Into the Dalek

Home Forums Episodes The Twelfth Doctor Into the Dalek

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  • #30811
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @fonsini

    Actually, it’s not that I see it as laughable, but I do disagree. Here are my grounds for disagreeing. Not being British, I can’t speak in any real way to the leftist agenda of the BBC. But based strictly on the show itself, here’s what I see.

    Clara spotted Danny, a new teacher, young, good looking, and decided to take a shot. Since she’s pretty assertive, she didn’t take his first, obviously shy “no” for an answer. I wish I could have been so confident when I was that age! As to having just met him, she was asking him on a date, not proposing marriage. She probably thought she’d get a shot in before anyone else beat her to it!
    Yes, he’s black. Why is that relevant? Also, I took the crying as a response not to the question “Did you ever kill anyone?” but to the question “Have you ever killed anyone who wasn’t a soldier?” or something to that effect. It was pretty obvious that there is some other memory to which he is responding here, above and beyond just the norms of the military experience. Although in and of itself, post traumatic stress disorder is a legitimate concern, affecting loads of people: for instance, Romeo Dallaire, the head of the UN peacekeepers in Rwanda, who later attempted suicide in response to the horrible things that happened there.

    As to UNIT, the Doctor has always been disrespectful of authority. His relationship with the Brig was with the man, not the title or the uniform. I don’t see how the notion of the Dalek (an alien killing machine) turning on other alien killing machines is in any way anti establishment, unless you are suggesting that “establishment” here on Earth is made up of a lot of mass murderers (which would put you a lot further to the “left” than me!).

    We have already discussed on here the fact that the doctor turning down Journey as a companion was not necessarily meant to be viewed as the right choice. So I don’t think the writers are trying to get us to agree with the Doctor here.

    Again, I can’t speak to British politics or British government. I have always enjoyed British music, films, and television, as have many people all over the world. I might well believe that there are some creative people who do have a leftist viewpoint, but I don’t think that it is something that can be proven based on the points you have made.

    I would just like to add that it is pretty offensive to suggest that anyone who disagrees with you has been brainwashed, or had their thinking “altered”. We all have our views influenced all the time by lots of things, but I have held to my fundamental views pretty strongly for about, oh, thirty years now. Doctor Who probably hasn’t had much to do with that!

    #30812
    cpgolfer @cpgolfer

    I wonder if clara’s interest in mr pink is a sign of her departure or his entrance into the doctors world which could help him with whatever he’s dealing with he reminds me of the 1oth doctor or do we call him the 11th now.

    #30815
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Last week they combusted Margaret Thatcher but I can’t really agree that there is a leftist agenda this week.
    It’s a shame, because we could do with furthering the cause, seeing as the establishment were all replaced by robot duplicates over 30 years ago…

    As for dull, boring and crap…

    #30816
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @fonsini – far be it from me to interrupt your trolling with mere facts, but Doctor Who’s Coal Hill School (as any fule kno) is in Shoreditch, and has been since 1963.

    The ethnic makeup shown is that of Shoreditch in 2014. Someone did their research (unlike you) and knows, for example, that the Muslim and Sikh pupils would be a small minority, that most pupils would be white (and you’d have no idea where they came from until they speak), that about a third would be ethnically Afro-Caribbean or mixed race and that there’d certainly be a couple of ethnic Chinese kids in there.

    As to Clara immediately chasing Danny – you need to take your racist blinkers off, mate. Danny Pink is quite stunningly good looking; if single, he’d need to beat any unattached members of staff off with a club. It’s entirely realistic that both the School Secretary and a teacher would be angling for a date on his first day. You’d need to get in there fast…

    #30820
    TheatreGuy @theatreguy

    @smeglennon have you not enjoyed the show since it game back in 2005? I’m intrigued because if you felt the Danny/Clara stuff you must have hated the RTD era

    #30821
    Anonymous @

    @fonsini — It’s a real shame that speakyourbranes is no longer updating or I would have certainly passed your post along as a particularly doozy example of idiotic Daily Mail-ese. I am truly hoping that you are in fact some kind of bot that automatically generates ‘down with this sort of thing Col Bufton-Tufton (retired)’ reactionary drivel because I’ll find it truly depressing if you are in fact a real person.

    And while we’re on the subject of trolls…

    @smeglennon — this site is for engaged discussion of the episodes in question in an informed and constructive way. Not the usual old ‘wah wah Moffat is smelly wah wah’ diatribes. I think you’ll find Outpost Gallifrey has got that covered. That doesn’t mean you have to like the episode, of course. If you look above, you’ll see plenty of constructive criticism above. Please try to rise to that level, or please just don’t bother at all.

    If in further doubt, please take a scan of the etiquette section.

    #30825
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    For the avoidance of doubt, I’ll point out that I binned @smeglennon ‘s carefully crafted raft of clichés because, after last week, I couldn’t be arsed to do anything else. Just to avoid the blame being placed on any other mod or administrator.

    Phaseshift – Here, and happy to help.

    #30830
    TheatreGuy @theatreguy

    @phaseshift APPLAUSE

    #30833
    Anonymous @

    @phaseshift — thanks for that. I’ll admit I was very close to doing the same thing myself but you’ve saved me the angst of doing so.

    You would make a good Dalek….

    #30835
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @scaryb – agreed. Time Lords, basically, seem to be trained in utilitarian ethics. What seems to be happening post Day of The Doctor is that the Doctor’s much more aware that the system of ethics he’s been taught isn’t necessarily the best one.

    Bonkers theory alert: the Doctor’s not Clara’s boyfriend. He’s her student. Hence his references to ‘do I pay you?’ and ‘you need a raise’.

