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14 July 2017 at 20:38 #60641
Feel free to be cynical on this. It works both ways in terms of publicity. I don’t think that’s a bad ting either 🙂
14 July 2017 at 20:08 #60635Is this an announcement (eg a 5 minute promo like the video posted today) or a special 15 to 30 minute programme ?
I don’t remember a special promo video for Peter’s introduction (and that programme was certainly not as well done as the Matt one was), which suggests there has been some planning. I havent seen any particular change on the rumour front identifying the next Doctor for the last few months. No new names have appeared either that I’m aware of. What’s changed to make the BBC move forward in the last couple of weeks ?
14 July 2017 at 19:03 #60620Well that’s a surprise. Since they dont know exactly when the mens final programme will finish, I guess I’ll have to keep tuning in.
@wolfweed @all
I cant think of any actor with a link to map making or the Ordnance Survey off the top of my head. Can you ? I have a former colleague whose first name is Trigvie if that helps !
13 July 2017 at 17:19 #60598@bluesqueakpip @jimthefish @craig @janetteb @blenkinsopthebrave
Bluesqueakpip, as you say, it does seem likely that the regen is planned to be a complete surprise (with perhaps an unplanned short notice special if it is leaked on a large scale as seemed to happen with Capaldi). But then, if the BBC are planning to make the name public, with a planned date just before Christmas, could/would we be able to tell this now ?
On the question of using the next Doctor on screen, I don’t think it would necessarily be that difficult to do. We’ve seen two different approaches – with the Tom Baker regeneration and Ki’ampo (? spelling) regeneration in Planet of the Spiders. I doubt Moff would want to do either again, but he could use the idea with his own twist.
How about having the “Watcher”/next Doctor assume a familiar face (Bill or Clara for example) conjured from Capaldi’s imagination for the duration of the episode before disappearing/merging at the moment of Capaldi’s regeneration into the next Doctor ? It’s not like Moff doesnt recycle some of his own ideas. [it would also keep the door open on Phoebe Waller-Bridge casting – her agents wouldnt strictly have lied].
12 July 2017 at 21:30 #60574I love this idea. I hope Moff had it originally and that you were both channeling him tonight.
12 July 2017 at 19:44 #60567🙂 That is a fantastic concept that I’d love to see. Maybe D14 showing both of them though, given that they both seem to be reluctant.
12 July 2017 at 19:14 #60565I wouldn’t particularly mind if they did something along those lines (except another 8 month wait would be quite galling). I don’t think they will do that though. Chibnall wouldn’t need to be involved much at all.
If Chibnall has co-written the Christmas special then I would sought of expect the next Doctor to feature in a significant proportion of the episode (a 3 Doctor story), which would be an interesting thing to do (in fact I suggest it ought to be done at least once). However, I saw the Moff interview where he said that he and Chris had yet to meet face to face. You can do alot by email/telephone, but that suggests more of Moff keeping Chris updated and Chris telling Moff how he’d like to portray the last few minutes of the story.
Right now, the unusual elements of the regen seem to be a) uncertainty over when/why it started, b) mirroring D1 and c) it seems to be about both Doc’s needing to be persuaded to go [and perhaps a link to the 50th special to explain how D13 got involved in saving Gallifrey]. Resolving all that and fitting in whatever action scene’s Moff was talking about in the last after-show episodes seems challenge enough for now !
Waiting is the only real problem !
12 July 2017 at 17:34 #60562If they werent going to show the next Doctor close to the end of the Christmas special then Moff wouldnt have talked about Chibnall writing the last few scenes would he ? I’d rather hope they keep it secret until the Christmas special. It could be done of nothing other than a face was the closing shot and perhaps a few words. Either way if there isnt a definitive leak then I agree all it would need would be a small green screen studio (less for just a face) a couple of days earlier.
How young is young though ? I suppose the average has been between 35 and 45, so young would be someone around 30 ? In any case, I’d prefer Chibnall to cast an actor who can do something interesting and unusual with the character regardless of age, gender or skin colour, although I also think its well past the point where gender or skin colour should be a talking point at all. Casting a safe choice (which Kris M would appear to be) would be a mistake.
10 July 2017 at 01:59 #60503@serahni @jimthefish @blenkinsopthebrave
I thought Rose was handled reasonably well with Eccleston, but it was a mistake in S2 to make the Rose/Doctor love-in. What made it worse was RTD compounded it with Martha (which killed off that character on two different fronts – another infatuation and as substitute Rose). I didnt like the Rose infatuation, but I guess I could have got over that (maybe), but it was – as jimthefish wrote – the smugness was much worse.
