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@nick Yeah, if anything he’s actually moving forward on his relationship with Missy by letting her out of the Vault and onto his TARDIS, and certainly being honest with her about his misgivings.  If anything he was avoiding the matter by keeping her in the Vault, the “safe” but static choice.

I do put a little stock into the theory that he may be worried his regeneration won’t go off right, if at all (maybe he’s afraid of the Valeyard?) and this is why he’s 1) tutoring Bill in “everything” and 2) trying to see if he can redeem Missy.  So one, the other, or both will be around to pick up where he left off in terms of his virtues and ideals, if he doesn’t make it — or he goes bad and needs to be fought.

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@thane15  Oh, I know.  I was trying to say that — the Doctor did show mercy to Rassilon, etc. but no one seemed to notice/appreciate what he was doing and just treated him as the bad guy (especially Ohila) when he could have been a lot worse.  Kind as the Drylanders and soldiers were to him, that’s not an issue of mercy or forgiveness — just gratitude, decency and kindness.  Which is important too of course.  🙂

The ending seemed to be pointing to the Doctor completely burying the hatchet with the Time Lords and both sides forgiving each other; why would they not?  Why did the Doctor choose to hold his grudge with Me when he could forgive Bonnie?  Questions, questions.  Also, the Doctor did the right thing by saving Me’s life, and meant well.  Intentions are always the most important thing, right?

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@nick  Yeah, the Doctor will have to have at least one significant personal loss in the finale to lead into Christmas.  But what will it take to bring him back to happiness and contentment after that, to encourage him to keep on living in a new form rather than just lay down and die for good?  Especially when Capaldi said this Doctor will go out fighting?

I don’t like the idea of the Twelfth Doctor deciding he’s not “good enough” as he currently is and choosing to regenerate into something “better”, because that does a disservice to him and his character arc.  He tried as hard as any Doctor ever did to live up to the impossible ideals he set for himself, even against some of the most crushing losses any Doctor ever knew (bar Eight and War, both special cases in terms of their sorrows).  He loved whom he loved with great passion and tenderness.  He deserves to be held in the high esteem of those who came before him (if not higher).

Perhaps if Bill does die in “The Doctor Falls”, he will find a way to bring her back from the grave as his last noble, Doctor-y act in the Christmas show…succeeding where he could not with Clara.  Or some angel comes along to show him how awful things would have been had the Twelfth Doctor not been around (the It’s a Wonderful Life conceit), or someone repays him a long overdue debt.

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@janetteb  Also, besides the reconciliation theme there has been in the two most recent episodes, there’s also been the theme of releasing people/creatures this season — not only freeing them from bondage, but just letting them go and accepting the end of things on a personal level (as in “The Pilot” and “Knock Knock”).  In “The Eaters of Light” the Doctor’s accused of wanting to avoid his battle with his own personal monster (Missy), but by letting her stay out of the Vault and in his TARDIS instead, he’s coming closer to finally coming to terms with the whole business after decades just keeping her locked away and their relationship not making all that much progress in the interim.  It’s clear that as this story begins he is just saying the heck with it and testing her sincerity — instead of just letting potentially false hope linger in the air, he’s going to see what’s what at last and take it from there.  It’s risky of course, but the “safe” choice of keeping her locked up isn’t doing her or him any good.

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@janetteb  I think your idea would be the most appropriate ending to this season, indeed — and especially in hard times such as these.

In fact, I would not be surprised at all at this point for the title “The Doctor Falls” to refer to Missy and a final sacrifice, especially given the story’s setup.  Because for one brief shining moment, she really would be the Doctor.  And as Sim-Doctor once said, anyone can be the Doctor if they hold to his principles.  It would still be tragic of course, because he’d lose her and have no guarantees her goodness would hold whenever their paths cross again; he’d lose the last confidant whom can speak and think on his level (save, as I mentioned before, the TARDIS).  But still…for a moment, they really would be friends again.

I do worry though, because Series 9 didn’t fully bear out one of its themes.  The Doctor’s compassion and forgiveness was a running theme, but it didn’t pay off in “Hell Bent” by being returned in kind when he needed it — at least, not by the characters who needed to show it (as opposed to the Drylanders and soldiers, who were kind to him but hadn’t earned his wrath).  He didn’t forgive Rassilon and the Time Lords, nor Me, for what they did to him —  even after he told Bonnie he could forgive her and that the only way people can live in peace is if they forgive.  Nor did they or Ohila forgive him his “sins” even though they were responsible for him getting to that point to begin with.  Ohila chews him out for showing mercy to Rassilon and his cronies by just exiling them, which is far better than those monsters deserved.  And he shows mercy to the heartless General by just forcing him/her to regenerate instead of killing them for good, but nobody points that out.  Why, one could even say that the Doctor showed mercy to us all by not blowing us all up after no one was there for him in the dial, but no one did!  😉

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Okay, here’s something bonkers — Bill gets completely Cyber-converted by the time the Doctor arrives.  He bursts into tears…but then she realizes he’s there, and her love for him and his for her completely shakes off the transformation and there’s a ray of hope amidst all the darkness.  Who wouldn’t love that!  🙂  <3  <3

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@thane15  Oh, I see your points.  🙂  But other sites do have some peppercorns amidst the poo, bringing up — or reminding me of — other reasons Bill Will Live as a Human.  Or, at worst, a Good Cyborg.  😉