    #30836
    ABXY @abxy

    Bless all of you, scaring off the trolls like… Something that scares off trolls.

    #30837
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Aristotle taught that to achieve a virtuous and potentially happy character requires a first stage of having the fortune to be habituated not deliberately, but by teachers, and experience, leading to a later stage in which one consciously chooses to do the best things.
    z

    #30840
    zeitgeis @zeitgeis

    We are told by one member here that our little show has been captured by anti-military leftists and is engaging in brainwashing us, presumably because The Doctor rejects Ms Blue’s request to join him on his adventures. This, off course, is insufficient since Clara has been aggressively courting Danny Pink, himself an ex-military guy. My guess is that Mr Pink will soon be flying with The Doctor due to the fact that Capital’s doctor cannot resist her. (Nor could I)

     

    I hope my poor little brain can resist this pernicious effort to make a leftist out ofc me  🙂

    #30843
    JimmyP @jimmyp

    Hi all,

    I’ve been a long-time lurker here, enjoying the bonkers theorising and the phenomenal ability of people to flag stuff up that I missed on first (second, third etc) viewings.  But this episode actually made me sign up and comment; partly of course because it was brilliant (exceptional writing delivered by, IMO, one of the best directors in the business) but also because for the first time ever I actually predicted what might happen in Doctor Who!

     

    At the end of the last series I was thinking about what potential developments in the Capaldi era.  One of my very first thoughts was that a good direction for the narrative would be to give Clara a boyfriend, given that her relationship with Capaldi’s Doc was likely to be far less romantically ambiguous.  That boyfriend would ground her somewhat, as well as rounding out her personality now she’s not The Impossible Girl (TM).

    I also thought that a nice twist in the relationship would be that Clara’s new boyfriend turns out to be an ex-soldier. This, I felt, would make for some interesting discussions and potential clashes with the Doctor, who (as discussed above) has a very jaded view of the military and warfare. I envisioned him meeting the Doctor and recognising a fellow soldier, as others have before, leaving Capaldi’s Doc uncomfortable and defensive.

    So two out of two so far.  But the piece de resistance would be if the third bit of my fantasy storyline comes true.

    I thought a potentially neat (/nasty) swerve would see the lovely, wonderful, reformed ex-soldier fall madly in love with Clara, and her with him, only for it to transpire in the end that he was the real ‘big bad’ of the series, potentially The Master, or (even better) The Valeyard…

     

    I’m feeling pretty good about the first two parts of my daft fantasy coming true (although I wish I’d written them down somewhere as evidence).  Anyone think I’ve got a shot with the third though??

     

    #30844
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @theatreguy @jimthefish

    I’ll take a bow, and thanks.

    I don’t particularly like the approach, but I think it may be beneficial for some people to learn they can take the time to type what they want, but ultimately we have a singular BIG RED BUTTON that can send their ill thought-out mindwank to the ether.

    For those concerned by the welfare of our trollish friends, I’ll point out that I have PM’d @smeglennon to invite him to partake in a private conversation on etiquette.

    We do try.

    #30845

    @fonsini

    You doubtless have many interesting and thoughtful things to post.

    Please feel free to start.

    #30846
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @jimmyp – if Danny Pink’s the Master, he’s really, really upset about what he’s done. Which would be fun, in keeping with this episode’s ‘change is always possible’ theme, and a bit of a different approach to the Master’s character. 😉

    By the way, anyone noticed that there’s yet another bit of evidence for Clara’s unconscious telepathy/empathy? She knows that Danny kills people then cries about it afterwards – without anyone telling her.

    #30847
    MidnightGuurl @midnightguurl

    @IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan she did say “I’m sorry I’m so so sorry, I don’t think I know who you are anymore” at the end of the first episode.

    P.s sorry, I don’t know if anyone replied to this earlier 🙂

    #30848

    @midnightguurl

    Ta! – I was sure I’d heard it.

    I think this is setting up for some role-reversal conflict between Clara and the Doctor.

    #30849
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @jimmyp    I think you do have a shot. Sadly, because (as expressed above) I’d rather not have things go that route. What’s that you say? They don’t write the show just for me? Wash your mouth out now, sir, you’ve clearly been brainwashed.  🙂

    #30850
    MidnightGuurl @midnightguurl

    @IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan I think that the relationship between the doctor and Clara is definitely gonna change and be very interesting.

    It could be a kind of father daughter relationship which we haven’t really seen for a while and I think it’s an interesting change.

    #30852
    phoebe-phire @phoebe-phire

    From this episode, I’m thinking that Missy is Charlotte Abegail Lux from FotD. There’s also the use of real faces on the library nodes connection to DB. (If someone has already said this apologies, I’ve read most posts).

    @Purofillion could be, maybe Clara is another Clariccle and unware of  her true time age, thinks she’s only 27?

    @devilishrobby, I saw the crack, thought hmmm, then dismissed as over-active imagination – but now…

    Enjoying reading all your theories, agree with so many.

    #30853
    Fonsini @fonsini

    As I suspected – a lost cause, but occasionally it’s necessary to give you Blissninny’s a reality jolt even if it is a case of “Pearls before swine”.

    quite frankly if you don’t believe that a biased racial quota system is being applied when these roles are cast then you must be delusional.

    #30854
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @fonsini     I believe that it is “delusional” to ignore facts that are presented to you when they don’t support your own argument. And I believe that it is beyond inappropriate to reference that horrific and tragic murder in this context. Several of us did you the courtesy of engaging with you on a rational level. I for one won’t repeat the experiment. A lost cause, indeed.