RTD obviously loved Rose the character, in the same way that Moff loves his creation Clara, both in a creative sense, but also in the way that fans love certain characters more than others. I think there is a tendency to want to continue to tell the character’s story after it has ended, especially if they’re portrayed by very talented actors.
With Rose, much as it pains me to say this, I don’t think we can moan about it too much. If series 2 hadn’t been the success it was, building on Series 1, bringing and cementing a new and different audience to Who, it seems likely that the relaunch experiment might have failed.
I hope/expect to see Bill next series. I think CC would be missing out on a lot if he didn’t. However, I guess there is the pull of a new Doctor/new companion arc. I wonder if he has considered making a few episodes with a companion of episode type format. I think that would be an interesting dynamic to try out.
7 July 2017 at 13:14 #60452I’m sorry, for what was obviously poorly wording, but you have read much more into that phrase than I ever intended. I agree with you, regarding looking at morality outside any religion context. I’m not so sure that faith in some reward in an afterlife necessarily makes much difference.
I certainly didn’t mean to infer or imply this at all
But to claim that someone with a religious belief that they will be judged and rewarded/punished based on their actions cannot take actions based on moral grounds is, I think, taking things much too far
Sorry for any misunderstanding.
Nick
6 July 2017 at 23:24 #60444It’s difficult to talk about the fundamental moral foundation of our society, especially today as we are post-religous to a large extent. I think I would say this though. Whenever one does a good act, at a fundamental level you do so, in the knowledge that you may well get know reward and no recognition. In fact if you act on the basis of any expectation for reward or recognition (in this life anyway) you can’t claim any moral basis for your action, whatever it is. I agree with you, that this is a fundamental element of the Doctor’s character.
However, I suggest that there is reward and recognition attached to being good – the reward and recognition that you give yourself. It makes you feel good about yourself, your place in the world. In fact, for the truly evil, the exact opposite will be the case. You reward yourself with pleasure from the act of ill will. Being Human, we recognise that we both impulses sit within our individual morality.
I’m suggesting that the Doctor has lost this element of his moral code, even whilst he restates it at that moment. This is the difference between the normal actions of the Doctor in such situations and this one. He no longer feels and rewards himself from the knowledge that his actions are helping others. I think this sits behind his reason for the current regeneration crisis being different from that pf D10 (“I don’t want to go”) and explains @bluesqueakpip ‘s description of this predicament.
I would also contrast this with Missy’s “end”. She has gained a measure of personal redemption because she has recognised an element of the Doctor’s “no recognition, no reward” morality within herself and proposed to act upon that new found element of her personality.
6 July 2017 at 20:51 #60440I don’t know what people who overcome their fear and place themselves into mortal danger in order to save someone else think about the act and themselves, but I think to do it without being able to think something positive about themselves is unlikely.
We know regeneration is a petite Death, in that the person who comes out on the other side, whilst still the Doctor (or Master) is no longer the same person. Wanting to avoid that change is understandable, especially for D12 – and D1 – I think for the reasons @bluesqueakpip has described.
However, this phrase suggests something deeper is troubling the Doctor. Not to be able to see any reward from an act of self-sacrifice for others well being, seems to suggest the Doctor also has a death wish.
6 July 2017 at 19:22 #60438@blenkinsopthebrave @janetteb @missrori
Blenkinsop I felt the same thing when I watched the scene. However, its rather clumsy writing if that is all Moff meant. I would expect Bill to say what she meant. On that basis, it just seems a bit strange. Bill hasnt been quiet about pointing out her sexuality, so using a form of words based on the idea she’s have an uncomfortable time expressing her non-romantic feeling for the Doctor, just doesn’t seem in character to me. We havent seen who her father is though, so perhaps it works better than I think.
That said, I didn’t think it was meant to be a secret hint that of who the next Doctor is likely to be. It could be taken (as in the Master/Missy inter-change) as a way of making a joke on a small minority of the audience, who wont accept a female/non-white Doctor until we get one. However, I don’t even think Moff was doing that in any case.
6 July 2017 at 14:23 #60433<span class=”useratname”>@pitircapaldi</span>
Hi. A number of us has discussed that (either above or on the spoiler thread). On balance we decided it wasnt, but we certainly agree that something was going on here.
6 July 2017 at 14:19 #60432@bluesqueakpip @thane15 (puro) @mudlark @ichabod @blenkinsopthebrave @jimthefish @all
Why was this scene included ? Or rather, while watching it, it seemed like a very oblique way of Bill saying she cared/loved the Doctor, but the more I think about, the more it seems quite a peculiar way to write that sentiment. Is there something more subtle going on ?
