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25 June 2017 at 08:08 #59616
@ichabod I like The Thick of It. There’s something weirdly cuddly, as well as funny, about Malcolm’s cussing, isn’t there?
@thane15 That’s an interesting way of putting Twelve — “equally confused as his companion”!
25 June 2017 at 07:25 #59612@thane15 I just want the Doctor and Bill to have a happy ending. I read a comment elsewhere about how a viewer’s kids are heartbroken by Bill becoming a Cyberman. Apparently, she is a very popular character with kids. So the viewer wondered out loud if Bill is just going to bite the dust next week, since Moffat has nothing left to lose, even if it breaks the hearts of children around the world…(sniffle)
But come on, why is just about everyone assuming a tragic final death is the only option for her now? Even Clara got her wiggle room in the end. The Doctor loves Bill, he’ll do anything to make up for not being able to help her sooner. As I said, maybe love is all they need to break the spell. Or Heather…
What other solutions can we think of for how Bill will get her bittersweet ending and the Doctor’s hearts will be healed? 🙂
25 June 2017 at 07:18 #59611@ichabod (cuddles) I’m sorry to make you cry. I think many people are crying right now tonight…
25 June 2017 at 07:14 #59610@glasgowboy According to Steven Moffat, what’s going to happen is that the ending of “The Doctor Falls” is going to have a twist that will lead directly into the Christmas episode’s events. And Capaldi is coming back for Christmas, one more time.
What might happen? Who nose? But Moffat’s gone on record as saying that while “The Doctor Falls” will be a bloodbath full of angst and sorrow, the Christmas special will be a story of redemption, hope, and moving on.
25 June 2017 at 07:09 #59608@ichabod: So you dropped off after Eccleston too and came back with Capaldi? That’s my story!
Yes. I wound up binge-watching much of that first series and was eager to get into the Tennant Doctor. I liked his style. But I started thinking things were getting rather cornball and too needlessly angsty around the time of “The Girl in the Fireplace”‘s sad ending, and at that time there was a much bigger gap between U.K. and U.S. airings. Reading ahead online to what was going to happen in the remainder of Series 2 — which included stuff like “Love and Monsters” and “Fear Her”, of course — I lost interest and cut bait after “The Impossible Planet”.
Time passed and I kept a rough bead on what was going on with the show from summary sites and such, was glad to hear Gallifrey came out okay, but I just felt it wasn’t my cup of tea…it wasn’t the rich character acting and alien nature of the Doctor(s) I loved. Too soapy. And then I heard word that this new Twelfth Doctor was a grumpy jerk and his stories were really depressing…
Around July 2015, I kinda felt lonesome in my love of original series Who. I wanted to get back into the fandom in some way, but I knew I’d need to sample some newer episodes. Maybe I could come up with a cool “headcanon” on my own that way.
I asked around, even to a critic who hated Series 8, as to good episodes to start with for Eleven and Twelve. Nothing too arc-y or angsty? With regards to Twelve I was recommended “Robot of Sherwood”, “Listen”, and “Time Heist”.
I decided to sample Twelve first. After learning the tender story of the video known as From the Doctor to My Son Thomas, I watched that clip and immediately fell in love with the Twelfth Doctor. I got to those aforementioned episodes shortly afterward. Twelve blowing up the target in “Robot of Sherwood” was one of the best laughs I’ve ever had in my life. “Listen” was utterly beautiful. And I started watching more, and more…
25 June 2017 at 03:22 #59596@thane15 So, do you regard the Doctor and Bill’s reunion as a happy thing for them, talking about the good and bad things in his lives? He kept his promise to protect her within reason…and they could be together forever now, as I noted. She can still feel, and he can heal her pain by giving her all the wonders of the universe, and helping her family and friends understand what’s become of her, if/when they escape and defeat the evil.
But if he doesn’t want to do that, hopefully he’ll find a way to reverse this, or at least set her soul free. (@pedant, thanks for pointing out what might be Heather — I think you’re on to something)
It’s a shame how much was spoiled in advance about this episode, but it will be exciting to see how things play out in the finale.
The Doctor’s actions were foolhardy…but he acted out of love, all things considered, out of his noblest nature, out of his loneliness. To raise Missy up to his level…in the end, I’m not sure how else he could have tested her sincerity. He meant well…and I think Bill can forgive him that he couldn’t reach her, she understands. She did agree to the dangerous job when he was honest with her about whether she’d be absolutely safe or not. Their love will see them through. And maybe it will see Missy through as well…
And actions born out of love are never completely wicked, are they?
25 June 2017 at 01:59 #59587@thane15 Yes, and things will be okay for him and Bill. He loves her. She loves him, and they’re together again! Great thing! Greatest of all they can be together forever now!
24 June 2017 at 22:39 #59565@nick I’ll see it in a few hours. 🙂 I know what you’re trying to say, but the Doctor is a healer after all. He can find a way…
And @devilishrobby has a point; he might not be able to fix her without causing a really bad paradox. Maybe this was all meant to be. So make the best of it…people who are disabled or suffer constant pain can still live wonderful lives if they are treated with love. If she can feel, then all he needs to do is fill her life with happiness. He can help her acclimate to a new life, help her family and friends on Earth understand. She’s sad now, but the Doctor is here to help. Brave heart! 😉
24 June 2017 at 21:51 #59558@nick But she will have the Doctor with her! He can make her life so rich and wonderful, fill her heart with beauty to ease the pain, cocktails with Moses! Wonders forever and ever. She’ll be human as she ever was…alive…
24 June 2017 at 21:39 #59555@nick Well, as I said – if Bill is still there, then getting her out from under Cyber-control should be easy at least. He tells her to shake it off, think of love, his love, her mum’s love. And then they just take the lift.
