Into the Dalek

Home Forums Episodes The Twelfth Doctor Into the Dalek

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  • #30888
    Anonymous @

    @arbutus and @chickenelly apologies if I was over heated. In my head, I often talk to myself (mad? Yes!) about how to respond to people who feel Dr Who is Leftist twattle. Inevitably they’d refer to the military, homosexuality (we were spared this today), rebellion and anti-authoritarianism.

    Some of what was said needed to have a bit of real explanation inserted (quite high and painfully). I did that, I think.

    I was able, back in the 80s to look into education (as part of high education) in certain UK counties in the 1950s, 60s and 80s. It was certainly interesting. Much of what happened in life was mirrored in Dr Who, at other times, not the case. The BBC was very stoical about remaining in an ‘elite’ position. For what it’s worth, it’s a fair conversation to have -but, oops, not this thread. However, the poster did so on this thread and I responded.

    What do they say to Magpie attacks in Australia: either a) tell ’em off once and show who’s the boss or b)  keep your head down and a small weapon handy (a big stick which you can wave whilst walking). I favour both!

    I loved the episode and I adored the miniature device. I also thought some of the back and forth at first was quite funny: “Oh right, that’s nice, but you might be a duplicate so Journey kill him, bag him and chuck him”  -well, not quite, but similar. Reminds me of Lethal Wea**n.

    I would expect no-one would be cheering on the army post 51st century at hearing that: “sorry but you have to be killed, so do your kids and your mum coz you just might be duplicates. If not, you have our apologies but that’s all we can do. Off you go now”.

    Go the military 🙂 But this is a story, folks.

    Kindest, puro.

    #30889
    Anonymous @

    @timeloop I liked Goethe’s Gretchen parallel. I think that the 1st question fits too, the Dr is a change agent with respect to the Dalek.

    As to the episode in general, I can see that there was a part where the Dr addressed the Dalek. He was off to our right, and the camera was too far back. The tone of the Dr was wrong (something about Capaldi here). However, when he spoke to the Dalek, front and centre, it was mesmerising.

    At times I find Capaldi uses anger with those teeth of his too much, I noticed this, when in DB, he was ‘fighting’ with Humpty and I couldn’t really understand what he was saying -of course that was probably my problem. Kindest, puro.

    #30890
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @Purofilon

    I wonder if there is something in knowing that Gallifrey still exists, along with his own people, that has allowed this incarnation to be alien again, to be perhaps not so emotionally dependent upon being loved by humanity.

    I’d say that’s exactly the thinking behind this. The Eccleston Doctor was a bit PTSD, but the Tennant Doctor and the Smith Doctor were both, basically, elderly orphans in search of a new family. As such, they wanted quite desperately to be likeable. Acceptable. And young.

    So those incarnations emphasised everything Time Lords have in common with humans. They were also still running: away from who they were, away from what they’d done and away from their death.

    But this one, the Capaldi Doctor, isn’t an orphan and he isn’t running away any more. His people are out there and he has to find them. He also has to find some way of bringing them home without Time War II breaking out. He’s suddenly reverted to middle age, with as many regenerations ahead as there are behind.

    Humans are no longer the substitute family. He has to go home. So this incarnation is emphasising everything about him that belongs to his people and his home. Not just the alien-ness; the books and the maths suggest someone who’s trying to regain everything he once studied at the Prydonian Academy. He needs to work stuff out (and admit he has to work it out) – and he’s stopped bothering trying to impress the humans with a bit of quick technobabble.

    (Personally, I was always waiting for a Companion to say ‘Doctor, did you just make that up?’ 🙂 )

    But the main thing that is worrying him, I think, is that he’s run so far, so fast and for so long that he no longer knows who he is. He spent too much time trying to forget; now he can’t remember. Or perhaps he never knew, never allowed himself to know. Never thought about it; distracted himself with the pretty universe.

    But it’s important that he be a good man, or at least be capable of becoming a good man. Because if he, in this most Time Lord incarnation, can be a good man – so can the rest of the Time Lords.

    And if the Time Lords cannot be morally good – he can’t bring them back.

    #30891
    ScaryB @scaryb

    *looks round carefully to see if here are any daleks still lurking*

    @miapatrick – your last paragraph is beautifully said, thank you.

    @Purofilion – thanks for keeping the nightshift going, as eruditely as ever 🙂

    @bluesqueakpip I agree with your masterful (mistressful?!) summing up of this Doctor’s character.  This is the Doctor, as Vastra put it, without the mask. He’s always been like this – you see flashes of it in all the Doctors.  Capaldi’s Doctor just isn’t hiding it – he doesn’t need to be liked.  He does need to know that he’s better than a dalek tho, that he’s driven by something other than pure hatred (the bit the dalek recognises as beauty (in its completeness) – also recognised by the daleks in Asylum). I also liked your analysis of Davros as the most evil creature in the Whoniverse.  Daleks are bred to hate – even when they have an epiphany and see the beauty of life prevailing against all the odds – they cannot do anything with that appreciation other than to find a new target (even their own kind) to exterminate.

    Presumably the Doctor is also aware of the failings in TL society which led to the Time Wars and will be very wary of bringing back his people only for the whole cycle to start again. Which it could if a “fault” is bred into the Timelords, rather than their (often reprehensible) behaviour being the result of their education/social system.

    A couple of things I picked up on rewatch –

    1 dalek on a mission is all you need to ramp up the fear factor. A small squadron equally so.

    The Doctor’s intervention only prevented the injured Dalek from being killed by the trion(?) gas, it didn’t change what it wanted to do (destroy the daleks).  Wondering how long it will take the other daleks to notice it’s gone a bit rogue! Presumably the attack unit took a while to compute what was happening, it was so far out of their experience.

    @pedant – thanks for your point about Journey’s brother being already dead. I missed the first couple of seconds on my first watch, but he definitely looks like a goner.

