Time Heist

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    @juniperfish @spider

    Two time streams? I find this absolutely baffling

    There weren’t. After the events of Day of the Doctor War Doctor/ Nine genuinely believed that they had destroyed Gallifrey (this was made very clear at the National Gallery, when the three Docs were discussing before going their separate ways) and did not come to understand that they had/would found/ find an alternative all the way through 9 or 10s era and most of the way through 11s.

    I am more attracted to the idea of pink and blue as representing choice, in a blue pill/ red pill way. Moff is all about the metaphor.

    acciotardis @acciotardis

    He did! Brilliant!

    The Krynoid Man @thekrynoidman

    I felt that like many recent episodes it had too many ideas for just a 45 minute episode. They really need to bring back two parters.

    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @pedant I think the two time streams or not has been argued before on these boards – so, in two times streams spirit 🙂  you can keep your always-already and I’ll keep my second-time-around saved Gallifrey.

    But I like the blue pill/ red pill as an addition and if you go back and watch the episode for lighting, you will see that it switches  between red and blue at points – it’s very striking in places e.g. at the point when Clara has the conversation with Psi before he supposedly sacrifices himself – she is lit in red and he in blue.

    If Clara does turn out to be his great great granddaughter or whatever then I love the two time streams perspective – because in the first one, as we saw in The End of Time,  the Doctor sacrificed his own family (we see his Mother) when Gallifrey burned, including, perchance his own descendants. And in the second time stream – they are returned to him.


    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @pedant – I think the truly quantum thing about the two times streams/one misunderstood time stream conundrum is that it’s an excellent illustration of Schroedinger’s paradox. Namely, the time stream (s) is/are currently in a state of quantum superposition where it/they is/are both two and one at the same time.

    I’m for two, partly because it fits better with the Many Universes theory (and we know there are Many Universes in Doctor Who). A decision as major as the destruction of Gallifrey should have split the universe; one universe where the Doctor chose genocide, one where he didn’t.

    It makes sense to me that The Moment would be advanced enough to siphon the unwanted option off into a closed loop universe.

    However, the precise number of time streams is currently like that bloody cat. Until we open the box, both options are (paradoxically) open.




    watch the episode for lighting, you will see that it switches  between red and blue at points –

    Yes, I saw that in re-watch. I am now entirely convinced they are doing it just make sure you are awake.


    I always think that the flaw in Schroedinger’s wee thought experiment is the idea that you could get a cat into that sodding box without triggering it’s “OMG! THERETAKINGMETOTHEVET!!!!!!!!” reflex.

    ScaryB @scaryb


    Little bit clearer today, I think.  @PhileasF your post made it a lot clearer. Of course they have to be able to mask their thoughts from the Teller. The Doctor could transfer in via the TARDIS before the solar storm, but couldn’t get through to the final part of the vault as the final lock needed the solar storm before it could be hacked open.

    The Teller couldn’t rescue its own mate because it was always chained up (in Guantanamo Bay prisoner orange…?). A very Who-type reverse. You have this scary thing introduced which can turn your brains to literal soup, and which seems to be so uncontrollably dangerous that it needs to be permanently chained… then it turns out to be something that’s just looking for love and a cure for its headache!

    On the subject of the Teller – it’s originally introduced as a creature who can “detect criminal intent”. That later gets reworded as “guilt” (or is it “gilt”?? 😉 ).  Why would it be interested in the people/creatures in Psi’s head – the sensorite wasn’t a burglar (tho one of them was double dealing), neither was the Gunslinger (who ends up as a good guy), or Absalom Daak (don’t know much about him, obv a bit bonkers but he kills Daleks). Tereleptils weren’t criminals or evil either as I remember.  And how did Psi get all these characters in his head? Is it from when he uploaded the bank schematics?

    As others have noted – it’s interesting that it locks on to Clara – surely not just to give her something to do this week! (I kept being reminded of the “brick wall” thought in the Midwych Cuckoos book/(Village of the Damned films))

    And has anyone worked out whose ship they teleported on to yet? (I’m still clinging to my “it’s Missy’s ship” theory, following @bluesqueakpip‘s observation about the teleport effect. HFM (from Deep Breath) could be the exception as he’s part robot so could be transported differently). This episode was very timeywimey and always be suspicious where memory worms are involved!


    ScaryB @scaryb

    last couple of thoughts for now –

    When Clara’s caught in the Teller’s “brain-grab” there’s a funny “wobbly” effect. It reminds me of the moment in Cold War when she almost drowned (LOTS of theorising  round that… which proved to be nothing). Cold War was also directed by Douglas MacKinnon – maybe it’s just a wee stylistic thing he has. (“Aaagh” she screams as she’s zapped by the Bonkers Theories Rule bot!!). though that thought would also lead me to all the political subtexts running under both of these stories. Go Douglas!