    #30855
    Silverman @silverman

    Wow. Was slack-jawed while reading Mr Fonsini’s diatribe, and – considering I should be working – was steeling myself for having to write back and correct some incredibly warped and paranoid ramblings – so thanks to @cathannabel and @bluesqueakpip for dealing with it so much better than I ever could.

    @bluesqueakpip @scaryb @whoisthedoctor and many others…

    I wasn’t that bothered about the way the Doctor dealt, or rather, coldly-used Ross’ death – I winced certainly, and it’s not how I would want to be, but as a character this Doctor is proving to be quite fascinating. I’d go so far as to say the one thing he did that I really didn’t like was to flatly reject Journey (or is it Jenny?I’ve seen both on this thread and have only seen it once so far) when she wanted to travel with him. Using Ross’ death as he did, but with no Ten-style apologies was simply coldly pragmatic. He lacked for bedside manner to say the least, but was more concerned about the group as a whole.

    Some people have mentioned a slightly changed attitute to the military, and him acting in an un-Doctor-like way. I’m not really that familiar with the first 8 Doctors beyond what I’ve read and clips I’ve seen, but aren’t I correct in saying that he’s had varied characters throughout his many incarnations – is this the darkest? Past all the front I don’t believe he’s ‘evil’ at all – just harsh. I don’t think he pushed humpty, either.

    When 8 regenerated into the War Doctor, it was deliberate – he chose the characteristics he needed for the challenge ahead. It was stated, or at least implied that all other changes are random. Are his regenerations therefore a response to situations/experiences that he’s been through? So he can’t control the process, but it’s like an automatic biological process where the body comes up with a ‘solution’ or ‘antidote’ to what ails it?

    In the ones I’m familiar with 9 was very ‘take-charge’, had little need for niceties when dealing with people who weren’t, er, nice, and was bruised after the Time War. It took Rose to save him from that. In response when he regenerated he became more of a pacifist, at least until the end as 10 abhorred violence. After ‘Living too long’ was it any surprise that his next incarnation was more carefree and youthful (at least on the outside). So is 12 a reaction to that? both physically and mentally? Or like 9, a reaction to the trauma of defending Christmas for so long?

    Now that I’ve read that through it sounds either completely obvious, or odd, but it’s taken me too long to type!

    Either way, this new Doctor is colder than 9, and a darker, more complex, more cutting Timelord than we’ve seen for quite some time. Who’s his most comparable incarnation? I watched 7 as a kid, but couldn’t really tell you anything about his character.

    #30856
    Silverman @silverman

    @fonsini – as you will no doubt have gauged by now, no-one on here is going to agree with you. It’s pointless for you to continue trying to turn us to your paranoid musings, just as it’s painful for us.

    #30859
    Anonymous @

    @fonsini — I’ve edited the most offensive material out of your post but consider yourself warned that any further instances will be completely deleted.

    And as @silverman says, you no doubt realise that no one here is remotely interested in your political opinions.

    Jeez, we’re really getting them tonight.

    #30860
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @fonsini – I suspect I have considerably more experience with the reality of terrorism than you do.

    You need to study more history; if you did you would know that – until 2005 – most terrorist attacks in the United Kingdom were carried out by white people.

    As to what Mr Foley did or did not say before he was murdered: being forced to make propaganda statements, possibly under the threat of a fellow prisoner being murdered if you don’t comply, is so common that training for capture includes ‘I am being coerced’ signals.

    But to use his coercion and murder for your own propaganda; you should be ashamed.

    #30861
    Anonymous @

    @fonsiniForced Racial Integration 

    Translation:  “Read No Further!”  👿

     

    #30862
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    @fonsini You have no place here. Everything you post from now on will be added to the “Trash” pile as soon as we spot it. So there is really no point in posting any more.

    This is a forum for discussions about Doctor Who episodes. Whatever is going on in your head, however tenuously related to Doctor Who, should be posted elsewhere. I could find several sites you’d be happier on with a quick internet search.

    I’m not going to delete you, because I want to keep a record of you (and your pathetic yahoo email address which was probably registered today). As a website owner I have, unfortunately, an obligation to do that sort of thing as you seem a slightly unhinged individual. Is there a real life Doctor I could call for you?

    To all the mods, don’t delete anything posted by @fonsini, just add it to Trash so we have a record of all the posts. Just in case the authorities come calling.

    #30863
    Timeloop @timeloop

    Hello everybody.

    I seem to be one of the few in his forum who thought this episode was just ‘meh’. Not terribly bad but not really outstanding either.

    I can’t put my finger on why. I don’t think PC is another league as an actor than 9, 10&11 (as someone said in this thread). To me this episode is a bit of what people complained about in “JttCotT”. Some shots where obviously created that way to save money, hopefully for other episodes. I really hope that the Doctor does not return to what it used to be let’s say 1965 because those episodes are a pain in the a** to watch if you didn’t watch them as a child back then. (Please take this statement with a pinch of salt… -had a feeling I needed to include that)
    The music in the intro is getting on my nerves already, not a grower for me so far.
    But all in all that’s okay, I have experienced it before and know that Doctor Who is customized for a huge amount of people and it is therefore impossible to please them all – all the time.

    @confusedpolarity Your idea that Missy are Mistakes collected by the Doctors consciousness is a good one and reminds me of another spin of the Dreamlord.

    @arbutus Rory said once in Vampires in Venice that the Doctor makes people dangerous to themselves when he is around.

    @scaryb He could not have saved the brother because he needs to stay relative to their time. It’s the same reason he could not fetch the Master in the End of Time.

    @janetteb Your one post asking if Clara would like Doctor Who reminded me of one episode of Buffy were she is told she made it all up and is kept in a psychiatric facility for some reason….

