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    Miapatrick @replies

    @bluesqueakpip @jimthefish Gallifrey seems to be something of a battleground for the show runners. Or a pantomime…

    RTD: They’re all dead.

    SM: Oh no they’re not.

    CC: Oh yes they are. (possibly).

    As you say, the Doctor destroyed Gallifrey. Or at least, now, he thought he did, he had decided to do it and was willing to go through with it until a viable alternative was offered. The Doctor might need to keep that in mind, regarding the Master.

    @mudlark I think quite possibly somewhere else. This still means they’ve still majorly meddled with the time line to wipe out the human development of the technology, and pretty much everything else they’ve done since going back, though.

    @bluesqueakpip I agree about the Master’s possible motivations. It’s a discovery that would shock the Doctor on a moral level (which the Master would know) and shock the Master on a – I don’t even know what to call it. It would hit his pride and self image and sense of superiority.

    The only reason I’m leaning away from deliberate genetic experiments at the centre is that we know that exposure on the Tardis during pregnancy is enough to effect a single generation mutation to possibly the most important difference between Time Lords and humans – regenerations – River. And, assuming this Doctor does come after Missy, that mutation alone was enough to make her respect River more than any of the Doctor’s other companions. She hadn’t turned guid. but she sympathised with him for his loss. So A: a lot of Time Lord stuff seems like it happened pretty quickly and spontaneously, an effect rather than an effort, and B: The Master’s master race ideas are relatively flexible. Of course that’s assuming a fair amount of consistency, and as this Master admitted to Graham while tempting him with the history of the Doctor ‘a few inconsistencies…’

    So the two hearts might have been deliberate. And I know there’s other differences. But the regenerations could still be accidental, and the Master isn’t, historically, all that bothered about how they come about, or about the two hearts etc. Of course, Missy’s sympathy could have been because she was intending to persuade the Doctor to save her so ‘haha your wife died’ wouldn’t have been great policy. Or she might have respected River’s chaotic aspect. It’s just that the Master has only shown an iota of respect for one human, and that was a human born with the ability to regenerate.

    Either way it all brings a new resonance to ‘but you look human’ ‘you look Time Lord!’


    Miapatrick @replies

    @mudlark ah, but that’s time. They could have gone far back with their new abilities to get the jump on all the rivals.

    @blenkinsopthebrave – don’t worry, I’ve got you – possibly:

    @mudlark – what if they stole, and then changed the course of history? Which we’ve been reminded can happen. This would potentially require ‘fixed points in time’ not to exist until after the Time Lord shenanigans, maybe that itself, fixed points, are a result of Time Lord actions. So they stole the tech, used it to go back in time and prevent the humans ever getting it. Then went far far back in time, changing almost everything in process, to get and keep control and credibly be able to claim ‘oh this? Just something we knocked together…’

    And then maybe all this threatened quite a bit of chaos, because of all the meddling. So somehow ‘fixed points in time’ become a thing, and they talk about not interfering (even though they do) partly as a cover up, partly to avoid further damage.

    And yes that would create a big massive paradox, but they could have worked out a work around for that first…


    Miapatrick @replies

    @ollie14 me too – see you at the season finale! 😉

    Miapatrick @replies

    @bluesqueakpip, @jimthefish, the mind wipe thing is a can of worms – though as @bluesqueakpip says, there is reasoning behind why it might have seemed necessary for one pair and not the other. I think Ada and Noor actually did some coding work with the Doctor, explicitly learned the future development of their field, here the Doctor more or less just boosted what Tesla had already made. But even though that might be necessary for Ada (for the development of her work, and in terms of the program, to avoid her work turning into a bootstrap paradox) I’m not so sure it was as necessary for Noor. And as I’ve said of Ada, I think it would have been possible to talk to her, and explain how it was necessary for her to develop what she was going to develop without this knowledge. That would be quite a wrench, to chose to forget all that, but I think it’s a choice they could reasonably have her make.

    And if the point is that the Doctor doesn’t, that this mind wiping is going to turn out to be significant, then having her mind wipe two women in one episode and not mind wipe two men in another is uncomfortable, even if the circumstances are a little different and Tesla is supposed to evoke Van Gough.

    Unless it’s really important that she doesn’t mind wipe Tesla, his eugenics interest is going, in the end to be relevant, and the scavenging aliens is in fact some kind of hint/forshadowing/connection to the beginning of the Time Lords.

    Miapatrick @replies

    @juniperfish yes- I think one thing we noticed last season was the Doctor as inventor – twelve was very much the professor. We saw thirteen at her beginning jerry rigging a transporter, making a sonic. The choices of Lovelace and Tesla make perfect sense with her.