• It would be too similar to Danny Pink’s fate if she became/died as a Cyberman, and just how much will this story be borrowing from the Series 8 finale anyway?
• Bill fans will get mad if the Doctor doesn’t go as far to save her as he did to save Clara
• This is a pretty stuffed finale as is, even with an extra 15 minutes for Part Two (2 Masters and their fates, all those Cybermen, Nardole’s fate, the Doctor possibly taking a fatal wound, resolving the Heather situation…)
• There would be a lot of awkward loose ends for the Doctor to tie up with regards to St. Luke’s, Moira, and Bill’s friends if she died or became a cyborg (“Face the Raven” at least had the deleted script scene that went into such matters for Clara’s loved ones and colleagues).  In fact, what will become of the Doctor’s tenure at St. Luke’s as it is, now that he won’t need to worry about the Vault?
• He’s already lost Clara and River, and now it looks like he’ll have to let go of Missy.  Nardole’s chances aren’t looking good.  He has no other confidantes at this point unless one counts the TARDIS.  If he loses Bill to the grave on top of all that, this finale will be so much of a downer that the Christmas special will have to really go nuts to be an uplifting rejoinder to it.   By “nuts” I mean something like “all his lost loves and friends come back from the dead because they love him and are so repentant that they died and break his hearts, and the Time Lords welcome him back and make him Lord President of Gallifrey for Eternity and give him another regeneration cycle, and Susan comes back too, and Romana, and…”  😉

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An interesting conceit raised over in the “Eaters of Light” thread is that Missy knows, or at least senses, what is going to happen to the Doctor and company — and that’s why she’s crying.  If indeed she’s teamed up with Saxon, this makes sense, given how multi-Doctor encounters have worked.  She is having premonitions that no matter how much she wants to change, in the end she won’t be able to, and the Doctor will suffer for it even as he lives to fight another day.

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@nick  I remember another interview with Gomez saying that wherever Missy goes, Cybermen will be also.  She even teased that Missy could be a Cyberman!

It’s possible the Doctor, Nardole, and Bill simply forgot about the shuttle in the process of saving Bill from Heather and subsequently taking her on as a companion, given that the next two episodes took place in immediate succession.

I would also think a slower conversion process could make a big difference — especially for poor Bill.   And IIRC from the Doctor Who Magazine preview, the hospital ward is actually on the giant spaceship.  Which is undergoing time dilation that causes thousands of years to pass in one section, but just a few days in another…

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@nick This supports my suspicion that the Doctor’s crisis is much more than it seems…that Bill may not actually be due for a grave, but an “operation”.  Can she resist it?  Her mind seems a strong one…I have a hunch somebody’s laid quite the trap for our heroes, going all the way back to that unseen ship in “The Pilot”.

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Ahhh, it’s frustrating not to be able to make the truly bonkers speculations.  My problem is that I think not only in terms of what characters do in-universe, but in terms of what the creators can and can’t do, what audiences will go with and what they won’t, etc.  Much too practical.  😉

I am fascinated with the Doctor’s plan to test Missy’s sincerity, risky though it be.  Sure, she can be all goody-goody around him, but what if he’s not right there?  Even knowing she’s watching him, can she resist her worse impulses?  Be responsible for others (i.e. companions)?

But of course the heart of it is this: The universe shows its true face when it asks for help, and those who are asked show their true faces by how they respond…

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@nick Thank you — I’m flattered.

Ah yes, the video clip too…hadn’t seen that.  But combine that with the promo photo of the Mondasian Cybermen walking down a street…it does suggest a city setting, no?  For that matter, the recently leaked photo of a Cyberman and the Doctor walking through a great, broken-down wooden door brings to mind the look of the execution planet.  And then there was the Red Nose Day contest promo video with Capaldi in character as Twelve alongside a modern Cyberman…in a forest.  And there’s a noticeable cut on Twelve’s forehead.  The scope of this finale may well be huge, rather than confined to the spaceship as I first thought.  Perhaps we’ll get to see Mondas at last?

@wolfweed I know that a lot of people found the continuity parade denouement of “The End of Time” Part Two to be excessive, so Moffat might not want to repeat that, especially if he’s only giving an hour over to this Christmas special (why not make it feature length to bookend “Deep Breath”, though?).

I think a lot depends on whether Bill appears in the regeneration story.  Assuming she survives “The Doctor Falls”, she and the Doctor might still part ways at the end of that, which is almost par for the course in season finales. Especially so if Heather is brought into the action; it would be odd to raise the possibility of a reunion and not follow through, and her being connected to the Cybermen is not out of the question.  Or Bill might choose to leave, feeling exhausted.  Or the Doctor might send her away knowing his end is near.  This of course doesn’t rule out Bill coming back for the regeneration, but it would be unusual, especially if she’s not going to be a recurring character in Series 11 — how would they be separated then?

But if Bill is not in the regeneration story — and I’ve got a hunch Nardole won’t survive “The Doctor Falls”, especially with Gomez’s tease of Missy doing at least one despicable thing for kicks in that episode — then there should be at least one familiar character alongside the Twelfth Doctor.  A regeneration story isn’t the time to introduce a new companion, and he shouldn’t have to “die” totally alone.

I know the most popular rumor is that the Christmas episode is going to be a First Doctor/Twelfth Doctor team-up, but there are a few other plausible scenarios:

• Twelve’s side of “The Day of the Doctor”
• Twelve mending his fences with the Time Lords over the events of “Hell Bent”
• A reunion with Clara Oswald to “properly” bring closure to their story — or at least a cameo as he regenerates (I’ve read at Tumblr that the diner used to represent the diner TARDIS’ interior has been booked for filming…)
• A reunion with Susan Foreman, probably the biggest possibility seeded in this season that hasn’t paid off as yet
• A Dalek story of some kind, since they haven’t had a major role since “The Witch’s Familiar” and there should be some payoff to Twelve energizing them

Any other suggestions?  🙂

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The Radio Times‘ speculation is at it again, wondering which character the Doctor has “pledged to protect” will end up dead next week, forcing the Doctor to try and save them any way he can.  At this point, going by the Next Time trailer and official synopsis combined with this season’s developments, it’s narrowed down to either Missy or Bill. It’s Bill’s death that has been teased quite a bit in promotional materials from the start, and she came awfully near the grave in both “Oxygen” and “The Lie of the Land”.  She also appears to be the one gunned down in the Next Time trailer, and the Doctor once out of the TARDIS interacts with Missy, not Bill.  And of course, the Doctor losing a companion he cares deeply about because his faith in Missy’s potential for goodness was misplaced would be a suitably tragic flashpoint for a grim finale storyline.