    Which leads me to Gretchen’s “transportation” to Missy’s world. That looked remarkably similar to Journey’s rescue. Was she picked up in the split second before she died? The antibodies leave no trace so she could have been physically transported.  Could Missy be in a TARDIS? In which case she’s presumably a Timelord. The Rani or the Master? Or someone else completely?  (HFM/Humpty, being a robot, wouldn’t need to be transported at the point of death, as he could presumably be rebuilt/rebooted).

    Re Journey being turned down as a companion, it wouldn’t be the first time as others have said, but the Doctor is usually kinder in his refusal. As Eleven said – he doesn’t know “why” but he does know “who” will be a  companion when he meets them. His subconscious recognises who will be good for him/has most need of him at that particular time.

    #30892
    TheatreGuy @theatreguy

    @scaryb I noticed too how Journey being picked up by the TARDIS, was similar to Gretchan’s appearance in front of Missy. The only thing that makes me doubt Missy is in a TARDIS is you actually saw Gretchan and even half-face the previous week die (skewered on top of a building in half-faces experience).

    I wonder if the similarity between the two is that Missy is a part of the Doctors TARDIS – uploading people who sacrifice themselves the same way CAL did in the library

    #30893
    thommck @thommck

    As ever, so much to comment on!

    I really enjoyed the episode, I love these ones that are a bit quieter, despite all the explosions and outer space bits, it is more about what is being said than done. Here’s my breakdown and comments

    Danny Pink – I thought people’s comments on a link between Journey Blue and Danny Pink to be a bit of a long shot but then I heard how people are saying that her dying brother at the pre-credits scene was a dead ringer for him. I had a quick look back and it is too vague to confirm it but also to similar to deny! I also saw another person (I think on the Guardian) mention how he was referred to as a ladykiller, was this meant to be taken literally!

    I am a bit confused to why Clara is only just meeting him, It was obviously not his first day (running the cadets club/getting asked repetitive questions in class). Did Clara say to the Doctor she had been back for 4 weeks or months? If so, I presume he only started after the Christmas holidays. Can anyone clear the timeline up for me a bit please.

    As for his past, is it possible he was/is a Pinkerton? A detective agency and “security” service sometimes sent to round up outlaws?

    Did anyone else spot the notice board Clara walks past (at around 0:9:40) outside her classroom? More links to Rome, with photos of temples etc.

    Daleks – Great to see them being scary again. I love seeing them talk to each other on their battleship, I always think it’s really eerie when we see them planning something and communicating intelligent thoughts. The soldiers guns weren’t really up to much for fighting Daleks, I think they need to upgrade their weapons!

    Is the good Dalek, Rusty, still around? He now has the knowledge that Gallifrey is still around! Surely he could communicate that across the Dalek pathweb and start of Time War II. What if he gets captured and is interrogated before being destroyed as inferior?

    I was slightly disappointed when we found out that voice from the trailer isn’t Davros after all :(. Also, I thought when the repressed memories were being shown on the Dalek’s screen we weren’t shown anything a bit more historical/familiar from past episodes.


    via twitter.com/bbcone

    The crack – I din’t think it was the same shape as Amy’s cracks but I had a quick look back and, apart from being vertical, it was almost identical. I doubt it’s connected as I though that plot was done and dusted, but in that case why make it so similar!?

    The slap – It seems most people find it amusing when Clara slapped the Doctor accross his face but all of my family, my wife in particular, thought it was actually quite abusive and not jokey at all. Can you imagine the uproar if the Doctor had slapped Clara that hard? Nothing excuses domestic violence like that IMHO

    Soldiers – I do think the Doctor was overly harsh denying Journey Blue a ride in the TARDIS but maybe this was to drive a story theme rather than a typical example of who the Doctor lets on board? I know he doesn’t like soldiers on the whole but it all seemed a bit damning to me, leaving her with no chance of redemption. Hopefully we’ll see Journey again sometime. Perhaps she’ll find Jenny and team up with her 😉

    Heaven – (@confusedpolarity, @theatreguy et al) I loved how we got another quick glimpse of heaven. It really took me by surprise as I was expecting something (or nothing) only at the very end of the episode. Was anyone still around to see Gretchen die or weren’t they paying attention? We still don’t know if it is just the bodies or “spirit” that makes it to paradise.

    So, we learn that Missy (Miss C?) isn’t only collecting villains but heroes too. They could possibly still want revenge on the Doctor but doubtful, as Gretchen died of her own choice (as perhaps Humpty also did). Is Missy collecting martyrs or just people who wouldn’t have died if the Doctor hadn’t interfered? Maybe this is the last spoiler River Song was talking about. She fits the criteria for heaven so far! I’ve heard the Rani was in to collecting people? Is this true?

    #30894
    Rob @rob

    Well watched Into the Dalek yesterday afternoon,  working away from home is such a pain at times. Consequently missed the clip clop of hooves over the bridge but well done from our Guardian(istas) 😉

    My thoughts for what they’re worth echo previous voices…..

    The crack is still here methinks

    Capaldi is seriously channeling Hartnell so the second batch of regenerations have as the clock face analogy we discussed way back is 24 and 12 hour, Clara teaching and Mr Pink

    CAL has learnt from River and is saving worthy souls

    The am I a good man questions. I think if you question yourself then it does make you try to make more moral choices, so the Doctor is by his very self doubt trying tobe a good man

    Time for more coffee 🙂

    #30895
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    @bluesqueakpip wow what a summation of your thinking on the past and present doctors. From my earlier comments you can probably surmise I agree with your assessment that Capdoc seems into the main have reverted to an early Hartnellesk though with just enough touches of something new. When we the viewers first met Hartnell’s doctor he had an aloofness that appeared to be pretty common to the timelord race which he appeared to lose as his tenure as the doctor went on. It’s my feeling that Clara’s and that of any of his companions role/job is now to provide that humanising influence. Remember in TDOTD when wardoc was bickering and being sarcastic with tendoc and mattdoc, mattdoc said this is why he travelled with companions.Its my belief his companions ground the doctor out of this sense of constant superiority which seems to be endemic in the timelord psyke. The doctor sort of admitted this when he said to Clara without any elaboration that he needed her when he went to pick her up from the school. It was if he knew he needed something from Clara after seeing the damaged Dalek.