    @devilishrobby He didn’t say better Dalek. He said good Dalek.

    @fivefaces ‘A good man goes to war’ -> That was 11, not 9. I had the same thought. They already said that the Doctor was a good man. But that he needs many rules to be one, just as you said.

    ‘She is my carer. She cares so I don’t have to’ Is a pretty good line to start if you want to characterize this new Doctor. Not explaining the Ross spared him some despair but gave him hope for a second, that was kind of kind of the Doctor in a way, don’t you think? But then again I don’t think that that was the reasoning of the Doctor.
    Also funny enough we had a similar shot in S5E2 The beast below (slimy stuff when they were fed to the whale). The Doctor (12) even says ‘behold the belly of the beast’. Is this going to be a season that repeats stuff to qualify the use of the same face? A lot of repetitions ‘it rings a bell’? We have made out quite a lot of that going on in just two episodes, don’t you think?

    • The similar shot of heaven/the two streams facility
    • Missy who reminds us of other characters (though, granted, various ones)
    • Same face used twice (if that really was Matt’s face in the first episode, that was used twice too)
    • That thing that leaked radiation reminded a few of us of the tears in time and space

    I am sure we have noticed more but you get the point. Maybe this happens on purpose? Just as some were angry that Clara seemed to save the Doctor every time and it turned out to be the point of it all. Maybe the repetition is that, too.

    P.S: There is one more thing and thankfully I could still edit to add it:

    The name of the woman who is sacrificing herself so Clara can get up there quick enough: Her first name is Gretchen. There is someting in Faust I (from Goethe) called Gretchenfrage. Wikipedia does not have an English entry, so I don’t know if you have heard about it. However there is a Wiktionary entry stating this:

    Compound of Gretchen (diminutive of the given name Margarete) and Frage “question”. In reference to Goethe’s <i>Faust</i> (published 1808), where the character of Gretchen asks the protagonist, who is secretly in league with the devil, <i>wie hast du’s mit der Religion?</i> “what is your take on religion?”.

    There are three takes on the Gretchenfrage:

    1. A question as to the addressee’s religiosity or belief in God.
    2. Any question going directly to the core of an issue.
    3. A crucial question that usually has a difficult or unpleasant answer.

    Is this just a coincidence or did the writers of this episode actually know about it? ‘Is he mad or is he right?’ ‘Is this worth it?’  Both of these questions fit the last two descriptions. What are the odds that character got that name by accident?

    #30864
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @silverman – if I had to guess, I’d say that the Capaldi Doctor is reacting to finding out that he was willing to kill the Time Lords when there was another way, BUT, he didn’t kill them.

    So he’s moving on from the Smith Doctor’s unconscious identification of himself as a ‘monster’ constrained by rules.

    Good men don’t need rules. Today is not the day to find out why I have so many.

    and

    Every lonely monster needs a companion.

    Contrition, repentance, reparation. The Doctor’s done all that – and since he’s a Time Lord, his reparation includes undoing the evil deed. Now he’s on to change. If he’s not actually a monster, is he a good man? Can he be a good man?

    Is a change from evil to good always possible?

    If it is, it has to apply to the Daleks as well. I’ve always rated Davros as the most evil being in the Whoniverse; he created a race of beings that have no free will, can’t do anything but choose evil. Evil as engineering – as we see in this episode, they’re designed so that any flash of insight, any hint that there might be another way, is promptly suppressed, edited out, or – in extreme cases – exterminated. The Daleks cannot be good. Now, that’s real evil.

    Here we’ve finally got a Dalek who knows it isn’t a good Dalek, but hates evil. Like Dalek (seriously stoned) Caan, it can’t do good deeds. But it knows who it needs to kill.

    But the Doctor, surely, has to be more than that. He has to have some definition for himself that’s a bit bigger than ‘whatever I am, I’m NOT a Dalek.’

    He has to be more than someone who knows who he needs to kill.

    #30865

    @midnightguurl

    The question of course being who is father and who is daughter. Who is Pink, who is Blue?

    #30867
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @silverman

    You have been bringing up a lot of interesting points, and this is another one. I once hypothesized a connection between new incarnations and events that preceded them. I think it’s really possible to make a case for that connection. As just one example, after Three is stranded on Earth for so long, working with the military and all their rules, Four is a completely new kind of Doctor, rebellious, spontaneous, making up the rules as he goes along.

    I think Twelve embodies the qualities of a number of his predecessors. He harks back to Nine in that he is harder, tougher, less emotionally open, than Ten or Eleven. (Although looking at that I could make an argument for Ten being “harder on the inside”!) But like Seven, it seems that he can be manipulative. Like Six, he’s comfortable with rudeness and insults. He has some of the bold physical quality of Two and Four, particularly Four, and also a certain dramatic flair that reminds me of Four. There is an authoritarian quality that he shares with One and Three. We had a glimpse of the scientist this time, in his fascination with the idea of going inside the Dalek. And he seemed quite eager to be “shrunk” even before he knew who the patient was!

    I’m not really seeing Five yet, although somebody mentioned some parallels that I can no longer remember (boy, there were a lot of posts last week!). Not seeing anything of Eight, who was a very open and positive Doctor. As we’re only two episodes in, I’m still hoping to see more science nerd, and more of the youthful quality that a number of Doctors have had, and I’m sure that Capaldi can bring out in his own way. But I expect that, for now, the writing is focused more on contrast with the previous couple of Doctors, so we might see less youthful bounce for awhile.