Or, maybe he realizes he doesn’t need to “fix” her. He doesn’t judge by appearances. He will always love her no matter what, and he knows she loves him. Now he has a companion who won’t die, or betray him like Missy! Think of those wonderful new adventures they can have…A silver lining in the cloud. (Sniff)
24 June 2017 at 20:36 #59548@nick Hi — was following reactions on Twitter on my side of the pond. 😉
But the Doctor can’t stop Bill from going to the ship, can he? It’s a fixed point now, and he knows all too well he can’t change one. If he could do that with his TARDIS, why didn’t he do that to save Clara? Why not just get Bill to a proper hospital, clone her a new body? Or remind her of her mum and shake off that metal skin with love? Kiss her, hug her, tell her to love love love and watch the miracle! Come on Doctor! 🙂
24 June 2017 at 18:28 #59538Okay — this is kind of odd to post under spoilers, but looking at some Michelle Gomez interviews at io9 I was reminded of this promo video that was posted by the Beeb during the Series 10 shoot.
Why is she only painting half of a TARDIS? And where is this location? I suspect this is a clue to the shenanigans in either this or (more likely) next week’s episode. The giant colony ship has city and forest landscapes within it, after all. But why is her hair and her dress the same she had as at her execution? The rockwork doesn’t look like that of the tower where she was imprisoned. And even if she’s enjoying being evil again, I doubt she’ll have time to have a wash and get dressed up all purty.
Elsewhere in the woods, there is this video that promoted the Red Nose Day contest to have breakfast with the Doctors.
Breakfast with the Doctors contest promo
Why does the Doctor have a cut on his forehead?
Questions questions, and the clues there all along… 😉
24 June 2017 at 14:43 #59537@devilishrobby I agree that Bill’s potential fate — being killed, with the Doctor helpless to save her for reasons beyond his control — seems a lot like Clara’s grand finale. However, while his first priority will, or can be, finding a way to save her, once the Cybermen and Masters make their moves he’ll have to put her fate on the back burner; in “Heaven Sent” and “Hell Bent” he really didn’t have reason to care about what the Time Lords wanted — which was just information he may not have actually had — and so he turned that to his advantage by tricking them into extracting Clara. He will have to care about saving the universe from a bevy of baddies, and then figure out if anything’s to be done for poor CyberBill if she makes it out of the crisis. And remember, we have to work through Missy’s arc in all this too. It’s strange that what looks like a far more eventful, complex storyline is unfolding over just two episodes (not counting Christmas, which looks to be Doctor-only and probably involves a different crisis) of 45 minutes and 60 minutes, than the much simpler endgame of Series 9 did over three episodes, two of which were extra-length.
And that’s another thing — Bill being turned into a Cyberman in a sinister facility, and the Master turning out to have a hand in things, is pretty much “Dark Water”/”Death in Heaven” rehashed. I’m surprised Moffat wants to recycle so much of both of the previous Capaldi-era finales at once like this, even more so that apparently no one was worried about how this would look.
The only way to pull this off is to find a fresh direction to take Bill’s fate in. She can’t die in a heroic sacrifice ala Danny Pink. The Doctor can’t risk everything just to save her ala Clara Oswald. And, well, she can’t just go back to dishing up chips as a Cyberman. So the solutions would seem to be either:
1) The Doctor and/or Missy finds a way to reverse everything ala “Last of the Time Lords” or “The Big Bang”. I have a friend who believes Moffat will — somehow — get an Everybody Lives! story out of this plot, so Twelve can get one happy season finale. But she doesn’t know the spoilers we do. 😉
2) The Heather Creature will return and liberate her, finally tying off the loose ends of “The Pilot”. It’s not just that the Doctor suggested they might find her again — why was a spaceship at St. Luke’s in the first place? Were Saxon and/or the Cybermen scouting the place out?
In addition, I suspect that the Heather/Bill relationship will be set up as the bittersweetly happy parallel to the final tragedy of the Doctor/Missy relationship. Heather wants Bill to be a passenger to see the universe, and the Doctor wants that for Missy. While Bill will probably rise to her best nature and be rewarded with a happy reunion and ascension into another plane of existence — a death that would only be metaphorical — Missy will have to pay for succumbing to her basest instincts once Saxon enters the picture. She’ll manage to redeem herself before the very end, probably by saving the Doctor’s life (or at least ensuring he can regenerate), but it will have to be at the (apparent, this being the Master) cost of her own life. Of course, this means the Doctor will be bereft of both the women he taught, only able to take comfort in knowing that both of them learned his lessons well. Does that make sense?