    #30896
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Sad that the Doctor didn’t take Rusty along as his new companion.
    I suppose the Doctor doesn’t find ‘a ruthless killing machine’ the perfect foil for his character…
    z
    Looking forward to the new series of ‘Handles 4 Rusty’, though…

    #30898
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @thommck

    Danny Pink: The assumption is that Danny Pink started at Coal Hill in the January term. Moffat, remember, has been a school teacher, so is aware that teachers can be away on training courses for a few days. So I’m guessing it’s Clara’s first term day back, and he’s only been at the school a couple of days.

    That would explain the head/deputy head’s ‘You haven’t met him yet’ to Clara, and that he’s had more than one lesson with the class.

    The slap: it’s not domestic violence. The Doctor isn’t Clara’s boyfriend. It’s a punch-up between friends.

    That said, Moffat does tend to have all his female characters quite capable of delivering an almighty wallop where needed. I’m kind of with @phaseshift – he’s just told someone whose echo struggled mightily to remain good that Daleks can’t be good. She earned that slap.

    But there’s a second reason she needs to slap him. The Daleks. If what the Doctor takes away from this is ‘Daleks can’t ever turn good’, how on earth is the war between the Time Lords and the Daleks ever to end? It can’t, except by one side destroying the other.

    Yet he must find that other way if he’s to bring his people back to this universe. Instead, having been given evidence that Daleks are capable of change (if you circumvent the engineering stopping them changing), he continues right on his ‘they can’t change, you can only kill them’ path.

    So – not only did Clara ‘earn’ the right to slap the Doctor on that topic, the Doctor ‘earned’ the right to be slapped. It’s not that it’s morally correct, it’s that it’s realistically a situation where she’d wallop the inconsiderate and above all stupid bar-steward.

    [There’s a similar situation in Sherlock S3 E1 – again, it’s not that it’s right for one character to thump another, but it is realistic].

    #30899

    @thommck

    The slap – It seems most people find it amusing when Clara slapped the Doctor accross his face but all of my family, my wife in particular, thought it was actually quite abusive and not jokey at all. Can you imagine the uproar if the Doctor had slapped Clara that hard? Nothing excuses domestic violence like that IMHO

    I find this type of moral relativism fascinating. It sweeps a huge power relation under the carpet. The average chap can, very easily, overpower the average chappess. Of course there would have been outrage had the Doctor delivered the slap, but to say that Clara delivering the slap is equivalent is absurd in ignoring the nigh-on-a-foot height difference and that Clara is actually very slight. (Those who recall the “Here’s the part where you make a choice” montage from Buffy will have seen this spelled out very effectively – when the power relation changes is the time for discussion, not before ).

    But anyway, in story, we know that one version of Clara had as close as you can get up-close-and-personal experience of  Daleks morals, and in particular trying to be good. You don’t need to suppose some Clara-Collective-Consciousness to suggest that she has earned the right to give him a slap.

    #30900
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Kai Blue is an anagram of bleak UI…

    However, my guess from the (QI informed) pink to blue thing is that the Blues are descendants of the Pinks.
    z
    Maybe that’s why the Doctor thinks Clara looks old – She’s a Great (x lots) Granny!

    #30902
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @devilishrobby – aaand breathe!

    Paragraphs. I’m not being a grammar-and-punctuation dalek, I’m being a dyslexic dalek.

    Chop up long bits of text into shorter chunks and I’ll love you for it. I’ll also be able to read what you say. 😀

    Yeah, Clara is the Capaldi Doctor’s ‘carer’ in very much the same way that Ian and Barbara taught that arrogant, much younger Time Lord to care about more than his own family and people.

    #30903
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    @thommck

    (So many great things in your post)

    We didn’t actually see Gretchen get lasered into oblivion the same way we saw it happen to Ross…

    As to what the others saw – Who knows? I personally would’ve looked away…

    z

    I wonder what exactly the Doctor will do in her name?

    #30904

    @wolfweed

    I wonder what exactly the Doctor will do in her name?

    I suspect it will be his failure to do something that will come to bite him in the arse.

    #30907
    TheatreGuy @theatreguy

    @thommck – Soldiers: I think the rejection of Journey Blue and the Doctors antipathy towards soldiers actually makes good sense with Peter Capaldi. Soldiers are trained to use logic and reason – and not to let their emotions get in the way of making decisions. Could you imagine Peter’s Doctor traveling with a companion who thought that way? he needs a Clara and an companion with empathy – otherwise he’ll lose all touch with humanity. Clara is in more ways representing the audience/human race than any of the previous companions of NuWho

    #30908
    thommck @thommck

    @wolfweed I got that exact same feeling as @pedant, that the Doctor will forget to honour his promise, which will in turn earn him the ire of Gretchin.

    Also, @wolfweed, you made me remember, Journey’s uncle seemed to be her commanding officer, and her brother was also with her in combat. I wonder why they included that family link. The uncle bit was rather unnecessary and didn’t seem to affect anything on screen (that we’ve seen so far).

    @bluesqueakpip & @pedant, slapgate –  I suppose it was more from the look on my kids faces that made me find it so shocking. Perhaps if it was River or Amy doing the slapping it would have seemed like more of a natural reaction but I don’t particularly feel Clara and 12 have that kind of relationship yet. I understand how it was a realistic action to take but maybe not the one that should have been taken :/

    #30909
    Pufferfish @pufferfish

    Hello, all.

    I just thought of a great reason why The Crack has come back – the Timelords are behind it. And if you’re a Timelord after beating the Daleks, why not find ways to crack out individually, through individual Daleks? The radiation/lasagna outburst problem would kill a Dalek, but obviously not a Timelord. Wonder if one slipped out somehow, and she calls herself Missy?