    Great points, @bluesqueakpip. I have always loved that line about good men not needing rules. While the Doctor has often been happy to flout other people’s rules, he has usually been concerned about following his own. We’ve seen the results when he hasn’t (The Waters of Mars). Sometimes our determination of our “goodness” comes through determining what exactly our rules are.

    #30868
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @timeloop   No, I don’t think he meant either kindness or cruelty in his interaction with the doomed Ross. Kindness is definitely not to the fore in this Doctor. But I am guessing that, over time, the kindness will prove to be in there, exactly as it did with the First Doctor.

    And that is fascinating stuff about Gretchenfrage. I really loved the “is he mad or is he right?” question, partly because, in reference to the Doctor, the answer is so clearly “both”, but also because to ask the question is not to realize that “both” might be the answer. (Is this making sense? I sound like Vizzini the Sicilian now!)

    #30869
    Vastrax @vastrax

    I found “Into The Dalek (8.02)” to be fairly entertaining, as it dealt with a topic that has been widely discussed throughout Doctor Who reviews on the Internet: the Twelfth Doctor’s morality. I knew that Capaldi’s incarnation was to be darker, and more cynical than his predecessor, Matt Smith, but I’d no idea he’d be so utilitarian. When Ross was killed by the antibodies, I was in utter shock! I’ve never, ever seen the Doctor lead a human being to his/her death so deliberately, and with little care after the fact. In fact, I’ve never even considered it.

    Also, this episode gave a little bit more meaning to that age-old phrase that we’ve all been hearing since 2005: “You would make a good Dalek.” Would he? After this episode, I’m almost absolutely certain that the Doctor can be much, much worse than any Dalek. When the Doctor sees something that he doesn’t like, he stops it: whatever the cost. You’ll never see this with the Daleks. They’ll run, and hide to prevent the eradication of their kin. You will never see this with the Doctor. He’s always been this way, and it looks like that’s how it’s always going to be. It’s worth noting, though, that I found this Doctor to be more ruthless when confronting someone who was about to sacrifice himself/herself in his name.
    As far as the overall long-term plot (it is to be assumed) goes, I’m not entirely convinced. I felt like they could’ve left the part with Missy until the end, and maybe even made it a little bit shorter. Instead, they cut to a new scene and ruined the climax. Perhaps they could have left it until the very end, showing only when she (I’m not sure what her name is) awoke.

    On the more positive side of things, Danny Pink could be great character to have in the TARDIS, with his also questionable morality as a soldier (because he’s taken innocent lives, or so we think), and could also raise some more questions about our new Doctor’s way of thinking. Except… Danny Pink is a ‘man who regrets’, like the Eleventh Doctor. He probably did kill an innocent, and his regret combined with Clara’s persuasion might impact the Twelfth Doctor’s personailty, morals, and ethics somehow. I have so many ideas regarding Danny Pink, but I’m afraid there’s only so much spare time I have.

    Overall, I’d admired this episode for it’s crucial comparison between the Doctor and the Daleks (for the development of Capaldi’s Doctor). Also, it’s humour was in good taste, and we now have a romance in the story between Danny and Clara — I mean, it’s obvious… Isn’t it? However, it did use a recycled idea, from the last season (!!!), and even then it could have used a little more action and backdrop in this Humans vs. Daleks war. On top of that, we didn’t need Missy to remind us that these people were being sent to her little paradise, and the timing for that scene completely killed the action that we were witnissing even moments before. Also, the character that was being sent to Missy’s Heaven was, more-or-less, significant and unknown. I could go on, and on about the flaws with the Missy scene, but I’m afraid it’s come time to conclude this review.

    I’d rate this about a 7/10 (10 being a great episode of Doctor Who, 1 being “Love & Monsters (2.10)”), so it’s on par with some of the non-significant episodes of Doctor Who. It was a wee bit of a dissapointment after watching “Deep Breath (8.01)”, but I loved how we discovered more about this new Doctor’s persionality! So far, Peter Capaldi’s been brilliant, but I’d say that the basic “going-inside-a-dalek” storyline should have been left for a later date, maybe even for another series or two.

    Bottom line: Peter’s Doctor is absolutely fantastic, and I’ll certainly be tuned in next week!

    #30870
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @vastrax       Welcome. Nice user name! I enjoyed your comments (although I’m going to argue with some of them). I couldn’t agree more about the new Doctor and how fascinating I am finding the development of his character.

    I’ve never, ever seen the Doctor lead a human being to his/her death so deliberately, and with little care after the fact.
    In fact, the Doctor did not lead Ross to his death. Ross died because he injured the Dalek. The Doctor tried to stop him. However, this doesn’t negate the coldness of the Doctor’s response to his death, which was startling. (Agreeably so for me, as I like my Doctors a little ambiguous!)

    They’ll run, and hide to prevent the eradication of their kin.   Not sure I agree with this, I have always thought of the Daleks as pretty ruthless about using their forces in whatever way necessary. But there may well be loads that I’ve forgotten. Can you remember the episodes that might show this? However, the Doctor certainly made no attempt to convince the soldier not to sacrifice herself, that they would find another way. And I agree that Doctor/Dalek comparisons have always been fascinating.

    Regarding the scene with Missy. I actually think we did need this scene, because it wasn’t at all clear (at least to me) what kind of people were being taken to Missy’s “heaven”. It now seems that it is people who sacrifice themselves in some way. This would appear to be important information that we didn’t have before. I liked that the scene was very brief (not sure how they could have made it shorter, really) because I prefer less emphasis on the series arc where possible.

    I’m not sure what I think about Missy, I wish she didn’t look quite so psycho-Nanny, she feels a little camp to me at times (although her appearance this week was less so). But I must say, if I ever go to heaven, I really hope someone will be there to greet me with a nice pot, offering me tea!