BILL: They’ll attack on both sides. I’ll take the back, yeah?
DOCTOR: Yeah. This is it, I’m afraid. So, if there’s anything we ought to be saying?
BILL: I can’t think of anything. Can you?
DOCTOR: (thinks) No.
BILL: But, hey er, you know how I’m usually all about women and, and kind of people my own age.
DOCTOR: Yeah?
BILL: Glad you knew that.
(She leaves.)
DOCTOR: Without hope. Without witness. Without reward.When the Doctor says without reward, is he strictly right ? Whenever one does a “good deed”, up to including self sacrifice, then surely you shouldn’t need or most often don’t expect to receive any reward, except the one that you give yourself (rescue services and certain battlefield actions come to mind). The awards and accolades you might get afterwards certainly aren’t the primary motivation.
Is the Doctor therefore saying that he is going to this act of self sacrifice without being able to give himself even the reward that comes from the knowledge that he is saving the level 507 survivors, bitter sweet though that must be ?
5 July 2017 at 16:16 #60400If they’ve agreed to keep it secret until a specific date, wouldnt the agent have to deny it anyway ? Given what newsnight did with the guy in Lucifer earlier this year, I guess they’re trolling based on internal BBC gossip.
5 July 2017 at 14:57 #60396I read that too. Her odds shortened for me the moment that @janetteb mentioned Broadchurch as Chibnall does seem to like using actor’s he’s worked with before. Given the quite long gap until S11 filming starts, I guess that could help given her immediate commitments.
5 July 2017 at 13:06 #60394If I recall my BG Who, I think either the Rani or the Master had a remote control device for their Tardis, so if Missy regenerates, its possible that she can escape in any case.
If the Simm Master regenerates into Missy (or another version, that later becomes Missy or is healed in his Tardis) then the Tardis the Master left Gallifrey in, must be out there somewhere. I have no idea where though.
5 July 2017 at 09:09 #60387One other reason why your observation re Gatiss rings so true for me, is that he reused the Mike Yates/Sergeant Benton “RHIP” joke (rank has its privileges) from Day of the Daleks in Empress of Mars.
5 July 2017 at 09:04 #603865 July 2017 at 09:03 #60384Her name has cropped up in the bookies favourites list for quite a while. Apart from Broadchurch series 2 (where I vaguely remember her) I have caught Fleabag, I found that to be funny in a awkward slightly cringeworthy way. Fleabag is actually an adult life commentary style comedy. It was very well received from a critical standpoint as well.
4 July 2017 at 23:34 #60378you are a genius 🙂
4 July 2017 at 23:21 #60376I also thought this song could apply to either Bill or Missy
I wasn’t convinced that this eels song, was quite right, but it could apply to the master given the Doctor;s mancrush.
4 July 2017 at 23:16 #60375Thanks. I remember she brandished it and I thought it then went into his pocket. I dont remember whether it came from her pocket or his. If she picked his pocket, then it implies she remembers quite a lot (contrary to the end of the first part, where she seemed she didnt realise where she was). Whilst watching I thought she remembered and she was carrying a spare (and hadnt realised she was remembering herself).
The nice thing about the stabbing and the creation of another timey-wimey Moffaty loop is that it is nicely ambiguous so both Simm and Gomez (pr even a mixture of both) can reappear as the Master should Chibnall and the actors want to.
4 July 2017 at 20:24 #60371🙂 I may be wrong, but I thought he pocketed after Missy said she remember a mad women (I forget the actual wording) telling him to always carry a spare demat circuit.
4 July 2017 at 20:22 #60370The obvious possibilities are when the Doctor was exposed to the vacuum on the spaceship or when Bill shot him. I didnt notice anything before then, although, as you suggest, the scene in the Pilot during the Dalek/Movellan battle is also an obvious place where something might have happened.
As you suggest, S10 smacks of the Doctor trying avoid something (the regen). You can add the giving Bill his helmet in Oxygen and his reckless behaviour in Extremis (the timelord tech scene) to your Eaters of Light example.
4 July 2017 at 20:06 #60367Oh I was certain Missy gave the Master the demat circuit when I watched the episode. Missy said he had enough time to get back to his Tardis and regenerate (into Missy or another Master or perhaps not at all).
4 July 2017 at 18:14 #60361I may be wrong (and would need a rewatch to remind me the exact order)Â but didnt he show regen signs during the woodland walk with Bill, before the battle. This suggests the opening scene with the Master ? [but that seems to small to damage him that much, if a two or more cyber-blasts werent sufficient to either kill him or cause instant uncontrolled regeneration).