    If a Timelord, Missy is totally capable of coming through a crack at any point in the series and seeding herself back through all the other adventures (including being the woman in the shop). Who said nothing timey-wimey was happening yet?

    Also, THE QUESTION IS: why was The Doctor rummaging around that end of space, in the first place? If you’re a Doctor looking for Timelords (if only to keep them from cracking out before you figure out the best way for them to come back, if at all) you’d be in the vicinity looking for cracks, right?

    If we’re looking at meta-Moffat angles, like echoes of other series eg. Coupling, I’m also wondering why it has taken idiot me to mention that we have a ‘Scottish’ Doctor here, with a showrunner who’s already had a crack at the other famous Scottish doctor:

    Jekyll. It’s the fourth of Moffat’s series, so maybe it’s meta-crisis time and maybe we’re looking at Missy Hyde?

    I have more, but I also have a dog to walk. Thoughts?

    #30912
    stevethewhistle @steve-thorp

    @purofilion

     

    It’s not “talking to yourself”,

    it’s “Thinking aloud”!

    #30914
    Anonymous @

    Hi I’m new here but I have a theory about missy Just a thought, missy is river song and here’s why,

    when the all 13 doctor all helped in sending Gallifry to a pocket dimension and “the moment” time locking it, it made it a fixed point in time and so must always happen, when Clara told the time lords to help the doctor they must have somehow figured out that he cannot regenerate which would cause a big problem for them (being unable to know when it’s save to return), so what would they do?

    Being short on time and unable to “find” the doctor or pin point where he is they started to scan for time lord DNA thinking that the Doctor is the only time lord not trap like them, problem, river is part time lord!

    While unable to comfirm which signal is the doctor (or even which is a full time lord, only that both is very weak and both close to dying/dead) and which isn’t they sent regeneration energy to both source (which is why they have a bit of delay from when Clara asked for help and when they actually helped as river being dead have a weaker signal and so they helped her first) both river and the doctor regenerated at the same time, one becoming 12th and the other became missy.

    But then missy is still trap in the library so how did she do everything she did? Well the mental link she has with Clara was never closed! That’s why she could “save” the clock work bot, and somehow hack the antibody to “save” the girl instade of killing her, this is also why only people that have met the doctor AND Clara reach said “prardise”, they were “saved” so that they could eventually help save the doctor and set the gear in motion to truly turn him into a good man by making he remember all the promises and / or broken promises he made in season 8 just like he did to the DALEK rusty,

    You might think the doctor could always see and hear river as said in the name of the doctor, but, the only one that could always see and hear river was the 11th, not the 12th this is also why through the mental link with Clara missy could know how the new doctor sound like and was unsure if he pushed the bot or did the bot jumped on its own (Clara was not there!) while the doctor have no idea of her (missy/river) being there and all that she have done (“saving” everyone that the doctor “killed”)

    so how do everyone think of my theory? Please be kind this is the first time I’ve posted a theory on a forum and English is not my first language

    #30917
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Lol @Blueseakpip,

    Sorry my grammar does tend to go to pot when I am responding to posts. More so as I am usually responding here from my iPad and it’s got the worst keyboard system and I thend to end up typing blind. Also grammar check ie non existent.

    When I am on the computer I use word and generally use both the spell checker and it’s gammar corrector. But my main problem as you’ve probably noticed I will tend produce long rambling sentences. So my humblest apologies for any past or future faux pas.

    But on another note on the “slapgate” issues I think like a lot of who viewers I was initially shocked, but after some thought yes violence is not the way to win any argument but I think in this instance Clara let her frustration at the way the doctor has been behaving. To Clara this is not the way he behaves after being used to Mattdoc for so long.

    Some have commented on Clara’s apparent problem with the fact that the Doctor has changed especially as she has been in the doctors personal time stream and seen “all the faces of the Doctor”. I’ve been thinking that perhaps she only has vague memory of her time in the time stream.

    Just as a by the by does anyone know how the doctor and Clara got out of the time stream. That was always one of the issues that bugged me about the DOTD there was no explanation on how they got out it just jumped from the reveal of Hurt as the war doc to the opening of DOTD.

    Sorry for my usual rambling it’s sure probably annoyed someone lol.

    #30918
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @devilishrobby – yeah, iPads are a bit of a typing nightmare.

    does anyone know how the doctor and Clara got out of the time stream

    That one I do know. It was a ‘production problem’, otherwise known as ‘Matt Smith was on crutches’. The script has the Doctor making a dramatic leap for freedom, carrying Clara. On the day, the most Matt could manage was to pick Jenna Coleman up and stand there, trying not to fall over. And I bet that hurt; not to mention Jenna was no doubt thinking ‘please don’t drop me, please don’t drop me.’ 🙂

    Apparently Peter Capaldi met Matt Smith for the ‘advice from one Doctor to another’ session during this period. His reaction was something along the lines of ‘This show has left you on crutches and I’m more than twenty years older? Arrggghh!’

    Probably explains the chiropractor.

    #30919
    midnyt @midnyt

    Welcome DoctorBoe. I don’t think Missy is River. She just doesn’t feel like River to me. River would have called him her husband, not her boyfriend. Also, River’s still in the mainframe, she doesn’t have a body. The Time Lords would have had to download her into a body first to grant her a new regeneration cycle, and I just can’t see that happening. Nothing in the past has indicated that they were even aware that River had existed. BTW, even though River did have the ability to regenerate, she was still human. And if she was downloaded, then she loses the link to the mainframe and Clara. I don’t think she’s still connected to Clara. I feel she broke that link when she faded away and let the Doctor know Clara was still alive. I get the feeling that the link between Clara and River is something else, that we haven’t seen yet.

    #30921
    Anonymous @

    @pedant I always figure that slaps like the one the Dr fairly received provide interesting talk fodder.