    #30871
    Silverman @silverman

    @arbutus – thanks for listing the other Doctors’ characteristics. So do you see this incarnation as some sort of mixture of the previous 11/12? I’d heard comparisons with 7, but interesting to see the others. I’m leaning at the moment to this being an incarnation all of it’s own, just a reaction in some way to the life he’s lead in the 11 incarnation – be that either in demeanor, or response to the war on Christmas, but it’s an interesting angle that he might be some sort of ‘merged’ Doctor.

    Can’t remember who said it, but I also like the notion that he’s almost been ‘reset’ to something comparable to Hartnell’s Doctor.

    @bluesqueakpip – good 11 quotes, and I have to admit I’d missed a lot of 11 calling referring to himself as a monster. It was easy to see 11 as someone not in control/clowning around, but Matt Smith -whatever I thought of some of the stories in series 6 & 7 – was always superb at portraying an old soul within a young body – it’s been said everywhere before, but he really had it in the eyes.

    I like the idea that one of the experiences that’s shaped this incarnation is that realisation that he took the ‘weak’ way out originally, instead of pushing for another way instead of killing. To play Devil’s advocate though, I always thought he seemed at peace at the end of the 50th, almost ‘lighter’…

    @arbutus – I don’t see this version of the Doctor as being evil or even particularly unkind. Yes, he doesn’t sugar-coat anything, or go out of his way to comfort people, but aside from being abrasive what has he actually *done* that’s unkind (as opposed to saying unkind things)? I may be missing something obvious (as a caveat I’ve only seen the first two eps once each), but I can’t really remember him actually doing anything bad. Indeed, he showed vulnerability when asking Clara if he was good, and I also thought I detected sadness in his eyes at the death of the soldier who sacrificed herself, and maybe as he was saying ‘no’ to Journey at the end.

    @vastrax – As for Ross’ death, correct me if I’m wrong but I thought that Ross accidentally triggered the anti-bodies and the Doctor was just (coldly) making use of his death – he didn’t cause it, or encourage him to do it (as far as I remember…). I’d also defend Danny Pink – his morality doesn’t seem to be in question at the moment.

    #30872
    Anonymous @

    @timeloop

    @confusedpolarityYour idea that Missy are Mistakes collected by the Doctors consciousness is a good one and reminds me of another spin of the Dreamlord.

    I agree with you both.

    And now for the terrible news… wait for it… wait for it…

    Missy IS the Dinosaur! 😆

    If the Doctor is collecting people, orgcy-s (@pedant), and creatures he feels responsible for, then the dinosaur is a candidate too. He brought the dinosaur to 1880 England, which lead to its death.

    So it is actually the Doctor collecting the creatures/people, and not Missy.

    However, I don’t know how SM can possibly make a good story arc out of a dinosaur in lady form.

    So, I’m really hoping for the Master now.

    #30873
    Vastrax @vastrax

    @arbutus

    Thank you for the compliment!

    With Ross, I knew that he injured the Dalek, but I thought that was the Doctor gave him caused the antibodies to kill him, though I’m not entirely sure how.

    Also, you asked me to cite an episode where the Daleks ran away. When I wrote that comment, I was thinking of one in particular: “Victory of the Daleks (5.03)”. But, I suppose that they (also) sort-of got a little scared in “The Asylum of the Daleks (7.01)”, and got the Doctor to do their dirty work. Though that isn’t running away or hiding, it’s still fear of eradication; whether it was of an individual Dalek or of their entire race. Those are the only episodes that I can think of.

    As for the whole Missy thing, I’ve read tonnes of theories on what might be going on, and so I suppose I wouldn’t need reminding. I suppose it was more of a personal thing, really… But, still, I think it completely killed the action in that scene. I’m not exactly sure what they should’ve done; it’s almost indescribable — but, hey! I suppose that’s why I’m not making Moffat’s millions (or however much money of pounds/dollars). And, I, like you, prefer a minimal emphasis on the story arc. Though this may not be the case with you, I like to get these little hints here and there on why might be happening. I just hope that we see more progression in the long-term story-arc in the upcoming episodes.

    @silverman

    Sorry, I may not have been clear with my whole opinion of Danny Pink. I think he’s like the Eleventh Doctor in a way that he is a good man, but regrets his misdeeds of the past. I think that with Clara’s ability to persuade the Doctor and Danny’s possibly very troubled past experiences might shape the personality of the Twelfth Doctor. I hope that I’ve been a little more descriptive in this post…

    Au revoir!

    #30874
    Anonymous @

    @janetteb – I forgot to mention your Adric idea which is great!   And not out of the question either. Who knows how long the Doctor has been collecting. River, Amy, Rory, Master…. all in bounds now!

    I  misquoted @pedant – its orgcybs.

    #30875
    Anonymous @

    @Forsini  The problem with this type of intelligence is that it creates this almost-well written verbiage which is a front for virtual fascism. The connection of  Muslims to rape is misrepresented. These are not true Muslims -not even by name. The fact that in Australia we heard about this crime indicates that you felt it a perfect example for your formulaic discourse. Muslims have been represented in Doctor Who in any case. Not that this is the point. You’ve taken simplistic ideas, and like a poor 10th grader, shoved the theories around to fit the ‘facts’.

    What is stunning is that having dredged up ideas about rebellion and anti-authority you’ve assumed that only this programme demonstrates the idea of a ‘rebel’ or an ‘anti-authority’ figure.