24 June 2017 at 13:10 #59533It’s not too much of a downer, is it? A ray of hope teased?
24 June 2017 at 08:00 #59523I don’t see that working too well, @wellicanbake, though it would be unusual. It doesn’t allow us to really get to know 13, or give 12 closure. I think it should focus on Twelve getting his just reward — one he never expected or fought for — after all his sacrifices in the finale, especially as there probably won’t be a companion to be at his side. He worked so hard to be a good man…against the crushing tide of evil….even tried to even redeem Missy!
He’s the noblest Doctor of all, in a way. He lived not just to save the innocent but, in the end, redeem the wicked…a rather Christian attitude, I think.
I also think that the Masters and Cybermen underestimate the power of how much Bill and the Doctor love each other. Even Cyber-conversion can’t take that away from them, and they’ll fight together to the end. They beat the Monks, after all.
24 June 2017 at 05:11 #59521Also, Moffat and Capaldi have insisted time and again that Twelve is the focus of the Christmas special. It’s very clear that this finale two-parter is going to lead directly into the regeneration adventure, so it’s likely he’ll sustain the fatal wounds by the end of it. But then he’ll get his own wiggle room for a little while, and “instead of a story of the Doctor falling” (as Moffat put it), we’ll have a story about redemption and hope so he can have a glorious death.
24 June 2017 at 05:08 #59520@blenkinsopthebrave A bit fraught! From the spoilers I’ve seen, it’s a lot fraught!
But perhaps it’s all Moffat’s plan to pull a miracle of miracles in “The Doctor Falls” by bringing things to the blackest point. Just when it seems there can’t possibly be a happy ending for anyone but the baddies, a glorious ending takes place.
But I think @winston that whatever happens between now and the Christmas show, the Twelfth Doctor will have his good regeneration. He’s going to go out a fighter, proving himself virtuous in extremis. And as thane15 would remind me 😉 he has many things to be proud of even for all those he couldn’t save, all those failures and disappointments. Consider…
- He helped save Gallifrey!
- He saved Earth from the Cybermen by giving Danny Pink a chance to make a noble sacrifice
- He was strong enough to let Clara decide the fate of the moon creature.
- He taught Davros and the Daleks mercy.
- He saved Ashildr’s people and her life.
- He stopped the human-Zygon war.
- He survived the confession dial without giving in.
- He banished Rassilon from Gallifrey.
- He spared the universe destruction at his hand when he owed it nothing and they owed him everything.
- He let Clara have her memories and gave her wiggle room.
- He truly loved River Song and made sure she would live on in the Library.
- He spared Missy’s life and did everything in his power to bring her to the side of right. Just because the bad guys get in the way in this finale (and that really does seem to be the situation here) doesn’t mean he isn’t doing what is right.
- He saved Bill as many times as he could and gave her a richer life than she ever could have had on her own, even if it turns out to end in sorrow — again, only because the bad guys had to butt in and spoil his noble intentions for Missy. The point is he tried.
- He saved/helped save Earth from the Half-Face Man, the Sheriff of Nottingham, the Skovox Blitzer, the Fisher King, the Mire, the Leonians, the Sandmen (apparently), the Monks, the Eaters of Light…
As I noted, perhaps the Christmas special will reveal what would have happened if he hadn’t taken risks, hadn’t been brave, hadn’t acted virtuously as often as he could. I think Clara and Bill’s lives would have been much poorer for never knowing Twelve. Yes, it’s dangerous to travel with the Doctor, but to live in itself is dangerous, is it not?
23 June 2017 at 20:06 #59506@janetteb It will be interesting to see how the Missy-Doctor relationship plays out. Now there is some self-indulgence in the Doctor keeping her around instead of letting her fry, because he’s lost so many people in his life and she’s the only one whom he can fully relate to, as opposed to us pudding brains he still struggles to understand. A last link to the past when he has to keep running.
At the same time he clearly doesn’t fully trust her and is scared by the hope she can be redeemed, because he knows how badly that could go wrong even if she’s sincere. And think of all he gave up by not executing her. If he’d just been watching over a vault with a corpse in it, he would probably not have to worry too much about his usual travels in the TARDIS, and have his freedom. A living Missy, one he knows can easily escape if she wants to, is a whole other story. He has to attend to her, tell her bedtime stories, put up with her attitude. He isn’t free, he isn’t having adventures; the odd Harmony Shoal affair aside, he is marking decades with lectures and watching the world go by. He isn’t passing through, helping out, learning. He’s growing stagnant instead of truly growing as a person.
I think that’s behind his willingness to risk Missy being out of the Vault and in the TARDIS, and what’s to come in the finale. Because even if she’s made a little process in developing a capacity for goodness while stewing in that Vault, even if their relationship is a little warmer, he’s putting off just dealing with her out in the open, seeing who she really is and could be.
Nardole complains about him having adventures with Bill, but those experiences have reminded him that he’s capable of being more than just the jailer. Every day she stews in the Vault is another day he puts off coming to terms with her and finally seeing whether she’s worth re-befriending or not, whether she is capable of goodness. But once he does that…no matter how tragic the outcome may be for him, or others…he will be able to move on and let go if that’s what’s best for him, and her in a way.
He did the right thing by not letting her fry, never mind if she sees him as vain, arrogant, and sentimental for that. He’s done a right thing by keeping her from hurting others. But he can’t do the latter forever, in the end, or even for 1000 years.