Is Pearl Mackie’s Bill going to die in the series finale?

But as the article points out, if Bill’s death is going to be really-for-real-you-guys!, it wouldn’t be this heavily foreshadowed and teased.  And between that, the time dilation concept, that shot of the hospital ward, the fact that Pearl Mackie is listed as being in “The Doctor Falls”, and the really misleading promos for “The Lie of the Land” and the first Series 10 trailer proving nothing can be trusted, I think it’s more likely that by the end of “World Enough and Time” she’ll be saved from the grave, but still in as much in danger as the others, with “The Doctor Falls” revealing her — and everybody else’s — ultimate fate.

Another reason for this is making the first companion in the revival to die-really-for-real-with-no-hope-of-a-loophole-you-guys! the one who’s only the show’s second long-term companion of color (as opposed to Mickey, who only had a few trips) and the first to be openly LGBT (whereas Clara’s bisexuality was pretty much a winking joke,  Jack only had a few trips, and River isn’t usually considered a companion) would be just asking for a huge outcry from fans.  Bad enough that many fans felt Martha got a raw deal from the Tenth Doctor, but last spring there was a disturbing trend of sci-fi/fantasy shows in the U.S. killing off female characters who were black and/or LGBT.  I would hope that the Moff and company noticed how badly that went over with those shows’ fanbases (it pretty much destroyed Sleepy Hollow, which killed off the co-lead).  Bill Potts has been, far as I can tell, one of the best-received revival-era companions — a shock death would be pretty upsetting for a lot of fans.  I think she and the Doctor are the most likely to survive this storyline.  Her more than the Twelfth Doctor actually, what with all the teases that he’ll get his fatal wound in this story!

Also, Bill getting killed and there being no more to it than that would probably fall into the “women in refrigerators” trope — i.e., a female character’s death is used to upset the main male character and/or motivate his actions for the remainder of the story, but nothing more, effectively using her as a prop.  Missy killing [an] Osgood in “Death in Heaven” was criticized as being this, as she (by her own admission) really didn’t have a reason to kill her except to prove she was Evil and upset the Doctor — as if hijacking the afterlife, killing a bunch of other people, and creating a zombie Cyberman army hadn’t proven/done that already.

No, I suspect there’s more to all this than it seems.  Perhaps the “death” isn’t even a death to begin with.  Seems like a wonderful way to lure the tender-hearted Twelfth Doctor into a trap…  😉

(Deposits $0.02)

Also — what to make of Saxon!Master asking for a kiss?  “Give us a kiss” is a phrase I associate with old relatives asking their kids for a peck on the cheek myself…or is it just more “foe yay” in action, which would surprise none of us?  😉

And finally, the finale is titled “The Doctor Falls”.  Yes — but which one?

(cackles and flies off on a broomstick)  😀

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Also…Michelle Gomez noted in an interview (I think one of the io9.com pieces) that what’s to come with Missy and Saxon is a sort of “two-headed Master” — and worried that was too much of a spoiler.

Now I know my 2-headed beasties in pop culture.  While a many-headed creature like a hydra has its heads working in perfect unison, when there are only two heads, well, they’re willing to collaborate, certainly…when they’re not busy gnawing at each other’s throat.

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The main concern about Missy not following on from Saxon is that it could really screw up the timelines relating to Gallifrey being saved.  Since it was Missy who got the Doctor and Clara Oswald together, and it was only Clara’s protests that led to Gallifrey being saved instead of burned…it’s just a big ball isn’t it?  😉

Also…one of the latest tie-in books, A Brief History of Time Lords, has an interesting take about why Rassilon was suddenly obsessed with the Hybrid prophecy.  In-universe, the book is presented as a scathing expose of the Time Lords, and the fictional author suggests that maybe Missy’s clever idea, after she fled Skaro, was to remind him of it and that the Doctor knew things about it.  The author then claims Rassilon not only laid a trap for the Doctor but ordered Clara’s execution, suggesting the trap was even more devious than we knew.  The Doctor couldn’t resist a mystery, and Clara couldn’t resist a chance to save a friend?…wow!

(And who is this in-universe author?  Why, not some Time Lord noble but a Drylander who met the Doctor once but once, when he told him to run ahead to the Citadel.  “His eyes…they were the kindest and most terrifying eyes I’d ever seen.”)

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@pedant  Poor Doctor’s headed for tragedy.  Hope is a terrible thing on the scaffold, and he’ll be on it soon.  Be brave, be brave!  😉

This was a lovely episode, probably the best overall since “Extremis” wrapped up the season’s first half.  And the ending is a nice lead into next week’s vale of sorrows.

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@ichabod Exactly.  It — or she, if one likes — knows what must be, and what must be for him.  She knows his sorrows and that they must be, but also his joys and that they must be.  Footprints in the sand…

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Yeah, that seems like awfully small potatoes.  Actually — any word on the runtime of ” The Doctor Falls”?  I can’t imagine 2 Masters, Cybermen, resolving Bill and Nardole’s situations, etc. can all fit into 45 minutes, and the last two finales were at least 55 minutes each.  About the only way this can be 45 is if it directly leads into the Xmas show.

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This is somewhat old news, but I think it’s still relevant — if unusual.

Some here may be familiar with Mystery Science Theater 3000, the show that made poking fun at B-movies an art form in the 1990s.  It was recently revived with a new cast on Netflix, but the original show’s performers are still out and about with side projects such as Rifftrax, a service that — thanks to the power of podcasting — provides MST3K-style comic commentaries on all sorts of movies.  They marked the 50th Anniversary of Doctor Who by giving the Peter Cushing films from the 1960s a cheerful razzing.

