughts on the episodes, and have come to appreciate episodes which I initially disliked  after reading your collective analysis.

    A couple thoughts have come to me so I thought i’d share for once.

    I’m of two minds on Missy. It would be great fun if she were a new character, and that would make her actions difficult to predict. But I am also enjoying the thought of her being the Master. As I remember it (imperfectly no doubt) he was last seen flickering in and out of existence after having been brought back to life in a somewhat dodgy way. A ring and incantation wereinvolved I believe. Would he get a full Time Lord lifespan, including regenerations after this?  Maybe the flickering led to him being in the Nethersphere rather than the ordinary universe.

    There have been several episodes with artificial intelligence of unknown origin (Deep Breath, Robots of Sherwood, Mummy on the Orient Express.)  wouldn’t it be fun if these were the Master’s design?  I’m not quite clear why s/he’d want to reverse engineer the mummy, but the Master is a bit bonkers himself, no? And killing those on the train, whether successful or not, seems right up his alley.

    Clara is the other issue.  Can’t say that I have actual evidence for this, but I began wondering if she is artificial intelligence, maybe of the Master’s design.  A long game for sure.  But this could explain her initial lack of personality (for want of a better word).  After the preview of next week’s red riding hood motif, it struck me that maybe she’s a Pinocchio character with all the lying.  And given the excellent acting we’ve seen, wouldn’t her self-discovery be an incredible scene?  Very Blade Runner, finding out you’re a replicant.  It would also explain Missy’s ‘my Clara’.

    Bonkers enough for you?

     

     

     

     

    #33969
    Rob @rob

    @purofilion

    :p should have come out as a emoticon as a tongue sticking out… one I habitually  use a “I’m gently ribbing” sign, please use for future use : p

    My apologies if you misconstrued my meaning,

    That’s the truoble with written rotten writing , meaning can be lost etc

    <waves mug of coffee in friendly manner>

    #33972
    Anonymous @

    Oh all right then!!  you pedantic lot you! But now come on, the siege tardis and the pandorica look the same -would it be that metaphorical a thing? If so, I grant you that makes a good deal of sense. But I prefer my stasis cube thing/idea which is re-appearing and I’m sticking to it (last person gamely holding onto the life raft while others are yelling: “get orf you fool!”). I want to at least have  a bonkers theory….. (madly scrambling and now twitching) :p (I did it @rob thank you)

    Purofooling

    #33973
    Anonymous @

    @enlighteneddespot welcome ! Great name! Also a great theory. So we have Vastra the reptile and Clara the replicant. Uber cool.  @drben yes the idea as Clara being a later regen of timeclaricle persuading One to take ‘this Tardis’ is a good theory. I did think the claricles’ roles were ‘finished now’ or complete as others have suggested up thread but exactly how would they be at an end? Did they all die? We assume so (?) and then a TL can die without regenerating….But if not….?

    Kindest, purofilion

    #33979
    Anonymous @

    @drben – Great Bonkers Theory. I agree, the old evil Clara theories are even better now.

    TL Claracle Missy Theory:  Could she be a later regeneration of the Time Lord Claricle we see in Name of the Doctor telling Hartnell to take a different TARDIS?  As others have pointed out, that Claricle should be kicking around somewhere, right?  And she wouldn’t necessarily still look like Clara.

    (@Purofilion, @lisa, @bluesqueakpip, @mudlark, might be the others?)

    I like the idea that all the Claricles came back together into Clara when the Doctor pulled her out of the Time Stream. So to me that would mean they disappeared then? It helps explain why Clara seems like a whole person now.

    But if the Claricles didn’t disappear,

    The possible ones left that I can think of are:

    The obvious Bonkers: TL Claricle could be alive. Inside the paintings on Gallifrey still? Or someplace else if she escaped the Time War? That could be Missy, imo.

    The Bonkers: The Clara the Doctor left the Time Stream with was actually the TL Claricle (not the Clara that went in). That helps explain a lot of things we see about Clara now. How she clings to Tardis, snaps fingers to open doors, etc. That fits @mudlark’s ClaraPlus theory, but doesn’t fit Missy very much, unless Missy is a future old evil Clara?   

