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10 June 2017 at 11:01 #58839
Missy will have a hard time convincing me that she is nice but you never know.
Davros did say compassion would be the death of this Doctor…(evil laugh)
I think the regeneration bit was mostly a trick for the trailers and such, but at the same time he’s wearing thin too. Twelve seems to have been feeling his age all season, and probably knows he doesn’t have much longer. He’s a few centuries old at this point after all, and he can’t look in a mirror and pretend he’s fit and hearty as he could with his last few incarnations. That and his grim duty to the Vault and inability to travel as much would explain his (increased) broodiness. A slow regeneration might be in the cards, depending on how the finale plays out.
10 June 2017 at 10:54 #58837@ichabod I think Barrowman is a cool guy in real life (it was great fun meeting him at Wizard World Chicago last year) but his style isn’t the best fit for Doctor Who — it works a bit better in a spinoff that isn’t trying to hit the same tone. Your description’s pretty apt, really. I am a bit of a musical theater buff myself, but I find the style he represents — which is sort of the default in the U.S. these days for musical actors — off-putting and unnatural, especially compared to their U.K. equivalents. I’d go into more detail here, but this isn’t really the appropriate thread to go on about acting styles. 😉
I appreciate my line of thinking being appreciated. I like the idea of a sad season finale for the Doctor that inverts that of Series 9 — instead of going bad to save someone good, he goes good to save someone bad. And both times it doesn’t work out too well for him. 😉
9 June 2017 at 17:57 #58802@nerys Don’t feel confused or bad about liking this episode. There’s a lot to like about it, even with its arguable dodgy bits (which most Who stories have anyway). 🙂 This one has really been growing on me, in a way that “Pyramid at the End of the World” hasn’t.
Bill’s pure image being based on a fiction she came up with is important. A friend of mine pointed out that the Monks could only manipulate truth, not fiction (albeit a fiction inspired by truth, aka the photos). I was reminded of the climax of the Virgin Missing Adventures novel Managra, back in the 1990s. That had the Fourth Doctor face off with a villain who could, effectively, replicate and then alter anything that already existed…but it had no imagination, so it could not create anything of its own. The Doctor had imagination, so he was able to figure out how to defeat it.
I agree that the Monks did pose a genuine, dreadful threat — they just seemed oddly easy to defeat after being near-invincible for two weeks. And it was never really clear why they wanted to rule humanity; they didn’t have some master plan in mind. Between that and the lack of personality, they weren’t the most compelling villains.
I think you’re right about Missy being depressed from isolation, etc. Being alone with thoughts like hers would be pretty awful. It will be very interesting to see how things work out in the finale in that regard. Last season we saw the Doctor go through a painful — albeit very different — stretch of isolation, and that did not exactly work out for him once he was free.
The acting is, frankly, staggering this season. Capaldi, Mackie, and company are bringing their A games every time.
9 June 2017 at 09:52 #58774@frobisher Exactly! And one can fall to an enemy…(perhaps the regeneration begins as a cliffhanger?)
Or fall into the blackest pit…
Also, which Doctor falls?
The Doctor is a title, after all, and anyone can be the Doctor so long as they don’t give up…
9 June 2017 at 02:09 #58767@thane15 wrote:
“the Doctor Falls” -I mean, how else can you read that except he really falls.
What if it turns out to be technically incomplete, though? “The Doctor Falls…
…No More” 😉
8 June 2017 at 13:06 #58727@thane15 Good point about the Doctor usually choosing to live up to his principles. Peter Capaldi has said that in the end, the Doctor choosing to be kind and good whenever the “final” choice looms is what defines the character.
Since “Heaven Sent”/”Hell Bent” was based around him choosing to give up his principles for a while and realizing he was wrong, I would think that he will choose the nobler path in this season finale when he ends up in the blackest pit. The arc words of “Extremis” — “Without hope, without witness, without reward” — turn up again in “The Doctor Falls”. But he’ll be brokenhearted/broken down by his quest still failing, and his choices exacting a higher than usual price — he’ll only have the knowledge that he did the right thing to comfort him in the ashes, and for a lot of people, that comfort isn’t enough, which is why most people make the wrong choices. Perhaps he’ll fall into depression, send his companions away if they’re still by his side, prepare for the final end, give up on it all. And then something will happen to change his mind, give him hope, and move on; perhaps he finds a golden chance to do right and realizes just how much doing it actually means. Less A Christmas Carol than It’s a Wonderful Life, but still capable of being moving.
8 June 2017 at 12:38 #58725@nick Yeah, the Doctor seeing the death before it happens seems to be in the cards to go by the Doctor Who Magazine preview. See, the ship ends up affected by time dilation in the black hole: two days pass at one end while 1000 years pass at the back. And who’s to say what happens in the middle? 😉 Which would explain a lot of what’s going on with multiple generations of Cybermen and two Masters running about!