    We can labour all we want about how Clara slapping the Dr is ‘abusive’ and not ‘jokey’ but it’s as you suggested: a cosmetic issue. By concentrating on the slap he received, and  believing that it’s a ‘serious thing’, the real stuff gets omitted. This was -in comparison to Clara’s minute size and shape – a bloody mosquito bite. Yes, the Doctor looks vexed, but he’s surprised @thommck  @devilishrobby not hurt. If we discuss this cosmetic issue, the problems of serious domestic violence are forever hidden and society never changes. To say, “it’s not a way to win an argument” sounds like we’re talking about a few kids in the playground. Sometimes they give each other a slap. You know what, that isn’t the problem Devilish!

    It’s as if discussing this (as other sites and facebook has done), we’re scrabbling around in the dirt playing at trying to be civilised. No wonder the Dr thought we were still children.

    Thanks @scaryb I’m sure I’m no-one’s favourite person, I’ve been cranky for a few days. Winter is gone and Summer’s here and I despise the heart. This means no more soup (which I love) and more salads (which I really can’t eat).

    As for River being Missy I’m with @midnyt -she would have referred to him as ‘husband’ or ‘sweetie’ which would make it obvious, of course. I think it’s something new. An old Clara is new?

    I loved the idea above @theatreguy that the Dr couldn’t take a soldier with him -she would have been too much like the Dr. Hence the ‘carer’ in more ways that one. She wouldn’t have slapped him. But Journey would say ‘yessir’ and salute which would mean he’d throw her out the Tardis.

    @pufferfish  this is very good – the idea there’s a crack that’s he ‘distracted by’ before he finds the ship belonging to Journey and Kai. So you believe Missy is a meta crisis Doc like Tennant’s?

    Kindest, puro.

    #30922
    Arbutus @arbutus

    Had my rewatch. Here are a few things I noticed the second time around.

    I really like the pacing of this episode. There’s just the right amount of story and action for the running time, it never feels slow, nor too frantic.

    I love how the Doctor is so soft spoken, almost gentle in his whole interaction with the military in the opening scenes: “It’s a roller coaster with you, isn’t it?” There is the tiny change of expression when he hears the word “demand” from Journey, almost an involuntary reaction. Don’t use that word if you want the Doctor’s help. And his smile as he says to Ross “Trust me” is actually scarier than his grim expression!

    Twelve’s gallows humour and dramatic flair actually remind me a lot of the Fourth Doctor. I enjoy the way he speaks: his pacey, rhetorical style works well with his voice, deeper and more gravelly than we have been used to (except for the War Doctor, of course!).

    I loved the extra edge in the Dalek’s voice after his repair. We thought he sounded just like a Dalek before now, but suddenly there is a familiar bite to the words, signaling that things have just gotten a lot scarier.

    About Slapgate (love this term, was it yours, @thommck?). It didn’t register strongly with me one way or the other the first time, but on second watch, after reading the comments about it, I would say that I’m leaning a little to the negative. It didn’t really feel necessary to me, Clara’s words were powerful enough, and her look had already gotten the Doctor’s attention before she slapped him. Myself, I have never hit anyone, although I have boiling over furious on a few occasions, so it might be my own sense that I can’t really imagine a feeling that would impel me to whack someone that I care about. I’m not sure that it should be a natural response for Clara either, who as a teacher would be expected to express herself in more appropriate ways. (Use your words, we all say repeatedly to our young children!)

    Once the Doctor realized that he could “do better” with the Dalek, I loved how really “Doctorish” be suddenly became– energized, persuasive, determined. And his dismay when the Dalek latched onto the negative rather than the positive within him was really well played. The incidental music accompanying Rusty’s destruction of the Daleks was interestingly doom-laden rather than the triumphant feel that we might have expected, emphasizing that, despite the saving of lives, this was not the desired outcome.

    @scaryb reminds us that the Doctor has turned people down before, but usually with more kindness, and that Eleven said that he always recognizes the right companion. I don’t think his manner was actually any harsher than Ten’s when he turned down Lady Christina. When he said “I just wish you hadn’t been a soldier”, right after his admission that the hatred the Dalek had seen within him was a failure, it felt like a quiet acknowledgement that a soldier would be the wrong person to have with him now. Because however nice and kind she might be (as he says), her instinct (or training or whatever) is to be aggressive (this was made clear in their very first scene together). In the past, the Doctor has been able to temper that quality in others; now he needs someone to temper it in him, especially after being told that he makes a better Dalek than an actual Dalek!

    #30924
    Pufferfish @pufferfish

    @purofilion Missy is either:

    Missy Hyde – a splinter of the Doctor (remember, he went into the time scar, too)
    A broken/amoral Tardis
    The Matrix
    A nasty Timelord who escapes from The Crack and retcons Doctor/Clara for REASONS
    A CAL-type uploader of souls (FYI don’t much like the ‘soul’ rhetoric, I like my Who secular)

    Who knows? I’ve got a few possibilities kicking around in my head but tragically can’t commit to one in particular.

    #30925
    Anonymous @

    as for Slapgate again, I’d say that just as it’s a criminal distraction to avoid an actual solution to a problem, it is easy to be distracted by little things:  there are real battles to fight (certainly and also, on the discrimination front, for out ‘pal’ the latest troll) with respect to domestic violence so we shouldn’t feel we have the time to be distracted by cosmetic ‘battles’. The issue is serious, but this one (the Slap) wasn’t. And no, it’s not some slippery slope, either.

    Having said all this, I don’t know why Moff wrote that in. If it means we end up discussing this type of so-called violence, we’ll be going down the wrong path. It’s not even a significant issue to use as a parable with which to teach our children.

    Kindest, puro

    #30926
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    @purofilion I apologise for the way I poorly phrased my thoughts on Clara’s slapping the doctor as I abohour domestic violence (I have unfortunately seen the results of it in my professional life too often). I was trying to say I think that Clara was reacting to the doctors attitude and demeanour as if he had slapped her and she was lashing back. Her whole body language to me spoke as if she was saying how dare you do that.

