Flatline

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  • #33859
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @oblique   I think that different aspects of DW speak to us all differently, depending on who we are. I’ve always watched DW on my own, as it is not my son’s or husband’s “thing”… they are WAY too realistic-science minded to enjoy it. But I have always watched with a certain childlike glee that warms more to the quirks than to the chills (although I enjoy the scary bits too!). It helps that I discovered the show during the later Tom Baker era; I have mentioned elsewhere that City of Death was my intro to Who, so you can see where I’m coming from.   🙂

    #33860
    soundworld @soundworld

    @scaryb Thanks for the link to Mathieson’s blog.  I thought the way they referenced Holbein’s skull in the episode was great, and scary.  Also thanks for noticing the Abbott estate – that had passed me by, I tend to look out for the details on a rewatch, which I’m due this evening hopefully.  Regaining health is a long-term plan –  ’nuff said!  I think it was remarked on this forum last season though, how life’s experiences, and what we make of them, hopefully act to develop our empathy and compassion and make us better Human Beings.  Best not bring in notions of ‘goodness’ however!

    #33861
    Serahni @serahni

    So I tried to scroll through all the comments on my phone and nothing much has sunk in.  I apologise if I wind up repeating anything that’s already been said, I had a super hectic weekend that culminated in taking a 5-year-old and a 9-year-old to meet Jenna yesterday.

    Yes, I met Jenna Coleman.

    Which is to say, two little blonde pixies wearing Doctor Who t-shirts charmed her whilst I tried to pacify the greasy, squirming 2-year-old that wanted nothing to do with being held.  Not my finest hour but it was all over very fast as it so often is during these photo sessions and, thankfully, I didn’t actually go IN with them, their father did.  So when I say I met Jenna, I was standing two metres away from her at one point but she was behind a curtain.  That counts, right?

    Then we went to take our own photos beside the TARDIS and a smaller TARDIS that didn’t make sense until last night’s episode!  Yes, they also had the first of the smaller TARDIS’ from ‘Flatline’, the very first one they climb out of.  Plus a K9, a Pandorica and a scarf amongst other things.  My little Whovians were satiated.

    Now, onto bonkers theorising!  My brain is still processing stuff but it did occur to me that there is a very strong case now for Missy being Gus, which I am SURE has already been mentioned and discussed.  We never found out who was the mastermind in the Orient Express episode but we did find out that ‘Gus’ had been trying to entice The Doctor in before, up to and including calling him on the TARDIS phone.  (Which is apparently very difficult to do.)  Who else is better qualified, therefore, to have given Clara that exact same phone number later on?  (Or earlier on, as the case may be.)  Now that it seems more and more likely that Missy is the Woman In The Shop, I wonder if she has not been present in all episodes, even the ones without a direct reference, and if The Doctor himself isn’t more aware that someone is meddling, hence all his scribblings and such.  I wouldn’t even put it past this incarnation to be using Clara, in a sense, to try and draw out this mystery manipulator.  Don’t get me wrong, I have no doubt he cares about her greatly, but he’s been very ‘means to an end’ so far and he really does seem to be training her up for something.  Again, I hark back to earlier statements I’ve made about The Doctor either knowing or at least sensing that ‘Something’ is coming.

    And a good soldier prepares for war carefully.

    #33863
    BadWulf @badwulf

    With all the TARDIS resizing, I’m reminded of the denouement of the Time Meddler:

    http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/File:A_Surprise_for_the_Monk_-_Doctor_Who_-_The_Time_Meddler_-_BBC

    #33864
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @fatmaninabox

    That said, I seem to remember theories from Series 7b that Clara may have been adopted.

    ‘Twas me. It’s based around the point that the standard ‘birth to childhood’ montage includes The Joyful Hospital Scene, with an Exhausted But Happy Mum Cradling Baby with Proud Dad. Whereas, Baby Clara is seen at home, with Mum looking on lovingly through the door as Dad picks her up and cradles her. It’s a bit non-standard – and the way the two actors are positioned almost implies that Mum is delighted that Dad’s bonding with the several weeks old baby.

    Now it could just be that the writer felt they’d throw up if they had to do yet another The Joyful Hospital Scene, and decided to vary it a bit by doing Baby Clara At Home. 😉 But the fact that we first see Clara as a baby at home (and never see Mum with Bump) would also fit an adoption.

    As, indeed, would the Doctor’s odd conviction that Clara could have easily been in a Children’s Home in Bristol and just doesn’t remember it…

    #33865
    Serahni @serahni

    @bluesqueakpip  I’ve often wondered if she was adopted too.  Clara seemed to be reasonably old when her mother died, she was probably at least 8 or 9 during that swing scene featurette and her mother was still alive then.  I always wondered if it was intentional, therefore, that she was an only child.  Of course, if her mother was ill with a slow killer then that could also account for it, but her mother’s illness could also have kept her from having children at all.  (Did we ever find out what she died from?)

    The only part about the theory that bugged me was that The Doctor spent so much time obsessing, so much time investigating, so much time practically stalking Clara through her timeline that it seems really, really weird he didn’t go back to confirm the actual pregnancy. Did he and it wasn’t shown?  Does he know more about her origins than we realise?  If so, why didn’t that fuel his suspicion back when she was The Impossible Girl?  So many questions!

    #33866
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    First impressions–after which I will go back and read everyone’s posts.

    Lots of excitement, great monsters, a whiny council employee who was even more annoying than Dr Smith on “Lost in Space” (didn’t you just want to chuck him to the monsters…?), and an episode that reminded me a lot of an episode of “ST: Next Generation” (particularly the way the story revolves around correcting something going wrong with the TARDIS–just as something usually went wrong with either the Holodeck or the Transporter on the Enterprise. Indeed, the TARDIS seems to be just a machine in this one–lacking any life or personality of its own.