On the other hand, having the Doctor become un-Doctor-y and failing in his quest to save someone — most likely Missy, who is with Bill, Nardole, and him to begin with because he’s decided that taking her with them will be the first step in redeeming her for good, by convincing her that she’s missed so much beauty in the universe, what they’d wanted to see together in their youth before it all went so wrong — would be a retread of “Heaven Sent”/”Hell Bent”, in which he gave up his principles to save Clara and ultimately didn’t get exactly what he wanted (her fully alive and safe without her memories — she’s undead, running about, and has her memories).
It could be Bill who dies, but having two companions die on this Doctor in a row on top of losing River would be piling on the angst, wouldn’t it? Also, this Doctor knows a change is in the cards for him. He’s known all along he’s facing the end, brooding about it at length.
What I think is more likely is that the Doctor fails not as a person — he does everything as right as he can, willing to give it all up in a truly selfless sacrifice — but in the sense of failing to redeem her as he’d hoped, and thus making his sacrifices, his goodness, seem to be all for naught. I don’t think the show would kill off the Master for good after all, but if she were to get away, or die and regenerate into someone who no longer cared about the Doctor’s friendship, etc., well, that would be awfully hard on him, especially if he did lose his companions (not necessarily to the grave) in the process.
So…that would leave a Doctor who has lost faith in the power of goodness, of virtue. He’s been his best self and for what? Maybe he questions whether Missy was right that he’s too idealistic. Whether virtue’s worth all the trouble in a universe that arcs not in the name of justice but cruelty, where the bad guys thrive and the good guys get stomped on. Whether he’s better off dead forever, instead of living again just to face the same sorrows.
And then in the Christmas special he is inspired to see that life is worth living, and virtue is worth pursuing. And he decides to put his sorrows behind him by shedding that broody old body that loved not wisely but too well, and start afresh.
8 June 2017 at 12:18 #58721@jimthefish I know there are fans out there who loved the Twelfth Doctor and Clara’s relationship, were heartbroken by how it worked out, and thus have been hoping ever since “Hell Bent” that it would get “proper” closure in some way. And since Moffat established in “The Time of the Doctor” that the Doctor gets a glimpse in his mind’s eye of the first person he saw/met when he regenerates, logically the Twelfth Doctor has to “see” Clara one last time, which would satisfy many of those fans because it would mean the mind wipe wore off or something and he has not lost the precious memories of her after all. The question is how that will be possible without raising the problem of them being the Hybrid and supposedly not being able to be together for the Greater Good and all that. (Even though the prophecy didn’t say anything about it inevitably being a force for evil.) And since Donna’s mind wipe was never undone, fans might cry foul if the Doctor’s is…even though it was everybody else’s fault that things got to that point for him in the first place. 😉
What to do, what to do? 😉
8 June 2017 at 12:09 #587198 June 2017 at 11:13 #58716@ichabod (raises glass) Me too! Yes, it’s okay if the finale is tragic and brutal. Twelve’s previous season finales were that way. But never without some hope to lead us into Christmas. It’ll just come in a surprising way this time, I’m guessing.
8 June 2017 at 11:11 #58715@ichabod Michelle Gomez suggested in an interview with io9.com that something like you’ve suggested will turn up in the finale! The central tragedy of this whole arc, of course, is that the Doctor trying to redeem her — to save her if he can — is the right thing to do. To save whomever he can if he can, instead of leaving them to the wolves…but he does have to do it without hope, witness, or reward to be truly virtuous. (sniff)
As for the stray filming information re-mentioned above, it wouldn’t seem to have anything to do with the season finale. As confirmed by Doctor Who Magazine previewing “World Enough and Time” (the first part — they’re saving talk about “The Doctor Falls” for a month, of course), the plot of that story involves a black hole, a space station, and time dilation* along with all those Cybermen and 2 Masters. Not sure how a wartime Earth setting fits in to it all, given how much is going on to start with. So…well, it would have to do with the Christmas special, but how? Wartime doesn’t sound like a soothing, redemptive setting for a Christmas adventure.
In the meantime, black hole = blackest pit! 😉
8 June 2017 at 10:58 #58711@ichabod wrote:
I’m inclined to agree — partly because of the context in which that end will occur: a big shift in the direction and tone of the show itself after Capaldi and Moffat and most of Moffat’s writing crew are gone; a shift, I expect, away from brilliance and complexity and boldness
This is awfully true. And I do think poor Twelve is headed for one last decision in extremis. But when I hear the term “tragedy” I think “meaningless” and “hopeless”, and it would not be in the spirit of the franchise, especially under Moffat, to have the Doctor’s virtue be all in vain against a cruel universe. Twelve has done so much good even if he doesn’t always realize it, even if he isn’t perfect, and his life will not end all for nothing. Remember, there are children watching, and a world in need of assurance that goodness is the right decision every time. Right now far too many people are giving into despair and cruelty because they don’t see the truth of goodness… (sniff)
The Eleventh Doctor had his Day, and so will the Twelfth Doctor in the end.