    This Doctor has been accused of being callous – I think it’s just that he’s accepted that he can’t save everyone. Reg in Into the Dalek and the unfortunate bank customer in this one – who may or may not have been an innocent bystander. (He may not have been going to rob the bank, but what he was about to bank may well have been ill-gotten (subtext about the massively rich people who need to use the biggest, most secure bank in the universe?)

    He’s still our Doctor though, just more realistic. In Deep Breath, in the worst of the regeneration aftermath (before the titles) he still recognises that Vastra’s set the frequencies wrong for the lampy-things she’s set up to control the dinosaur, and tells her to change them. Being the last of his kind isn’t the only thing he has in common with the Tellers, he’s also dealing with the mega overload of information from the universe, that he needs to be able to select the relevant bits from to make the right pattern. (Much like dealing with the internet being wired straight into your head I’d imagine!)

    And the bank – is it just me or were other people thinking about Douglas Adams? If I’ve a criticism of this episode it would be that the security systems of the bank didn’t really seem to live up to the claims in their brochure. No CCTV in the rooms for example.  I chuckled at the breath activated door systems tho – what if you’d had a really badly behaved late night on the town the night before – would that affect your breath signature…? No need to blood test your employees – they’ll be “fired” when their breath isn’t recognised!! 😈

    Brewski @brewski

    Two preliminary notes:

    1. Loved Saibra and Psi!  Here’s hoping they will be the next companions!

    2. Am I imagining things, or was the lock on the vault very similar to the round lighty displays on Orson’s time capsule?  (Which. btw, made me think of Tardis roundels, now that I think about it.)

    Anonymous @


    Schroedinger’s paradox. Namely, the time stream (s) is/are currently in a state of quantum superposition where it/they is/are both two and one at the same time.

    I know you are definitely right. So, let me try that.  

     **Head Eplodes**  😯 😕

    Well that does it… I’m just sticking with 2 time lines.   Which I think is equal to cat always in the box, until you let it out.   😀


    Arbutus @arbutus

    Hey, I love a good heist flick, so this was lots of fun. I thought the music was great, with the stylish soundtrack behind the early scenes giving way to a more dramatic style as the story became more intense. Kudos to @idiotsavon who called the pattern of suppressing senses: Don’t think!

    I loved the moment when the Doctor stared in disbelief at the nice tidy hole in the floor. And when he gave the others their “rewards”, I felt an instant of deep, deep sorrow that he hadn’t gotten his! Until I realized a moment later that he was still going for it.  🙂

    I have started feeling a little annoyed at the constant harping of various characters at the Doctor for failing to stop in the middle of a life-threatening situation to feel sorrow for someone’s death. Frankly, if I was part of the group, I would be pretty relieved that the Doctor was focused on getting us all out alive! It was a beautiful little moment when he realized that they weren’t dead after all, and dropped his “hard-guy” mask for a moment. Also, his empathy for the “monster” was apparent from the first moment he realized what it was: the of its kind, forced somehow into servitude.

    I didn’t see the end coming at all, which is fun. I liked how the story turned in on itself– we are seeing a lot of time looping in this series, I wonder if there is significance to that?

    Mudlark @mudlark

    Maybe I am just very easy to please, but so far I have enjoyed all the episodes this season, each in its own way and for different reasons, and this is no exception. I appreciated it even more on second viewing today since, although I grasped all the main points the first time, I was conscious that some details were slipping past me (I blame the pre-prandial G&T).  It was stylish and fast-paced,  superficially, at least, bearing a passing resemblance to one of the better episodes of Hustle, especially in the ‘how it was done’ reveal towards the end,  and Capaldi seems to be inhabiting the skin of the Doctor ever more comfortably.

    The episode also features what seems to me to have been a recurrent theme over several seasons now: that of memory, and specifically memories lost and memories lost and restored (‘Run, you clever boy, and remember..’).  @scaryb has mentioned the obvious parallel with The Rings of Akhaten, but there are others.  The tragedy of Donna, who wasn’t just left behind by the Doctor as other companions have been, but deprived of all memory of her experiences travelling with him; Amy’s parents and then Rory who were lost to the universe when the Crack absorbed them, so that even the memory of them was obliterated, and who were then restored; and the Doctor himself who was restored to the rebooted universe when Amy was prompted into remembering him.  And then there is Clara whose memories have already been tampered with during her time as a companion and who, in a version of herself splintered through time, has seen the whole of the Doctor’s life up to the events on Trenzalore; how much of that might she be capable of remembering?

    And what of the Doctor’s own memories? How does even the mind of a Time Lord accommodate over two thousand years’ worth of them, let alone access them at will ?   Can he in fact do so, or is there some kind of selective blocking or amnesia?  The second doctor spoke of waking the memories sleeping in his mind, but that was long ago.

    Finally, some random observations. like @juniperfish I noted the alternating red and blue lighting, and it seemed to be consistent – red lit corridor for Clara; blue lit corridor for the Doctor and Psi.  Red shift/blue shift or just teasing us?

    The music playing in Kalabraxos’s private vault was,  I think, the overture to Abduction from the Seraglio, appropriately enough.