    I thought they handled Clara’s challenge quite well–particularly at the end, where she realises that being a Doctor is about responsibility and not accolades and fun. In fact, it continues what this series has shown in relation to Clara–that she is being prepared for something bigger than simply being a companion.

    At to what that might be…well, I think the jury is still out of that one. It could be preparation for parenthood, it could be that she is being primed as a weapon by Missy (although I don’t see that), or it could be that she has…a destiny. One idea that I have decided to revive is something I felt when she had her first adventures with 11–that she is the Doctor’s daughter. The way that 12 interacted with her (and she with him) in “Listen” and in this episode would fit with that, I think.

    As for Missy at the end of the episode–if she chose Clara, then was she the woman in the shop? And would that fit with my idea about Clara being the Doctor’s daughter? Hmm, maybe not. But on the other hand…

    More thought required. Fortunately, twilight is approaching. Perhaps a Shiraz is called for.

    #33868
    LordLord @lordlord

    This episode was all about proving that Clara take on the role of “The Doctor” if she wanted to.

    What if Missy choose her as a replacement for The Doctor?

    Also, The Next Episode is a obvious reference to “Little Red Riding Hood”, with the wolf/alien, forest setting, and the little girl with a red jacket.

    #33869
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @lisa and @robertdaller brought up the idea that Missy was the Woman in the Shop, and after this latest glimpse of Missy and her ‘My Clara …I have chosen well‘, I agree that it looks as if we are being pointed in that direction!  Certainly Missy or someone acting as her agent would fit the part, according to what we know so far.  In fact I am beginning to suspect something like a Madame Kovarian scenario here, although I am reluctant to think so, because we have already ‘been there, done that’.  But if she ‘chose’ Clara for a purpose, in order to ‘plant’ her on the TARDIS, as @juniperfish put it, presumably she did so well before the events of the Bells of St John, perhaps when Clara was a young child, and shaped her for that purpose, if more subtly than Madame K and the Silence did with River.  Even after the revelations in The Name of the Doctor, there is still much about Clara and her early life that hasn’t been fully explained.   Throughout Series 7 she seemed little more than a cipher or plot device as many people have noted,-  ‘too perfect’ as @Bluequeakpip said;  it was only after the Doctor brought her back out of his time line that she began to develop more fully as a character in her own right, as if all the claricles had reintegrated to form a whole person, finally.  And if Missy did choose her before she first encountered the Doctor, was that leap into the Doctor’s timeline part of what Missy intended, or incidental to her purpose?

    What does seem to be going according to Missy’s plan is the way Clara is starting to act like the Doctor.  @lisa , I think it was, suggested that the Doctor was training her to be more like him, but I got a very strong impression to the contrary – that he is dismayed at the results of his influence on her.   Clara says ‘ …I was the Doctor, and I was Good’  and he responds ‘ You were an exceptional Doctor; goodness had nothing to do with it’@soundworld debated the meaning of goodness in this context, but Clara and the Doctor were clearly using the word ‘good ‘ in two different senses – Clara meaning  ‘competent’ , ‘possessing all the necessary qualities to be effective’, just as the Doctor had used the word earlier, when he wasn’t sure she could hear him. (It was also the sense in which Rusty the defective Dalek had used it when he described the Doctor as a ‘good Dalek’).  But when the Doctor says ‘… goodness had nothing to do with it’ he was referring to moral excellence or rightness, a quality which he clearly believes he does not possess, and which he does not think Clara possesses when she emulates him.

    Think back to A Good Man Goes to War:  he says  ‘Good men don’t need rules; today is not the day to find out why I have so many’.  And in Into the Dalek, perhaps while still in a state of slight confusion about his post-regeneration identity, he asks ‘… am I a good man?‘  to which Clara can only reply  ‘I don’t know’.    He knows himself to be morally compromised, as any soldier must be who has been in combat, however righteous his cause.  He no longer has the deaths of the children of Gallifrey on his conscience, but he has nevertheless been responsible, directly or indirectly, for the deaths of or damage to many people because, as has been discussed earlier in this thread, sometimes there are no good choices and damage is inevitable.

     

    #33870
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Right just had a really bizarre thought. This is in part stimulated by various others comments and probably a really twisted bonkers thought could Clara actually may be a biological embodiment of a tardis. There are a few things that bought this thought about.

    1. The doctors tardis’s reaction to Clara initially.

    2. Clara’s ability to leap into the doctors time stream.

    3. The fact that Clara was was able to survive on the outside the TARDIS in the time vortex.

    4 the recent discussion on one of the previous episodes threads about the acceptance/inclusion of some of the book who as part of the cannon of the show which may include sentient Tardis.
    As I say this theory is proberly super impossible bonkers but I thought I would share it for consideration and comment….

    #33871
    lisa @lisa

    @blenkinsopthebrave – I think the first big lie Clara ever told was in DotDoctor when she told us her story was done
    I always found it amazing that 1 of the claricles was a “Galifreyan” who told the first Doctor which Tardis to steal -was she there in training to be a TimeLady ?
    She is a souffle girl [which is a complicated recipe] The doctor investigated her and realized she has had as many lives as any Timelord and that She IS something new
    There might possibly be a DNA connection and that might have been the reason for the Doctor rescuing Clara from his Time stream? Going into the time stream might have changed her [similar to the way River was conceived]
    In any case he definitely feels Clara has a special destiny because of her special past
    If Missy has been tracking Clara all along she knows about the claricles too
    When Missy says ‘my Clara’ it sounds to me a bit like a Dominatrix planning who knows what – but like the Doctor she sees Clara as something special

    #33873
    Anonymous @

    I want to thank the kind ppl who said “hope you feel better”. I probably shouldn’t have mentioned the hobspital at all -I’m in there a lot with the annoying Crohns Disease and a few issues brought on by the same. Nonetheless, thank you for the kind words and if I’ve missed someone clock me on the head in the R & Crown and I’ll buy you drinks; @bluesqueakpip @juniperfish @soundworld @arbutus @barnable @scaryb  @idiotsavon and all.