    The show tends to focus on the positives of historical figures, unless they’re Hitler level. Churchill was all positive stuff and Nixon, other than a brief debate ‘hippy!’ between River and the Doctor.

    Miapatrick @replies

    @jomomentor to be fair, they were tumbling over each other and their own legs…

    Miapatrick @replies

    Completely off topic but nice to see Goran Visjic, always a pleasure.

    Miapatrick @replies

    @jimthefish congratulations, Doctor! Frankly I lack your willpower, I’ve posted more on here when I was working on my undergraduate degree, and now that I’m working on my postgraduate degree than I did the couple of years when I wasn’t studying.

    Miapatrick @replies

    @thane16 In my case it was essentially me, in a bad mood, butting in on someone else’s argument, which was my bad.

    Miapatrick @replies

    @peacefrog considering your response to his mention of his arthritis was:

    ‘We all have problems in life, get over yourself.’ I’d say the shots fired balance still lies with you, I’m afraid. And it’s hard to convincingly argue that all you ask for is a mutual level of respect when the first person who was disrespectful was you.

    Additionally, you seemed to be arguing in part that you were the first one cracking jokes about your condition – to back up your injunction that he ‘get over himself’, and then to expect a more sympathetic response to information to shared in part to justify an unsympathetic response to what he told you. If you think he should get over himself, then you need to do the same. Don’t follow an unsympathetic response with indignation at a lack of sympathy for yourself, essentially.

    Personally I find your reaction to ‘I hope your parents are proud’ as mystifying as you find irritation at snarky comments about typos. And you probably don’t understand how irksome ‘get over yourself’ can be in that context.

    Miapatrick @replies

    @peacefrog maybe calm down a little. You did say you were sorry and you were joking and followed it with ‘get over yourself’, turning your apology into a continuation of snark. I feel that if you’ve lurked here so long, you ought to know us a little better.

    The way the exchange above reads is: you said something snarky, he said something snarky back, you declared a snark war ‘want to find out what I’m like when I’m not so nice?’. So you yourself both initiated and escalated.

    There’s a lot of very intelligent people on here, some of whom have learning difficulties/disabilities/whatever we’re calling ourselves these days, some with physical disabilities, which is the cause of most typos you see here. Personally I er on the side of tact until I know someone really well. And to be honest I don’t particularly want to worry about any mistakes I might make being picked up on, I get enough of that from my MA tutor. 😉

    Degenerative conditions particularly suck. I see my boyfriend getting upset over things, and have to tell him I can’t quite relate, I’ve never been able to do that. (small stuff, walking in a straight line, spell a perfectly ordinary everyday word off the top of my head and so forth).

    Miapatrick @replies

    @ollie14 is he though? As @bluesqueakpip has pointed out above, hot camp want to kill the doctor Master (she didn’t phrase it like that) is always performing in front of at least one other person. When it’s just the Master and the Doctor it’s more on the lines of ‘how else would I get your attention?’ ‘Gallifry is destroyed’ ‘by the way it was me, I won’t tell you what I found out to make me do it, because I had to deal with finding that out on my own’.

    I’m personally torn between placing him between Simm and Gomez (to explain why Missy was so friendly towards the Doctor even before she started to ‘grow’), and after Gomez simply on the basis – again, as @bluesqueakpip pointed out – they tend to meet each other in order. I’d also point out that rather than kill the companions in front of her, he left them in an almost-but-not-quite impossible situation. I’ve said before the Master likes to play with his food, but here he’s jumping straight to ‘hello, I’m going to kill you’ before instead getting her transported off the crashing plane and not actually killing any of her ‘pets’ (as he’d see them).

    He makes sense as coming after Simm mostly because he’s so gung-go death to the Doctor angry at the moment – only he isn’t like that without other witnesses. He’s reaching out to her. Which isn’t at all Simm when he died. So the explanations are: what he discovered about the Time Lords has changed, somewhat, his attitude to the Doctor, and this is the Master just before Gomez, Or he’s post-Missy, and what he discovered has set him back a little, morally, though I’m not sure Missy was, by the time of her death, quite beyond killing humans.