    Anonymous @


    we are seeing a lot of time looping in this series

    I agree.  This one was definitely a time loop because it just doesn’t fit it into a 2 time line explanation (maybe someone can figure it out?).   @bluesqueakpip I opened the box and sadly wound up with a dead cat on this episode.   😥

    I haven’t been able to do much theorizing from it either.   The only semi theory I have is about the WitS.  I think the clone who gets the Doctor’s message and phone number at the end is the WitS. 


    I can’t explain how the old dieing Karobraxos got the phone number of the Tardis in the first place?  That is the part that doesn’t fit 2 time lines, but instead is the chicken and the egg.  

    Did WitS give it to her?  That could be, but in that case the clone and real Karobraxos could not be WitS.

    The Doctor was the Architect, so did he meet Karobraxos when he built the place?  If he did and gave her his number, then real Karobraxos could be the WitS.

    I don’t think the clone could have given the Doctor’s message to real Karobraxos, because how did the Doctor get to the Clone without the first phone call?  Unless it is just another Time Loop, which I really don’t understand.

    Besides those questions, all I have is a few observations and comments on what I thought about it on my first watch. 

    My favorite line was: “Those aren’t tears Clara… That’s soup.”  🙂

    I got a lot of James Bond and Sherlock vibes from this episode.  It felt different than the regular? episodes.  Not bad in anyway though.  It could not have looked or felt cooler, just different.

    The monster reminded me of Star Wars at first, but then I noticed that nothing in Star Wars looks that good.  So it is a DW monster now, regardless.

    I thought the monsters’ land at the end, looked very much like a promised land/paradise.

    And I thought Karobraxos looks very similar to Missy.  But I guess it is a completely different actress since that would give it away? 

    So that’s all I have is questions really.  @scaryb I will try working on your questions to see if I am any better at answering those?  🙂


    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @pedant – of course, the Terry Pratchett version is that there are THREE quantum states. The cat is dead, the cat is alive, the cat is absolutely bloody furious.


    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    @phileasf: I really like your point the Doctor’s self-loathing being the key that allows him to figure out who the Architect is. There was a similar resolution in Amy’s Choice, where Matt Smith was able to figure out who the Dream Lord was because “There’s only one person in this universe who hates me as much as you do”.

    I also like your observation about Karabraxos as a mirror (Twelve hates the Architect/Karabraxos burns her clones – both symbols of self-contempt)… Taking this a little further, and thinking of the Doctor’s line “You’ll be old and full of regret for the things that you can’t change” – Is the older Karabraxos also a mirror? (Karabraxos: “I am old, with many many regrets”. Doctor: “I’ve made many mistakes. It’s about time I did something about that”.)

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @nick1235    The slow-mo of when they’re getting in to the bank is VERY VERY SEXY.     I completely agree, I loved this bit, it was pretty stylish!

    @badwulf    The guy who got “souped” was a bystander, but clearly not innocent (except of trying to break into the bank!).

    @bluesqueakpip    Interesting point about Clara’s guilt. I wonder if it is to do with Danny, given that we seem to be headed for “Clara nervous breakdown” territory next week, as she is obviously struggling to maintain two separate lives. I’m glad we’ll be seeing that, as I really don’t think it would be possible to do it successfully for long, especially when in the delicate stages of a new relationship.

    @serahni    I completely agree about the Doctor’s little moment of “oneupmanship” of his as yet unseen competition. He probably also suspects that, the minute Clara gets truly involved in a proper relationship, that that is the moment when he will begin to lose her as a companion.

    @apopheniac   I actually find it quite believable that he would be competing for Clara’s attention. It has been established that he is really not fully settled in this incarnation, and seems to be reliant on her in a way that he doesn’t admit. He is clearly not ready to “go it alone”. My personal hope for the end of her story would be that she decides to stop traveling with him (either because of Danny or for some other “growing up” reason) and he accepts that as he realizes that he no longer needs her as a prop. At that point, he is truly regenerated and good to go, off into time and space to find other friends and so on.

    Rob @rob

    Ok all three things, well maybe two or four depending how this posy goes, must use punctuation.

    Thirdly, beat that for a date, a dad or grandad sort of comment. By which I mean the Doctor isn’t being possessive he is being protective. If the date can compete then he is worthy

    The Clara shaking device when being scanned by the Teller or Soupdragon may be showing that multiple Claras were being mind probed

    Lastly the Doctor as the Architect provided teleports to save his fellow thieves from desth then it is also a reasonable hypotheses that the two previous good soldiers ( those who willingly sacrifice themselves to save others)  were teleported to Missy.