I think Moff has something particular in mind, which I think will go back to earlier in s10, but who knows what Moff/Peter have in mind for this different regeneration.
4 July 2017 at 01:56 #60337Thanks. They should publish a compendium of the strips, if they havent already.
4 July 2017 at 01:41 #60336🙂 I like it. Looks to be a bit too expensive for the BBC though. If money was no object, I’d like to see some rat things as well (from Snow Crash Neal Stephenson novel for anyone who doesnt know the reference)
4 July 2017 at 01:27 #603334 July 2017 at 01:23 #60329Fantastic. I haven’t seen that before.
4 July 2017 at 00:42 #60325Jim, I cant remember the character name, but the head of Torchwood in RTD’s second finale was able to override the Cyber-control and helped fight off the Cybermen. Although that was also a first gen Cybus Cyberman.
Yes it must be possible that the cyber control software and network might eventually take over Cyber-Bill as Bill implied. However, Bill shows the control process (hardware/software) isn’t perfect and can be overridden. In the story, it seems it takes a while for Bill to fully assert control (Nardole’s Bill’s back comment) and her self identity grows with time [the Doctor may also have had a fiddle whilst she was sleeping in the Barn]. To me that opens the possibility that any cyberman could be freed.
In any case, I don’t see why the cyber-control software couldn’t be hacked and cyber-network disrupted by other means (Surely with any advance opponent this would be a significant means to attack/defend against a cybermen attack). In which case, it must be hypothetically be possible to liberate each individual human brain within cyberman from cyber-control. The human inside could then assert control and individuality. It might not be a very nice life, but it is a life.
For advanced cybermen (especially those constructed from dead bodies) I’d have to agree that this seems much less possible. The degree of living Brain matter left would seem to be much less (why is it even necessary ?). I’m not necessarily convinced the idea last season was that thought through as we saw Danny Pink’s face was intact, whereas one might imagine this wouldn’t be the case for an advance Cyber-design.
3 July 2017 at 21:50 #603123 July 2017 at 21:42 #60311For anyone else, the comment I was referring to is in here
http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/doctor-who/news/a831224/doctor-who-missy-michelle-gomez-exit/
3 July 2017 at 21:25 #60307🙂 In 60302 above, I meant to add Nardole as well into my statement/question.
3 July 2017 at 20:48 #60302Casting my mind back to one of the spoilers you posted last week (the Moff quote one, that confirmed Missy was going to “die” in the finale), Moff said everyone will be back for the Christmas Special apart from Missy. That confirms ? Bill (and Heather ?) will be in the Christmas special doesnt it.
3 July 2017 at 20:44 #60301If Moff had the extra time, he might have have found a way to do that. In retrospect, I half expected Heather/Bill to rescue them. It strikes me that would be something I would expect Bill would do. That’s what I’ll choose to believe assuming Moff doesnt fix it in the Christmas show (I’ve made an additional point on the spoiler thread, if you go there).
3 July 2017 at 20:39 #60300Not sure about great big TV its certainly too old for UHD resolution. I guess you need the blu-ray DVD to check it out for sure. At the time, I thought it was just Peter looking at whatever injury was there (under the bandage) that had been repaired.
Like the Missy’s ring idea, it could be someone else’s hand as the lighting is poor, which would help disguise a change. I had thought I’d caught something different about the hair during the regen scene. I watched that several times and decide that it was nothing, but a wind effect added during the regen.
I was talking about C though, when I said I was expecting that development.
I expect he’ll be delighted and laughing his head off at the effectiveness of his micro-scale acting.
3 July 2017 at 18:44 #60291I think it was accurately over a short distance (the top to bottom of the ship), although it seems care would need to have been taken as the Master used too much welly and blew his dematerialisation circuit.
3 July 2017 at 18:40 #602903 July 2017 at 15:35 #60278I can only speak for myself, but nothing you posted ruined either the finale or the christmas special. I would agree, that in an absolutely ideal world, we’d know nothing about any of the stories before hand to maximise the surprise factor. Who is too popular and the BBC has promotional reasons to make that impossible.
Whilst I know the Christmas special is a 2 Doctor story and partially set on a WW1 (and perhaps WW2) battlefield, that has only increased my anticipation to see what Moff has in store for us. It would take something along the lines of a leak of the episode, script or a detailed synopsis to ruin things. I read a spoilerish review of the final episode. Apart from the very first scene (Master knocking out the Doctor) I learned nothing of real substance.