    The super Bonkers: TL Claricle followed the Doctor/Clara out of his Time Stream to escape? She could have been invisible (in the monster dimension), so he didn’t see her escape. She should look the same as Clara? So probably not Missy.

    The Dino Missy Bonkers: TL Claricle still exists on the first time line behind the Cracks in the Universe (nether sphere). If the Cracks in the Universe still exist?

    #33980
    Anonymous @

    @barnable the bonkers theories are amazing! I recall that moment when the heaven’s opened and the regen energy appeared. We assume the TLs were behind that crack and delivered the energy to the Doctor. But what did Clara receive? In the timestream had she collected some super-power? And I know I go on about this but “My name is Clara and I was born under a clock tower.” There was a tower in tTofD as well as clocks and tick-tocks in this series. She’s now ‘chosen’ -or as @scaryb said ‘could have always been chosen’ and yet only now hear Missy’s vindication of her choice. As Barnable said, she’s hanging onto Tardis’, using the sonic with relative ease (I mean she changes setting without changing settings if you know what I mean! – I remember Amy being asked by the Dr to follow the sound of the sonic “to hear when the vibration changed” -what Clara is doing seems intuitive almost or else just quick tele), snapping fingers and lying like the Dr does.

    What’s with the Dr’s number one rule: always use the enemy’s powers against them? I thought it was “the Doctor lies”. Unless of course, that was 11, now 12 doesn’t need to lie, which I’m sure IS valid, as he still needs to or certainly understands the need to lie -to a point. MMmm.

    Kindest, puro.

    #33981
    Anonymous @

    mm. I am changing my mind about the Doctor’s reappearance and taking on of the mantle. I liked the Doctor’s by now well known and arched eyebrows. His long wise nose giving him a profile with a forward tilt like a bas-relief on an ancient monument.

    In his speech, accepting the sonic, he’s like a saviour, naming these new monsters with gravitas and panache -like Augustus, but like this noble man he’s also worrying about his children and step-children; knowing Clara, for example, is like a pressure valve, breaking free powerful old forces, massing, strengthening until something fiery and new is reborn.

    She’s clever, cultivated and intelligent. Thus perhaps more repressed as a consequence of new forces working upon and shaping her- the more repressed she is the more she requires some method of channelling the primitive impulses she’s struggling hard to subdue.

    This Doctor is so bewitching and formidable that I found myself moving forward to listen to him as he approached the screen. This time, the TARDIS and Clara helped create an unconquerable confederation, a trinity of sorts.

    I liked that dawn of recognition as 12 steps out, more alert than ever, more still, calm and sure than he’s been before and any idea that this is an older man -too old, perhaps, is brushed away like a stray thought. There’s no creaky machinery, no cardboard cut-out of a Doctor; this is the real deal. And it happens when the TARDIS itself is back to normal: no more walls rushing outwards vertiginously and receding into infinity.

    All is restored. But we’re gently reminded that no matter who plays at being the doctor, it is he who is the permanent resident of outrageous discoveries -we’re just tourists coming along for the ride.

    And I want more!

    Kindest, puro

    #33982
    thommck @thommck

    Got to finally watch the episode last night and just caught up on all the great posts here.

    I actually loved this episode, it seemed so bizarre from the get-go I thought it would be really cheesey but, despite all the comedy, it actually managed to be really scary and unnerving. Great work by the Director I guess. Not to mention the writer and everyone else involved. I also heard this would be Doctor-lite but that wasn’t the case at all, he was very prominent (unlike in Blink).

    The look of the Boneless was definitely a great achievement. CGI is usually pretty awful in TV programmes but this was magnificent and really brought the monsters to life!

    boneless concept 

    One of the scarier scenes was when the PC got sucked into the carpet. Did anyone else notice her name was PC Forest!?