    Secondly my last point means Missy is working with the Doctor

    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    Senses, thoughts and reflexes: Don’t breath/Do breathe/Listen/Don’t look at it/Think of your childhood/Don’t not think of your childhood… The obvious one this episode was “Don’t think at all”. But we also got “Don’t touch it” with the memory worm before the opening credits, and Saibra who doesn’t normally allow herself to touch people, but whose touch is essential to the heist.

    lisa @lisa

    This episode reminded me of a Farscape episode where that group broke into a bank-like place to ‘heist’ Crichton- from the Shadow Depository -I got the exactly the same vibe as though the writer saw that same [3 part] episode and borrowed from it – – even the bank caretakers seemed to be the same personality types in both –
    I liked the episode but its definitely needs more than 1 watching cause it moves so fast- it almost felt a bit squeezed in its allotted time

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @phaseshift   I has been suggested before that the Doctor doesn’t like himself, with the whole “Dream Lord” character. It has also been said that the Doctor isn’t always fond of his own past incarnations. And there’s the “I’ve made many mistakes” line. I think in two thousand years of time travel, and several hundred of being the last of the Time Lords, it would be possible to make enough mistakes that you might not like yourself much, if you allow yourself to dwell on it!

    @phileasf   Thanks for your concise and eloquent clarification of the Doctor’s use of the TARDIS. I was a bit confused on this point after only one watch, but it makes perfect sense now!

    @janetteb   I agree that this was less continually riveting for me than the previous two (RoS was a thorough delight, and Listen was end-to-end breathtaking), but I rate it higher than Into the Dalek, which I enjoyed but found slightly less engaging. But really, for me, the quality of all the episodes so far has been high enough that this is a quibble. As you say, something for everyone!

    @rob    Thirdly, beat that for a date, a dad or grandad sort of comment. By which I mean the Doctor isn’t being possessive he is being protective. If the date can compete then he is worthy     This is a neat idea, except that I’m not sure that the Doctor would ever really believe that anyone could compete!

    By the way, is it me or were your points out of their proper time stream? And will they remember themselves afterward?  🙂

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    I took a couple of screengrabs. I’m not so curious about the first one, although the person in the top left looks a bit weird (you can’t really see it in the screengrab as it’s squished horizontally). Also, their head does not appear to have collapsed.


    I find this one much more interesting. It’s the 1st image after the Doctor says ‘I need worms.’ Looks like Ian Chesterton to me, although I’m sure that will be poo-pooed.




    idiotsavon @idiotsavon


    Clara laughing inappropriately 23:44??

    Wow, that’s mad – good spot. I missed that completely. Clara is pleading with him not to use the shredder. Why on earth would she suddenly be smiling? I can only imagine there’s a bit of dialogue that was cut – but then why wouldn’t they edit the smile out? It’s so wrong!

    GothamCelt @gothamcelt

    Another ‘Most  Secure Vault In The World / Galaxy / Universe’ plot where there are no guards and anyone can access anywhere by  pulling off  an oversized vent  in the air conditioning system and simply walking in. A bit more imagination in the writing, please.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @gothamcelt – well, I found the episode a bit on the dull side, but the bank had a guard that sucked your brains out.

    And I don’t think that needing a shape shifting mutant, a bomb, a computer specialist and a massive solar storm counts as ‘simply walking in’. 😉

    That said, I know what you mean. Twice now, I’ve tried to watch it and twice now I’ve wandered out for a cup of tea in the middle…

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @gothamcelt    @bluesqueakpip      a shape shifting mutant, a bomb, a computer specialist and a massive solar storm      Not to mention a time traveler.   🙂

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @arbutus – the time traveller’s a given. It’s sort of embedded in the format. 😉

    JimboMcMaster @jimbomcmaster

    @timeloop @IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan   I believe the post-hug arm-rub is simply because this Doctor apparently doesn’t ‘do’ hugs.

    Anyone else notice the Doctor give Psi a ‘call-me’ gesture just as Psi leaves the Tardis at the end? Despite the fact that Psi already offered his services robbing any more banks? What else could they have to talk about that isn’t worth mentioning out loud in front of the others? That, coupled with the Doctor saying ‘Robbing a bank – beat that for a date’ made me think, wildly – is the Twelfth Doctor homosexual? The date being one with Psi, robbing a bank. Either the one they just did, or is he planning another? (Although, going on a date with someone doing their day job maybe is not the best idea.) But there’s a bonkers theory for you.

    @spider Yes I had a flashback to Children of Earth then too. But I assumed I’d be the only one!

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @spider @jimbomcmaster – Children of Earth flashback, check!



    That said, I know what you mean. Twice now, I’ve tried to watch it and twice now I’ve wandered out for a cup of tea in the middle…

    I think ti si time to start freeze-framing for subliminal frames of a teapot.

    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip at 15 mins in -precisely, I said “hmm, I’m gonna get iced coffee; nothin’s happening”. Then I read your post. You felt the same. After that 5 to 10 minute period,  things started happening fast but I didn’t get the impression that it was ‘scream out loud terror’ as I’ve felt with other fast paced -or even RTD -episodes in the distant past.

    @janetteb and @arbutus I see you also felt it was “less riveting”. Funny that it would be? A heist, weird monsters, the sad pair of monsters no less; Psi with a computer head and the Soupy Brain Guy (that looked freaky and BoyIlion hid under the bed clothes though he won’t admit that today!) should make for great tele.