23 June 2017 at 19:21 #59503Yes, I don’t think Susan will arrive sooner than Christmas, unless there’s a reeeeeeeeaaaallllly dark twist in this finale. There’s just too much going on as is — 2 Masters teaming up with 3 generations of Cybermen, the Doctor having to stop them from conquering the universe, Bill’s Cyber-conversion and what becomes of her from there (She becomes a superhero? Doctor clones her a duplicate of her old body? Power of love cures her? Doctor does a mercy kill? Doctor turns back the clock for her?), Nardole’s fate, probably resolution of the mystery of the Heather Creature, possibly some major revelations about the Master’s doings between “The End of Time” and Series 8, Missy’s final redemption or fall, the Doctor facing a decision in extremis one more time, and whatever leads into the Christmas episode. Add to that the fact that Part One is mostly just Doctor, Missy, and Nardole trying to rescue Bill, Bill waiting for him ala “The Girl Who Waited”, and establishing the Mondasian Cybermen backstory and the Saxon!Master’s presence, and most of the big action is clearly being saved for Part Two.
Radio Times has a more detailed summary and cast list of “The Doctor Falls” up now — the Doctor is specifically determined to save the few remaining humans on the ship, including the Samantha Spiro character, from being converted into Cybermen. (Looks like only four of those souls get to speak, which doesn’t bode well…)
23 June 2017 at 11:11 #59487Well, the synopsis says it is indeed trapped in the event horizon of the black hole. But I agree, it should have been ripped apart by that point. But who knows what the tech on that thing is….and with the Master(s) involved anything’s possible. Could it be the whole crisis the Doctor picks out was a deliberately set trap?
23 June 2017 at 10:00 #59479Yeah, he ain’t fibbing this time — it’s vital to the plot @countscarlioni. Bill gets stuck at the end where time moves faster, and the Doctor must reach her from the end where it moves slower. Every minute passing for him…is a third of a year for her.
23 June 2017 at 02:10 #59471So I was chatting with a sweet friend today and she had an interesting theory about “The Doctor Falls”, given what we know about what happens in “World Enough and Time”…
She thinks that, even with CyberBill and contrary to what Moff and co. have to say about what’s to come, it’s going to have an “Everybody lives!” ending. ???
She rationalizes that as Moffat’s (and Capaldi’s) last season finale, he’s going to want to go out on a happy note instead of a major bummer with “The Doctor Falls”. It’s just that he’s raising the stakes so, so, so high that we viewers won’t be able to figure out how the Doctor can save the day without major loss.
Well, it would make the transition to the Christmas show easier…what do you all think? 🙂
22 June 2017 at 12:53 #59467The Radio Times loved “World Enough and Time” — dark, dark, dark after a funny opening stretch. Something heartbreaking happens to separate Bill from the Doctor and company, and “We end [the episode] on an appalling final revelation asking ourselves some big questions about more than one key character.” Ooooooooooh!
I’m thinking poor old Bill will be out of those questions, having suffered enough, but who nose? There’s still the Doctor, Nardole, Missy, and the Master either way!
22 June 2017 at 12:26 #59466@wellicanbake That would be pretty great.
And should she beg the Doctor for her life again, he’ll say, “I could never kill in cold blood…take it away, Cyber-Bill! Remember, aim for both hearts like you did to me!”
ZAP! She wouldn’t know what hit her and audiences around the world cheer! River would surely approve! 😀
22 June 2017 at 02:16 #59463DoctorWhoTV.co.uk has brought out their advance review. It’s pretty positive, and they especially liked the Saxon Master buildup and reveal, and Simm’s performance…although it would have been better had the previews not spoiled his presence in the first place. It also is a showcase for Missy and poor Bill, who gets put through the wringer. The hospital scenes are favorably compared to “The Empty Child” and “Dark Water”. Capaldi, on the other hand, is great but has a smaller role than usual.
With regards to twists and character fates…well, there are big ones! But the critic is worried that they could be undone in “The Doctor Falls”, given what Moffat’s done in previous finales. If he follows through this time, then it could be one of the all-time finales!
BlogtorWho was also extremely positive, but barely had any details except there are shocks and scares aplenty.
21 June 2017 at 20:05 #59459(Sigh) I do think it’s Bill who gets the metaphorical chop this week. The Doctor has no hope of reaching her in time with her end of the ship moving years faster than his, and so all he’ll have is her Cyber-self. But it’ll surely be tender…embracing, crying, forgiving….reassuring…(sniff). But still, she won’t have died on his watch, and he did what he could. He kept his promise. They’ll have each other, and fight evil!
21 June 2017 at 19:08 #59453@nick I do think if Susan were to show up at this point (in either “World Enough and Time” or “The Doctor Falls”) she would have had to regenerate to keep in line with the Big Finish Audios in which she encountered Eight and was played by Carole Anne Ford.
Meanwhile, I’ve heard whispers that Pearl Mackie will be making a press announcement on Sunday morning, which will probably be to discuss what’s to become of Bill after whatever happens in “World Enough and Time”. I know she’s already doing that post-screening Q&A with Moffat shortly.
But if Bill does perish or run away with Heather Creature, how much of “The Doctor Falls” will have to be devoted to the Doctor cleaning up her loose ends on Earth? I mean, he’ll have to inform Moira and her friends about what’s become of her, get in touch with the St. Luke’s staff, etc. Come to think of it, what happens regarding his job there and the Vault?