    I adored the episode on re-watch and feel so many ppl have posted such great interpretations there is nothing I can add. The interesting info from @pedant and bluesqueak about trains and also from those who know Pelham 123 (I have always adored that film as I adore Matthau in that role where he’s talking to the Japanese members of the transport authority) was fascinating. An older train would have to be used here for the DMH to work with Clara’s ‘favourite hair band’ -even there she’s mimicking the dr’s occasionally dry approach to the conclusion of a major event.

    I also agree with @oblique about sales of mini tardis’ this Christmas and in siege mode? I want one too -a paper weight or an object d’art sitting under light??

    Yes I was probably a bit under the weather explaining the edgy and dark concept -p’rhaps I’ve seen a bit too much dark tele and after a while oblique it gives me indigestion -so this is a problem with me. Admittedly,  the creepy quality of the people in the walls reminded me of the episode with Tennant and the marvellous ‘woman in the wires’: ‘are we sitting comfortably?’. There she sucked out their faces and kept them in a TV screen. Here, they are disembodied and learning – the ‘painting’ on the wall which wasn’t art but our own nervous system -missing the nephrology part I think – was certainly disturbing and the way the ‘creature’ moved up the walls to attack Clara and Rigsby was incredibly nerve-wracking. 12 yr old backed off and hid under covers.

    Now he’s seen some scary TV -but the violence makes one disassociated; in this case it was very hysteria-inducing. Had it been done more in the late afternoon or even night? Could that make the edginess sufficiently freaky, Oblique, or were you looking for something else? I noticed your ‘finger buffet’ comment! Could you elaborate on what you would have liked to see more of/less of??  Are you a writer, yourself? As to the bonkers theorising it’s really into the stratosphere now! Missy as Tardis, Clara as a Tardis even? Missy as Clara’s mum (maybe not) but Clara as the Dr’s daughter?  which I think @blenkinsopthebrave mentioned is great. Is she separate to Jenny?

    Also the chalkboard, I’ve always thought it wasn’t the dr working out the Gallifreyan mystery but possibly figuring out Clara. His ‘inability’ to think Orson was similar to Dan isn’t a mistake as some people assume the Dr can’t be ‘on game’ as he’s making too many ‘errors’. I don’t believe he’s making any at all (or few -and these are emotional range errors in any case). He’s clocked in Clara as something odd still, as @serahni has explained: she’s up to something (& she doesn’t know it) or is a lure (to a river monster 🙂 ) for Missy or the WitS and the Dr has a limited amount of time to figure it out before Hell (or the portents) break lose like some Supernatural episode (yes, it’s an awful vice).

    I too have thought along the lines of @devilishrobby that  Clara hanging on to the Tardis and surviving and saying only “I’m cold” suggests a more impregnable person (no pun there). I think the reference ‘I was born under a clock tower’ indicates that perhaps she was re-born under that clock tower with 11 on trenzalore herself. Therefore to what extent is she a time-lord?  She’s a marvellously ‘exceptional’ doctor but isn’t ‘cooked’ yet?? After the claricles completed their job was she reborn into another being, re-atomised with the help of Missy and the timelords or as @barnable and others state, was the Moment responsible for the extra regens? Did she get some too? She seems to survive despite difficult situations (all those travels with the dr we saw in parts- running, being tied up on a red, dry planet) and appears to be manipulated by this Missy person who seems to enjoy the odd Greek Roman and Egyptian myths and legends -well, I do, really!

    Off to work -about an hour late but it’s a Pupil Free Day for planning and is therefore considered one of the best days of the year. Forgive the typos. I have an amazing sense of de ja vous at the mo -about this series. Dunno why, just is!  Cheer all, puro

     

    #33874
    Arbutus @arbutus

    So, as we now know that Missy’s plan seems to involve Clara, I am reminded of her (Missy’s) seeming anxiety at the end of The Caretaker. Could that have been because it seemed possible for the first time that Clara’s growing involvement with Danny might take her away from the TARDIS, and away from Missy’s plotting?

    @purofilion     A Pupil Free Day! How marvelous that they actually call it that.  🙂  Otherwise known, of course, as a School Free Day (to the kids). At my son’s high school they have, among other things, an hour of planning once a month, which for reasons unknown to me is called “HIP Day”, and school starts an hour later. My son LOVES this! An extra hour in bed.  🙂

    #33879
    janetteB @janetteb

    Have just finished second watch of Flatline and decided to comment before i read the other posts otherwise I might not get to post until tomorrow, and I wanted to express my thoughts before they become clouded, so apologies for repeating anything that has already been said.

    Another excellent episode. Thus far there has not been one “week” episode this series IMHO (I know of others who would dispute that claim.) Though not every episode will please everyone, (I am obviously just easily pleased, when it come to Dr Who at least) they have all had their strenghts. Robot of Sherwood was saved by its humour and Kill the Moon by its exploration of morality. So to Flatliner.

    An interesting concept which did admittedly turn to more conventional fare, the zombie story but as always the real drama was with the Doctor, really on roll now, and Clara. I think the Doctor has now firmly established to himself at least, that he is a good man. He has grown into his newly regenerated skin, as it were. Clara, on the otherhand, is become less certain of who she is. The more confident and braggardy (new word but kind of like it), she appears the less strong she really is. Clara is “acting”. Often in this episode she was outright annoying. The Doctor call her out on lying. The reaction to the lies told at the end of the last episode which so many of us objected to, played out through this story and I suspect that is a theme that has a long way further to go. There will be bigger consequences than her loosing the Doctor’s respect.

    The Doctor makes his ethical stance clear in this episode. It was almost as though the script writer had popped into the future, read the posts about the episode preceeding this one and then addressed the concerns raised in his script. I look forward to rewatching the entire series and seeing all the various themes developing.