    Forest

    I was going to speak about the similarity between the Siege mode TARDIS and the Pandorica but @Purofilion wrapped my thoughts up well on that one

    I agree with @glenisterm that there seems to be a general acceptance of aliens now on Planet Earth. It’s quite refreshing that humans are aware they exist but life still carries on as normal. Even a trip on the TARDIS seems quite an acceptable thing to do, where I’m sure it used to be a lot more precious.

    If you haven’t looked at the writer’s, Jamie Mathieson, blog then I’d recommend a read. There is so much great insight into how the show is made and how the writer works with Moff. jamiemathieson.blogspot.co.uk. The writer also tweeted how Peter changed a few of his lines, such as the great one about the “TARDIS cracking the Earth” was originally “sink into the earth“. A great improvement to DW lore from Capaldi there I think.

    Me & the boys all noticed the Doctor’s hair suddenly became flattened (@Brewski) but we figured it was due to him pressing it up against the TARDIS’ mini-door. Perhaps the lack off life support also reduces hair gel powers!?

    In the Doctor Who Extra, Moff clearly points out that Clara is addicted

    Rigsy was an interesting character. I had an awful feeling he was going to reveal his real name was Richard Pink but thankfully that didn’t happen. He seemed a very troubled boy. I hope he got a bit of a confidence boost. I do wonder whether the Doctor would have saved Rigsy, or if the hairband was part of Clara’s individual approach to Doctorness.

    @scaryb It’s a “thing”/Thing. It was pure glee to watch that moment, especially seeing a new dance move for the Doctor after but I do wonder why they have so much emphasis on the actual word “thing” in this series. It seems to be mentioned in every episode. Is it just a contemporary phrase or something deeper?

    I have quite a bit to say on Missy ideas but I need to do a bit more research so will be back later. I’ll leave you with this pic from the ever-rewarding doctorwho.tumblr.com

    #33983
    DrBen @drben

    @barnable @purofilion You know, I was never satisfied with the end of Name of the Doctor.  Dickiebow finds Clara in his timestream, they see Grandpa, Dickiebow makes his little speech (“not in the name of the Doctor!”), credits.  I spent the months leading up to the 50th Anniversary assuming that Day of the Doctor would be about 11 and Clara trying to figure out how to get out of his timestream, and I was confused and a bit disappointed to see that that part was basically hand-waved away.

    In fact, I clung to that feeling so much that I formulated the Bonkers theory (before even meeting you fine people) that DotD had taken place entirely within the Doctor’s timestream (which to me was an explanation of bits of fan-service such as Potter’s Lane, Coal Hill School, Osgood’s scarf, etc. – I thought it was the Doctor’s timestream collapsing on itself a la Wedding of River Song), and that it was all about the Doctor replaying his guilt about burning Gallifrey, and that they would later escape his timestream and the Doctor would be motivated to figure out a way to go back and save Gallifrey.  But time went on (so to speak), and they returned to Trenzalore at Christmas, and figured that Moff had meant the end of NotD to convey simply that, once they found each other within the timestream, it was a cinch to get out again.  (Bit of a let-down, but I understand that they can only do so much in 44 minutes.)

    But what if that’s not the end of the story?  I love your theorizing — did all of the Claricles in fact come back together?  Did one escape?  Is TL Claricle out there somewhere?  Did 11 in fact pull the *right* Clara out of his timestream?  What if some part of her is still mucking about inside him, whining “I don’t know where I am”?  The mind boggles.

    #33984
    thommck @thommck

    I was putting together my Missy theories and it became more of a blog article! I’ll formulate it properly and send it to @craig to see if he fancies sticking it up.

    In the meantime, I’ll add a few of the juicy bits we get from her in this episode

    Why do people think this episode proves she is a baddie? The “evil” laugh? I didn’t particularly get that vibe from her yet, especially after the Doctor warns us not to be quick to judge the Boneless.

    The iPad Missy was using felt really odd to me. It is such an object of this time, right down to the protective cover it had. This makes me think Missy is now on 21st Century Earth. Either that, or she pinched it off one of her “visitors”!