    BoyIlion also loved the score. For the first 20 mins today I took out the music (by removing various red/blue/yellow cords) & ran only the dialogue. What I expected to happen, did!

    It wasn’t as exciting without the music -I mean at all. Of course a score adds so much texture to any episode but I felt the episode linked in so much with the score, that without the thumping music, we had little real stuff on which to chew. Bearing in mind I’ve watched 1 1/2 episodes, I expect I’ll change my mind immediately. Time for a double strength, xtra hot, long black, dash of cream, forget the sugar (coz I’ll have a dark chocolate tim-tam) and…press PLAY.


    I like the blue/red as a choice matter which was highlighted in last week’s ep (Lock/Unlock).

    The bank reminded me of the Library in SitL and the corridors a little like Amy and Rory’s mad running from one end of the Tardis to the other whilst House was playing mind games (tDoctor’s Wife).

    I personally loved Psi as a character -funny and instantly likeable. The idea of putting a USB in your head, is, I hope, a long long way away! Although for some, it would mean less cash spent on faulty laptops. The Dr saying ‘phone me’ could simply mean he liked the guy (but not in that way!). Kindest, puro.

    Anonymous @

    @scaryb I loved your post and particularly the quite diffident nature of the Dr who isn’t all torn up (on the outside -but like a Tardis, who knows what he’s feeling on the inside? 🙂 ) when people die, as without that ostensible sacrifice, others would have followed.

    He reminds me of Colin Baker (the good bits ) and even Chris Eccleston in that respect but I also saw Grumpy Pa -aka the very first Doctor in Capaldi’s behaviour which is why I said yesterday to someone (and thank you @arbutus for making that clear) that they’re all the same Doctor -the essence is there.

    They contain the original personalities: it’s just that each incarnation allows for other buttons to be pushed. I recently watched Flesh and Stone with Matt Smith and saw him yell at the clerics and at River Song when she said “what complex space time being can you send into that crack?”

    His response, all shouty was: “Like. Me. For. Instance!!” So Capaldi has anger and his is a disturbing, poignant, quiet kind: infinitely more terrifying.

    @mudlark I enjoyed your summing up of the Dr’s amnesia. Perhaps, as others upthread have noted, with 13 regens and a new lot, would we have dementia for Doctors? How would you contain all those memories without blowing up? But then we know about Donna’s demise, who, with TimeLordy-ness partially installed, had to be rebooted before she soupified.

    As a TL, the Dr can hold wagon loads of memories but I wonder if it’s a deal breaker at ‘thirteen going on one’?

    @rob I too thought the wibbly camera was all the scanned claricles. This would mean an awful lot of guilt about which she would not be aware!

    I wonder where in the universe the architect came up with ‘soupy brains’ as punishment? Like The Silence, you’d forget the crime (but in this case there’s no ‘self’ left either). When Missy has her way with ‘the people’ -what is left of them?

    Anonymous @

    I just watch this episode please explain it to me my mind is a scribble right now. help!

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @purofilion    I should stress that although I say I found it less riveting than last week’s episode, it still engaged my interest throughout. I watched “Robot of Sherwood” with utter glee for 45 minutes, and “Listen” was of course haunting and enthralling and different. This one didn’t quite have the same “wow” factor for me, but I still enjoyed and questioned and absorbed. I made my tea before the episode started; but I never did get my second cup!

    What an interesting experiment to run, removing the music. I wouldn’t have thought you could even do that. It would be fascinating to watch different films or TV shows to determine how much the music contributed to the overall effect. I can well imagine certain scenes without the music would have lacked zip. The music allows the film makers to structure scenes in ways where not much actually happens (the slow-mo entry into the bank, for instance). But I wonder, does that mean that our filmmakers are relying on the music to provide emotional content that isn’t present in the script, performances, or direction? (I’m remembering our viewing of Quatermass, which struck me the whole time as a remarkably quiet bit of television. But it never lacked tension or momentum.

    TheBrainOfMoffat @thebrainofmoffat

    Speaking of music, did anyone else notice 11’s theme in the preview to next Saturday’s episode? It really surprised me (and pleasantly).

    nick1235 @nick1235

    Anyone notices the Clara smirks when Psi was trying to unlock the combination. And the Doctor looks painfully hold his arm when Saibra hug him?

    Anonymous @


    Looks like Ian Chesterton to me…

    I’ve been tinkering with Photoshop and while I’m not able to upload the resulting image ( the file appears to be corrupted ) I think you may be right 😯


    Rob @rob

    I refer you to my earlier answer which I’ll post later


    There are possibly two further states

    1. The cat is at the vets

    2. The cat is somewhere else ((( ie anywhere bar at the vets (( or in the box)) (which depending upon it’s state may or may not being moved towards the vets)  )))

    Is that two states?