    On arc references, it would seem that Missy was the woman in the shop. I am still hoping that is a misdiretion. Is Missy in come way connected to Clara’s personality changes? I once speculated that she was an implant in Clara’s head. It would seem that she is rather more corporeal than that given that she has access to modern tech. Maybe she is dimension hopping or jumping universes but it looks as though she has a physical presence in the “here and now”. Does she have implants in Clara or the Doctor? The image on the tablet appears to be from the Doctor’s perspective.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #33881
    capriella @capriella

    What happened to this season being ‘darker’ and having the doctor fix mistakes he made in the past?  I haven’t seen any of that happen.  The episodes haven’t been dark at all.  The story lines have been weak, and superficial, and there’s been nothing about the doctor’s past, except for the episode where he created a whole psychotic fear about the monster under the bed, which turned out to be Clara.  I was expecting more depth, and more info about the doctor, not episode after episode about Clara.

    #33882
    janetteB @janetteb

    I have read through page one and made some many notes that I thought I would clear them before embarking on page two.

    @bluesqueakpip Re post 33742 Excellent comment about the Doctor’s “defining” moment. I felt by “Mummy” that he was the Doctor but here he announces it. It was well done. Oh and also congratulations for the Graun status.

    @Purofilion I agree totally with you re’ the use of the term “edgy.” It has long since become an overused and meaningless term used to sound clever but signifying nothing.

    @idiotsavon re post 33781 I think Clara is simply trying to self justify her lies there.

    @scaryb Re post 33783 I agree with your view on Danny. I think he will turn out to be a “goodun”. Clara is implying that he is controlling in order to justify her own actions. She is doing a lot of self justifying and her question at the end refects, I think, her own guilt and inner anxiety about her behaviour. I suspect that in the end the Doctor and Danny will team up to save her or at least, to seek for her and that is possibly where Orson comes into it as I suspect he might well be a clone of Danny’s. All digits crossed that we will re-encounter the toy soldier.

    And a random comment, Clara’s Hermione Grange- like handbag reminded me of Tom Baker’s infinte pockets.

    Now for page two… 🙂

    Cheers

    Janette

     

    #33883
    lisa @lisa

    I have a hunch that Missy is a previous companion of the Doctors- maybe from 1 of the audio stories or comics ??
    To my mind that explains how she might still be inter-connected with the Tardis and could be watching Clara
    Also it would explain how she might be able to refer to the Doctor as her boyfriend ?
    Perhaps Seb also was a previous companion
    Also came across the fact that there are different kinds of Cybermen – the wall behind Missy showed what
    looks like cybermen iconography – I was just wondering if its possible that this Missy arc has its roots in previous Doctor adventures ?

    #33884
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @fatmaninabox Love your idea that the equations are the calculations for moving Gallifrey in Day of the Doctor. (All the others have the sonic working on it in the background – 12 goes for the blackboard 🙂 )

    @barnable (are you back to Barnable, I get so confused!! 😉 ) That really was a note to myself, but kudos to you for ‘fessing up if you think it applied to you. Your Timelord in training theory re Clara looks a lot less bonkers after this week. (I’m not quite jumping on it just yet though).

    @lisa There are lots of different kinds of cybermen. Could be lots more out there that we don’t know about 😈

    @blenkinsopthebrave Clara as the Doctor’s daughter – not really convinced, but I love it anyway.

    @janetteb I think Missy is definitely corporeal, and yes that image at the end does look very much like the Doctor’s POV.  Her “Clara, my Clara” comment keeps sticking in my mind. The other person we’ve heard say that was Eleven… so is she… (dun dun dun!)… the Valeyard? (not original idea, and not one I’m particularly fond of,  for all sorts of reasons, but it’s niggling me). The other “evidence” is her wardrobe – seems very reminiscent of Smithy’s purple jacket.  Agh! I miss @wolfweed‘s photographicy research skills. (In fact I just miss @wolfweed 😥 – hope he comes back soon). The Doctor’s bad side that wriggled out in between 11 and 12?

    PHONES! It all keeps coming back to phones. WitS refs (which starts (real) Clara off on her travels with the Doctor), Karabraxos has the Doctor’s no, GUS, the people on the phone in Flatline when they are attacked. Clara keeping in touch with Danny by phone when she’s off with the Doctor (just what tarriff is she on??!).  OMG – is Moff putting something in the phones now…? 😈

    “I chose well” – Doesn’t mean she’s already “got” to Clara, but that she’s planning to use her in (the presumably not too distant) future.

    The other thing I’m reminded of, with all the talk of soldiers, inc @phaseshift‘s mention of remembrance day coming up (in this anniversary year) is War Games, the last Troughton story. Which was the first story where the timelords were officially named.  Could Missy (as rogue timelord, valeyard, tardis etc) be collecting the “best” soldiers for an army/armies? I’m also thinking about @janetteb‘s spot on miniaturisations, the toy soldiers in Listen, the manipulation by an (initially) unknown agent in Time Heist...

    #33885
    janetteB @janetteb

    Arbutus

    I once took a course in Old English from a German prof who simply couldn’t understand that we weren’t all linguistics majors! He expected us to easily make connections that just weren’t always happening for us.

    Of topic but reminded me of an English, Medieval Lit lecturer who had the same problem with us, mono lingual Aussie students and our inability to grasp middle English. Oddly enough the only student who had no issues was a friend whose parents were Greek.

    @mudlark

    But when the Doctor says ‘… goodness had nothing to do with it’ he was referring to moral excellence or rightness, a quality which he clearly believes he does not possess, and which he does not think Clara possesses when she emulates him.

    Stamps foot. I was going to say that, though maybe not as well. Clara is a “good” Doctor because of her actions but not the motives behind them.