    This also makes me think she could potentially have been the Woman in the Shop. If that is the same person that Clara says “So that’s who” when reading the Time War book it will mean the Doctor and Clara should both recognise her (unless she has changed appearance). If that link proves true then surely Missy is a Timelord?

    The fact Missy could view Clara live makes me think of the optic hack that Clara so readily put in her ear. Could that be Cyberman tech or just cyborg tech like Psi had (Into the Dalek). This links to all of the imagery of “eyes” that we’ve had this series (the close up of Half-Faced man’s eye, Clara’s eye shirt etc.) and the feeling of being watched (Listen, invisible watch)

    The circles in the background (@PhileasF) have also been spotted a lot this series (Orson’s Timeshot, Galiffreyan writing in general, Pi reference in Flatline), Perhaps that links with the eyes?

    Al this talk of eyes reminded me of a story where a man had something stuck in his eye that made him have horrible visions of everything. It reminded me of the “Sliver of Ice” that was described as being in the Doctor’s heart last series (Hide). In the story he ends up crying it out when his true love dies. This made me hunt it out and I believe I was thinking of the Snow Queen by Hans Christian Anderson. In fact, I have a funny feeling that it was mentioned by forumites last year? You can read the story in full here hca.gilead.org.il/snow_que.html, a few mentions of Demons and Heaven in the first section alone!

    #33985
    DrBen @drben

    @thommck Adding more fuel to your excellent fire.  Wasn’t the T-Rex in Deep Breath killed because of something desirable in the dinosaur’s optic nerve?  Doesn’t seem like such a throwaway in retrospect.

    #33986

    @drben

     to figure out how

    Doctor Who – the show, rather than the character – is almost never about the how. The why is always the important question and that was clearly explained in Name of the Doctor.

    #33987
    DrBen @drben

    @pedant – I agree that the show is generally about why rather than how (and yes, in retrospect it doesn’t matter how they escaped the Doctor’s timestream).  But still, we were told that jumping into someone’s timestream meant certain destruction, and jumping into one’s own timestream could erase your existence entirely.  So I found it a little jarring that it apparently turned out not to be that much of an issue.

    That said, it’s not important.  I bring it up merely as a conjecture for whether Clara was affected by the experience more than has been let on.

    #33988
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @thommck

    PerhapsI am imagining things, but in that last scene with Missy does the window/opening/symbol or whatever it is on the right resemble the shape of a cyberman’s eyehole.  Furthermore, in the circular opening to the left there is a slightly fuzzy small circular glowing thing – sun? planet? moon?

    On another topic, the reference to the weight of the Tardis delighted me, because that is something I have wondered about.  In The Mark of the Rani, I think it was, people were able to pick it up and move it about as if it were just a wooden box in fact as well as appearance.  Maybe it is something that has been explained before, but if so I missed it.

     

    #33989
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @mudlark

    Here is a shot of the TARDIS from the Hartnell-era story “Marco Polo”

    But I don’t think the issue of weight has been explained before (others might remember a specific reference, but I don’t).

    #33990
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @drben

    So I found it a little jarring that it apparently turned out not to be that much of an issue

    I keep saying this a lot, obviously because it is jarring and it does bug people – but it wasn’t the fault of the scriptwriters or production team. It was the fault of Matt Smith’s knee. 🙂

    Originally, the escape from the timestream in Name of The Doctor was supposed to be a dramatic and obvious leap for freedom. However, the dramatic and obvious leap for freedom would be with the Doctor carrying Clara. And involved, y’know, leaping.

    Which is impossible to do when your lead actor limps in on crutches. Really crutches. Really limping. Really unable to do anything involving leaping about without falling to the ground, accompanied by agonised screams.

    So they had to hurriedly rework it to a slight turn.

    Admittedly, it doesn’t work. But it was the best they could do. 😉

    #33991
    DrBen @drben

    @bluesqueakpip Ha!  I did not know that!  Curse you, Smithy’s knee!