3 July 2017 at 15:25 #60276I didn’t have a problem with the end watching it (although perhaps I was a bit too pleased with myself seeing Heather back, even though it seems like the nature of the liquid and its source is going to be left unaddressed). It certainly worked in the context of the entire series. I’d have to rewatch the Pilot, but my impression was that Heather chasing Bill was partly driven by the liquid’s need (Pilot seeking Navigator; Pilot choose Bill).
I suspect a deeper relationship between the two of them might have made the reunion at the finale touch a deeper emotional level for the audience.
I suppose the problem with establishing depth to the relationship is Bill’s wide eyed and delighted enthusiasm wouldn’t work in the context of losing an absolute girlfriend
You’ve got me wondering now if having seen what happened to Heather in the Pilot, Bill ought to have become less wide eyed and enthusiastic quite quickly. I don’t think that there’s an easy answer to that one though. However, I’ll leave that to you, @bluesqueakpip , @thane15 and others to comment on if you so choose 🙂 . Critiquing literature is not my forte.
In any case, Moff only had a certain amount of time to devote to this element of the series and the closing third of the Pilot would have been difficult to fit into a later slot in the series. In that context, he made it work well.
3 July 2017 at 14:39 #60271The other thing that didn’t quite work for me was the return of the Cybus Cybermen. I know I’m biased, but design-wise they really didn’t compare well to the Mondasian versions and I hope that they get at least another redesign in the future that takes on board the more organic body horror elements that the Mondasian version convey so well. I suspect the more modern ones were used because they more robot-like and it’s perhaps less disturbing to see them getting blown sky-high as opposed to something a bit more recognisably human. And I quite liked that there seemed to be an actual point for using the Mondasians. I’m not sure those art-deco metal masks would have conveyed the same buried emotion that that cloth face and blank eyes seemed to for Cyber-Bill.
The Cyber-Bill scenes add to the Doctor’s moral quandary with the Cybermen doesn’t it ? Whilst it may not be possible to deconvert a Cyberman, Bill “proves” it is possible to undo the emotion/neural network control functions, free the Cyberman and giving them back their free will as cybernetic human beings.
3 July 2017 at 14:30 #60270I don’t know about her being turned back into a human ‘it’s only atoms’ – I don’t think that power has been established for Heather/pilot
Even though its an episode that I loved, one can certainly critique resolution of the Bill story. Episode 1 never gave any depth to the Bill/Heather relationship (rather there wasn’t a relationship). The ending is more Disney fairy tale style than one build on a real world foundation.
3 July 2017 at 14:21 #60269It’s never to late 🙂
Unfortunately, I dont think we’ll see a Valeyard story (unless the idea appeals to CC). I would see the desire not to regenerate as a step along the path to becoming the Valeyard.
I don’t know if you’ve had the chance to see the Moff interview in the after show. Moff makes his ethos on making Who very clear. It’s a positive life affirming view, which is why he could never kill-off (permanently) Clara or Bill, especially given the target audience for Who. I admire his principle on this, although it leads me to ask other questions.
2 July 2017 at 22:24 #60226That’s a nice idea, but I’d suggest something simper. The new Doctor won’t close the door on the Doctor’s past in totality, but on the themes explored in the Doctor’s character in AG Who. In either case, it’ll be interesting to see what Chibnall does. I imagine he has an idea already.
2 July 2017 at 18:09 #60212No matter how epic (or not) Moff makes the story, it will have its smaller scale more personal moments as that seems to be his style, especially at finale moments.
I suppose any multiple Doctor story tends to become fairly epic in nature. Two doctors generally suggests a major league foe, which by past AG examples seems to have tended towards Timelords, Cybermen, Master and Daleks. I don’t know if any of those feel that appropriate right now (and some seem to be completely ruled out in any case).
Having seen both D1 and D12 both wanting to avoid regeneration at the end of The Doctor Falls, you have to presume (don’t you ?) that the story finale has to see both of them reconciled with their regen “death”. This seems rather obvious mirroring as they are both D1 of their regeneration cycle (see also @bluesqueakpip‘s analysis above who makes a very similar point as well as highlighting that we don’t know how many regenerations D12 has anymore). That suggests a possible twist of some sort ?
One last thought, the after show interview with Moff also suggests something on a major scale given what he said about what he was going off to write that afternoon.
2 July 2017 at 16:11 #60205Thanks. What does feel epic enough though ? Daleks seem too obvious. Something new ?
2 July 2017 at 15:36 #60203 -
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