    Miapatrick @replies

    @drwhoopinion it’s true that in the past relative minorities have been the ones opposing what we now call atrocities.  A big part of that has been the balance of ‘preaching’. People didn’t think about it, or accepted the justifications. Literature in particular has always had a polemic side. A core point in the development of the novel was the idea it can be used to address attitudes. You don’t get much more preachy than Dickens…

    The USA is, as are all countries, a flawed country. As you say, all have societal norms more or less accepted, even when they make people uncomfortable when they think about it. So it’s a good idea to encourage people to think about it. Sasha Baron Cohen, I read one time, wrote his dissertation on: ‘the road to the holocaust was paved, not with good intentions but indifference’. The time to protest social injustice is when you have people’s attention.

    This episode – I felt it was preaching to the converted, that the only convertible people watching, given the way it was managed, were the fairly young, who can’t do anything yet, and things are urgent enough that we need action now. CC isn’t terribly good at preaching. He isn’t really using the companions enough either. It might have worked better with Yaz or Ryan, on realising it was earth saying, of course, look what’s happening, they’re right, we’re doomed, and the Doctor saying ‘no, it’s not too late, this future can be changed’. And of course, the woeful science rather undermines a general argument that is literally built on science. It’s a matter more of skill than concept.


    Miapatrick @replies

    @missrori thanks for the clarification! I have to admit that had me stumped!

    That sounds stressful, and dealing with parents as an adult can be tough – I also live with my mother, though in my case it’s more her living with us.

    I feel for kids nowadays, I hate those memes that get circulated mocking young people for protesting about the environment by talking about how in their youth there wasn’t all this disposable plastic, lifts everywhere, PlayStations etc – as though the changes in the world that took place during their adulthood are somehow the responsibility of generations not even born at the time…

    Miapatrick @replies

    @phaseshift I think that would be very enjoyable, and good to have something to watch and discuss during the Who-less months. (Or what am I supposed to do with my time? Write my essays? besides, my whole course is about adaptions and dialogues between texts, so I’m sure it will count as study.)

    It appears to be, as well as Sky box sets, on Amazon (to rent, unfortunately), NowTV, possibly USA Netflixs? and Showtime, so it’s reasonably get at-able. And well worth buying on DVD anyway, in my opinion.

    Miapatrick @replies

    ‘I hope that you can recognize that the vain caricature this show has become is not acceptable, and insist that it be returned to its proper place, a show of quality and some dignity.’ guys – don’t we have an acronym for this? Think @jimthefish coined it…

    @indigo-1, no, being a fan doesn’t mean giving blanket acceptance – in that, it doesn’t mean you have to like, or agree with, anything. This site has plenty of critical assessments of different episodes.  We don’t all agree. But we do accept that one person might like an episode very much, and another person dislike it, without anyone pretending, or just being slavishly loyal. And many of us have seen enough of old Who to know that quality has varied, considerably, over the years in different runs. While I think this is a flawed episode, with some good bits, and while I’ll probably always prefer Moffat’s version to CC’s, I’m well aware that Doctor Who changes, firstly, with different regenerations, secondly, with different show runners, thirdly, with different eras.

    If you’re not a troll you’ll be able to explain what in particular you disliked about this episode – but only if you can avoid the terms SJW, PC, or anything being forced down anyone’s throat.



    Miapatrick @replies

    @peacefrog hi, great introduction to the forum! I’m glad you’ve finally signed up.

    Miapatrick @replies

    I thought quite often this was quite an old fashioned Who. The ‘Dregs’ standing in a desert surrounding, just a lot of the setting and atmosphere.

    I liked what the Doctor had to say here, but I worry about it. A good message to feed kids today, but even if many of them learn it, it’s a bit on the latish side. This a few decades ago would have been good. I worry that people watching this today will either agree with it (because they already do) or take unction. I don’t know if it will make converts in significant numbers to do any good.

    My first thoughts had been nuclear related, because that was what I was taught to worry about as a child. (Not that that has done much good on a whole).

    Miapatrick @replies

    @jimthefish I’ll have to rewatch, but as I remember, she was involved in helping the doctor re-program things, which would have meant considerably accelerating her computer programming knowledge. She was certainly still with the Doctor when she turned up having done her thing. I might be wrong, but even without that – she was exploring and speculating in her time. She wasn’t even thinking of computers on the level of what we have now. The very concept of ‘programming’ was brand new where she was standing, and she was right there at the birth. Even the idea of what she glimpsed in the modern day might derail her thoughts.

    That said, it is ethically questionable. A few minutes – ‘I need to wipe your mind, because you need to do what you’re going to do, and you might not be able to do it, or do it differently, if you remember all this’ – and she’d realise that could well be the case, and she’d have the choice, would be better.