    I did notice on a rewatch that they sort of crawl away at the end, which presumably is supposed to mean “getting the hell out of the timestream”, but I completely missed it the first time around.

    #33992
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @thommck

    In the Doctor Who Extra, Moff clearly points out that Clara is addicted

    Yeah, he does. However, he’s always said that he will lie to protect a plot twist. So – yeah, it could be that the plot is one of addiction. Or it could be that ‘addiction’ is the red herring.

    @drben – I think he could manage a slow crawl. 🙂

    #33995
    Anonymous @

    @thommck that was an extraordinarily excellent post!  All those links -Peter changing some words and lines and that tumblr picture -how lovely. I must check those links as I’m up early. @bluesqueakpip I keep forgetting the timestream ‘leap’ that didn’t happen due to the knee. I feel his pain!

    Kindest, puro

    #33996
    Anonymous @

    @thommck I read the wonderful article about the boneless reconstruction and the fact they started as slugs moving eventually as one ‘slug’ and then adapting.

    I remember a horrifying creature seen in Adelaide and Brisbane which I saw for the last time about 30 years ago: a moving collection of slug like creatures crawling together and moving at a slow but unnerving pace. The slug creatures, together, were about five feet long and four ft wide (each one was fairly small) and unfortunately the only way to kill them was to ..ah..throw kerosene over them and you know…end them. They ate everything in sight:  imagine that animal(s) crawling up your body !! -they would venture up trees, across paths and grass, down the banana plant we had…never have I forgotten this and I haven’t seen them (or it) since.

    Shivering…puro.

    #33998
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @Purofilion So sorry you are in hospital again – solidarity

    This Doctor is so bewitching and formidable that I found myself moving forward to listen to him as he approached the screen.

    Yes, he is – Capaldi’s performance is wonderful, because it is a fire burning under restraint. He is so skilled that he doesn’t need to be fireworks, he can be the slow burning fuse at the heart of something – layered and volcanic.

     

     

     

    #33999
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @Purofilion

    I remember a horrifying creature seen in Adelaide and Brisbane which I saw for the last time about 30 years ago: a moving collection of slug like creatures crawling together and moving at a slow but unnerving pace. The slug creatures, together, were about five feet long and four ft wide (each one was fairly small)

    I used to work in an academic department with a faction that just like that…

    Which is one of the reasons I have always liked Doctor Who–it is so unlike real life and good always triumphs in the end!

    #34000
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    I used to work in an academic department with a faction that just like that…

    Lol – oh yes, the slime-ademics – hideous beasties often encountered crawling the corridors of the ivory tower 🙂

    #34002
    Anonymous @

    @glenisterm – I’ve thought about your posts some more. Sorry again for saying they were pointless and stupid. I have never tried watching DW with a skeptical eye, so I can’t say that isn’t a fun way to watch the show. It might be a great way to watch it, since you have been a fan for so long.

     About the DMH – I think we can agree that @pedant’s explanation is correct on that, an older model train. The way I watch DW, I’m fine until the train has a steering wheel. That would be too much even for me, but I would still try to explain it somehow. That explains why you knew that there was a possible problem and I just thought you were making outlandish nitpicks. But now I know it’s good that there are smart people like you that notice things like that and keep DW on its toes.

     About the Tardis ride – I have made similar complaints about Tardis rides (Nightmare in Silver), so I can understand your point that it bothered you. However, just image the people asking 12 for a ride, and the Doctor telling them to take the stairs, followed by 12 saying to Clara “goodness has nothing to do with it”; that might have changed the meaning?

    So your question is worth thinking about.

     About the Claricles – I know now there is a possible TL Claricle still running around. So a multiple Claras episode could happen. I would love to see Jenna Coleman play an evil Clara. Jenna is a very good actor, I’m sure she could pull it off. So you are right again, that would be awesome!

     So your post was just the illusion of being wrong. And now I’m hypnotized or something, arguing against myself? WTFH?!?

    Please tell me you don’t wear a Top Hat like HFM or Whispermen too. 😮

    <Fingers crossed> I’m never arguing with a magician again!