7 June 2017 at 20:57 #58691@wolfweed Perhaps it will be like that! Moffat did say the special would be an uplifting rejoinder to the season finale after all.. 😉
6 June 2017 at 20:23 #58644@lisa Yes, I think the reason he regards Missy as “the other last of the Time Lords” stems from their being the only two who exist in the wider universe anymore — since all the others, cruel and cowardly lot that they are, have chosen to hide at a point the end of time and space, where there apparently aren’t many places left to go (as “Hell Bent” suggests when Rassilon is exiled). There haven’t been any other Time Lords or Ladies roaming about as yet.
But also, yes, he was never happy on Gallifrey from what can be seen, and having come so far since he fled, he can’t relate to them anymore (assuming, say, Romana or other old acquaintances are no more). And what they did to him at the end of Series 9…they would have to seek his forgiveness and they won’t so much as stir from their world. So, a stalemate.
Perhaps the Master/Missy was the first real companion he had — not in the traveling sense (that of course was Susan) but in the sense of someone he was emotionally attached to and saw as a friend. S/he was a good person, once, before the Time Lords scrambled his/her brain. They were friends, who cared about each other. And now…well, he couldn’t let her die because she is a life. And if there’s a chance to do the right thing, no matter how awful it might work out for him, the Doctor takes it…maybe s/he can’t be redeemed, but is it right for him to never try?
6 June 2017 at 19:48 #58642@blenkinsopthebrave From what little Moffat’s said about the finale and Christmas show, the finale may well be tragic, but the Christmas show will be hopeful. You’re right that Twelve has lost so much. But maybe he has to lose everything for one great moment? He has done nothing to not deserve to know a last moment of hope. Perhaps Clara will return, or he gets his memory back, or he is welcomed back to Gallifrey or….
6 June 2017 at 19:44 #586416 June 2017 at 16:02 #58638Image galleries for “The Empress of Mars” are going up online. From the looks of them, it would seem the tattered “Extremis” coat is now just part of the Doctor’s wardrobe after resurfacing for “The Lie of the Land”.
“The Empress of Mars” promo pics
Now that we’re back to one-off episodes for a week or two I’m not paying attention to trailers, but I am really intrigued by the premise and wondering what the tone will be, given that this is a Mark Gatiss script. On the one hand, classic series villains like the Ice Warriors aren’t usually played lightly, but there is great potential for humor and even satire in the concept of Victorian explorers on Mars. If the cards are played right, this might be enjoyable in the way “The Girl Who Died” was (up to the tragic denouement, anyway). If nothing else, this one looks gorgeous.
6 June 2017 at 15:48 #58637@thane15 Having read a bit ahead on the next three episodes via Doctor Who Magazine reports, I don’t think they’re going in that direction with the Doctor, Puro. 😉 Bonkers theories are fun, but so far, they haven’t panned out. It was indeed Missy in the Vault; the events of “Pyramid at the End of the World” and “Lie of the Land” were “real”, not simulations; the much-teased regeneration for Twelve was an odd fakeout (possibly to misdirect away from actual spoilers for the back four episodes).
While the theories about what was real and wasn’t in the Monk Trilogy were cool, I was doubtful they would pan out simply because that would be a lot of time to spend on something that didn’t really matter if it wasn’t “real”, and because it was ultimately Bill’s big character development storyline, so it had to have some import on the show’s overall world. While it would be a huge plot twist to reveal the Doctor is actually the Master or the Valeyard, that would pretty much retroactively render a whole season of stories and character development as pointless, and carry the implication that someone thought that the actual Twelfth Doctor didn’t deserve another season, so I don’t think it will pan out that way.
A few years back Once Upon a Time spent over half a season with a previously established but killed off supporting character being rescued via time travel, complicating one of the show’s romantic relationships, only to reveal they were another thought-to-be-dead character in disguise. The fans weren’t happy about that, partially because it was very poorly foreshadowed (apparently the original character’s actress never realized she was supposed to be playing another character in disguise until she read the script where the reveal was made).
6 June 2017 at 12:25 #58632@tardigrade All that’s certain is that the execution that wasn’t was “A long time ago” — at least from the Doctor’s perspective.
6 June 2017 at 11:13 #58628@constance Yeah, the shooting and regeneration-that-wasn’t was just awkward conceptually. As the DoctorWhoTV.co.uk advance review put it, the whole thing seemed designed to provide a “shock trailer moment”.
But also, sometimes all we have are bad choices, but we still have to choose, as he told Clara once… 😉
6 June 2017 at 11:08 #58627@lisa I wasn’t bothered by the Appalling Hair Girl line — this Doctor does tend to be casually insensitive when he’s grumpy (as he was there) in a hurry and the like, and it fits in with his preference for nicknaming others. P.E., Sexy One, Lofty and the rest…Heck, even Clara wasn’t immune to comments about her appearance in Series 8!