Actually I did have a bonkers idea — Bill becomes a Cyberman but survives the adventure, and the Doctor goes on to install her in his old position at St. Luke’s! The amazing cyborg lecturer! Everyone would love her, she’d have “made it” in life, and they’d just explain that she’s disabled in some way and needs the enhancements. 😀
21 June 2017 at 18:50 #59451@bendubz11 That would be an interesting way to have Bill’s arc end with her death, having it be on her own terms like that. “A good death is the most any of us can ask for.” On the other hand, given that this Doctor’s not long for the universe anyway, as the Christmas show follows directly on from “The Doctor Falls”, it might seem kind of pointless for her to give up her life for his. But how would he be risking his life by saving her from becoming a Cyberman, assuming he makes it there before the process is completed? He’d just have to fight off a surgeon and nurse from the looks of things, before they slice and dice her.
21 June 2017 at 17:58 #59446@nick, I think Susan can be reintroduced in a way that the audience only familiar with the new series can appreciate. Perhaps at the end of this story, assuming he’s left bereft and alone for whatever reasons (deaths, goodbyes, etc.), he is sitting on the ground, head in his hands, tears in his eyes, whereupon a woman is seen just entering the frame, standing before him, reaching down with her back to the viewer, and says simply…
“Grandfather?”
Cut to To Be Continued…
See? Nothing to it! 😉
Meanwhile…with regards to Bill possibly getting the chop this week, it bothers me that it seems like an unworthy way for her to go out. The whole season has seen Bill get stronger and smarter as she goes along, to a position of strength and leadership in “The Lie of the Land” and “The Eaters of Light”. So having her end up a doomed damsel in distress (ala Peri Brown in “Mindwarp”) seems insulting, as if she’s being punished for wanting more from life and taking the risks of traveling with the Doctor. It could also be read as the Doctor being punished for trying to redeem Missy, but why should he suffer for doing good — especially if it turns out that things go awry because a trap’s been laid for him and her? Moreover, using Bill’s demise to punish the Doctor demeans her as a person; she becomes a prop (i.e. “women in refrigerators”).
Perhaps there are red herrings afloat (hallucinations, etc.) and she’ll figure out a way to escape or even reverse her Cyber-conversion on her own, buying time as the other people in the hospital are converted (there seem to be plenty, especially if this is a “genesis” story and the process will be slower). Perhaps the Cybermen, who at this point are just scared people trying to survive, become her friends to the Doctor’s surprise when he arrives. This would explain his wondering look in the publicity photos of him with the Cybermen in the ward, along with the shot of her leaning against a doorway in rags with no white gown or Cyber-tech on her chest as in the trailers — because if she’s set up for conversion because she’s fatally wounded when Missy’s playacting goes wrong (which seems most likely), wouldn’t she be attended to immediately? Otherwise, why would she be converted at all, given she’d object to being operated on and she is not Mondasian?
So, either she won’t be converted after all, or she will but it will be undone somehow and eventually (maybe before that she’ll be the Doctor’s bodyguard and muscle), or she’ll move on to a better plane of existence with Heather Creature. Just having her die is not going to cut it for her character arc.
21 June 2017 at 13:33 #59443@blenkinsopthebrave Excellent points about “Deep Breath”. I think Twelve’s self-doubt is one of the most heartrending aspects of his character. As Moffat put it in the promo short for “The Return of Doctor Mysterio”, a truly good man doesn’t think he’s a good man.
Before I knew about the Series 10 story arc I was thinking that Missy would have to be central to it in some way, because she was really the one thing being carried over from 8 and 9 in terms of this Doctor’s “myth arc”, his overarching story. Originally that arc looked to be trying to find Gallifrey, but that was wrapped up in Series 9. No, I think his myth arc is at least in part about coming to terms with his relationship with her, and what that will say about him. I am intrigued by how Moffat will wrap up his story as a whole once the season finale has been done and dusted.
21 June 2017 at 13:28 #59442@thane15 I understand about fans of Twelve/Capaldi being older and not hanging out on the social media websites. I’m barely on the right side of 40 at this point. But there are some folks I follow on Tumblr who would be right at home on this forum if they knew about it. I’ve found myself extending comfort and encouragement to younger women who are huge Twelve fans but feel awkward about it. (Back when I got into Who in my late teens, I found comfort from an email list that was mostly older women than I, so I understand how they feel.)
I have cosplayed a genderbent Twelve at several conventions now (I also have an original Osgood-as-12 cosplay). I find it a fun way to express my fandom and affection. At Chicago TARDIS last year, the crowd definitely skewed older than at a general interest sci-fi/fantasy convention; there were many people older than me. Part of it was that most of the guests were from the 1960s and ’70s eras of the show, the key exception being Michelle Gomez. And from there, there were some wonderful Twelve cosplayers.