     Seriously I was definitely wrong,

    Apologies, Barnable

    #34004
    Anonymous @

    @arbutus

    Now off to read what everyone made of the last moments of that. Clara, my Clara?!?

    The Doctor in “Deep Breath”, says “Captain, my captain” when he first sees the HFM. I googled that and here is what I found.

    If you replace Captain in this poem, with Doctor or Clara, and imagine the other one saying it, then I think it will be a huge tear jerker.

    O Captain! My Captain! our fearful trip is done;
    The ship has weather’d every rack, the prize we sought is won;
    The port is near, the bells I hear, the people all exulting,
    While follow eyes the steady keel, the vessel grim and daring:

    But O heart! heart! heart!

    O the bleeding drops of red,

    Where on the deck my Captain lies,

    Fallen cold and dead.

     Clara seems like she is almost finished with her TL training. So my theory is the Doctor will die and become Missy’s boyfriend, and Clara becomes the new Doctor. That fits Missy’s boyfriend line.. .

    Missy also says, “I’m so glad I chose you,” line about Clara.

    I didn’t know how both lines can be true at the same time? Until Purofilion’s post about Clara possibly getting RE in the Trenzalor CT from Missy? That makes it work.

     The theory makes sense and the evidence all fits, so why do I think this is heading for the Dino pile? Argh! SM 😡

    @thommck – I read the Jamie Mathieson blog (TY for the link). I was surprised he was a stand up comic. And he gave a lot of credit to SM, so I don’t have to readjust my Moffat Mad Man theories too much. I was worried about spoilers, but didn’t notice any, so it was very good to read. Your posts have been some of the best this season. Much appreciated. 🙂

    Now if @wolfweed comes back the forum will be overloaded with stuff.

    @Purofilion – <shakes fist> Get better. I finally fit your Clock Tower in a theory.  🙂

    #34005
    Ixion @ixion

    Hi! New here. I made an account because I noticed something interesting and I wanted to know if anyone else saw it, or if it’s even relevant. When the group is trying to figure out how to communicate using mathematics, the Boneless reply first with the number 55 and then with the number 22. Right before George gets flattened, we see behind him some large yellow numbers: 20 and 55. At first I was wondering if the Boneless were just trying to show that they could read, which would explain them replying with the number 55, but the theory comes up against a wall when trying to explain the number 22. Also, it doesn’t exactly help to explain why the Boneless are flattening people. Do you guys think this is relevant at all, or was it just a coincidence?

    #34007
    Anonymous @

    @juniperfish

    “Capaldi’s performance is wonderful, because it is a fire burning under restraint. He is so skilled that he doesn’t need to be fireworks, he can be the slow burning fuse at the heart of something – layered and volcanic.”

    Beautifully put as always by you.

    I am looking at the still image of Missy in her ‘cavern’ and see a railing behind her -much like a TARDIS railing. This makes me wonder, again, as to her location and identity.

    I wonder too about Missy as Master and again the connection with Dr Faustus -Marlowe’s version  (Kind Kit Marlowe?):

    “I think the Master shortly wishes to die for he hath given me all his goods” Is the Mistress collecting people as goods?

    If Clara should be an echo of herself (doubtful now with Missy’s most recent sentence) then Faustus entering the court of the emperor saying: “in faith he looks much like a conjurer” suggests the double life she may be leading as some kind of ClariclePlus to which @mudlark referred -or doing so unknowingly.

    Without too much gushing I thought this was, on balance, one of the best Doctor Who episodes I’ve ever seen. The quality of all the characters and actors was so high grade; the wonderful balance between Clara the Doctor and the Doctor Doctor -with marvellous comedic back and forth together with sombre realisations (particularly by Peter) of the deaths which occurred and of Clara’s (misplaced but unavoidable) ‘chipper’ personality made the sun come out and for once, our little family actually applauded: “Now, he is the Doctor” said Mr Ilion.

    You betcha.