@thane15 and everyone else theorizing about the Doctor’s “off” moments…some of them, like the test for Bill in this episode and its too-lighthearted aftermath, might just be dodgy writing or even trolling on the part of the showrunners. Some of them just don’t seem that off to me, based on previous experience in Series 8 and 9. But I’m also thinking of comments Moffat and others have made about this season’s structure and take on the Doctor. I’m afraid this will be a bit of a ramble…
They’ve noted that this season would be more about the alien side of his nature, what makes him different from us humans, and that the first four or so episodes (“The Pilot” through “Knock Knock”) are about Bill learning about his bright side — courage, wonder, kindness, wit, determination, intelligence, familial tenderness, righteous anger, moral code, compassion, his being “the police” as it were. Then the next four or so (“Oxygen” and the Monks) explore his darker aspects — pride, arrogance, recklessness, fear, dishonesty, clever scheming side, vulnerability. She now has a rounded picture of him, and he of her for that matter.
And with that the story enters its back third, as he prepares for the end that he’s been brooding about for a while now. Especially if it really has been almost 1,000 years for him since the day he spared Missy — and that might be what Nardole meant when he said he needed to be ready when that door opens, because what will become of the Doctor and Missy then? — he knows he’s wearing thin, that all things end. Oh, he’ll live again, but he won’t be quite the same.
But there is a thread running through his light and dark moments and it is his virtue in extremis. He might boast about himself in the heat of the moment but whenever all seems lost, he sees himself as the expendable one, the nobody, the one who was lost long ago and can’t be saved. If there’s a chance a life can be saved, he will try to save it. In his eyes, everyone is more precious than he is, even a rotter like Missy. Sure he gets frustrated with us pudding brains, he has his favorites, but he didn’t want Bill to feel guilty that he lost his sight to save her, he begged her not to sell out humanity for him…he wanted to know that she could understand that if the worst came to worst, he was the expendable one.
<i>In darkness we are revealed.</i>
Darkness is associated with death. He sees those things coming for him, he sees the voids and blackest pits. He knows he needs to be ready when that door opens. He’s endured blindness already. He was caged by the Monks and had to live a lie for six months to help Bill save humanity. And oh he is afraid. He’s just a bloke in a box telling stories but he knows that if he’s wounded just right he becomes the Hybrid, hungering for succor with an appetite to swallow all space and time. He’s scared that when his final test comes, he won’t pass it.
But I think he will…
(phew, shakes head) Well, that’s where I’m seeing things going anyway. But also, I feel a bit bad about all this speculation that he’s unstable and all, though he probably is suffering anxiety issues at the very least. As an autistic woman, I know how it is to be seen as crazy and irrational in my reactions to things just because they can be bigger, or different, than “normal” people’s. I identify pretty strongly with the Twelfth Doctor because he often reacts/acts in ways I would in similar situations, for good or ill. The main difference is that I bite my tongue when it comes to snarking! 😉
6 June 2017 at 02:32 #58602@nerys @ichabod I agree that there was only so far this episode could go and still be family-friendly. Many critics and viewers wanted the Doctor to have either truly sided with the Monks or have been brainwashed, from my understanding, and have the episode just deal with that.
If he’d been sincere he no longer could be seen as a hero at all, though — him just giving up on everything and becoming Big Brother wouldn’t ring true, not after all that’s come before. He could come back to right, but it would have to be dealt with over a loooong time, longer than this show can afford. (This is one reason Gallifrey was eventually saved — it was too big a sin to not be a cloud over future actions.)
So that left brainwashing or faking it, and Bill finding a way to break his brainwashing could have been compelling…but how could she do it? Perhaps Moffat and co. found that prospect too grim as well? Perhaps they just bit off more than they could chew.
I also think being family-friendly rules out the ideas that 12 is going crazy and/or evil as the regeneration looms. I don’t think his behavior has changed all that much; his manic, broody, rude, etc. moods have always been there. It’s more that extreme circumstances of late are affecting him. He’s still doing his best to be good.
5 June 2017 at 18:53 #58588@constance The idea of the Doctor being affected by Missy is interesting, though his brooding, fear, manic moods,etc. go at least as far back as “Listen”. And of course, he has been through a lot of heartache and psychological trauma…and here, six months of putting on a facade to the Monks and the public, claiming to be one thing while being another and screaming with rage on the inside, would be wearying…and he’s gone through blindness…poor guy is a bundle of neuroses. (Sniff). Just wearing thin to his bones…
5 June 2017 at 18:25 #58584@mirime This is a good point. Sometimes it’s hard to remember watching the show in the here and now, but the Doctor and his companions have dealt with tons of traumatic situations and invasions like this in varying points of Earth’s timeline since the early days. The main difference, I think, is that the aftermath is given a little more thought these days, following on from the pondering of these issues in many of the books, audios, etc. in the Wilderness Years. But the setting does have to remain recognizably our own, with the shorthand waving away of long-term consequences that implies.