    Miapatrick @replies

    @phaseshift that’s an excellent point about Dracula, I hadn’t even thought of it like that. But of course, Dracula wasn’t written as a period piece. While many of the older Gothic novels were theoretically set in medieval times (Radcliffe was terrible for anachronisms) Dracula was very much about the relocating of the medieval into the modern. And they did keep up with the referencing to the ‘New World’ which at the time was slightly confusing, I kept thinking the ship was headed to America. So surely, placing him in modern day England is about as faithful to the book as you can get!

    And in a similar way, when people complain that some of the attitudes are too ‘modern’, that’s actually where a Radcliffian reference slips in. The Female Gothic was always decidedly post-enlightenment – the ‘good’ characters distinguished themselves, at their best, with attitudes closer to late 18th century Britain than medieval Europe (especially the particularly barbarous idea of medieval Europe they somewhat chauvinistically painted. Despite his supernatural core, Stoker was in many ways writing more in the female gothic tradition (sex, desire and patriarchy, active female characters, focus on psychological responses (while Radcliffe’s heroines aren’t drawn with great depth, their responses to moments of tension are quite realistic.)

    So in this remake, they were simply doing what late 18th and 19th century horror writers usually did with horror. A faithful reproduction would be impossible because what was modern at the time is terribly old-fashioned now. And as I’ve explained to random people on t’other place more times than I can count an agnostic, feminist (in modern terminology) nun at that date is perfectly feasible. I actually credit some of the movement throughout the 18th century towards woman’s rights to the reformation – losing a potential avenue by which a woman could achieve political power, intellectual achievements without having to negotiate the secular world, status, and independence from the male members of her family.

    Oh, also, Penny Dreadful! Haven’t thought of that for a while now very much want to re-watch, and it appears to be on sky box sets! I agree with @phaseshift entirely. I found the first season fun, I thought it was quite clever to call it what they did, despite using stories from the higher literary cannon of horror, it seemed to manage expectations in a way that actually ended up being quite deceptive. And I’ll watch Eva Green in just about anything. Very interesting dovetailing of the Frankenstein story with elements of The Phantom of the Opera.

    As for the mind wipe in Who, I can see how it would be completely necessary. Those could be some catastrophic spoilers. Disturbing, when she’s pleading with her not to do it, but Ada’s knowledge of the work that built on her own could completely disturb her pursuit of her own work, and narratively, I’m not sure there was any way around it other than a bootstrap paradox, which could have taken something from her own achievement. Such an impressive part of her legacy was, though she didn’t pull it completely out of nowhere, what a complete innovation what she did was. It would have been better to have her agree to the mind wipe for these reasons, which could have been a moving, rather than disturbing scene, where she sacrifices all this lovely knowledge, just the kind of thing she loves, in order to play her part. I think she was clever, brave, and strong enough for that.

    Miapatrick @replies

    @blenkinsopthebrave at the moment the Doctor believes the Time Lords are they way they are because of exposure to the time vortex, isn’t it?  There has to be some kind of truth to that because that’s how River ended up with regenerations. Direct mutation of a human embryo.

    Could this be more about how the Time Vortex came to be in the first place? Could the Timeless Child be the source?

    It’s difficult to think of something so bad it would make the Master so furious, traumatised, and angry. It’s difficult to think of something that would create this kind of reaction in both him and the Doctor. The Master could get incredibly upset if he found something out like: The Time Lords are actually just normal humanoid creatures, even humans, kidnapped and made into Time Lords through the vortex (although if that was really going to upset him, Missy would not have been so sympathetic to the Doctor over River’s death. She was the only ‘human’ who’s relationship with the Doctor the Master has shown any respect for). The Master knows the Doctor well enough, it has to be something he is sure would shock the Doctor as much as it shocked him. That’s really hard to think of.


    Miapatrick @replies

    @juniperfishI would say he was an early, voluntary? experiment, and changed just enough to make him do what they wanted him to do – lose just enough of his humanity. And to show him what they could do. They went on to completely change the DNA of other humans, working towards the stage where they could upload themselves inside him.

    If the idea was that some humans would remain to supervise things, as he said (though just because they told him that doesn’t mean it was true!) probably best that they not be entirely human. They might try to save friends and family…

    Miapatrick @replies

    @bluesqueakpip: ‘He kneels to her.’ yes!

    Miapatrick @replies

    @bluesqueakpip I noticed the desperation and angry sadness when he said that!

    I’m absolutely on board with post-Missy, since we seem to have been given a reason for, shall we say, a little moral regression. I’m not sure Missy was entirely reformed anyway. This Master seems desperate. ‘both Ones Who Ran Away’ exactly. At least since the gap, a particular relationship between the two has been developed through different stories. Something different from the other Timelords.