    #34008
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @jimbomcmaster

    In reply to your 1,399 word essay…
    😉

    but really it’s the information the Captain’s vision of the Mummy can reveal to the other scientists (eg that the Mummy can teleport) that makes his last 66 seconds an example of the Bad rather than the Worse, as it’s that information that will save lives … A killing that does not contribute to the scientists’ knowledge is Worse than one that does.

    Here, I think you’re imposing your moral values on Steven Moffat’s moral values. Obviously, there’s a large dose of ‘whatever they are’, but in this case he writes a fairly consistent view. Being killed is not the Worst thing that can happen to you. You are, after all, going to die anyway – as River says, everybody knows that everybody dies. You can still beat the monster even as it kills you.

    In the case of Prof. Moorhouse, the Doctor gives him an opportunity to die as a scientist. In the case of the Captain, he dies as a soldier – and like a good soldier, he knows how important it is to keep relaying vital strategic information up to the moment of his death.

    Maisie’s non-death actually gives no information to the scientists; the Doctor wants her to try and feel her trauma so he can transfer it to trap the Mummy. He wants her to be able to use it, not be used by it. And, as I’ve said before, he takes a few seconds out to tell her that she was right; it wasn’t all in her mind.

    So information isn’t the common denominator; the common denominator is not letting whatever-it-is defeat you. Even if it kills you…

    The fact that the Doctor very rarely goes back to change his past should tell us that he doesn’t have the option to do that,

    Okay, this is devastating logic time. Logically, the fact that the Doctor very rarely goes back to change his past should tell us that he DOES have the option to do that. It is, however, normally the Worst option. As @scaryb pointed out, he did do it all by himself in The Movie That We Do Not Mention. This was probably due to regeneration trauma, a.k.a. a really bad script.

    I have done a blog post on this very thing. While someone dying before their time is Bad, it pales in comparison with Churchill on a Mammoth.

    If, on the other hand, someone dying before their time is taking place in a general atmosphere of the whole universe ceasing to exist, the Doctor will put on a fez, grab a mop, go back on his own timeline and hand Rory the Sonic. Of course, by that point he knows that he has gone back on his own time line, but he’s still going back to create the Moffat loop.

    The Doctor never has to follow the rules. He simply decides when he’s going to. As you say – mostly, he does. But he chooses when to follow them and when to break them.

    he is only able to change his past because, as a result of the Moment’s interference

    You’re right in that one, very specific case. That’s probably because the events concerned are Time Locked. Note that the Tennant Doctor is shocked that the Hurt Doctor can be there; but while the Davison Doctor was a bit puzzled at meeting a future incarnation (in Time Crash), he wasn’t shocked. Later, the Tennant Doctor comments that they shouldn’t be able to go to Gallifrey at the moment of The Moment. So, given that the Doctor does change past events in many other cases, the Moment was needed for that particular problem.

    Can he just decide to go on a visit to his past self? Dunno. I suspect the reason that it’s normally arranged by Time Lords is because of the potential paradoxes; it’s probably considered both dangerous and a bit embarrassing. I mean, would you really want to go back and have a chat with your younger self? Especially if those younger selves are already living in your head…

    But being depressed about an act you committed is not the same as thinking you did the wrong thing.

    But that’s what the Doctor says. In The Day of The The Doctor:

    Tennant Doctor: Because what I did that day was wrong. Just wrong.

    So he fairly obviously does think he did the wrong thing.

    Did we believe he had committed a terrible, cruel, unforgivable act? I never got the impression any of us did.

    ::ahem::
    Well, in another of my blogs

    That means the hero of the show is someone who’s done something only God could forgive; and he doesn’t even believe in God

    I agree that RTD didn’t think so. RTD’s moral view (caveat: whatever they are) seems to come across as utilitarian ‘greatest good of greatest number’. Destroying Gallifrey would be forgiveable if the alternative was destroying the universe. In fact, your view is probably very close to RTD’s view.

    Steven Moffat’s view appears to be that the killing of a three year old kid who’s clutching his teddy bear (multiplied by 2.7 billion) is and always will be wrong. Just wrong.

    that does not mean that he thought it was a mistake to do it.