I think that’s a big difference between the original and contemporary series — that grounding of its world in our present day reality for the purposes of accessibility. I know that since it launched, there have been a lot of complaints that all of the principal companions are present-day humans, that way too many stories are set on Earth or human outposts rather than exotic new worlds (and I think that is a drawback of the Capaldi era — especially with all the suggestions of more amazing adventures happening offscreen in Series 8-9), etc. Captain Jack Harkness and Nardole are the only companions of the revival who aren’t from present-day Earth IIRC, and they’re secondary ones. And there’s never been a companion from a past era when there were several of those in the show’s early years. But if the Doctor — a time-and-space-travelling humanoid — were traveling with a companion from the past (which was the original concept for Martha — she would have been from 1913 — and teased with Victorian!Clara), what would ground the show to the here and now for the families watching it? Trying more “exotic” companions and such is probably best left to stuff like the Big Finish audio plays, which seem aimed primarily at adults. 🙂
@kharis I agree there was a lot of unfulfilled potential in this stretch of stories. They really would have been better as standalones. And yes, the Monks could have been more creatively realized — making them beautiful would have been a big step in that direction; it is pretty rare to see a beautiful villainous race in Who.
5 June 2017 at 17:02 #58577@thane15 I must apologize for my hemming and hawing here Puro — somehow your comment about the Doctor doing his best with what he had (regarding his position with the munks) slipped my mind-net like a magic haddock. He had bad choices but he still had to choose, and he did the best he could. Many good souls have done the sorts of things he did in our world, their lives on the line every day, toeing the line in the light but rebelling in the dark. Couldn’t have been easy. Maybe that’s why he was a little too glad to be free… 😀
Somewhere Malcolm Tucker is smiling… 😉
5 June 2017 at 15:32 #58572@nick That’s a depressing thought. His story should come to an end on a note of hope, after all he’s been through… (and you forgot losing Clara and the memory lobotomy, and having no home world because he was evilly betrayed…). 🙁
5 June 2017 at 14:56 #58570@whisht — Glad I could be of service! 😉
Lovely as the climax/denouement is, I really am bothered by the Doctor and Bill not feeling remorse for all the lives lost in this story, given that it was her bargain with the Monks and his serving as a propaganda mouthpiece for them that resulted in so many innocents going to their doom. The Doctor didn’t feel he could sacrifice Bill for the greater good, and his insistence that there’s no such thing as an acceptable loss if someone can be saved has been a big part of his tenure…so where do all those poor folks fit in?
I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that the author of this script also did the Fisher King two-parter, where the Doctor let O’Donnell go to her doom to test the theory about the list and said it couldn’t be undone but bent over backwards to save Clara…
Can anyone ease my mind about all this? 🙁
5 June 2017 at 11:15 #58563@ichabod I think what Moffat and co. meant about Bill not being “special” was that she does not enter the story as having some great mystery surrounding her, as Amy Pond did with the crack in her bedroom, or Clara Oswald did with her multiple lives. Bill really is “just” a cafeteria worker with little means and little really fulfilling in life, little prospects.
But she is a kind, bright and (as it turns out) brave person and sad to say not everyone is in this world. And she’s just different enough from everyone around her to pique the Doctor’s interest. She is special to him from the beginning not because of circumstances or luck but because of her own qualities as a person. It is from the kindness that they share between each other that the world was saved in this story.
I suppose @whisht he was being a little proud upon realizing that his gift — indirectly — saved the world. But think about it — he expected his big Time Lord brain to be enough to stop the Monks, but it wasn’t. It wasn’t his special biology, or his wildly advanced intellect, or anything that makes him different from us pudding brains that won the day. What he did that helped pave the way for Bill’s triumph was repay her for her kindness to him. That’s something anyone could do — a kind, right deed.
The Doctor does sometimes lose perspective when it comes to small things. He focuses so much on the big picture, especially when it comes to a crisis. But in this crisis, he realized/was reminded of how important the small things are.
These days, a lot of popular culture is fixated on “great man” and “chosen one” narratives — only one person can save the day, and/or that person is special because the prophecy says so, or the magic power was gifted to him, or they have extraordinary lineage, etc. There don’t seem to be as many popular stories about how people make themselves special to others, even the world, by being good and kind. But right now on Doctor Who that’s the story being told. Bill is special to the Doctor because she is a wonderful person. And River loved the Doctor not because he came from a powerful race, or has an extraordinary time-space machine, but because even with all the mistakes he makes, he was and is noble and virtuous (or at least tries to be) even in the worst situations. 🙂
4 June 2017 at 19:03 #58520@miapatrick Yeah, the fake-out regeneration was especially odd because he was so stingy with energy when it came to his blindness! If he can control the energy that well…(shrug)
As I said — it would have been cooler if he had been brainwashed, whereupon shooting him and triggering a quasi-regeneration would reset his mind to “factory settings”, a parallel to “Smile”‘s events. It would also have downplayed the moral issue of his promoting the Monks’ imprisonments and executions to an extent if he really hadn’t been in control of his actions. I’ve already seen one fanfic writer run with the idea that he actually was brainwashed by the Monks, and it took a while for his subconscious to fight back; by then some of the propaganda damage had already been done. Also, the writer considered he might have thought the dissenters who were just imprisoned/forced to work were safer than those who’d be killed on the streets.
4 June 2017 at 18:31 #58514@miapatrick An interesting take on why Bill took it out on Nardole! And yeah, I do agree about the Doctor being pragmatic with regards to being the propaganda minister. Maybe the wrap-up should have gone into more detail on stuff like that — my understanding is that this one barely clocks in at 40 minutes without ads as it is; they had the time.