    I do however wish SM and the who production team had found another way of getting this concept across. The show has a large younger and impressionable audience and given her impassioned speech following the slap should have been enough I think some of its impact was lessened by the shock of seeing one of his companions committing such an act. Yes the Doctor needed a wake-up call but it did not need to be punctuated by an act of violence to get the message across.
    I do wonder though if SM added the slap just to provoke this sort of discussion/reaction as the show has in the past broached or had the doctor and his companions involved in things that have had a moral dimension.

    Apologies for any offence caused and regards devilish.

    #30927
    Anonymous @

    @devilishrobby not at all – I understand you opinion. You have nothing to apologise for. As I said earlier, I must  be cranky this week. But I don’t think it was an act of violence. By discussing even this, the real issues of serious domestic abuse are then overlooked in favour of easy to solve, cosmetic issues like Slapgate. Giving it oxygen (& I’m doin it!) we then don’t focus on the more seriously troubling aspects which occur in real life over and over. Kindest, puro

    #30928
    Anonymous @

    @devilishrobby you might be miffed I called you devilish in the middle of my post? Apologies, I was just trying to shorten your name -I wasn’t implying you’re ‘devilish’ in any way. So oops, I seem to be saying sorry a lot; because I need to, clearly. I can understand your point and I too wish she’d just talked to him instead of slapping -thing is…he’s a timelord, he can handle it. I couldn’t say, ‘he must have asked for it’ or ‘there’s no other way, he wouldn’t have listened’. But yep as @bluesqueakpip has said, ‘it’s a wallop between mates’ (paraphrased).

    #30929
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @devilishrobby    Honestly, if I had to guess, I don’t think the writers probably gave it a second thought. They were likely just thinking, “Clara upset with Doctor’s attitude, after he endangers all their lives only to prove that Daleks can’t be good, slaps Doctor, accompanied by mildly funny reply to question about What’s that look for?” Inter-species, same sex kiss, definitely intended to pull a bit of attention in. Slap upside the head to the Doctor, not so much.   🙂

    As I said, it didn’t much register with me on my first viewing, and had there not been a discussion, I might not have thought more about it. Having thought about it, I think I could have done without it. As @purofilion and others have said, Clara is a small woman and certainly didn’t really hurt the doctor, and there can be an argument for emotions running high. I’m not sure it warrants all the concern (although I might feel differently if I had been watching with small children, like @thommck).

    #30930
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @purofilion    Do you like cold soup? You must get beautiful tomatoes there, with all your sunshine, and I love a cold tomato and garlic soup. Sorry if that’s unbearably perky, only that I’m getting ready to say goodbye to summer here, and things like zucchini flowers and ripe tomatoes, and corn on the cob, and blueberries and peaches, and drinking rosé or prosecco on the patio… Okay, starting to cry now, better stop immediately. The men in the house get very excited about pumpkin pie and apple pie. I will be happy.

    #30931

    @devilishrobby @purofilion @thommck

    When I was about 11-ish, during a game of playground football, I jostled Debbie Galloway (who was minding her own business with some friends). The result was a full, straight-armed slap across my face. Debbie was a tad fiery and could have taken most of the boys in a fight despite being a good three inches shorter than any of them. I had the piss taken for the rest of the day about how this slap clearly meant that she fancied me.

    I am very much with @purofilion – to equate Clara’s slap with domestic violence is a false equivalence, just as much as suggesting Debbie’s right arm (I was neither the first nor the last to cop it) was the arm of a playground bully. Debbie was no bully – she just didn’t take crap from anyone – and Clara is no domestic abuser.

    Domestic violence is a very, very real thing – but it is also shockingly banal (as in the banality of evil). A flare up between two people under intense, life-threatening, pressure is not what it is.

    And I suspect your kids know more about getting a whop from the Girl With The Temper than they would ever let on to you.

    #30932
    Othrworldr @othrworldr

    Has anyone else noticed that the people who have went to “heaven” have made their own fate. Like taken their own lives they had a choice to go with the doctor or not. Ok so my theory about missy is she is either the sonic screwdriver or the tardis. I don’t believe my theory that much but I would like everyone else to go into the idea of the two that went to heaven had a choice.

    #30933
    Othrworldr @othrworldr

    Also I feel as though this doctor will be the one who gives river the sonic screwdriver because I’m pretty sure he has yet to do so.

    #30934
    Vastrax @vastrax

    After watching “Into the Dalek (8.02)” for a second time, I found the episode to be more satisfying than I had described in my review. However, after my second viewing, I realised that a lot of my complaints and objections were very small, indeed, and that I was perhaps a little too hard on this episode seeing as how it was very different from the New Who Dalek-episode paradigm.

    As such, I’d like to modify my original rating of 6.5/10 to 7.5/10. I’m looking forward to next Saturday’s episode!

    @othrworldr

    No, I actually hadn’t noticed that. And that is a very good observation! Moffat-thinking…

    #30938
    midnyt @midnyt

    @othrworldr
    I think this is the first time I’ve heard someone suggest that the screwdriver might be sentient and have it’s own personality. I hope not, cause Ten fried it once, and I’m pretty sure it has been lost in the past. I much prefer to think it’s more like my smartphone, and the TARDIS is it’s home computer.
    And what about the one given to River? Is that one a clone like the Doc Rose gets? Does it have the same personality as the Docs? heheheh. 🙂

    #30939
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip

    Spot on analysis of the Doctor. It brought 3 questions to my mind.

    How BIG is you brain?

    Are you really Steven Moffat?

    Is Missy the dinosaur?  Just kidding,  spoilers. 😉

    @arbutus

    It is hilarious. That is what made me scrap Dino Missy the first time.  Just TOO rediculous!  I pictured Missy at the helm of a time travelling dinosaur and could not stop laughing. So that was impossible. 