    Yes, the Dr was a friend of Lethbridge, but you misunderstand his relationship (as you put it) with Unit. He was always suspicious of their loyalties as he was of Torchwood’s. This was the case throughout Tennant’ years as well. After 2000 years of watching devastating warfare -600 of which was spent protecting a small town called Christmas from his own people (a bunch of warmongers) and the daleks above, the only possible result could be hatred of war. He doesn’t however hate soldiers. He pities their roles. This is entirely different.

    As to ‘naughty/rebellious’ students -apparently caused by leftist policies involving removing the cane and perhaps not introducing compulsory national service or cadetships for children 14 and over (such as the Hitler Youth)- they have existed throughout time.

    Even  Thatcher’s Britain (adored by some) shows clear data establishing the exclusion of children from school for malicious behaviour including sexual harassment, inappropriate behaviour towards teachers and low levels of literacy in areas such as Middlesex and Essex.

    In 1963 -65 -when Doctor Who aired, three counties showed the highest exclusion rates of students since 1958 -60, the lowest literacy and numeracy levels and the highest break up of families due to divorce and abandonment.

    The main problem with right-wing ‘world deactivation theories’, is that there is no statistics or data  -or even articles from reputable newspapers to support these ‘leftist domination ideas’.

    Even in Australia, we are aware that the BBC is producing more reality TV shows, programmes light on real news and talk- back radio which demonstrates the poor grasp of facts stakeholders need in order to prepare apocalyptic prophecies about the ‘end of the world’.

    I can see that Murdoch Ltd, has spread American tea-party polemic across oceans and back again. It is a truism that statistical illiteracy is not as frightening as the kind of wilful illiteracy demonstrated by those elites who simplistically churn out a dialect of political understanding limited to schematic views of capitalism versus socialism.

    The ‘Agenda driven leftist’ and its preferred policies (to which you refer rather muddily), fails to outline or compare right wing decision making in a society’s economy during instability when the heads of such elites have either never heard of John Law or have forgotten what he did.

    Right wing activists referring to so-called leftist policies are ignorant of the nineteenth century railway bubbles or the crash of the 1880s. What does it mean when a right wing strategist talks seriously about “the catastrophe which, brought about by leftist policies, awaits us, should we  forgive debt” (Ralston Saul) and attempt to ignore the imperative ‘budget in the black’ ideal? I would say that he “knows nothing about the strength of Athens’ economy and civilisation” created through the democrat, Solon and his forgiveness of loans between social orders and across borders.

    The current right wingers, who believe that war is good for economy forget that both British and American financial strength was the result of financial defaultings -an issue the Murdoch press would prefer to forget. Similar ‘revolutionary’ policies involve the awareness, that from the 9th Century BC, military spending, and thus war, has been a disaster for economies. Given that economy is, by right wingers, fed like a God (much like the dualistic ‘market’), it would be fortunate if war could be seen as having actual social ramifications.

    In the end, Doctor Who and any fictional world, is not an exercise separate from society. It must always be ‘entertainment first’ but it should, where possible, provide for a strengthening of societal traditions of peace, justice, and anti-discrimination. That this programme is now incomprehensible to the right wing outside it, is no surprise.

    Kindest, purofilion

    #30876
    Anonymous @

    excuse me mods that was @fonsini   – I had to suffer thru that polemic.  I’m sure he won’t read a thing. However, if you wish to delete my missive I totally understand. It really has no place here -a letter to an editor is the place for this, but I fell into the spell and…..answered.  No-one gains anything by such a response either. Apologies. Puro.

    #30878
    Anonymous @

    @wolfweed Aristotle was also the peripatetic wanderer: teaching as he walked. This role was ascribed, I believe, to Plato, also. I find @fonsini and his ignorance about the essential conservatism of Aristotelian and Platonic philosophy to be quite interesting -selective ignorance, I suppose. Plato himself believed that if you were born into a class, then your goal was to ‘live it well’. No room for genuine upward mobility in Greek and Roman civilisation!

    #30882
    midnyt @midnyt

    Ok, I’ve just been through my first watch through of episode 2. I really enjoyed it. Note to all future companions, don’t forget your purse/wallet. 🙂 You never know when you might have to get home from Glasgow. Danny has a lot of potential, I’m really interested in seeing how his character progresses.

    I didn’t really have a problem with him telling Journey no. Granted he was a little gruff about it, but that’s what I think this Doctor’s personality is like. Nine booted Adam out of the TARDIS (yeah, I know he deserved it) and Ten refused Lady Christina when she thought she was just gonna hop on board. He was also going to refuse Donna as well, until she made it clear she wasn’t interested in him that way.

    I really kind of hope Missy is a new character. The theories are fun, but I think with all the nods to the past we already have, I’d like to see some new ones.

    Clara is definitely getting better for me. She’s not quite there yet, but I see definite improvement.

    #30883
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @silverman   Good question. No, I think that like you, I definitely see Twelve as having his own unique character. It’s just that that character seems to contain a lot more of the qualities that we’ve seen in earlier Doctors, unlike the other recent incarnations which have had a more unique feel to them (at least, to me). People have written a lot about what qualities are quintessential to the Doctor, and it’s interesting to me to realize how many things keep popping up. After watching last week, I felt strongly that Capaldi’s Doctor felt very old school, Before-Gap, to me, but it has taken me some time to work out exactly why that is. Certainly part of it is that so far, he doesn’t seem quite so tied to contemporary Earth culture. And I’m sure it’s partly the age thing as well. But he does seem to bring these other qualities that I mentioned, that I definitely recognize from earlier incarnations.