Rifftrax does several live shows each year which are beamed to movie theaters by Fathom Events, the same group that’s handled Doctor Who events since 2013 (3D “Day of the Doctor”, etc.).  I’ve been to several of these myself.  Now, thanks to a Kickstarter campaign working out,  the Rifftrax crew of Mike Nelson, Bill Corbett and Kevin Murphy are able to work their cheeky but affectionate magic on…

“The Five Doctors”!  Yep, they ponied up the dough to the BBC to have a little fun with a favorite story.  This live show will be streamed to U.S. movie theaters August 17 (plus a replay the following week).  Here’s the video they made to announce it:

RiffTrax Live: “The Five Doctors” announcement

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@ichabod, Yes, sadly it is impossible, and I think that will be how the Doctor “falls” — he fails to redeem her and blames himself for it in the end, perhaps.

But there is someone else who “knows all about him, understands his background and experience, can talk with him as a knowledgeable equal”, remember.

It’s the TARDIS!

So long as he has the TARDIS, he will never truly be lonely.  It will help him find the people he needs to be with, so he won’t be so lonesome.  Maybe that will be the heart of the Christmas episode…

Maybe it will bring him back to Susan, or Clara, or etc.

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@missy And think of all he’s gone through since he had to lose his memories of Clara to make up for his mistakes — he’s effectively homeless since there’s no indication he’s returned to Gallifrey, is still hurting over having to let River Song go to her fate, stuck with the duty of watching over Missy and not being able to make off-Earth trips for decades.  Bill brightened up his life, but his getting out into the universe again has led to more problems for him — near-death, blindness, six months working as a mole amongst the Monks, etc.  And he still has to come to terms with the Missy business at some point; this situation cannot hold.  And he’s at least two centuries old now, and his body was not a “spring chicken” to begin with — he can’t pretend he’s hale and hearty as Ten and Eleven could.  I think he knows he’s got one foot in the grave, and isn’t sure what’s ahead for him.

Poor guy’s just wearing thin…

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Big Finish has just announced a clutch of War Master audios starring Derek Jacobi; Volume One arrives in December.

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@lisa I agree that this fussing over the Doctor’s state of mind is important yet may be missing a forest for the trees. Can Missy be good, and for how long?  That’s the most pressing question. The finale would be tragic enough if she cannot be… 😉

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I was thinking about possible directions for the Christmas episode/Twelve’s finale, and was reminded that It’s a Wonderful Life-type plots have shown up in Who before, to some extent.  “Turn Left” is a variant on that concept, and so is Eleven’s arc in Series 5 and 6 (he comes to think he’s just become a bigger monster than those he fights, but he’s then shown that he’s loved by so many).  And “The Day of the Doctor” has the War Doctor being shown his future in hopes it will lead him to take a better path in life.

So what can be done with the Twelfth Doctor that might be similar but not too derivative?  Assuming that he undergoes a heartwrenching personal failure in the season finale — most likely not being able to (fully?) redeem Missy, leaving him without the last long-term friend he had — how can he be convinced that his lives are still worth living and that he is still loved by so many, especially when this particular life has been marked with a lot of death, loss, and abandonment?

At the end of It’s a Wonderful Life many of those people George Bailey has helped come around to help him by raising the funds to make up for the lost/stolen bank money.  Maybe that could be what happens for Twelve — he feels lost and helpless but all the characters whom he got to know over the previous three seasons come back to prop him up.  Let’s see, there’s Clara Oswald, Danny Pink, the Paternoster Gang, River Song, the Osgoods, Kate Stewart, Courtney Woods, Ashildr/Me, Ohila, the General, Bill Potts and Nardole…

And of course, Susan Foreman.  🙂

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(sigh)  I expected the grisly news of the fire to be the top story on our American morning news shows yesterday, but instead it turned out to be something closer to home — the assassination attempt on Republican congressmen at a baseball practice.  No one but the shooter is dead as of yet, but there were some bad wounds.  It’s pretty much dominated our cycle here, even as another mass shooting that actually had casualties (at a UPS facility in San Francisco) took place later that day.

I am hoping against hope now that Moffat is totally trolling about “The Doctor Falls” and it’s going to be a gloriously happy finale instead, because seeing the Doctor’s ideals lead to a happy ending is the story we need right now, not a tale of death and woe and failure…

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The idea of a Doctor Who season built on just one storyline seems awfully risky because it could be extremely limiting in terms of what could be done from episode to episode.  Would there be only one or two major antagonists faced again and again?  How to justify a wide variety of monsters, settings, and secondary/tertiary characters?  If there’s one largely consistent complaint about AG Who it’s that it’s been awfully Earthbound/human-focused.

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@ichabod , @missy

@ichabod wrote:

And I agree with @missy that he’s been playing fast and loose with that big brain of his (talk about recklessness!).  Maybe he’ll choose to regenerate because he faces the fact that he can’t depend on his self definition any more — too many mistakes lately?

I think he is “wearing thin” and his recent exploits are speeding it up somewhat, taking their toll on his dying mind and spirit.  In fact, he could well be terminally ill — and have been so all along this season, even.  But he can’t just “jump” to his next life; the way the show tends to present regeneration, it would be a sort of suicide, and that’s pretty dark as a way for a Doctor to go out.  A slow death like this is nightmarish enough as it is.

Blastr had an article yesterday discussing one theory that’s been floated — perhaps The Doctor had to, accidentally or on purpose, give up his ability to regenerate to save Missy from execution; he absorbed some of the energy that was to finish her off.  So he’s slowly dying, and since he isn’t expecting to live again, he’s been mentoring Bill in hopes she can, in some way, carry on his work when he’s gone, and trying to tie up his affairs with Missy as the last good deed of his lives.