Cosplay is the hobby of passionate and creative fans, and strange as it can seem to the uninitiated I find it fun. I love to gawp at the more obscure characters and shows represented by cosplayers at conventions, and compliment them, joke around with them, etc. The best ones are never the stuff one finds in a store. 🙂
Anyhoo I’m glad I found this positive place to share my thoughts with, even if I tend towards being a Gloomy Gus. 🙂
21 June 2017 at 13:05 #59440Moffat introduces “World Enough and Time
@nick Well, if Bill becomes a Cyberman, she won’t actually be dead. What I think will happen is that she is wounded early on thanks to Missy’s Doctor-charade going awry, and she’ll need Cyber-conversion to survive. The Doctor will feel awful that he couldn’t get to her end of the ship sooner, but Bill will understand and he’ll have another awesome cyborg companion! And at the end of the story the Doctor will find some way to restore Bill to humanity or otherwise set her free (i.e. with Heather Creature).
Perhaps his love will be strong enough to save her — she’ll feel it so much that she’ll shed all her cyber parts and grow back her fleshly body. Or he could work some magic with the sonic to turn back the hands of time. Or she’ll want to stay a cyber-person and have more adventures! What a wonderful idea for Series 11!
Moffat says in the above clip that the Doctor and Missy’s friendship will destroy many lives. But let us doom-sayers remember that it won’t be the Doctor’s fault. 🙂 He means well, and that’s all that matters in the end.
So if he has to make a bad choice between Bill and Missy, it can’t be said that he fails one of them. He would save both if he could, but he can’t, and somebody has to take the short straw. That’s life. He’ll mourn.
20 June 2017 at 19:53 #59384@wolfweed Well I thought of that too when I heard the news but it was just toooooo obvious! (mwahaha) 😀
20 June 2017 at 19:50 #59383@ichabod Thanks for the compliment on how bonkers we’re getting! 😉
As for retooling, well, I guess the overnight ratings in the U.K. have been hitting all-time lows these past few weeks. And the kid-oriented tie-in magazine Doctor Who Adventures just announced it would “pause” publication after this month’s issue. Doctor Who has a strong fanbase of people like us right now, but it just can’t keep pace with all the “hotter, sexier” sci-fi and fantasy shows/franchises in the mainstream consciousness. Look at how poorly represented Twelve is in the merchandising. I go to general-interest conventions and to look at the cosplayers and fanart, one would think Eleven was still the most recent Doctor. (It’s very different at Chicago TARDIS.)
I get the feeling that a lot of viewers who loved Ten and Eleven couldn’t accept Twelve, especially if they didn’t have much interest in the original series. He didn’t hit the ground running fully-formed; his character development was complex and slowly unfolded. He wasn’t ready with a sackful of catchphrases, he wasn’t effortlessly charming. And he was “old”. His relationship with Clara was deeply moving, but many people couldn’t see past the lines on his face. And given that his story arcs have been more clouds than sunshine, with the occasional cloudburst…it’s not “magical” anymore, to a certain breed of viewer. I learned that the hard way last year at WizardWorld Chicago; the “Doctor Who Ultimate Fan Panel” discussed Twelve very little in favor of Ten and Eleven and a little bit of Nine.
It’s truly heartbreaking, but I don’t see how Twelve will ever be as loved by the masses as his predecessors.
20 June 2017 at 19:37 #59381@nick Good question on that! And yeah, I think there is some very timey-wimey stuff going on.
What I have just found out from a Cultbox report — they got in touch with the BBC — is that the scene that did not appear in early screeners is the opening scene of the episode. It should appear in later screeners, interestingly enough. Curiouser and curiouser!
20 June 2017 at 18:53 #59371@ichabod @missy But if the Doctor stayed away from humans, he might hardly have any more heart than a Dalek. He comes from a cold, mean race, those rotten Time Lords. Getting to know humans and others made him the greatest of all heroes. And if he’s sick I don’t think he wants to be cured if it meant losing all the love in his hearts. He’d rather die a compassionate being.
20 June 2017 at 18:37 #59369@blenkinsopthebrave Ah, yes! Good point. What’s everyone think of Saxon’s new threads, by the by? Looking sharp!
20 June 2017 at 18:03 #59367@blenkinsopthebrave Well, the Moff and Gatiss aren’t fearing any competition from Universal’s attempt at a monster movie universe then are they? (That Mummy movie with Tom Cruise is meant to launch one.) 😉
20 June 2017 at 17:56 #5936520 June 2017 at 17:46 #59363@thane15, Peter Capaldi has this to say to the Radio Times in his latest interview, when asked “How would you describe your Doctor?”
The Doctor is deeply sad — I think he always has been. When you’re wise and you’ve lived a very long time, that’s how you’d be. Although you have to be careful with very human emotions and the Doctor because he’s an alien. It’s more straightforward to play the human elements, but then it might as well be a cop show.
So maybe the truth is in the middle? 😉
Anyhoo, I’m hoping that this finale won’t be as grim as it looks. This is a family show after all, and for all the drama I think/hope there will be an uplifting twist or two to lead us into the Christmas episode.
And even if he loses Bill, she of all people probably won’t hold her fate against him. It won’t be his fault, and she loves being with him. Maybe she’ll like being a Cyberman if worst comes to worst! A surprise companion for Christmas! She could live forever with him too, and he need never fear loneliness again. Just the occasional tune-up. 😀
Edit: I know many sweet people on Tumblr myself. But I think they’re jumping to conclusions. All those Cybermen in the promo pics look taller than Bill in relation to the Doctor. 😉
20 June 2017 at 15:45 #59357Advance preview copies of the episode are already going out! Here’s one article from mymbuzz.com with 20 hints.