    But the Doctor collecting people changes things, because Missy Dino doesn’t have to do anything now.  She was just collected by the Doctor and that’s all.  There is a lot of circumstantial evidance to support this theory. 

    The only thing that says it’s impossible is, It would be TERRIBLE for the show (An Out of Show reason).   It would definitely be shocking 😯 , but that’s about all it would be good for.  Unless SM can do something great, which I won’t say he can’t do for sure. 

    So Dino Missy is my leading theory right now based on the available evidance (In Show reasons).

    Do I think every other possible theory is a better choice for DW the TVshow? Absolutely

    #30941
    geoffers @geoffers

    hello, everyone, again. just finished a third watch, after catching up on everything going on in here. while i don’t have much to add regarding “who is missy?” or “slapgate,” (or the justifiable banishing of the trolls, lol), i did come up with a disturbing idea…

    just before everyone is miniaturized, the doctor states that he doesn’t need “armed babysitters,” and ross is the one who replies, “we’re here to shoot you dead if you turn out to be a dalek spy.” is it possible that the doctor prejudged ross at that moment as someone reckless and mean, and “not worth trying to save,” in the event that something goes bad? i don’t believe this, myself, but given his cold and calculated “use” of ross once he’s attracted the attention of the antibodies, it is possible…

    i do believe the doctor is almost always in “analytical” mode, especially when there’s danger ahead for sure, and i could believe that he had already made up his mind about him, just from that one exchange. i.e., if there’s an order for people on the mission to “go,” ross jumped to the head of the line, while clara is probably #5. (or, scarier thought, clara is only #4, and the doctor will sacrifice her, too, as long as he makes it out?) keep in mind that dialogue in every episode is written to maximize information. (it’s to be hoped) there’s never really any “filler,” once the script is finalized, so that line isn’t there just so the doctor can have his snarky reply of “well, that’s a relief. i hate babysitters.”

    on a lighter note!… i wonder how the dalek came to be floating about in space? would the others jettison it, because it was a danger to them? was it the only survivor of a blasted ship, and if so, why no mention of a debris field when they picked it up? or… was it a “plant,” by the other daleks, to infiltrate the aristotle (or other human ships in the area)? journey did say they thought it was “deactivated.” now, i’m no military guy, but i might have thought “trojan horse” if i found a “deactivated” dalek floating about, anywhere near my ship!

    …and! why didn’t the dalek recognize the doctor (at once)?! i know claricle oswin erased knowledge of eleven from their databanks, but then, while he was stuck defending christmas for umpteen-hundred years, they certainly figured out who he was, again. right? rusty certainly figured out (or “remembered”) who the doctor is, once he shared his memories with it, though, so i guess the point is moot…

    🙂

    #30942
    Anonymous @

    @geoffers

    Most of your questions raise interesting things to watch out for concerning the Doctor.  But I don’t think we have the answers yet.

    You said you wanted to avoid Slapgate, but you might have shined new light on the subject. As you said, no line in the script is just put in as a throw away, so…

    “well, that’s a relief. i hate babysitters”

    Could be interpreted as the proverbial  “slap in the face”  from the Doctor at Clara first. 

     

    #30943
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    @geoffers I think I can answer the recognition part remember the final part of the regeneration occurred in the tardis so at this point in the cap docs timeline they haven’t seen each other yet therefore no possibility of recognition. Also remember the Dalek’s memory banks at least initially were a bit scrambled hence the “good” Dalek and probable reason for inability to identify the doctor.

    #30944
    Anonymous @

    @devilishrobby – good answer, the Daleks had never seen the new Doctor.

    I don’t know why I got into the slapgate thing.  I had no problem with it at the time. I like the Three Stooges so it didn’t register as anything but funny to me at the time. I liked it better that way.

    #30945
    Pufferfish @pufferfish

    To the Dalek’s body, the medical team inside it are basically bacteria. As any fule kno, bacteria can be sensed as friendly or hostile by the host body, depending on how the bacteria behave.

    Ross shot the floor of the channel the group was in, not caring or realising that it was a living part of the Dalek. The Dalek antibodies identified him as ‘unfriendly’ bacteria, and destroyed him for it. Hence the Doctor saying Ross was a dead man already. Cold, yes – but also Biology 101.

    #30946
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @purofilion, @Bluesqeakpip, I like this idea of a less humanised doctor. This definitely fits with what Vastra said about him ‘trusting them’ and ‘letting down his guard’, rather than trying to impress them. Someone once said eleven ‘imprinted on Amy like a little baby chick’, tens relationship with Rose got a little… intense. It might be nice to see a little more distance, space for the Doctor to be the Doctor. It’s worth noting that when the Master arrived, the Doctors loyalties were instantly torn…

    I love the books and the equations, as I said. I’ve always liked the Doctor as a professor. And now we might be moving away from the lonely god thing- once he is no longer so lonely (he gets his people back) he might start feeling less god-like. If he is no longer automatically the most intelligent person in the universe. I think, disturbingly, eleven’s growing arrogance (basically, run, etc) was a little like the high council- a result of being isolated?

     

    #30947
    Anonymous @

    @miapatrick was Dr Smith arrogant? I tend to think Ten-Doc was a bit and even Eccleston was also  with his “you planet of apes” etc… I saw Smith’s Doctor as trying to impress people because he felt alone and insecure (some of us can relate to that). Certainly, the Doctor could get angry: “there’s something you should never put in a trap” in talking to Angel Bob (I think that was his name). His reply: “me” and they all jump to avoid the Weeping Angels.

    Also, whirling about during The Pandorica Opens, addressing all the spaceships and saying “stop, you’re giving me a headache” (again, I paraphrase) showed a bit of gravitas and a wee bit of madness (in the delivery) but generally I saw an awkward ‘geek’  -all legs and arms; wide eyed; shaking hands furiously and kissing both cheeks (“is that what we do now?”). He still had that sense of wonder when he spoke to Craig’s son “stormageddon” and showed him the actual stars and then came back early to clean Craig and Sophie’s house. I just don’t remember arrogance  -unless I have selective memory -and I do! or else the arrogance was fine tuned and ever present -which it could be given they’re the same person!