I don’t think Moffat has all that much say in how the show is advertised; creative content makers rarely do. IIRC, he was really excited about what he’d come up with for the “Heaven Sent” cliffhanger, how no one would see it coming…and then BBC promotional materials gave away that Gallifrey was waiting if he could survive his dark nights of the soul. He also was upset that one of the Series 10 trailers gave away a major twist…
4 June 2017 at 15:08 #58499Also…isn’t the Doctor culpable for many, if not all, of the people imprisoned and/or executed by the Monks, given that he was broadcasting propaganda on their behalf encouraging them to be turned in for dissension, albeit as part of his cover? And shouldn’t Bill have called him out on that? (I saw this brought up at Tumblr from a major fan of the show as it is right now.) Perhaps Missy was right after all about acceptable losses… 🙁
The poster pointed out that they could have revealed everyone was actually safe, thanks to the Doctor’s allies busting people out of the camps, etc., but they didn’t…
4 June 2017 at 13:06 #58488@nick I agree, this three-parter needed some more time in development (and we already know that “Pyramid” wasn’t able to get that due to Moffat’s mother’s illness/death). I see it as a delicious, rich soup course followed by a steak that needed some more time on the grill followed by a dessert that didn’t completely satisfy but gave a nice sugar rush. 😉
I still wonder if this weren’t originally intended as the season finale, especially with the teases of first the Doctor and later Bill’s deaths, before it became clear Capaldi wouldn’t stay on for another season and they realized they’d need to go bigger. This is the first mid-season 3-parter the show’s done, after all. Perhaps they should have been rethought as three standalone episodes with different villains in each one. “Pyramid” could have been a great standalone adventure, while “Lie of the Land” could have opened “cold” with a mystery to figure out along with Bill. Or, perhaps it could have been a 2-parter with the Missy thread of “Extremis” intertwined with the Doctor trying to figure out what might destroy the world in “Pyramid”, with the Doctor’s desperate choice to save Missy no matter the cost paralleling Bill’s desperate choice to save the Doctor no matter the cost, and then just moving straight to “The Lie of the Land”.
Which reminds me — the Doctor told Missy in “Extremis” that he needed her help, so why didn’t he ask what she knew about the Monks between that and “Pyramid”? Would have saved the poor idiot a lot of trouble!
4 June 2017 at 12:52 #58484Hoo boy, my feelings are mixed about this one…
On the one hand, I liked it more than “The Pyramid at the End of the World” but it was no “Extremis”. The acting was great — I understand why Mackie’s getting the lion’s share of praise, but Capaldi was amazing. This is Twelve’s equivalent to Four’s “The Invasion of Time”. I felt like things were actually happening in this story, while “Pyramid” did feel like the arc was in a holding pattern until the cliffhanger. And the uplifting note at the end of this dark arc was good to end on.
Am I the only one who thinks it’s awkward that after the Doctor ended up suffering for not being completely honest with Bill about his blindness in the previous episode, his dishonesty was vital to paving the path for her (ultimately) to save the day in this story? In other circumstances, it would just be fiendishly clever — the liar hoodwinking the liars.
@countscarlioni, The revelation that the Doctor was just testing her took things in waaaay too light a direction for what had just happened. Similarly, the wrap-up between Bill and the Doctor had some lovely dialogue without getting sappy, but after all they came through, shouldn’t there have been more talk about his not being honest with her about his blindness, how tough he and the other allies were on her psychologically with the test of character, and how she resorted to lethal force very quickly? (Though I’m not surprised he isn’t too bothered by that last one. He forgave Clara pretty easily for attempting murder-suicide, after all, for far less noble reasons.)
For that matter, they sure aren’t concerned about all the people imprisoned and executed during the six months of Monks! Keep in mind, tons of families will be wondering where loved ones are…with no memories of what happened. That’s horrifying to contemplate, and I’m surprised Moffat and co. didn’t catch that. (“In the Forest of the Night” had similar issues with how much damage the temporary forested world would have really wreaked on humanity.) Why not use a “year that never was” solution instead?
I am not offended by “power of love”-related endings myself, and I loved the Doctor’s kind, small act having a gigantic impact. It’s a wonderful rejoinder to the doom and gloom of every step one takes being closer to the grave and every mistake coming back to nip one in the butt that was stressed in the last episode. That said, the image of Bill’s mum reminded me way too much of old Jacksons/Michael Jackson videos and pin-up posters! 😀
@thane15, about the Doctor being a bit too gleeful returning to the mainland, well, they (and he) don’t call him a madman with a box for nothing! I thought it rather Fourth Doctor-ish myself, a sort of “I’m back!” moment. 😀
@tardigrade I appreciated the straightforwardness of this episode too. Leave the misdirection to the advertising! 😉 And yeah, there was no reason at all that the Monks shouldn’t have been keeping a really close eye on the Doctor — and his associates for that matter — just because he said he’d be good. Wouldn’t their propaganda mouthpiece suddenly escaping at least raise some alarm bells? And how exactly did the Doctor break everyone else’s brainwashing on the ship? Wouldn’t they have noticed that?