That’s an interesting take, but Sim-Doctor noted that the eyesight-restoring device could jeopardize future lives and/or his ability to regenerate, and the Doctor was able to fool around a bit with regeneration energy for Bill’s “test”.  I think he can still regenerate, but if he’s ill and knows The End is near, he’s understandably anxious that it won’t go off properly, especially since he doesn’t know how many lives he has left, and has gone through experiences like the dial that may have compromised it in ways he doesn’t yet know.  So he doesn’t want to take any chances that his affairs aren’t all in order, at least as much as he can make them (does he even have the dial anymore?).  What his illness is, well it could be all sorts of things couldn’t it?  It may or may not be what Missy noticed at the end of this episode, anyway.

What I want to know is why Susan was brought up at the top of this season.  The revival had never mentioned her before in such a way, and so far there hasn’t been a payoff to that as there was with River Song…could this lead into the Christmas special?

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Chris Chibnall and collaborators talk a bit about their new direction for Who.  No spoilers, but at this point it’s expected to air in the autumn of 2018.  One idea being floated is one giant storyline running through a season, ala Broadchurch.  Who thinks that might work?  🙂

Radio Times article

Also, I can think of a few reasons its mainstream profile isn’t as high right now — ageism, notable lack of Twelfth Doctor-specific merchandising, poor scheduling for Series 9, more competition in general…  😉

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@nick Oh — about the Moff and the long game…good question!

Well, originally Clara’s story was to wrap up with “Death in Heaven”, but because Jenna Coleman decided to stay it was extended first with “Last Christmas” and then Series 9.  Given how much Clara’s story had to evolve, it’s remarkable that it hangs together at all and ties well into the Twelfth Doctor’s saga.

Moffat went into Series 9 with the intent of it being his last series, which is why it ends with several major plot threads and arcs being resolved:

• The Hybrid storyline
• The saga of Ashildr
• Clara Oswald’s character arc
• The Doctor’s search for Gallifrey
• The Doctor’s relationship with Clara Oswald
• The Doctor’s relationship with River Song

This would have given the next showrunner a relatively clean slate even with an established Doctor; he no longer was seeking out his home, and he was no longer in a long-term relationship.  But in the end he decided to stick around one more year and bring Twelve’s story to a close.  That’s one reason I don’t think the finale leading into the Christmas show can be too grim.  Ten and Eleven’s tenures ended up in pretty positive places for ending in regenerations, and Twelve hasn’t had his “day” as yet.  But I’m just thinking logically…

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@nick  I do think it wasn’t fair that the Doctor couldn’t properly grieve his loss once he was free of the dial, thanks to the mind wipe.  Granted, it would have been challenging to find the kind of emotional support he would need for that…Ohila and the Time Lords would have been no help.  The so-called little people of Gallifrey couldn’t begin to understand.  Who could?  I do feel the story painted itself into a corner in this regard, and it did take an easy way out, but there was still meaning in the ending that was.

As for moving on to River Song and seeing that relationship through…he didn’t want to accept that ending either, for the longest time.  But maybe he needed the experience of losing Clara to make him see that there’s no point forever holding off on the inevitable.  He does remember he went too far because he couldn’t accept their relationship ending, but he’s no longer clouded by the high emotions that drove him to that point — since he doesn’t recall why he loved Clara — and can see his behavior more clearly.

In fact, perhaps being put in that firey crucible was what turned him into someone who could fully return River’s love, and understand why once upon a Time Lord she almost destroyed the universe for him.  Two broken souls, finally able to understand the other’s sorrow and hunger…

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@thane15  Ah, just saw your latest post.  Yes, each companion is special in their own way, and Clara happened to have a particularly important role in all of his lives up to that point, just by being the Impossible Girl.  And then she convinced him that Gallifrey didn’t have to fall, allowing him to undo his greatest regret and crime.  And then she convinced the Time Lords to give him another set of lives when he was ready to breathe his last.  And then she was the first lifeline he had as his Twelfth self, the first anchor he had.  He came to love her for all that.  How could he not go so far for her as she would for him?  It was a tragic folly of course, but he felt he’d failed her after so long, feeling he was “nothing” compared to her…Missy was half-right.  He’d go to Hell for her if she asked…but he’d do it even if she didn’t ask!

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@thane15  I think the idea of the Doctor being “cowardly” in “Hell Bent” is in the sense that he wasn’t brave enough to accept Clara’s death and facing the universe without her (“Look how far I went for fear of losing you”), but you’re right that it’s more selfish than cowardly.  When she finally got through to him that he wasn’t respecting her free will by trying to erase her memories of him so she could live a nice “safe” life, he realized that it was selfish of him to make her suffer any more than she already had just because he was unhappy.  And while he didn’t dishonor other companions, he didn’t honor her order to him not to lose sight of his best self.  On the other hand, she didn’t know what he was about to go through either.  It’s complex!

I had an interesting chat with a friend about his “Thin Ice” dilemma.  As she saw it, it was two bad choices he was facing and he had to think fast.  She happens to live in Minnesota, where incidents on icy water are common come winter.   “The force of pulling the boy up would have pulled them both down.”  (And this is before considering the boy is in fact being pulled downwards, and there’s barely a hole to pull him up through in the first place.)  If the Doctor ended up going under too, possibly drowning (the sort of death that can be fast enough to preclude regeneration, that actually happening in the alternate timeline of “Turn Left” to Ten) and/or freezing, what would Bill do then?   He is about the only person around equipped to figure out a situation this bizarre, and upon realizing that trying to save the boy had a too-slim chance of success, he winds up admitting defeat, going with the self-preservation option salvaging the screwdriver, and moving on to figure out what’s going on and hopefully stop any more carnage.  It’s a harsh reminder, and Bill’s first experience, of how the Doctor can’t save everybody; he isn’t that kind of infallible hero.