    You completely lost me at first, I was confused and had to re read several times….. Cold coffee?  However you redeemed yourself in paragraph 4 😛

    Coloured chords, again lost but dazzled by your insight will have to Wikipedia that


    What post 😉

    Also the bank it seemed to ke was an ethical bank in that didn’t accept laundered/dirty deposits but at the same time souped miscreants …. surely an interesting debate on morals. You can be filthy rich and honest otherwise you can’t bank here. Then the treatment of the dishonest is simply medieval

    @Tennantlove9090 is scribbled the same as having Q U I X O T I but no C down ??? 🙂

    @Others and @nick1235 the Doctor rubbing his arm and dislike of hugs almost a touch of OCD???

    ScaryB @scaryb

    @bluesqueakpip @rob

    Alternatively – the cat is an internet meme

    Bloomin cats! It’s probably all their fault in the first place.


    @Tennantlove9090 Hope your brain gets unscribbled soon 🙂 Sounds like Fear Her syndrome – you may need a Doctor! (For what this episode’s about I suggest starting at the beginning of this thread. It may not help but it’s all that the hive mind has come up with so far!)

    ScaryB @scaryb

    @juniperfish Hope you’re feeling much better


    I am more attracted to the idea of pink and blue as representing choice, in a blue pill/ red pill way. Moff is all about the metaphor.

    Interesting comment in the context of this episode where they chose to forget. There’s a lot of potential gaps here, where other things could have happened. I’m still trying to work out whose ship they landed on (where they left the TARDIS). If it’s Missy’s it doesn’t necessarily mean they’re working with her, but it’s possible. Would be nice to see the sharp-suited boss-woman idea turned on its head.

    @Purofilion Interesting idea to remove the music soundtrack (in awe of your geeky skills here) but I don’t think it’s fair to judge the episode that way. Like judging it on the leaked episodes which were pre VFX.  It’s made to be viewed as a whole.

    ScaryB @scaryb

    @wolfweed @fatmaninabox

    Ian Chesterton? 😯 Don’t see it myself, but would love it to be



    janetteB @janetteb

    I don’t see Ian in that image either but I have fingers crossed that I am wrong.



    thommck @thommck

    Enjoyed reading all your thoughts, I’ll be @’ing my replies in a separate post.

    A good episode. Doesn’t stand out as one that will be remembered much but still very enjoyable. These are exactly the standalone style of episodes that my wife loves, ironically, she didn’t watch this one!

    I loved the design of the Teller. The way his eye stalks moved looked great. However, he lost a bit of his edge when he took his prison suit off to reveal a very BG style man-in-a-suit. The Doctor dropped them of in a very heavenly looking place. Was Missy on the other side of that mountain range? At least the Doc now has another ally on his side if he needs to extract some memories from somebody.

    Speaking of memories. Do you think the neophyte circuit that Psi got only restores digital memories, like an undelete button, or would it work on biological memories too?

    I was 100% convinced from the start that Psi was off to the Promised Land. D’oh, tricked again!

    I understood the motive and plot for the Time Heist, but I still can’t figure out if it was a paradox or not. A timeline diagram would be very useful. I may have a go later if I find the time.

    Something my 10 year old spotted, were the soldiers at the beginning Clergy? Their camouflage uniforms looked very similar. Where did they come from as they seemed to disappear early on.

    Anyone else spot how the Doctor was visibly out of breath after the traditional run through the corridors sequence. I have a feeling this is more of a mind-over-patter Doctor

    We have shape-shifters and clones in this episode, we can never trust what we see on screen now!

    Saibra calls the Doctor “A Good Man” so that puts a tick in that box for him.

    The Doctor ponders why the Teller is forced to do Karabraxos’ will. We later discover it is because the creature’s partner is imprisoned. Could this be mirroring the Doctor’s life? Is this why he really travels all over the universe, to find his lost partner?

    I got all excited when I thought Karabraxos was a Roman name, however, it turns out it is more Greek. In fact, I got Google to churn out that Kara = land and Braxos = Rock. Not sure how accurate or important that is. Any Greeks on the forum?

    Luckily, the BBC site (that @wolfweed) linked earlier points out a Roman reference that I completely missed! Not just Rome but religion and military links too!

    The Doctor mentions an encounter with Cesare Borgia, the Italian nobleman, politician and cardinal born in Rome in the 1470s. He was the brother of the notorious Lucrezia Borgia and widely regarded as a capable general and statesman, ultimately undone by his reliance on his father – Pope Alexander VI. At one point Cesare employed the Doctor’s old friend Leonardo da Vinci as a military architect and engineer and it’s possible that this is when their paths crossed.


    thommck @thommck

    Now for my replies…

    @idiotsavon congrats on the “Don’t Think” prediction. It seems like we are being asked to go against our human nature a lot this series.

    @bluesqueakpip Was the teleport really the same effect as Gretchen’s? I didn’t recognise it as such. Are you saying that from memory or did you go back and double check!?