    @arbutus oh, I love tomatoes. I didn’t grow so many this year. The heat meant everything went to seed too quickly. I am a fan of tomato soup but I’ve not had it cold. Strange, as I like vichyssoise, cold pumpkin soup/cucumber and get this: roasted red pepper soup with a splash of galiano liqueur. Hell on wheels, that tastes good!

    Kindest, puro

    #30948
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @purofilion- well, not arrogant all the time. I’m just thinking of his tendency to try and drive away enemies (sometimes successfully) just by telling them who is was. For example, in his first episode, ten drove away the badies by pressing a button, fighting a duel, and quoting legislation (the shadow proclamation at them. Eleven, in his first, drove them away by the same laws, but mostly by introducing himself to them. When eleven found the pandorica and started shouting at all the ships gathering above, I could rather see how everyone else involved could come to see him as the biggest threat to the universe. interesting thought about him trying to impress people, though. The whole ‘basically, run’ (which I think he said more than once) could possibly be out of nervousness, or a kind of bluff…

    #30953
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    The thing about Slapgate is that this isn’t unique for the modern Doctor at all, and I’m struggling to remember if it has been “a thing” before. Let’s face it – the Doctor was being a bit of an obstinate arse on the Dalek thing, and I can’t help but think that people like Jo Grant and Peri would have been constantly slapping their respective Doctors given half a chance. Sometimes the Doctor can be an unmitigated arse, and that’s why we love him.

    So – how does Clara’s slap measure up in the history of modern slaps? Time to find out with a random list of top slaps:

    River v the Eleventh Doctor

    Come on – this has to be the top of anyone’s chart from The Impossible Astronaut. A real headjerker which Alex Kinston took a certain delight in confessing took multiple takes because Matt Smith believes in suffering for his art. Or likes being slapped by beautiful women.

    Justification – Absolutely none. This Doctor was paying for the manipulations of his future self.

    That has to be a 10/10.

    Jenny v the Eleventh Doctor

    Shortly followed by this, which makes me believe we’re erring on the side of “likes being slapped by beautiful women”. After stealing this kiss from his saviour, he gets another real headjerker.

    Justification – Loads. OK he’s been rescued by cute-as-a-button Jenny who has come dressed as Mrs Peel from The Avengers. She’s not, however, that type of lesbian. And married. More than warranted. As I remember, this did cause a bit of a reaction, but more towards the Doctors attitude. But Eleven was exactly that kind of inappropriate idiot, and got the reaction merited.

    I’d give this 9/10

    Rose mum v the Ninth Doctor

    Our first slap. “Nine hundred years of Time and Space, and I’ve never been slapped by someone’s mother”. Nice wrist action from Jackie, who looks more than capable of decking the Ninth Doctor.

    Justification – Bit of a navigational boo-boo means Jackie thought her daughter was missing/dead. It’s understandable, and I think we can say she just got revenge for all the pre-BG mum’s who never saw their offspring again.

    7/10

    Martha’s mum v the Tenth Doctor

    “It’s always the mum’s” declares the Tenth Doctor after this slap. It’s a bit bloodless to be honest without much “oomph”.

    Justification – None, on the face of it. It’s a reaction to tittle-tattle from the Doctor’s arch nemesis.

    4/10

    I’d give Clara’s slap in this one a 6/10, maybe 7.

    I therefore declare the Eleventh Doctor the official slap magnet of the AG years. Unless anyone wants to dispute the rankings on this one.

    #30954
    wolfweed @wolfweed
    #30955
    thommck @thommck

    @Phasehift LOL, you don’t work for BBC Three do you? I can just see “Top 10 TV Slaps” on their schedule, although it would need some talking head reactions from d-list celebrities who know nothing about the show 🙂

    #30960
    Silverman @silverman

    @phaseshift – nice ‘list of top slaps’. I’ve missed much of ‘slapgate’ on here, but when I was reading everyone’s comments, Jackie slapping Ecclestone’s Doc was the one that I was going to mention (mostly because I’ve just done an all-nighter and worked my way through series 1 and 2, so have seen it recently…). As slaps in Doctor Who go it looked a real wallop.

    – Do you go online and pretend you’re a doctor?
    – I am a doctor!
    – Prove it! Stitch this, mate!

    Can’t say I thought too much about the slap in ‘Into the Dalek’ until these comments. I thought it was just supposed to be a joke, and I think I laughed a bit, although it seemed a bit needless. Clara talked to the Doctors to get them to change their minds about ‘the moment’ , so I couldn’t understand her doing it here. Am I alone in thinking that it almost contradicts Clara’s character as a modern, intelligent woman if she’s going to start going all ‘Nora Batty’ about differences of opinion. I’d have thought her character would be more likely to scold the Doctor. Unless of course that wouldn’t work with this Doc…

    BTW – Apologies for referring to answers given waaay back in this thread, in the comments below…

    @chickenelly – I’m not really seeing social awkwardness in this Doctor, I just think he doesn’t care about how he’s perceived. I like the explanation – mentioned by both @purofilion and @bluesqueakpip – that he just doesn’t need to impress anymore as he has his own family out there somewhere, and is moving on from the more charismatic preceding incarnations.

    Also, while what happened to the old Amy in ‘The Girl who waited’ was horrible, it wasn’t the Doctor’s fault was it? I forget why he couldn’t have her on the Tardis but I seem to remember he had some reason. I could be wrong but I don’t remember it as malice. I have issues with Amy in this episode – she makes a mistake and turns on the Doctor and blames him for it. I know it’s a horrible fate, but she should accept responsibility. She travelled with the Doctor, she knows the risks – I really didn’t like how all that hate spilled out.

    Oh, and I really like the theory about Missy being a version of the Tardis (put forward by @pufferfish? )…

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