“World Enough and Time” Preview
Yep, Cyber-Bill looks like a strong possibility. Fans are already starting the mourning at Tumblr and Reddit, some saying this will be the most gruesome fate in companion history (and if that’s the case, I think it will be hugely controversial because it just had to happen to the black LGBT woman didn’t it?). But why telegraph it so much in the promos then?
According to the reviewer this episode is more about Bill and Missy than the Doctor, and it’s relatively small-scale on the way to setting up epic-ness in “The Doctor Falls”. Also, there are two big cliffhanger-worthy moments leading into the actual cliffhanger. AND the preview copies have deleted one scene so no one will be able to spoil it, but it isn’t that cliffhanger! The reviewer has no clue from the rest of the episode what that mystery scene is.
20 June 2017 at 15:16 #59354@frobisher: I’ve wondered about the possibility of Cyber-Bill too with those photos, and having Heather Creature rescue her — perhaps with the Doctor’s help — for a bittersweet ending could work. On the other hand, wouldn’t that be a retread of Clara and Me going off together in “Hell Bent”? I think Moffat’s painting himself into a corner if he’s going to Cyber-convert Bill — it’s either going to be too much like “Death in Heaven” or too much like “Hell Bent”.
@jimthefish, I agree that the Doctor’s odd moments this season probably aren’t part of a larger plan, but just the lapses in writing that occasionally pop up — and, in the case of the false regeneration, perhaps a need to come up with a red herring for promotional materials.
As for how uplifting the end of this era can be…
I strongly suspect Nardole won’t survive this finale, so if the Twelfth Doctor does lose Bill to Cyber-conversion (even if she is rescued by Heather), all three of his companions will have effectively died on his watch, despite loopholes and wiggle room. And that’s on top of his losing River Song. It would be the worst track record for a Doctor in the televised canon, and between that and the tragic end of his and Missy’s relationship, it would be a terribly depressing way to head into the Christmas show, especially with a near six month wait in between it and “The Doctor Falls”. And as I noted, losing Bill would have to plunge him into a depression ala losing Clara to ensure that her death isn’t shortchanged in terms of the narrative, and there’s no time for that with only three episodes left.
It’s possible that if Bill dies/”dies” she will absolve him of any guilt and sorrow before she goes, as it won’t be his fault his plan went so wrong but that of the baddies, so the Doctor will have less reason to mourn. Perhaps she’ll even tell him it’s better this way; what did she have to go back to on Earth? But still…
I’d rather Bill survive the finale even if she leaves for good with Heather (because yeah, they have to tie that off), so the Doctor won’t be completely bereft and feeling like this particular life was a failure. Maybe the Doctor will find a way to reverse the Cyber-conversion, even, as I suggested above. A wave of the sonic, a little regeneration energy, maybe just the power of love.
He needs to have his day in the sun at last, since his previous finales didn’t allow that. But I don’t know how the Christmas show can make things up to him if this finale is as tragic as Moffat says it will be. How do you think that will happen, @jimthefish?
Will Clara return to him, repentant for abandoning her soulmate, and in affirming their love the Hybrid prophecy will be happily fulfilled? Will his people forgive him for his actions in “Hell Bent”, which weren’t his fault but theirs? Will every grave in the universe give birth to those who loved him so he won’t be alone as he dies? Will he and Susan have a happy reunion?
20 June 2017 at 12:58 #59346Thanks for the latest clips @wolfweed!
And I just had a bonkers-beyond-bonkers idea. What if…what if the Mondasian Cybermen here aren’t straight-up evil? The story does go into their origins as what they originally were, people desperate to survive by any means necessary? As opposed to the upgrading, deleting warlords of the later generations, whom they meet up with here…
It would fit in so well with this season’s run of antagonists, especially robots/creatures, who aren’t necessarily blackhearted. (Even the Eater of Light and its kin were just hungry.) It would be a fascinating parallel with the Missy and Harold Saxon Masters teaming up and yet perhaps coming to blows…past and present, the changes that come with Time. And what an awful, futile war might result in — and hasn’t that been a theme of this season too, especially the last two episodes? And it would explain the promo shot of the Mondasian Cyberman emerging from the shattered wooden doorway, followed by the Doctor….
20 June 2017 at 12:13 #59341With regard to the released pictures, Fansided pointed out that Bill now has a skull iron-on patch on her “Pilot” jacket (next to the Wow! one). The writer suspects that this is a sign Bill is going to die-for-real in “World Enough and Time”, but I thought of the comments made here about the Doctor’s skull on the chalkboard in “Oxygen”, and how skulls = Master in a way. I think there might be some red herrings in the water. 😉
I also thought of another reason Bill probably will survive. While a character like Danny Pink (or Nardole…) dying for good is the sort of thing the Doctor can cope with in the course of a 2-part finale, him losing his beloved student/surrogate granddaughter Bill would be a lot more devastating, especially after Clara and River (and before that Amy and Rory).