    Oh, he didn’t think it was a mistake. He just thought it was wrong.

    out of the blue, another option which he never even conceived would or could be available suddenly is available

    Out of The Moment, actually. She worked really hard to get him to see the alternative.

    You’re probably thinking ‘what about Clara’s part in all this?

    Actually, I have a fair idea what Clara’s point is in all this, because it’s spelled out in The Day of the Daleks (note similarity in titles, but I won’t go into details in case you haven’t seen it) and helpfully given an annotation in Time of The Doctor.

    Tennant Doctor: You’re not actually suggesting that we change our own personal history?
    Smith Doctor: We change history all the time.

    He has to choose a Bad option, turning the Boneless back to 2D,

    No. HE didn’t choose the Bad option. The Boneless chose the bad option. They are the moral actors in this; had they chosen a good option the Doctor would have helped them. They chose to be monsters. They are the ones who made a moral choice – to kill and to keep killing – from that point on, the only good choice available to a moral actor is stopping them killing more people.

    The choice, which the Doctor spells out, is that if you choose to become a monster, the Doctor will choose to become the man who stops the monsters.

    in order to save people who maybe don’t even deserve it,

    I hate to point this out, but last time I looked being a graffiti artist – or even a nasty minded bully – was not something that deserved the death penalty. None of those people deserved to die; it’s just that some who survived were less deserving than those who died.

    If the Doctor got to choose who survived, he’d probably have chosen a different set – but maybe it’s a good thing for his remaining sanity that he can’t play God like that. 😉

    #34011
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @bluesqueakpip

    That means the hero of the show is someone who’s done something only God could forgive; and he doesn’t even believe in God

    “I agree that RTD didn’t think so. RTD’s moral view (caveat: whatever they are) seems to come across as utilitarian ‘greatest good of greatest number’. Destroying Gallifrey would be forgiveable if the alternative was destroying the universe.”

    Interested to know what makes you think that this was RTD’s moral view. I always thought that the great story of the Nu Who reboot was that RTD very boldly made the Doctor responsible for genocide right at the start, not as something justifiable, but as a terrible weight lying over the Doctor’s hearts.  But, narratively, he always left it in the background (because it was pretty dark for what is billed as a kids’ show right off the bat) at least until The End of Time. So, the enormity of the Doctor’s choice (and crime) was hinted at every now and again, as when in The Impossible Planet/ The Satan Pit, the Beast taunts the Doctor as “the killer of his own kind” or when Davros in Journey’s End taunts him as “The man who keeps running. Never looking back. Because he dare not out of shame.”

    The End of Time gave us a glimpse of the choice – the end of the universe or the destruction of Gallifrey, but I don’t think it forgave or justified the Doctor in a utilitarian manner – it left us, the audience, to forgive him if we wanted to – but we saw clearly, as we have seen through each incarnation from Ecclestone to Capaldi, that the Doctor did not, and does not, forgive himself. The Doctor is not a utilitarian and RTD did not write him as one.

     

    #34012
    thommck @thommck

    @drben, I forgot about the special dino Optic-nerve, good connection!

    @mudlark, I suppose the “window” behind Missy does look like the newer style Cyberman eyes. Perhaps she has been miniaturised into a cyberman (just like the Doctor in Into the Dalek)

    @ixion I noticed those numbers on the wall and also thought it was to show how the boneless could read. Not sure if that was deliberate mis-direction or just a badly placed prop!?

    @bluesqueakpip, Of course, I forget Moffat is such a bare-faced liar! He’d sell his own grandmother to throw us off a plot!

    @barnable Glad you enjoyed the links, I must admit I am trying to inject a bit more @wolfweed-iness into my posts as I’m missing his absence myself!

    @purofilion those slugs sounds very creepy, sent a shiver down my spine. A shame you had to resort to kerosene and couldn’t zap them back to there own hellish dimension from whence they came! Reminds me of an interesting (and creepy) fact I learnt in a QI episode about how caterpillars move faster as a group

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