As for the situation in “Smile”, that was more a mistake than anything.  His mind sometimes — often — jumps to the wrong conclusions, especially when time seems to be of the essence, and he honestly believed he would be protecting humans by blowing up a bunch of robots, not realizing the humans were already there.

Also, in a way, the Doctor isn’t the only one, or at least doesn’t have to be.  After all, it’s a title — a promise he made to himself, an ideal he lives up to on his good days.  On the others he’s just a bloke in a box telling stories who makes mistakes, is weak, fails — a man with no name.  In any case, others could take up the promise for themselves, be Doctors in spirit if not in title.  The Sim-Doctor realized he wasn’t the real Doctor, but he didn’t have to be.  He just had to honor one of the real one’s core principles — to never give up or give in if there’s a chance to do good — and that made him the Doctor, if only for a precious shining moment.

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@nick wrote:

He had the chance to say a final goodbye and find the beginnings of an emotional closure (an overused word) to companion Clara. But he fails that test and runs from the best answer, which would be to stop and return Clara to her grave.

I myself thought the story would have had a better ending had they just gone back to Gallifrey, but over at TVTropes, where I broached this idea, someone responded very thoughtfully with this explanation with why they didn’t:  Basically, the Doctor was never going to be able to move on from Clara and just take her back himself.  He was too broken to choose the best answer; it was no longer an option for him.  And he can’t fail a test if he’s not equipped to take it anymore.

This makes sense.  Back in “The Girl Who Died”, he’d said that when she was gone he would run and run but never be able to forget her.  And that was before she not only died unjustly, but he was imprisoned, isolated, and tortured and unable to have any hope of processing his grief in a healthy manner.  He was driven insane — and no one in the universe could hope to mend his mind, certainly no one on Gallifrey.  And even if he’d had the strength to just take her back, and assuming he didn’t just start thinking of other ways to bring her around that didn’t risk the universe…he’d be traveling around the universe a sick, unstable man forevermore.  Because no one would be able to live up to Clara — not only for who she was but what she accomplished — he’d probably never take on companions again.  He wouldn’t want to help others anymore, because look what happened because he helped Ashildr and her people, he lost the love of his lives!  He’d become little better than Missy, and possibly worse.

So the only hope he had to actually move on, and be a Doctor again, was not so much to give Clara back to the grave, but <i>for one of them to no longer love and cherish the other.</i>  It was the only way to make a clean break — if one means little to the other, why should the other fuss over them?

Given that Clara and the audience only have the Doctor’s word to go on that he doesn’t know what will happen when the neural block is activated, it’s possible that he deliberately mind-wiped himself.  By losing all the memories of Clara that meant anything to him in terms of their personal relationship, as opposed to the adventures they had — her appearance, voice, affections, etc. — he would no longer be consumed by his now-toxic love for her and could be his best self again.  He could judge people on their own merits, rather than compare them to Clara (look at all the trouble Ten had for not getting over Rose…).

And Clara does intend to go back to her death, albeit the long way ’round; she’s the one strong enough to go back all along.  The Doctor knows and trusts that she will, which is why he gives her all that advice at the end.  She became more and more like him in the course of her travels, and he knew that she was better equipped, in that moment, to be him than he was able to be of late.  In his folly, she became a Doctor herself at last — near-immortality, companion, TARDIS and all.  Where he had to take a punishment for not accepting the end of their relationship, she ended up with a reward for accepting it.

So he basically lobotomizes himself, and no longer has the two-ton weight of Clara hanging upon his memory.  It’s not a perfect solution to his dilemma, and not the one I would have chosen…but it works well enough.

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@ichabod on the Doctor and healing:

Probably nobody, fully, until he heals himself — by regenerating; turning the page on 12.

Hmm, I am not so sure about that.  The idea that no one can help him to heal sounds like what everyone was chiding me about thinking before — the idea that no one truly loves the Doctor.  But River said he was loved by so many.

Perhaps this will be the heart of the Christmas special/regeneration story.  After he loses so much in the finale, probably making another choice to let go on the way, then and only then will someone finally be there for him in his hour of sorrow and metaphorical death, after the universe failed him in the confession dial.

Perhaps it will be Clara Oswald.

Perhaps it will be River Song.

Perhaps it will be Susan Foreman.

Perhaps it will be Ohila.

Perhaps it will be the Paternoster Gang.

Perhaps it will be Bill Potts.

Perhaps it will be the Osgood “sisters”.

Perhaps it will be the Time Lords.

Perhaps it will be someone entirely new…

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@ichabod  I think you’re on to something about the Doctor simply being more prone to alien-ness this year; the Moff mentioned that was going to be the case.  Given what we know of his circumstances now, it’s not surprising, and you’re right that we’ve seen it before.  That’s why I’m not seeing his behavior as especially unusual.  🙂

Also, a friend of mine had some interesting ideas of her own about the TARDIS and/or Missy’s behavior — could it be under some other force’s control?  Is there a plot against the Doctor?  Is Missy gaslighting him into believing he’s not well?  Questions, questions…

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@ichabod Thank you.  I’m doing a lot of feeling about as to where it’s all going, some of it from the official spoilers, some from clues in earlier episodes.  I see something more optimistic — yet tragic — for it than most, I suppose.  But that’s for another thread…

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I just had another weird way to approach the title “The Doctor Falls” — what if that refers to one of his duties?  Something that comes in the line of being a Doctor?  The firefighter fights fires, the butler buttles, the barman serves drinks…the Doctor falls.  Nah, it’s too silly…  🙂