    @arbutus I do see your point about the Doctor and Danny “saving” Clara but she is usually the strong person in the group so there is a kind of balance. She has often saved the Doctor and might well have to save them from whatever danger they encounter saving her. One hope anyway.

    Re comments about Clara’s potential downfall having sexist connitations I think it is important to write well rounded female characters. Clara is strong but like so many traditional heros has a tragic flaw. Danny too has flaws which clash with Clara’s. I would not want to see female actors limited to playing idealised heroines without fault. The companion has to carry the character development aspect of the story and so we often see more “going on” with the female character but there have been any number of strong female characters in Dr Who and Clara is strong but she has a weakness, and both her strenght and weakness were in full play in this episode.

    I suspect Missy might be seeing Clara through her phone. @scaryb had a good point regarding the use of phones since Clara was first introduced. Clara is often on her phone, especially in this series.

    Another theory is that Missy might be the G.I. which may have survived in some form. After all Clara escaped, maybe the G.I latched onto her and escaped with her and the G.I did pick Clara out initially in Bells of St Johns.

    @Purofilion. I like the suggestion that she was born under the clocktower on Trenzalore.

    There have been a lot of strange things about Clara, ie her ability to hold her breath, her seeming mind reading skills for instance. (Sure there are more, but too tired to think of them right now.)

    Cheers

    Janette

    #33886
    geoffers @geoffers

    @scaryb – thanks for the link to mathieson’s blogs. lots of cool, behind-the-scenes info in there…

    one thing in particular i noticed, in the ‘tiny tardis of terror’ blog, he says, “I was two drafts into Flatline, which up until this point had been a conventional Doctor Who episode in many ways; the Doctor and Clara running around together and try to figure out exactly how to defeat the Boneless, the flat ‘aliens of the week’. Only the version of the Doctor I’d been writing had been a generic vaguely Matt Smith version. Capaldi had only just been announced and this was supposed to be the meeting where I discovered Steven’s vision for the new Doctor’s character.”

    also, “Draft three was a lot of work. I had to completely rewrite the episode from scratch incorporating a whole new character for the Doctor based upon 12’s new direction, figure out exactly how Clara would behave without him (Doctor Clara! Of course!) and make sure the logic of the tiny Tardis all held together.”

    this reminded me of earlier discussions (can’t remember in which episode thread, though) about capaldi having trouble making the role his, since the bulk of the series had already been written with smith’s portrayal in mind. we are on episode 9, so i’m guessing all the episodes were written before capaldi was announced?! thus, all had some major re-writes to go through, to adjust the doctor’s character to suit peter’s strengths and/or to diminish what smith had established…

    good stuff! 🙂

    #33887
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @janetteb I do like Clara’s development so far this series, and I’ve said the same as you that as fictional characters, none of the characters need to be role models.  I’m more of a mind that Clara’s lying will motivate Danny to do something (follow her perhaps) that puts him in danger – Missy’s collecting soldiers after all – and that Clara will have to face up to her responsibility for it as she and the Doctor rescue him.

    @geoffers Yup, Mathieson’s blogs are really interesting. It’s not often you get that much of a look behind the scenes. He also mentioned that he had to rewrite when he was told it was to be a Doctor-lite episode.  He’s clearly in awe of Moffat, and seems to have had a really positive experience working with him (or he’s just making sure he gets asked back, haha). I think it was @bluesqueakpip who mentioned that Moffat has said that he doesn’t write particular Doctors, he just writes the Doctor and leaves it to the actor to put a stamp on it.  But maybe other writers have different methods, especially if they are not as steeped in Who as SM is. Neil Gaiman said he wrote NiS specifically for Smith.

    @rob Glad to see the caffeine’s working well 😀

    I have a tiny TARDIS on my keyring – takes on a whole new significance now! (Doctor in my pocket – squeee!)

    #33888
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @badwulf Sympathies on having to watch alone. I find it infinitely preferable to watching with SO, who thinks cracking jokes throughout about Daleks not being able to climb stairs is still funny! (I tried it once, it’s better this way!)  Hope you can persuade Mrs BW back to the fold tho.  I agree – I thought of the Time Meddler too, that scene made a big impression when I was wee.

    In addition to phones, we’ve had “invisible” monsters throughout this series, including the Doctor at one point. The thing you can’t quite see unless you catch it at just the right angle – “What’s that in the mirror, in the corner of your eye, what’s that footstep following but never passing by?”

     

     

    #33889
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Phones!

    Woman in the shop!

    @janetteb You suggested Missy was watching Clara through her phone. Who gave her that phone? Assuming she hasn’t changed it since BoSJ, then the WitS also gave her the phone. With spying devices incorporated…?

    #33891
    FlirtingDinosaur @flirtingdinosaur

    I’ve slided through all the post and haven’t seen this mentioned anywhere, if I’ve missed it – my bad. But, lots of you have been discussing reflections/mirroring of Clara throughout this series. She always seemed in lots of doubt when looking at herself either in her tree-bedroom-mirror or the window etc. This time at least one reflection pretty much kicks you in the face, when she’s talking to the Doctor while looking into an incredibly white mirror (at the aunties apartment, was it?) and for once she seems VERY sure of herself. But that while she is playing the Doctor.

    Could Clara turn into some sort of (long lasting) Doctor Clara, like the Doctor Donna? (yeah, probably not)

     

    @lisa good spot. I looked out for it on the rewatch. It really does look like a Cyperman-eye .. but wha- .. what? Is Missy collecting the soldiers for upgrading?? <brain processing>

     

    On another note: there’s been lots of complaining about too much companion / too less Doctor. For me the balance of the two plays out well and I really enjoy the character development (as many have said, Clara feels more like an actual person now with different features/strength/flaws then she did with the 11th. But whether you like the character or not is up to everyones personal opinion, but Jennas acting this series is top notch!! She delivered on ‘I’m the doctor’ and I for one believed her!