    @scaryb – Doctor wrote “I am a time traveller” and phone number so the Director would keep it safe. She values the worth of this information so will keep it safe until she is ready to exploit it. The Doctor correctly predicted that in old age she would feel guilty enough about the Teller creatures to use it.
    In regards to where Psi was downloading all of the villains from, presumably the Bank had a “most-wanted” list to look out for, and as the Teller was meant to protect the bank first and foremost, he always saw to the biggest threat first.
    I also thought it was very Douglas Adams, it even looked a bit similar to the (awful) HGTTG film.

    @handles Karabroxos got the TARDIS number from the Doctor in her vault, near the end of the episode.  Then, many years later (in her timeline), old Karabroxos called him in the past to ask him to rescue the Teller monsters … timey wimey.

    @serahni I like how Clara’s not always willing to jump in the TARDIS. It shows how human she is. I think the Doctor is trying to avoid another Amy/Rory departure by interrupting her life all the time at unnecessary moments. He could easily give her a year off. He should really get an older companion, like Wilf, or maybe another robot!

    @banjofiddler – My boys and I all noticed that weird smile Clara had, not very appropriate but I’m guessing it was just a blooper!

    @theatreguy @bluesqueakpip – good points. There was certainly something that struck a bell with her when she spoke to Psi, about him wiping his memories to protect family and friends. It made me think of Donna (@Mudlark beat me to it!)

    @acciotardis – Nice name, does it work? I’m thinking Clara is annoyed that she is mentally ready for a date and then gets interrupted. She knows the Doctor can return her to the same time (or close enough) but its a bit of a mind-f@#$!. Also, those trips with the Doctor aren’t always the safest option! The “chance of death” is very high with his little trips.

    @phileasf Good spot on Danny speaking words out of order.
    The Teller’s orange overalls were very similar to Orson’s. Not sure if that is some kind of link or just more of a “prison-orange” look.

    @gothamcelt The old air-vent trick is a bit cliche but remember, no-one is supposed to be able to get that far so why would they add unnecessary layers of security?

    @brewski I saw in one of the Extra shows that Orson’s “round things” were made from a re-purposed Dalek mould! They still like to cut costs where possible so I don’t think the patterns in the bank were meant to be linked


    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    Anyone else spot how the Doctor was visibly out of breath after the traditional run through the corridors sequence.

    Yup. It’s noticeable that they’re asking the 50+ Capaldi to do a lot less running than the 20+ and 30+ previous AG Doctors 😉

    But if they don’t adjust stuff to fit the actor, we’re going to be permanently confined to Doctors aged 40 and under. Whereas if Capaldi can swing it (and the reaction so far suggests he can), then we’re back to a Doctor who can be played by an actor of any age. Whether that’s as young as Smith and Davison, as old as Capaldi, or playing older than actual age like Hartnell.

    JimmyP @jimmyp

    Hi all, great theorizing already!

    Overall I liked-but-didn’t-love this episode. It might improve with a second viewing, but it niggled for a couple of reasons (that have already been mentioned by others).

    So I felt the music fit well but was a little OTT, like they were forcing a feeling from you.

    And the pacing was off for me, so much that it felt like we were skipping elements and trying to whizz through it. I don’t need the endless exposition you get in a lot of telly these days, but this felt rushed.

    I did really like the 2 supporting characters though and would welcome seeing them back. I also enjoyed the Teller; feels like a while since we’ve had a really effective and totally new ‘monster.’

    The quality of this series is so high that I think I’ve probably just been spoiled, as this was a very decent standalone. I also think there might be more of the overall arc in here than it seems, Clara’s guilt particularly.

    DrBen @drben

    I loved this episode!  I figured out the identity of the Architect about halfway through, but it didn’t lessen my enjoyment of the episode.  A couple minor comments, some of which have already been mentioned upthread (apologies for not @-ing where credit is due):

    • Why did he bring Clara?  I think Clara is there to vouch for the Doctor after they’ve had their memories wiped.  Given that the Doctor (this one, at least) is not exactly warm and fuzzy, there was no way to guarantee that Psi and Sabre (sp?) would listen to him.  So I think Clara’s role is, “yes, I know this man, and you can trust him.”
    • Why isn’t the bank better protected?  Arrogance, and over-confident in their (admittedly impressive) safeguards.  After all, the Teller can sense guilt, and no one should be able to get past that little room where the safe-deposit boxes are delivered in the “atomically sealed” container.  So there’s literally no way to get any further without (a) a memory wipe and (b) a fancy bomb already hidden in one of the vaults.
    • Why does the Doctor grab his arm after Sabre hugs him?  In my memory, she whacks him playfully on the arm before hugging him, or maybe I’m just imagining that.  Maybe she hugs him too forcefully because she’s so excited to be able to hug people and doesn’t know her own strength?

    Great theorizing about the red/blue (I noticed the lights in the hallways as well).  I particularly liked that Karabraxos’ biggest regret at the end was that she’d let the Teller’s species die.  I had expected it to be something materially valuable (although, as my wife pointed out afterwards, why would the Doctor agree to help her if it was just a thing?), and the twist was refreshing.  A little bit of redemption.