    I also noted in this episode all the ‘when I kill someone I expect them to stay dead’ stuff was said in front of witnesses. I was looking out for that, since it was in the trailer. When it was just him and the Doctor – in the flesh, or in the message – there was a switch in attitude.

    Besides, as Eleven once said I believe: ‘love a psychopath, me.’ I think a considerably better job has been done on the Master than was done on River, psychopath wise. He really does enjoy killing. And yet, the Doctor is going to have to go get him at some point.

    @missrori ‘darkness always wins’ it ain’t over yet, the world. And no, that’s not what the show is going to say either. Light never wins, in the world, either, to be frank. It’s an eternal backwards and forwards. But this is Doctor Who, as you say.


    Miapatrick @replies

    @bluesqueakpip I agree about Missy somewhat – that is, what he’s doing now makes sense as either between the two or after Missy – it could either explain a more friendly disposition to the Doctor in Missy originally, or explain why oh so nearly properly ‘guid’ Missy is back on human swatting form. And as you say, the Doctor tends to meet the Master in order.

    ‘How else would I get your attention’ is reminding me of something – might be a line from Kill Bill.

    Anyway, the Doctor is going to have to go find the Master and get him out sometime. Which means unfortunate conversations with the companions, Ten had a moment like that with Martha, I think.

    By the way, why so secretive? Does the Doctor normally keep so much of their story quiet with the companions? Ironically, she only told them once she knew that what she’s telling them might not be the truth, or the entire truth, so she’s still withholding. Such a warm, friendly, down the line Doctor. And so far, the least forthcoming.

    Miapatrick @replies

    @badwolfalice I am very, very happy about the arc. I enjoyed the last season, mostly, I thought it was a nice, long playing story about grief, informed by, but not focusing on the Doctor’s own multiple bereavements, which I think helped clear the emotional air a little. What arc there was was essentially the relationship between Graham and Ryan. I liked it.

    But now we seem to be properly back to the bonkers theorising. Much as I liked the last season, my favourite thing about Who is speculating. It was Moffat’s version that got me hooked. And there wasn’t really much to get our teeth into last season. Apart from ‘the timeless child’ reference.

    Miapatrick @replies

    @thane16 it’s fantastic on re-watch. So many clues in retrospect, which is where they belong. The Fry character says ‘o’ when he dies. Well, it’s just a sound you might make when you’ve been shot in the head. O tempts Graham with his Doctor files (loved the first time round the comment about ‘inconsistencies’). O gravely needles the Doctor a bit when the aliens turn up ‘look what you’ve done, you’ve led them here. They’re after you’ in essence. Well it appears to be the case, and the former spy might be a little concerned at having his safe haven located. Why was O quite so paranoid, enough to set up all these traps. Why are his defence systems precisely that: traps? That happen to work on these creatures? Well, knowing about all the occurrences and invasions might make you a little paranoid. The alien code is in the same kind of form the Doctor and O communicate in – well, it’s an effective method.

    I think he fooled the Doctor because the Doctor is clever. She’s clever in a specific Time Lord kind of cleverness. It’s a bit lonely. She met someone else who seemed almost as clever. She was fooled for the same reason Twelve wanted to reform Missy. They want someone to talk to. They’re lonely being the only Time Lord. And frankly, compared to The Doctor and The Master, even the other Time Lords are a bit thick. And finally, he fooled her into a fake friendship because they were friends.

    Miapatrick @replies

    @juniperfish I felt as though the 7% not human DNA was a big part of Barton’s coldness here.

    And I think the Master played the Nazi thing a bit camp mostly because he’d find the concept of human racism ridiculous – not because of anything fine in his character, but because he holds the whole species in such contempt. Pot calling the kettle a piece of cooking equipment, in his opinion. How could he take a bunch of humans calling themselves a master race seriously?

    Plus it would somehow interfere with the brief moment of uneasy closeness between him and the Doctor. The Doctor’s enduring bond with a mass murdering psychopath is easier the less we associate said psychopath with our own evils. That said I was uncomfortable with the hiding under the floorboards scene. It felt, at best, crass. Possibly historical proximity, I wonder if I’d feel the same at a scene in Tudor England with the Doctor hiding in a priest hole?

    Miapatrick @replies

    @devilishrobby possibly because of the concept of the Time Lords as a really, really Big Bad. Bad enough to upset the Master, and he usually likes that kind of thing – I’m reminded hazily of Ten talking about how Time Lords have to look into something – and what was in it turned the Master mad, meanwhile, the Doctor started running. (it’s been a long time since I saw that episode, so that might be wrong.)