     

    Anyway, back to work it is

    s

    #33892
    Anonymous @

    I will not @ people here but (she says very sternly) ….but you know who you are! 🙂 This business of it ‘being darker’, or rather not “being dark enough” apparently! Where did this attitude first start? I just recall that Capaldi said ‘the dr isn’t so touchy feely’. Sure there are dark spots but I recall my earlier statement of “this is a family show at a family time” and yet it still delivers. It scares the creeps out of some 13 yr olds I know. Why do people over-use the word ‘dark’? Almost like ‘edgy’ or ‘hip’ or ‘cool’? Perhaps we see so much blood lust and …violence that unless there’s that, then it’s simply not dark enough. I believe that the tension between characters creates that darkness, as does the wonderful ambience in nearly all of the episodes this series, certainly this was the case in the claustrophobic Deep Breath and Mummy on the Orient Express

    What IS this? GoThrones? ‘Being Human’? What could you peeps possibly want in this series? The myths and legends alone are dark enough but, I guess, you have to know them -in the first place! We’ve had monsters in the wall, a crafty scary single dalek, a terrifying mummy you couldn’t avoid, a spacesuit twin at the end of the universe in a ship with ‘don’t open’ written on its interior, an image under the bed and…on the bed, a half faced man using organs in a larder…. honestly, it’s been creative (stellar in fact), with an entirely new Doctor containing so much gravitas he weighs ten tonnes  AND an odd woman in a nethersphere with very weird eyes.

    @janetteb I agree that the Dr may have something in ‘his eye’  -well hopefully something different to this, but Missy does ‘have tech and will travel’, so this means she’s ‘around in this …universe’?

    I seem to be doing a lot of air quoting!

    Also, I am such easy bait aren’t I (? )  to newbies and naysayers who may have little positive input but boy can they complain..Gotta get back in control 🙂

     

     

    #33893
    Anonymous @

    @serahni wonderful. How great meeting Jenna! Well done you and keeping calm with a wriggler in your arms…. 🙂

    Kindest, purofilion

    #33894
    Serahni @serahni

    @purofilion  I cannot claim to have actually laid eyes on her but I was in her presence!  From all accounts, in particular the photo the girls had with her, she’s tiny.  I mean, the 9-year-old is petite and the shortest in her class and even she nearly reached Jenna’s shoulder…

    #33896
    Rob @rob

    @purofilion

    I agree with you the series has gone as dark as Who can given it’s in built family show parameters.

    Children of Earth was superbly datk but that was Torchwood

    I also agree strongly 9 out 10 that this corner of the Who-tin-net is for discussion nos diss-cussion

    (Now being male I should also add something that I know you completely disagree with, whilst claiming you’ve implied support for it previously :p)

    #33897
    Anonymous @

    @Purofilion – I like your paying the price to cross the river styx theory. I think it is the explanation for the creation of Missy.

     When the Doctor got new regenerations, to keep the universe in balance there might need to be an equal and opposite reaction. The price to pay for basically creating a new Doctor life span is the creation of an AntiDoctor.

     Missy is the AntiDoctor theory (that might be the same as the Master theory? @pedant and @fivefaces)

    The key lines in Flatline could be “Balance.” And Missy says, “Clara, my Clara” just the same as 11 used to.

     The way 11 regenerated was not the normal way it usually happens. So, I think the reason why is ‘cos 11 split into 2 Doctor 12’s (Capaldi and Missy).

    Missy has similarities to 11’s personality, but Cap Doc is nothing like 11, so they are complete opposites. We think CapDoc is the good one because he is the one we saw, but I think Missy was created at the same time in another dimension (like the monster dimension).

    That could explain:

    • Why Cap Doc wants to know “Am I a good man?” (We don’t know which Doctor is good and which is the bad one). Maybe they are a mix of both good and bad and just opposite personalities?
    • Why Cap Doc tells Clara ‘Goodness’ has nothing to do with being an excellent Doctor. He was talking about himself, since he is an excellent Doctor too, but still doesn’t know if he is the good one.
    • How Missy collects people too. She doesn’t need any tech at all or even has to do anything. Whenever a person dies in Cap Doc’s dimension then they appear in Missy’s automatically. It would make sense that if Cap Doc is responsible for causing their death in someway; the opposite reaction is to send them right to Missy.

    I don’t know how Missy picked Clara in anyway though?  And it doesn’t work for WitS, so probably just bonkers! :mrgreen:

    #33898
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @janetteb

      Stamps foot. I was going to say that

    😀 .  That is my reaction most weeks.  By the time I have the opportunity to post my thoughts on an episode there are already two or three pages of comments and all the points I had intended to make have been discussed by others.  So I mooch off muttering to myself and trying to think of something else to say that might be remotely original.  ‘Tis a hard world 🙁 .

    @purofilion    May I belatedly add my voice to those who expressed pleasure and relief at seeing you back and restored to (relative) health.

    Re Clara

    After the claricles completed their job was she reborn into another being, re-atomised with the help of Missy

    I much prefer your suggestion that Missy somehow selected Clara at the point where she re-emerged from the Doctor’s timeline to my idea that she had been ‘grooming’ her from childhood.  It also chimes with my notion that the Clara we see now is Clara Prime plus, a reintegration  incorporating the sum of all the claricles with their varied experience.  I’m not sure about the involvement of the Time Lords in the process, though, since at that point we were still in a universe where the Time Lords had been destroyed (with the exception of the Master, of course, and perhaps one or two others).

    #33899
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @janetteb

    There have been a lot of strange things about Clara

    And now I’m thinking back to Night Terrors, where we establish that it’s possible for the parents of an adopted child (in that case, a Tenza child) to not remember that their child is adopted.