    I totally agree that Clara’s little moments when the Teller scanned her have larger significance and will be important later.  What is she meant to remember?  If she simultaneously remembers the lives of all her Claricles, will she become Bad Wolf-like?

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @drben     In my memory, she whacks him playfully on the arm before hugging him     That’s what I thought too. Then I went back and checked, and realized that she whacked him in a totally different area than he place he grabbed. So now I’m going with “not a hugging person”.   🙂

    PhileasF @phileasf

    @idiotsavon(Karabraxos: “I am old, with many many regrets”. Doctor: “I’ve made many mistakes. It’s about time I did something about that”.) Yes, I think there’s a definite parallel.

    @janettebI think here the Doctor really shows just how much he does care. I think you’re right. I’ve completely reversed my ‘sociopath’ opinion since last night, due to… what else but a bonkers theory?

    Here it is:

    Deep Breath has its famous gap just before we see the cyborg impaled, so we don’t know if the Doctor pushed him, or if the cyborg jumped. But maybe the gap contains a third option: the Doctor arranges an escape plan for the cyborg. We might think: he killed the cyborg, that’s dark. We might think: he talked the cyborg into killing himself… that’s still pretty dark. The truth: he saved the cyborg — so he’s still nice!

    In Into the Dalek we are all led to believe those soldiers are really dying. More importantly, all the other characters are led to believe it.

    But if the Doctor arranged for them to be rescued, but allowed it to appear that they were killed, then who is he deceiving?


    Because he’s not clever enough to figure out how to save everyone in advance, like he did with Saibre and Psi. That required detailed planning.

    No: after each adventure, the Doctor is taking the TARDIS back to a convenient spot and secretly saving everyone who died. At least those who died because of him, or while helping him. The benefit of hindsight and lots of working out on the blackboard allows him to come up with a way to save them.

    Time travelling into his own past is a big no-no as it risks paradox and the collapse of the space time continuum. But if the ‘dead’ can be removed to a place of safety a moment before they were killed, and their removal looks exactly the same as being killed, then history is not being messed with, much. The Doctor just has to follow a simple rule: because he’s interacting with his own and Clara’s past, he has to save the ‘dead’ in a way that doesn’t make any difference to the way the events appeared to happen when he and Clara first experienced them.

    History isn’t being changed. There isn’t a version of the events where the people die and another version that looks the same but where they are secretly rescued. We and Clara just didn’t realise those people were being saved. The Doctor knows they look like they’ve died, but haven’t really, because he will have saved them. But since they appeared to die, he knows that when he goes back to save them he’ll have to save them in a way that makes them appear to have died. In short, he has to make sure everything looks exactly like it did when he and Clara and any other witnesses saw it happen.

    This explains why he seems a bit callous when people die: he knows they’re fine.

    I’m sure it all makes sense if you fill up enough butcher’s paper… and your butcher’s paper can be folded through four dimensions.

    This is similar to the way the Doctor escaped his certain death in season 6.

    And it’s what happened to Gallifrey. He thought Gallifrey had been destroyed, but it had been saved all along, by the Doctor(s) time-travelling into his own past and saving Gallifrey in a way that made it look as though it had been destroyed.

    Time Heist is the first time Clara and the audience actually see him save someone who appeared to have died. He had to give the likely victims their escape route in advance, because the TARDIS wouldn’t be able to visit the place and time where they would die, so he wouldn’t be able to save them later. But unlike most of his adventures, he was able to plan every detail of this one in advance. And because he didn’t have to time travel into his own past to rescue Saibre and Psi, paradox didn’t need to be avoided by sending them to Missy’s place.

    In summary, the arc is based on a classic Stephen Moffat idea, bound to infuriate his haters: ‘Everybody lives!’

    Where might this go, story-wise? The Doctor or Clara might catch the future Doctor in the act of saving someone. The future Doctor will say, ‘Oh no, this didn’t happen the first time!’ Hence paradox, hence collapse of the spacetime continuum a la The Wedding of River Song.

    samolnospmis @samolnospmis

    Loved the episode and I think we have been given a glimpse of the post-Clara companion(s) Psi & Saibra – would explain how he knows them, Also the dr has been known to take on slightly criminial companions and guide them into changing their ways – think Cpt Jack, and has had robotic companions before

    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @phileasf I  like your theory. But not sure our-time Doctor knows that people aren’t dying – only his upstream self.

    And if that’s what’s happening then I predict a fall – someone is going to really die for really real and break his hearts down the line.

    “Listen” revealed that Clara and Mr. Pink have kids and that she also has a deep familial connection to the Doctor given that the TARDIS took her to Gallifrey to comfort his child-self – the soldier without a gun. Clever TARDIS – she knows the way into that bubble universe already but knows the Doctor has to get there emotionally on his own. Maybe Missy is indeed a TARDIS manifestation.


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