    I do remember thinking at some point that meant they both had intensity negative responses to it, compared to, apparently, the rest of the Time Lords. So are the Doctor and the Master the great opposites they appear to be, or somehow on the same side of a coin, the opposite side being the rest of their people?

    I think it was going to be a less impressive invasion till the Master stepped in. They seem to be after data storage, in other words, a place to live. Just another alien race trying to colonise our planet then. I still submit that trying to upload themselves into human bodies is a little Cyberman-ee. In an inverted way, perhaps.

    Miapatrick @replies

    OK, interesting: ‘how else could I get your attention?’ or was it would – after all, how else would the Master get the Doctor’s attention? He can’t just call like a normal person…

    So this could be between Simm and Gomez, or after Gomez – I think I remember she refused to regenerate, did she? So has the Simm version.

    If between, the events of this season might explain the kinder disposition between the Doctor Missy rode in on. If after, it might explain something of a moral re-set. Either way, she’s going to have to go get him.

    Miapatrick @replies

    @pedant yup, and often when they’re not metaphors for male sexual violence, they’re warnings against predatory lesbians..

    @juniperfish I don’t know – she was in hospital dying, so they would probably have run tests on her – she was asymptomatic when she drank the blood. It’s possible that the pain was the process of regeneration rather than the cancer attacking, but that rather depends on no scans or blood tests.

    Then again, Dracula and Agatha are the worlds leading experts on Vampirism, doesn’t mean everything the ‘know’ is true. What if ‘death from the blood of the dying’ is on the same principle as sunlight, crosses, invitations? I’m just imagining a rather awkward morning after neither expected to experience…


    Miapatrick @replies

    @devilishrobb yes but the niceness at the end, the siding with him – that was the whole plan. Give him a Cyberman Army. That’s simply what she was up to. Not the kind of gift he would ever want. So still evil, but somehow kindly disposed towards the Doctor, which is the kind of change I’m talking about. Giving him the army was the idea from the start, not the result of reformation. That doesn’t occur till later. Even her sympathy over the death of his wife later on isn’t so much the result of mellowing, as the fact that River had Time Lord DNA, and she was able to respect that relationship more than she ever could with his human companions.

    So I’m probably not making myself clear. Missy starts out evil as ever, starts to change, grow, reform etc. But she starts out not exactly hating the Doctor in the traditional manner. She’s talking about friendship of more value than human conceptions of love, she’s not trying to kill him, she’s creating for him a deeply disturbing and horrible gift, because she’s the Master, and is disturbing and horrible, but doesn’t seem to hate him. Doesn’t want him dead. It’s almost like a cat bringing you a half killed bird. So it seems some kind of change has occurred, not reformation by any means, but in her attitude towards the Doctor.

    And it’s this attitude that enabled him to slowly get through to her, when he saves her life and keeps her prisoner. If it had been Simm’s Master in that volt, this really wouldn’t have happened.


    Miapatrick @replies

    @devilishrobby oh she wasn’t good, but she built the cyber-army for him and referred to their ‘friendship’. She was less hostile to the Doctor, just as murdery to human beings.

    Miapatrick @replies

    @fatmaninabox it was Mina who had a bit of a thing for the barmaid, which to me means Victorian Clara confirmed. Agree about sister Agatha, was quite glad to see her come back.

    Episode two- The Master! The actors had a pretty good new year period!

    @pedant – additionally, I felt as though he realised that he’d always thought he could die any time he wanted, that he was more vulnerable than he was. You can’t stake yourself, that was made clear. He’d have to let someone kill him, he couldn’t just walk out into the sun, let himself be killed by the one he loved. I think he’d set up a kind of romance about it, how much he loves and misses ‘her’, and partly, romanticised it because that was, ultimately, his way out of existence. Agatha/Zoe (mostly Agatha) debunked this. But that was the way he was always going to go, let himself be killed by the one he loved, in some sort of fashion. So he drank her blood.

    By the way, we don’t completely know that Sister Agatha is dead. I know blood is lives, and she was somehow living in her blood inside his body, but I wonder if that is conclusive?

    I liked the Lucy stuff. It was recognisable but changed – she ended up engaged to the Texan, one of the other young men was gay and a little preoccupied with the Doctor, but there were always slightly homoerotic, if disturbing, elements to the three of them, coming together in love and friendship to kill the (ghastly undead walking abomination who used to be) the woman they all love. I was rather expecting all three of them for the death of Lucy.