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@pedant  Excellent point.  This particular Doctor’s been unusually broken by his experiences, he couldn’t find people on his home world who could understand what he’s been through, and even a mind wipe can’t take all the hurt away.  He had a reprieve with River, and was strong enough to let her go after 24 happy years together…but it still hurt.  No wonder he couldn’t just let Missy fry.  Beyond wanting to live up to his chosen identity as The Doctor, he has next to no one left in his lives at this point…(sniffle)

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By the by, another reason I don’t think the Doctor will completely bottom out in “The Doctor Falls” (and remember that many finale titles don’t tell the whole story) is because if there isn’t some spark of hope at the end, no one would want to see the Christmas special!  😉

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@nick I suggested the It’s a Wonderful Life idea, actually.  But I don’t think a complete moral failure for Twelve is in the cards; it would largely rehash “Hell Bent”.  I think, rather, he’ll make some good choices, some bad, and things will go badly for him <i>in spite of </i>his best efforts and he’ll wonder if it’s worth being the Doctor at all.  In It’s a Wonderful Life, the protagonist usually makes the selfless choices in life, and loses/gives up most of (though not all) his own desires and dreams in the process.  And for all that, one day he ends up facing complete ruin thanks to the mistakes and evil of others.  He has a breakdown, forgets all the good things in his life, and wonders if all of it was worth it, and then he’s shown he made the world better for his choices and existence, far better than it might have been otherwise.  He chooses life and then he sees that he was cared for, far more than he knew.  It would be fascinating to see such a story template applied to this particular Doctor…

(Good heavens, I’m in tears now…I need to get to bed…)

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@nick  Thank you for respecting my perspective.  We’ll just have to agree to disagree…

I saw the Doctor’s choice to save Missy as the heart of the in extremis concept.  He did it “without hope, without witness, without reward”.  Because he knows he can’t trust her, he can’t put too much hope in her being good, and he knows it’s going to be nothing but trouble for him to watch her.  He doesn’t gain anything from it, doesn’t expect to.  If he let her fry he’d have the satisfaction of knowing there’d be no more deaths at her hands, the satisfaction of revenge even for all the misery she’s caused him.  He came very close to slaying her (or seeming to slay her, of course) back in “Death in Heaven”.

But he does have a clear chance to save her from the grave at that execution.  And she isn’t a Dalek or a Cyberman, regarded as “less than” in terms of who it is and isn’t acceptable to kill (to talk about mass killings…).  She could be redeemed, so long as there’s breath in her body.  And if there is a chance…even a small, hopeless chance…he can redeem her…then the cruel, cowardly choice would be to never take it and never try.  To give up.

He will come to this choice again soon enough, I believe.  And if she proves unable to be good?  Well, in the end it is not his fault what she chooses to do, though I would not be surprised if he blames himself, like he did when Clara died.  He had to understand that it was her choice to take the risks she did…And that was part of what made him un-Doctor-y in “Hell Bent” — that he could not respect and accept the choices she made and what they led to, and tried to take away her free will just to ease his unhappy conscience.

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@nick, @bluesqueakpip, etc… Although there’s a good point about how the Doctor’s Time War experiences have helped change the dynamic of the Doctor/Master relationship, and I think the comments about their relationship in general are spot on…well, to be honest, I think the Doctor is still the Doctor.

I got the sense in “Thin Ice” that he realized he couldn’t pull that poor kid up through the ice, and though the sonic’s replaceable, well, under that kind of pressure you’re trying to get what you can…and how exactly was he supposed to try and save Puddle!Heather?  Yes, the Doctor does save the innocent whenever he can.  But sometimes he just can’t.  Heck, a major theme of Series 9 was that there were times when he’s saved innocents when it would have been better to let them die.  Look at all the trouble saving Ashildr caused him.  Nobody ever spoke up in his defense on that.  And nobody treated him as a hero for trying to save Clara.  He had a chance to save an innocent woman and took it, but…

No, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the Doctor in the sense he isn’t the Doctor.   Might he be ill and in a slow regenerative state?  Perhaps.  But I think the heart of things is that he must learn to let go of Missy, and his vow.  His relationship with her is reaching a crisis point; they cannot keep being prisoners.  The problem is he doesn’t know what to do next.  He can’t just let her go in the sense of letting her go free; he knows she’s not trustworthy.  He doesn’t know if she’s sincere, but her behavior is so different than it would usually be, and that’s causing him a lot of distress.  He wants to save her — because she was an innocent once, it was the Time Lords who got in the way to drive her mad after all — but he doesn’t know how, or if he even can.  But the TARDIS knows, perhaps, that it can’t keep being a stalemate.  He’s going to have to make the tough choices soon.

(Though given Missy’s abilities, and past history with the TARDIS, she could have manipulated things…)

(Deposits $0.02)

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@thane15  Yes — until the Twelfth Doctor era began, there were 13 episodes plus a post-finale Christmas special each season.  Ten also had the 2009 specials, and Eleven had a bonus Christmas special (because “The Snowmen” came midway through Series 7) and “The Day of the Doctor”.  Ten and Eleven also had quite a few supplementary shorts for online, DVD, Children in Need, and theatrical release.

Twelve’s era has been only 12 episodes and a Christmas show each season, plus an extra Christmas special with “The Return of Doctor Mysterio” due to the long gap between Series 9 and 10.  There’s only been 4 bonus shorts — the “Deep Breath” prelude with the Paternoster Gang that’s on the standalone DVD release of the episode, the two prequel shorts to “The Magician’s Apprentice”, and “Friend from the Future”.

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It’s possible, @geoffers — I’ve thought of the Sherlock connection myself — but with what little’s been released about the storyline of “World Enough and Time” and “The Doctor Falls” so far, it’s hard to say.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the ending has the Doctor succeeding against the Cybermen, but “losing” Missy in some way, perhaps with his realizing along the lines of “Hell Bent” it’s best to let her go, and doing something to tie off the companions’ arcs if need be (as there’s no indication as yet that either Bill or Nardole will appear in the Christmas show).