Yes, chalk me up as underwhelmed by the Monks in the end. I didn’t expect a huge reveal about them being another race or anything — they were powerful enough on their own, and I was excited to finally see an original threat that the Twelfth Doctor couldn’t defeat in just one (or two in the case of the Fisher King) episodes. That was the problem. After the previous two episodes and the early stretch of this — what with their preparing for every contingency, getting everybody exactly where they wanted them, and so forth — they suddenly seemed to make a lot of mistakes here. And like you, I never did get a clear idea of what enslaving humanity was meant to achieve for them. It didn’t make them more powerful; they had no plans to use them as an army, workforce, etc. And given that one reason Bill made the best of two bad choices in the cliffhanger of “Pyramid” was the suggestion they would just keep trying to enslave humanity and the Doctor surviving would make a big difference there, why did they just run away as soon as Bill broke their power?
Although it was neat to see the episode go in such a different direction than the one set up in the opening third — Bill fighting not only the Monks but a brainwashed Doctor (since he would never have joined of his own accord) — there was also potential for a great episode in that too. I would have loved it if the Doctor really were brainwashed, but into believing a false future. Basically, it would have convinced him that humanity would never survive and thrive, for better or worse, across the universe; he’d forget all his experiences that prove otherwise. Bill could have reminded him of the emojibots and Chasm Forge. And then Bill shooting him and causing a partial regeneration would have broken the Monks’ hold — restoring him to his factory settings as it were! 😉
Still, we can only make do with what we have, eh? 🙂 There was lots to like about this one.
3 June 2017 at 16:28 #58429(phew) My mind has been preoccupied by all these cliffhangers lately. I’m ready for a little closure! 😉
3 June 2017 at 16:24 #58428@serahni I wish I could binge-watch it too! I have been preoccupied with this three-parter and need to get back to one-shot stories! 😉
3 June 2017 at 14:16 #58424@thane15 That is an excellent point — “The Magician’s Apprentice”/”The Witch’s Familiar” does get a lot of material packed into its two parts by way of setting up all of the season’s major themes and plot devices and juggling a bunch of familiar characters about along the way, in some fresh combinations at that. I just see Missy and Clara as sort of the B-plot to the A-plot with Davros and the Doctor. 🙂
3 June 2017 at 13:34 #58421@serahni I’m sorry to hear you didn’t enjoy Series 9 all that much. It was the Capaldi era that brought me back to Who, and I haven’t caught up with the final run of Smith’s tenure and the “Impossible Girl” arc, but I never did become a big Clara Oswald fan — although I was moved by her actual relationship with the Doctor, her romance arc in Series 8 was wearying. I’ve seen most of that season and intend to catch up with the rest eventually — probably by year’s end as Capaldi’s departure looms — but it’s telling that the “missing” episodes for me are “Kill the Moon”, the 2-part finale, and “Last Christmas”. She and Danny did get way too much attention given that it wasn’t that romantic or exciting (and kind of derivative of Rose and Mickey) — and she really did have more chemistry with the Doctor! It didn’t help that in a lot of situations she seemed to be a bigger jerk than the Doctor (supposedly) was but he always seemed to get the short end of the straw.
Series 9 did a better job balancing Clara and the Doctor, though in hindsight I see the seams show with regards to it their relationship — Jenna Coleman staying on was an eleventh hour decision and until the finale arc starts Clara spends a lot of episodes mostly on the sidelines, with her conversations with the Doctor often in the “margins” of the actual stories. I do wonder what Series 9 would have been like if Clara was gone — would they have gone with a new companion like Bill right away, or maybe had him searching for a new one in the midst of adventures like the Davros 2-parter that are really about his relationships with adversaries?
Any-who, I’m glad you’re enjoying Series 10 and Bill and the Twelfth Doctor!
3 June 2017 at 13:17 #58420Here’s a cool theory I found at TVTropes: The Doctor did try to tell Bill he was blind twice but he ended up distracted both times — first when the pyramid “activated”, second when he had a moment of inspiration as to what the “real” threat to humanity was. That easily could have been the Monks stepping in to make sure the Doctor wouldn’t tell her until the worst possible moment! 😉
@mirime The co-writer of this episode did write “Kill the Moon”, which a lot of people hated for its silly premise (among other things) so that might have been an in-joke.
@missy It is odd that the munks technically don’t have a name as yet. The credits call them Monks, and as I understand it their proper name is the Prophets of Truth, but that’s “all there in the manual” material. Perhaps they do have a “real” name but have to hide it because it would tip off they’re a pre-established race? Maybe things will be cleared up in Part Three…
2 June 2017 at 11:40 #58385@missy Could be in both places. Also, with the Doctor agreeing to the attack, besides all the other plausible reasons provided, it might have been an issue of his own fear of what these Monks were capable of (signalling to Bill and Nardole that this is really serious stuff compared to what’s come before).