Now, if “World Enough and Time” were a one-off episode with a tidy ending, followed by an episode or two like “The Snowmen” and “Heaven Sent”/”Hell Bent” in which he was clearly struggling with the loss of Bill and finding a way to move on, then her death and its effect on the Doctor would receive their proper dramatic weight. But “World Enough and Time” is the first half of a multi-Master/several generations of Cybermen finale that will also effectively bring the Doctor and Missy’s relationship to an end. (Michelle Gomez has straight-up noted in the Radio Times out today that Missy is not in the Christmas show.) Losing that relationship will be painful enough for the Doctor and he’ll have to angst over that in “The Doctor Falls” on top of helping to save the universe, and Moffat’s comment that this storyline will be “a bloodbath” suggest a full-out war with mass casualties on both sides.
So if Bill were to die as well in the course of this adventure, when would he have a chance to process that death properly and ensure that she wasn’t just regarded by him and the narrative as an “expendable”, lesser companion to him than Clara was? The Twelfth Doctor only has the as-yet-untitled Christmas episode after “The Doctor Falls”, and if it’s going to be as inspiring and uplifting as Moffat has promised — which is tricky just because it ends with the hero “dying”, and Capaldi says he’s going to go down fighting — it can’t focus on the Doctor brooding over another dead companion.
Radio Times suggested Bill’s death could play into Thirteen’s personality/backstory, make him reluctant to take on more companions after all the sorrow Twelve went through, but this would work against the “clean slate” concept Chibnall seems to be going with for Series 11. I think the BBC is getting desperate to course-correct what they see as a major drop in the franchise’s mainstream popularity and acclaim in the Capaldi era and want to go with a complete, “modern”, “youthful” rebranding and overhaul of it with Thirteen, which would mean not invoking much of the recent continuity and effectively treating it as a whole new show again.
20 June 2017 at 09:58 #59340(Hugs). @missy I understand completely how you feel. I love this Doctor most of all now but it breaks my heart that he will never have his own special Day of glory and joy, not from the looks of this finale…and how can there be glory and joy this Christmas if he “dies”?
19 June 2017 at 20:16 #59315@ichabod again — I think “World Enough and Time” won’t have, as it were, time to give Bill a proper sendoff — especially because she’d be abandoning the Doctor in his and the universe’s time of need, and Bill is not that kind of person, especially at this point. Assuming she won’t be in the Christmas show (and if she’s not in Series 11 she won’t be there for Xmas, because again, why would she leave the Doctor in his time of need?), “The Doctor Falls” will be her sendoff, what with the extra time for the denouement.
19 June 2017 at 20:04 #59313Or — it would show how there’s always that *risk*, when enemies join forces, of betrayal, so choosing to help instead of attacking each other is also an act of courage, hope, and trust.
This is very true, but right now in this troubled world, perhaps a more idealistic theme is needed than this (i.e. she betrays but atones)? Courage and trust are in very short supply in our world these days. It’s why the needy aren’t helped, the battle lines drawn…
This is one reason why I feel the Doctor shouldn’t be left completely bereft at the end of “The Doctor Falls”. If he once again shows his virtue in extremis leads only for it to lead to loss and sorrow for him, because the universe is so cold and unfeeling…why would anyone be inspired to join his struggle? :/
19 June 2017 at 19:27 #59310Actually, maybe that will be the plot of the Christmas show — the Doctor finding a way to restore Bill to humanity. In the end Twelve gives up his lifeforce to her, and as she returns to normal, he becomes Thirteen. (awwww)
Or he goes back to Gallifrey and challenges the Time Lords to restore her with all their powers. Instead of just blindly defying the fates, he appeals to their better natures and makes them realize that all creatures great and small are important, and they heal Bill. (awwww)
(sigh) I know I’ve been crazy with ideas today, but that’s the curse of an autistic Whovian with too much time on her hands when cliffhangers are in the air! 😉 😀
19 June 2017 at 19:16 #59309@wellicanbake Great idea that! And then the Doctor must find a way to restore Bill to normal…what might that be? A buzz with the sonic, perhaps? The power of love, as I suggested? Any other ideas ? 🙂
19 June 2017 at 17:53 #59304@wellicanbake Well, it certainly would be an interesting way to see her off of the show, given that it’s looking unlikely she’ll be in Series 11 (at this point). If the Cyber-Brigadier could fly off to new adventures, and “reformed” Cybermen dwell on Mayor Me’s trap street, Bill Potts might have a future as a Cyberman, perhaps traveling the universe in tandem with the Heather Creature. It would still be a heartbreaking experience for the Doctor, of course — while he would save her life, he would certainly feel he failed her in some way (though she might not think the same way…she does love sci-fi) and have to take care of cleaning up her loose ends on Earth. I think someone suggested (as a joke) on Reddit that she could become Handles 2.0!
Again though, giving Bill a fate like Cyber-conversion or death-for-realsies would be unfair to her (and her fans) after all her revival-era predecessors, and most of the original series companions, were separated from the Doctor in ways that may have been painful but still allowed them to have lives to live out afterwards. Add in the fact that she’s a minority character in more ways than one in a lineup of mostly white, heterosexual characters, and her being the one who gets the short end of the straw fate-wise would hit a bum note. And this Doctor’s had enough loss as it is; let him lose Missy, let him lose Nardole, but spare him his pupil at least, and let her make up her own mind as to what to do next.
Maybe she could just get partially converted, and effectively become a superheroine who can have adventures on her own? Or even just return to an ordinary life on Earth, just with a wild secret to hide?
(Deposits $0.02)
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