    I agree that he is not really unkind, and certainly not evil. He is just… less concerned with the things that our sensibilities tell us should matter– being sympathetic, warm, friendly, understanding, etc. I think that underneath all that, there is still the Doctor, who cares about good and evil in the deeper sense. I wonder if there is something in knowing that Gallifrey still exists, along with his own people, that has allowed this incarnation to be alien again, to be perhaps not so emotionally dependent upon being loved by humanity. Not Clara, specifically, but humanity in general. They aren’t really his people. But until recently, he had no people. Now once again, somewhere, he does.

    #30884
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @barnable   However, I don’t know how SM can possibly make a good story arc out of a dinosaur in lady form.    Did you mean this to be hilarious? I hope so, because it made me laugh big time! I mean, I suppose he could, if he had to, but I envisioned a dinosaur in Missy’s dress, and just lost it.

    @vastrax   You know, I was so busy thinking back to what long-ago Dalek story I might have forgotten, that I didn’t even think about recent episodes like Victory! That’s called thinking too hard, I guess.  🙂

    @purofilion     Just… wow. And the falling of one extra drop of rain bursts the dikes, and the gentle soul that is Puro’s spills out in passionate rhetoric! That is more than a letter to the editor, it’s a lawyer’s closing argument.   🙂   For what it’s worth, all of it well said.

    #30885
    janetteB @janetteb

    @craig, Well handled. @purofilion @arbutus, @silverman, Well said. If such a person was ever a Dr Who fan then  I think they have been “missing the point”. But enough has been said already, and I have a meeting tonight with a bunch of “lefty, pacifist, rebel type friends” to get ready for, nearly all of whom are also Dr Who fans. (Or “lefty” by tea bagging standards anyway.)

    Sadly that post left a “nasty taste”. I don’t want to dwell upon it however I did want to comment on the attitude to the military in Dr Who. Unit is (or was) a United Nations task force set up to defend earth. Unit’s mission is not to wage war or act in an aggressive way. The individual soldiers within Unit however often resort to the “six round rapid” response to threats, usually to no avail. The Doctor invariably has a better way though there are plenty of situations in which the “six rounds rapid” is required and the day is won by the combination of brain and brawn. This leads into questions about “just wars”; a question which Dr Who has never been entirely shy of broaching. The Doctor, I suspect, is like most pacifists. There comes a time when a warrior is needed but when he adapts that mantle he does not do it as “The Doctor”.

    I don’t think Dr Who has ever been pro or anti military. What it is “anti” is military aggression. What the series is “pro” is military defense. (Maybe I am reading some personal values into the series and there is certainly no consistant ethos, after all the series has had many different writers with their own personal views on the matter which naturally influence what is written.)

    cheers

    Janette.

    “ps (I am certain I had something more to say about the episode but it will come to me later, probably mid meeting.)

    #30886
    chickenelly @chickenelly

    Just a quick check in, now the coast is clear.

    A few thoughts (in the form of a list!):

    1) If Missy is collecting those who have sacrificed themselves in some way at the Doctor’s behest, will Rusty the Dalek be part of ‘heaven’ too?  I can’t see him lasting all that long trying to bump off all the Daleks.

    2) The Doctor’s attitude to the death of Ross and to Clara I’m beginning to interpret as someone lacking in social skills – the regeneration seems to have set him to year zero almost.  Certainly there has been flagging up of his only having a hazy memory of a lot of previous events plus how awkward he was with Clara at the end of Deep Breath.  The other Doctors, all had cold moments but may have kept their opinions to themselves or at least looked a bit guilty about it (I’m thinking about how ruthless 11 was to old Amy in TGWW).  Clara had to ‘teach’ him (through a slap) that his attitude was not acceptable.  Methinks this gives Capaldi an opportunity to develop the character as the series progresses.

     

    #30887
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    OK, back to try and make a more coherent post, now that I am sober and have watched the episode on a television screen.

    I think the young girl shown in this and episode one will be featured more prominently in an episode. Maybe that will be the episode where Danny first comes along in the TARDIS? This would be like the first ever episode, only with Clara and Susan switched. And if this happens, I di think we might find something out about Susan at last.

    We learned something important about Missy: she isn’t just collecting expired baddies. Now I’m thinking that the robot did jump, which doesn’t mean the Doctor isn’t responsible for his death, just as he has some responsibility for Gretchen’s death.

    Journey was great, I will admit I laughed a little at the ‘top layer’ joke, until Journey got hold of him, and then I felt suitably chastised. In that sense, she worked very well as a companion in this episode. As for the Doctor banning her, I know he rejected Captain Jack because he didn’t like the effect of Roses resurrection, but it seemed to me, show wise, that there was a feeling that Jack, with his gun, was better suited to the adult end of the television market? (I remember SJS, from the child end of the Who spectrum making a comment about too many guns. He needs companions like Amy and Clara who will push him to find a ‘third way’, and he was very pragmatic in this episode, which would have made the ‘good dalek’ comment more painful.

    I love the new TARDIS, books, chalk, etc. Despite this episode being about physical healing, this doctor does seem very much a doctor as in a learned man. (Didn’t the first doctor say he wasn’t ‘that sort of doctor’ i.e. a medical physician?)

    The Doctor’s sadness at what he had created in the dalek, his realisation of what a ‘good dalek’ by non dalek idea’s, would be. In fact, we’ve had three kinds of good dalek: Clara, who was a dalek but also good, though this was done by rejecting the dalek mind, Rusty, a dalek on the side of the ‘goodies’ (non- daleks) and the doctor, who, if was a  delek, would probably be the best dalek in the world…

    re: trolls. Well done to moderators and everyone who tried to reason with them. It’s a shame that people are finding this place just for the purpose of posting inflammatory garbage, but if that is the price we pay for the sites success and all the lovely new and interesting members and their posts, then so be it 😉

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