    @serahni

    it seems really, really weird he didn’t go back to confirm the actual pregnancy

    A ‘perception filter’ might have been in place. It might be only in this regeneration that the Doctor realises he didn’t check – and guesses why. Which would be why he thought Clara might have been in a Children’s Home…

    #33900
    Anonymous @

    @rob eer eer (hiding behind bed and pillows), I have ‘issed you off?? I really am thick when I say I don’t know  all these letters: “:p”?? I see I have strongly supported dark in the past?? Is that what you mean? Or is it something else? See, I talk too much, having a break was a good thing but I may have forgotten my marbles.

    @mudlark, aah thank you. I shouldn’t have said anything, just crept in; feeling a little embarrassed but the pethidine they give one -it does have an effect…any Doctors (of intestinal parasites) would know around this forum?

    OK, the Clara Prime Mini-ster would work. The CPlus version. Indeeeed. @barnable the antiDoctor would work very well with the ‘anti-Christ’ mythology  (being not an antichrist in the original Hebrew) or anti-Hades or would it be pro-Hades?

    What I mean is that the two could cancel each other out thus becoming Super Doctor? The New Doctor: Doctor One Prime also. But I see you specifically mean two Doctors created at the time of the explosion – who wrote “listen” perhaps?

    Missy must need Tech…She’s using it… & we have so many miniatures as @janetteb stated -the mini process in Into The Dalek, this week’s and of course the Tardis vomited out of the dinosaur.

    Missy is talking about Clara but we don’t know when she was chosen by Missy -before 11 changed, when 11 was changing or after he changed and became 12. If he is two, then the other ‘one’ chose Clara or rather continued to agree to choose -that could be inferred from her speech? See @scaryb 33884

    When the Dr speaks about the “corner of his eye…. what’s that footstep following but never passing by” which @scaryb referenced could have something to do with your theory, barnable, is it that he’s shadowed? Who was on top of the bed in the children’s home? But no, that had to be a child, or a small woman so a small Clara woman -a Clara, the real Clara watching Clara PrimePlus?

    In this, everyone is watching someone else…. either via phones (as stated upthread) or hiding behind corners, under beds, outside of ships, thru the walls and of course an eye on the Promised Land  with pictures (more watching/mimicking)  of various R Hoods! And the giant egg watches over us all!

    And everyone is lying. I’ll say this: how much darker could it possibly be when those around are being watched, or doing the watching, listening in and lying….

    The stuff of nightmares! G’night all or g’day…

    #33901
    Anonymous @

    sorry @mudlark I wasn’t clear in referring to and very much liking your Clara Prime Plus idea/theory  -very very good!

    #33902
    Anonymous @

    I really believe something is in the Tardis with the Dr -he said that if it landed without the weight dimension changing then it would cause the earth to shake/crack? So, why wouldn’t there be a nefarious character tip-toeing about the Tardis? I realise he knew Dan was there wearing the bracelet while Clara tried nuttily to convince Dan that she could actually see the ‘other me when I’m with the Doctor’ whilst the Dr laughingly (in my mind) treats her like a slave! Actually would a Clara Prime Plus be that…er dim witted? Or is it ‘cute youth’.

    I have nothing against young people. (I’m drying to be dry)

    #33903
    Anonymous @

    It’s now raining egg shells and arrows on my head. Stop IT!!

    #33904
    Whisht @whisht

    Argh trying to type on a phone (though somehow appropriate with the conversation)!

    Have we had the “they’re not being teleported, they’re being miniaturised” yet?

    Little Miss Missy…

    Good to see you back in fine (if drug fuelled) fettle @purofilion !

    #33906
    lisa @lisa

    @Barnable- your bonker about opposite dimension Missy is very cool ! that will give me something to think over today – I’m on this flight later and Doctor theorizing will keep me from being too bored ! 🙂

    #33907
    Brewski @brewski

    Some Random thoughts before going Bonksy…

    1) Missy seeing through the Doctor’s eyes: No, then she should not have been uncertain about how the HFM died.
    2) Line I loved not yet mentioned: Clara (to Danny): I’m helping him find his Auntie. Doctor: Not techinically lying!
    3) Using the sonic to signal the train to stop. Cue the Red Setting!

    #33908
    BadWulf @badwulf

    @brewski No, then she should not have been uncertain about how the HFM died.

    Perhaps she was trying to introduce some confusion into the psyche of the newly deceased?

    #33909
    BadWulf @badwulf

    @flirtingdinosaur This time at least one reflection pretty much kicks you in the face, when she’s talking to the Doctor while looking into an incredibly white mirror (at the aunties apartment, was it?) and for once she seems VERY sure of herself. But that while she is playing the Doctor.

    I noticed that, too. But then I thought it might just be a VFX artefact to avoid showing the camera and film crew in the mirror.

    #33910
    DrBen @drben

    Missy is the seagull!!!

    Kidding.  After a couple weeks of work and travel, I’m finally caught up and can contribute again!

    I loved this week’s episode.  First off, I think the effects were some of the best I’ve ever seen on DW.  The 3D creatures were completely believable and creepy, and the scene with Clara & Rigby in the hanging chair while the creatures came for them was fantastically well done.  Second, the mini-TARDIS was exactly the same size as this, which sits atop my kitchen counter and holds candy.  What a hoot!

    Third, I thought the humo(u)r was well handled.  The bits with full-size Doctor stuck in mini-TARDIS were a lot of fun.

    Fourth, this episode told us a lot about the characters of Clara and the Twelfth Doctor.  Clara is becoming more and more Doctor-like — lying, manipulating people for their “own good”, etc. — and the Doctor doesn’t like it one bit.  In effect, Clara held up a mirror to the Doctor this week (there we are on mirrors again), and it was not a pretty picture.  In particular, I think the Doctor was appalled that Clara took such glee in being like him, and in being more tickled at solving the puzzle than sad that people died along the way.  Add to that the fact that Clara is now lying when she has no reason to (Danny is going to be pissed when he finds out), and she is skating on thin ice.  (I understand what people are saying about Clara falling into the trap of the female character gone astray, but I think it’s more about the Doctor being a bad influence, and Clara needing to find her own way.)