That would be interesting — the “World Enough and Time” synopsis and the Doctor Who Magazine article bringing up time dilation suggests he’s trying to prevent her death after he somehow has a glimpse of the future and sees it happen.  That is to say, it’s not a fixed point in time yet;  why, that would be like what happened in “Pyramid” when he received news the world would soon end but knew that he could still try and prevent that from happening!

Perhaps, unlike in “Hell Bent”, he doesn’t give up his principles to try and save her — but given whom he’s trying to save, his principles can only go so far, and bring great dangers upon him in the process.  And in the end, he must let go.

Then when it’s all over there’s a twist setting up the Christmas show, something to do with the shape the Doctor’s left in, or someone unexpected turning up.  Or something.  🙂

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@bluesqueakpip  @nick I think your readings of the Doctor/Master relationship are thoughtful ones, especially the conceit that Missy truly wants to be the Doctor’s friend but doesn’t know how to do that.

@whisht The TARDIS does know the two of them well, doesn’t she?  And I think that’s key.

A while back in the “Oxygen” thread, I was wondering about the TARDIS being unusually well-behaved this year — always getting him back to the Vault in time — but at the same time, she’s wanted the Doctor to forget about his vow and explore again since at least “The Pilot”.   She let him know of Chasm Forge‘s distress, took him and his companions there, and just look what happened!

I theorized then that the Doctor’s vow, though noble, well-meant, etc. was holding him back from fully being the Doctor, tying him down to a safe, dull life where he can’t learn and grow and become a better man — as he does when he travels.  @ichabod had this to say in response:

And, to your point about deliberately cocking a snook at whoever set him to guarding the vault (even if it was  himself!), well, he’s a rebel TL when all’s said and done, and none of his losses and resultant wisdom is likely to change that.  He doesn’t take orders — even from himself.  I like your point about “guarding the one thing” that’s over-ridingly important being an experience he had with Clara, and it didn’t end well for him in some major respects (not that he remembers the emotional experience, just the raw details).  Is the Doctor nailed down to one task instead of roaming the universe putting his foot in it still “the Doctor”?

I think all that still stands.  He saved Missy from the grave and is determined to keep to the vow that keeps her alive and safe — and the universe safe from her!  But as he told her in “Knock Knock”, this has just made them both prisoners.  They’re both safe, but neither of them can truly grow, change, become better people, in this state.  It’s still not clear how much time has really passed since the day he almost slew her, but how much longer can this go on for either of them?  A present spent dwelling on the past, with the future so far away?

So I think the TARDIS is continuing to push the Doctor to reconsider his vow.  She knows that he lives to liberate people from their chains, he’s been doing that all season.  And he wants to travel again, just be himself, not be limited to this painful task of protection.  He isn’t as consumed by his need to take care of the Vault and Missy as he was by his duty of care to Clara — at least not since he met Bill — hence Nardole needling him about it so often.  But this deeply personal relationship with Missy is still holding him back.   Perhaps that will be key to the finale — his coming to an understanding that he needs to free himself and her from this and let the chips fall where they may.

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@janetteb It would be interesting indeed — a sort of Time Lord terminal illness, perhaps.  A lingering effect of the confession dial ordeal?  (Sniff)

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The TARDIS is a wise old girl…perhaps she — and the Doctor — know there is a course to be completed, things that must be done before he “sleeps”.  Things he dreads but cannot deny…(hmmm)

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@scaryb  Yep, I don’t trust her either.  I think that’s why the Doctor’s so distressed.  He wants to redeem his friend, she’s showing signs that it’s possible — but is it really possible?  What is he to do?  Is it all just another sign of The End for this particular incarnation?  Indeed, does she know that his body is wearing a bit thin?

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@soundworld  I agree that if any Doctor’s been aware of his dark side, it’s been Twelve.  That was the core of his identity crisis in Series 8, and the Series 9 finale was all about him temporarily slipping into villain mode after his ordeal with Clara’s death, the confession dial, etc., and there was plenty of foreshadowing of how badly he’d take the former all season.  So instead of rehashing that concept, I see an possible inversion of that finale in the cards for Series 10: Instead of going bad for the sake of a good person, he does the right things for the sake of a bad one — compassion being his “cancer”, mixed with idealism — and pays dearly for that too.  Poor guy just can’t win!  😉

[MissRori @replies]

@scaryb Good point about the TARDIS also slipping away in the other Ice Warriors story Gatiss penned.  The TARDIS always takes…or leaves…its occupants where they need to be.  (hmmm)

True, Missy might have something to do with it — after all, it’s been established that she can sense the Doctor’s condition, so what’s to say she can’t influence his TARDIS too?  But perhaps the all-knowing TARDIS knows that the situation from the Vault cannot stand.  Missy can’t be locked up forever, and the Doctor will have to deal with her sooner or later.  Maybe ol’ Sexy wants it to be sooner…or knows that it must be…

As for the Doctor at the end, to me he looks scared and wondering at once.  She’s supposed to stay in the Vault, but she did help out today, didn’t ask for any payment or anything.  Perhaps he’s wondering, maybe she can be good — or at least behave?  Maybe he and she can truly be friends again, and he wouldn’t be quite so alone in eternity?  Maybe he has found a way to redeem the worst of the worst?  That would be a lot to swallow all at once, such possibilities.

Anyhoo, I liked this episode.  It could have easily tipped into broad comedy and there was some interesting satire on the Great White Explorer and Empire concept, but it mostly played things straight.  The production values were strong and the acting was very fine as always.  Although I think, of Gatiss’ 12th Doctor scripts, “Robot of Sherwood” is a bit more fun and enjoyable, this one probably works the best as a standard-issue Who story.  And that’s not a bad thing.  Loved the vintage Who shout-outs!

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