2 June 2017 at 11:37 #58383Also, @countscarlioni, it is a running gag in the Who reviews at AVClub.com that mysterious unidentified character X in any given arc could be either the Valeyard or the Rani. 😀
2 June 2017 at 11:33 #58382@missy I am currently reading a 12th Doctor novel, Diamond Dogs, and an early scene has him outwitting some security robots by effectively taking a very anxious Bill hostage. As he’s explaining why they’re not going to harm him or her to the human authorities, he says:
“Now, do you think that if she’s my friend, I’m really going to shoot her? No, of course not! Well…I say of course not. I have actually shot a friend once. But there were extenuating circumstances. And it was on Gallifrey. And he got better.”
(heh heh) That’s my boy! (Don’t worry, she gives him a good kick in the shins when the crisis is over.) 😉
2 June 2017 at 11:27 #58381@tardigrade You have a point. I think a better term for “spoiler-free preview”, or “advance review”, would be as — in the case of Who anyway — a “BBC Approved review”, ala one of the other threads here (and I will keep this in mind in the future). The reviewer can describe things in the episode that were covered in the promotional materials and synopsis, which is generally just the setup of the story, but anything that the Beeb wants absolutely under wraps is embargoed until after the episode actually airs. (For instance, the advance reviews of “Hell Bent” were able to discuss the first 20 or so minutes with some detail…and then things got vague, mostly discussing the quality of the production and actors.) A lot of fansites and TV websites often put up two reviews of Who episodes — the advance one that whets the whistle for those who do follow promo materials, and the formal “recap” that assumes the reader watched the episode and goes into full details about it.
@thane15 I understand about not wanting one’s opinion/expectations colored. I haven’t followed promotional stuff nearly as closely/thoroughly for Series 10 as I did for Series 9 and I’m glad I did. In the case of multi-part stories, though, my mind tends to race through and fuss over so many possibilities for how that cliffhanger will be resolved that I take some comfort in “teaser” material. Which is why this was more of a problem for me in Series 9. 😉 Even now, I have to take a day off from Tumblr every Saturday to avoid seeing screenshots, quotes, etc. posted by viewers on the other side of the pond in the hours before the U.S. premiere.
2 June 2017 at 02:35 #583741 June 2017 at 12:51 #58360@thane15 Yeah, I do think it’s odd Bill didn’t catch on sooner to the Doctor’s blindness. Besides his repeatedly asking others to describe what they see, she does realize he’s acting oddly in general and correctly guesses that he has something to tell her that he’s having a hard time getting out. It doesn’t seem like that much time has passed since “Oxygen”, so shouldn’t she be able to narrow things down?
The big one is this — in the downtime between episodes (i.e. the week or so that passed between “Extremis” and this), she’s still being tutored by him even if they aren’t traveling together. In order to function well enough to hide his condition from everyone save Nardole, I assume he has had to wear the sonic sunglasses constantly, indoors and out, when before he didn’t wear then very often (if at all?) in her presence or that of others. And he’s a university professor, constantly giving lectures/teaching classes. Surely the other students and faculty would be wondering why he’s suddenly wearing the shades all the time, even whispering among themselves, asking questions. Heck, rumors might start spreading.
1 June 2017 at 12:35 #58359Okay, Den of Geek and DoctorWhoTV.co.uk have spoiler-free reviews up for “The Lie of the Land” and I took a look…
Both reviews feel that, while it’s worth a look, this is not the smashing ending to the Monks Trilogy that the previous two episodes set up. On the one hand it has a strong, dark, even topical first half exploring what has become of humanity under the Monks’ rule (think 1984). It’s very much Pearl Mackie’s episode, while Capaldi finds some interesting new notes to hit. The problem both critics have is that the second half that resolves the whole business doesn’t live up to all that came before it.
31 May 2017 at 13:19 #58318About whether the munks might be Time Lords — perhaps they are out of regenerations! I read an article on that theory a little while ago. It pointed out though that the Time Lords are proud and haughty and tend not to travel in packs. 😉
31 May 2017 at 02:36 #58309Oh wow, that’s horrible and explains so much. Poor Moffat. It really is a shame they couldn’t have moved things to later in the season — and here I thought that this storyline was moved back because it was so flawed at the script stage. 🙁 Well, what’s done is done. Hopefully the wrap up salvages the arc, because “Extremis” was such a good start.
Talk about bad choices and having to choose… 🙁
30 May 2017 at 18:08 #5828330 May 2017 at 18:05 #58282@mirime Well, as I noted above, the Doctor is indispensable to Earth. If the Monks have been able to follow all of Earth’s history with their glow-y thread-y things, I’m sure they could spare a few to track down the Doctor. But yes, they should know about Missy by now, whether they were following the Doctor’s movements specifically or not. Omnipotent villains, they’re omnipotent until they’re not! 😉
As for his disheveled look in “The Lie of the Land”, well, he’s wearing the exact same outfit he wore in the Missy flashback scenes of “Extremis”, i.e. at a time when he was mourning River Song’s death and not taking care of himself. I do wonder why he’d pull that old thing out after so many decades…
30 May 2017 at 16:28 #58275 -
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