    Miapatrick @replies

    If these light creatures aren’t Cybermen, or not quite, we know that as well as changing people’s DNA if they get hold of them, they can be used to transport people from the site of one of their ‘bodies’, to this weird place, and from there to the site of another of their bodies. So if they grab hold of you, you’re destroyed and replaced by a shell, if they walk through you, or surely, if you walk through them, you end up in that place, where you can be pulled out and transported in place of another of those creatures.

    Are you actually placed inside one of them, some kind of other dimension, but actually within them? I’m not sure, with the timing, the creature she replace could have been the one that moved her in the first place. But they seem like some kind of hive.

    Regardless, best plan seems to be, for the companions, to walk into the creatures if they’re still on the plane, and hopefully end up where the Doctor is now. A hard call for Yaz in particular, Ryan might be able to reassure her that they’ll all be together this time. The Master could have just had them killed the way the spy were. Instead he’s put them in a situation where there is only one way out – Yaz has already experienced it, the Doctor’s just gone that way. This would also tie into the theme of alone v together, better together (as a group) which has played in the background from the last season. And of course the Doctor being better with companions which I think has always been there somewhere.

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    @arbutus – he did – but not so quickly. Haha, caught me, I’m the master, finally got you, now you die! Now obviously the Master’s MO is heavily influenced by the fact that it’s part of an episodic drama made for TV. But that’s the same reason you could say Hamlet prevaricates. So in drama you make it part of the personality. The Master favours elaborate, long drawn out attempts to kill the Doctor, preferably humiliate them first. Until you get the feeling he (I’ll just say he here because Missy didn’t tend to want to kill the Doctor. She wanted to bring him a little more over to her side so they could be friends again, and when that didn’t work started shifting herself.) is just addicted to the interaction. If you’re drinking a really nice wine, you sip it. I think – I haven’t seen so many of the older Who Master episodes – that in New Who there is an emphasis of an underlying bond between them. They’ve either been the only two Time Lords, or the only two Time Lords standing against the rest of the bunch. That the Doctor will forgive the Master however many humans are killed is at once the most human and the most alien thing about the character.

    All this said, however, did that Master actually try to kill the Doctor here? The Doctor was transported to wherever Yaz went. Yaz wasn’t killed, she was actually transported back to the Doctor (and the Master) physically, at least, pending a DNA check which I’m surprised hasn’t been done yet, she wasn’t even harmed. She was taken to where she needed to be, apparently with the Doctor, actually with the Doctor and the Master. Within the Master’s Tardis, no less.


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    @cathannabel ah I suppose it’s a matter of balance. Overall relatively positive at t’other place, more positivity than I’ve seen lately at least. And random box ticking winning hand at bingo troll over here.

    Ah but what you have to understand is said troll isn’t just talking about this place, oh no. They’re referring to the internet. The trolls, don’t you know, own the internet. This site is a downright assault on their territory. Hence the anger. Civilised discussions of Doctor Who? We’re basically taking a poo on their front lawn, here.

    I think we’re all hoping Yaz gets a bit more time – and she did in this episode. Two scenes at the beginning to the other’s two’s one, we see her juggling both home life and work. Possible friction involving her sister and friend? Is she going to have to make a choice between travelling with the Doctor and her career? Where would she be doing the most good? In the former she is literally helping to save the world, but the Doctor would never set up what she does as more worthy than people, living on earth, doing their best to help people. Has her DNA also been changed? I like that they showed her genuinely traumatised by the transportation.

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    @ollie14: Missy wasn’t with him all the time, though, so he might remember bits. I think it’s possible, if he is between Simms and Gomez, that he has an extra sense of hostility towards the Doctor but doesn’t quite know why, just running with it. Of course, all this is based on the idea that the Master is being honest with the Doctor in the last episode, so we’ll see how far that gets us…

    Missy coming just after him made sense until Simms Master turned up last time, because she was more friendly deposed towards the Doctor, in her twisted way, which would have made sense with how they last parted. But then, there is he was, going full sadist (but, as I said, playing with his food, not jumping straight for the kill).

    I think other reasons – depends if the alien threat here is Cybermen. They make me think of Cybermen. He’s waited to go for this Doctor, perhaps because wiping out Capaldi Doc would prevent Simms Master’s death and his own regeneration? He can’t prevent Missy occurring, which he knows she will, but he can punish the Doctor, but then he wouldn’t know what happened with Missy – unless he was able to create some kind of a record? I don’t know, it’s the Master. I think I just want an explanation for Missy’s reformation that isn’t mostly ‘being in a female form’ since it can’t be how they left it at the original end of Simm’s run because of his return.