    Now onto the Bonkers!

    @barnable I love your theory about Missy being a split-off regeneration (a Doctoricle?).  With all the regeneration energy he got out of the Time Lords, there could be Doctors all over the place!

    I’ve got a new theory going in a slightly different direction.  Several people (apologies for not giving credit) have postulated that Missy is inside the Doctor’s head (miniaturization-wise), but what if she’s more figuratively inside his head?  What if Missy is sort of a multiple personality for the Doctor, and the Nethersphere is something he has created inside his own head to deal with things — the death of innocents, his own identity issues, etc.?  I recognize that it doesn’t really fit with the synopsis for the season finale, but that has never stopped us before!

    #33911
    Brewski @brewski

    Noticed a lot of people on other boards remarking on PC’s hair undergoing changes throughout.  Short while he’s trapped in the Tardis.  Fluffy when he’s outside.

    Hmmm…. continuity error?  Or the Doctor from different periods of time….?

    #33912
    Brewski @brewski

    Ok, my next Bonkers thought is hatching:

    Missy is short for Mister Clever.

    The Cyber-Planner from Nightmare in Silver.   Still inside his head.

    #33913
    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @drben and @brewski

    I like your speculations about Missy being in the Doctor’s head. It was certainly quite marked – the conversation he had with himself in his cabin on the Orient Express in space – almost as if two distinct personalities were present.

    If Moff is going for the Valeyard story (which I know some people don’t want, but I’m up for it) then a Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde approach to that would certainly be up Moff’s literary street.

    I personally think Missy is external to the Doctor, BUT she may be trying to provoke a crisis in Twelve which brings out the Hyde (Valeyard) side and makes the Dr. Jekyl side dormant.

    #33914
    WhoGirl @whogirl

    Very much enjoyed this episode, felt a bit Tennant-esque. Really cool idea for an alien, and the image of the police officer’s nervous system on the wall was chilling. Love a new idea, and that was new. Loved the mini TARDIS, and the scene where the Doctor’s hand dragged it off the railway track had me in stitches.

    As for the true identities of Clara and Missy- every week I comb through theories and my opinion changes! At the moment I like the idea of Clara being the TARDIS and Missy is a female Time Lord. Next week- who knows!! Please keep the ideas coming, I enjoy reading them. (Mine are usually rubbish!)

    #33915
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @scaryb

    @blenkinsopthebrave Clara as the Doctor’s daughter – not really convinced, but I love it anyway.

    Ah ha! A challenge! OK, I will try and find all the evidence from Clara’s first appearance onwards.

    Of course, this may take a little time.

    #33917
    Davros @davros

    Absolute gem of an episode. Great original concept, funny Tardis-related humour, genuinely scary for the younguns, and nice further development of the Clara-as-trainee theme. She seems to be warming to it. Shame she lied to Danny, that’s not going to go well. So why is he trying to make Clara take his responsibilities? Obv, Missy is involved.

    The Doctor began the series by asking her “Am I a good man?”

    Clara now says “I was the Doctor, and I was good.”

    “You were an exceptional Doctor, Clara: goodness had nothing to do with it.”

    #33918
    Anonymous @

    @brewski @drben  that Missy is in his head rather than corporeal? Great idea. But then, the ipad tech… which leads me to think it is a real place. Also the author voice containing Seb suggests interactions beyond Missy therefore my vote is for corporeal but, as you suggest, it could be in the Doctor’s head (too…).

    @whisht thank you for your wishes. Indeed, drug fuelled and using syringes -possibly I am now a therapeutic addict (probably not -I don’t get the sweats and don’t rock in foetal position if the ‘drug’ isn’t coming!) or close, therefore I can speak for addiction; Clara’s ‘addiction’.

    I’m sure she’s addicted to travelling; is it all that bad? If her life is in danger and the Doctor possibly knows it, then yes it’s bad. I recall someone (the Dr) looking at birth and death dates and Clara saying: “no skip that…”. I believe this happened with Strax as well in Deep Breath.

    @juniperfish indeed I like your idea about the Doctor’s external monologue. I recall him looking at the camera (noted by phaseshift I believe as well) and at the ‘other’ estate as if confiding in us, the audience. Or, this is suggestive to the audience that there’s another ‘person’, another Doctor.

    Could we invite the idea of Clara as PrimePlus (@mudlark) with extra ‘powers’ like the ‘bat people’ -sorry this is a tuckerism from series 4 (The Thick of It) who, whilst hanging onto the Tardis thru time and space picked up elements of that dimension. If I didn’t hear Missy say “Clara, I chose you well”, I’d be inclined to suggest that Clara is Missy as an offshoot to protect Clara’s brain from the detritus collected thru time/space whilst a) hanging on to Tardis b) being in his timestream last season and c) being in the vicinity of the crack and then close to the Dr when the regen energy was ‘home delivered’ to the Doctor on Trenza.

    #33928
    Brewski @brewski

    @purofilion First off, best wishes and hope you’re doing better.

    that Missy is in his head rather than corporeal? Great idea. But then, the ipad tech… which leads me to think it is a real place. Also the author voice containing Seb suggests interactions beyond Missy therefore my vote is for corporeal but, as you suggest, it could be in the Doctor’s head (too…).

    I am inclined to agree that she’s a real person in an unreal place. Observations like “Missy is Mister Clever” is more brewskier than bonksier theorizing. Along the lines of Tasha Lem is Adric. Not always at my most serious. 😛

    #33929

    Random thought, based on two observations made earlier (can’t recall by whom).

    Observation 1 – the nether sphere was referenced in The Big Bang.

    Observation 2: Siege mode Tardis look a lot like the Pandorica.

    Even Who on a tight budget can afford a different shaped box, so I conclude that the chosen shape was not an accident.

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