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    Yorkshire is still recognised as a geographical and cultural region. When it comes to specific police stations, like hospitals, the program will tend to make them up.

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    @badwolfalice a few people – like @thecaptain above have speculated that this Master comes between Simm and Gomez, which I think might make sense. I think the aliens are Cyberman related at least, I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a Master quite so instantly, frantically determined (or claiming to be) to kill the Doctor. The master usually likes to play with his food. Which is why he often goes hungry. Missy was, yes, becoming redeemed when she died, but she started that series, evil as anything, but friendly, in her fashion, towards the Doctor. It would make sense if something happened between the Simm death and her arrival.

    As I recall, memories are shaky after Timelords meet their past selves, but this Master might be extremely angry and wanting the Doctor dead once and for all without quite realising why.

    That said, Missy’s final redemption occurred when she was with her past self. So by that logic, the Master might not remember it enough. I’m not sure I want an endless cycle of the Master’s redemption, but nor do I want it to only happen when the Master is female. But then again, it’s not about what I want.

    But we don’t know what he’s up to. No good, I’m quite sure. But ‘everything is a lie’? Is that to do with the place the light creatures come from, the place where Yaz and the Doctor were sent to, something to do with reality and dimensions? or is it about what they observed in this first episode on earth? Or something about the Doctor’s life?

    I think we’re getting an arc.

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    I’d heard rumours of cyber men – possibly from a promise of ‘old enemies’, but not a whisper of the Master.

    I think the aliens are cybermen, especially what with the Master and all.

    So has the Master switched right back? I’ll be concerned if historically the closest the Master comes to redemption is when they’re a woman. But you never, never, know with the Master.



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    HappyNew Year everyone, and NEW DOCTOR WHI TOMORROW!

    In my house there is so much booze I’m slightly frightened, we’ve already had two dinners, and someone’s already fell asleep.

    Miapatrick @replies

    @janetteb thanks, love. I’m feeling pretty pessimistic at the moment (at least I’ll either be right or pleasantly surprised…) dark days indeed. The fact that tomorrow is Friday the 13th really doesn’t help!

    I’m hoping for a small victory at least, that I’ll feel part of. The candidate I’m voting for slashed the incumbents majority from about three thousand to six hundred last time. That said incumbent has since quite, due to unexpected integrity and principle, and their new candidate seems to have no links to North Wales, let alone our region.

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    @missy his ‘shut up – shuttedy shuttedy up’ moment in his last season (I think) was a clear tribute to his Malcolm.  The man has fantastic timing and verbal dexterity, so I suppose the lesson is, if you’re going to do something, do it well.


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    @cathannabel I’m so sorry to hear this. I absolutely think Who can be a source of hope and comfort – especially here. x

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    @thane16 the outline for assignment scoring is written, in my opinion, for advanced STEM students. It’s all quite complicated. The conversation there came about because I was reminding people (and myself) that the first assignment score accounts for only 5% of the taught module score (which is itself only 50% of the Masters) so, not to panic. But they way they worded it, some people thought it was 10%, some people thought the only score that was applied was for the longer end of module assignment.

    @janetteb – for me it was just a delightful bonus! I had mixed feelings about the coming of the computer age (I had to support it, my father wrote a book about ‘Computers In Schools’  way back.) I’ve started writing notes by hand, even though it’s painful (here we see another less talked about aspect of dyspraxia) and I’d completely forgotten about the ‘give up and squiggle’ when writing longer words. It does annoy me when people go on about how you ‘learn better writing by hand’ (quite possibly, the pain really hammers it in there) ‘write better, more creatively by hand’ (actually I do better when I can write faster, uninterrupted and undistracted by ‘how the hell am I going to decipher this later?). The OU let me take exams on my computer – in my house! Very strange experience. Answering exam questions on computer I did find harder than doing it by hand in many ways. But it was readable, and I could get more words down, and when I did well I didn’t have the suspicion that the marker gave up in despair about half way through and decided to give me the benefit of the doubt.

    @bluesqueakpip absolutely. To be fair I’ve had some very patient (is that the right patient? ironically this was a word I got wrong repeatedly during one assignment) tutors about the fact that I didn’t know the word ‘than’ existed (thought it was ‘then’ for both) and all kinds of similar mistakes. And I have improved but I have nightmares about my dissertation – they do take it into account then? I hate writing shorter essays for many reasons, but the longer pieces of work are a concern for proofreading. I love reading the notes on the texts, all the mistakes that appeared in the first editions etc from actual, certified genius’.


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    @bluesqueakpip that makes a lot of sense about the instructions. People were getting confused about how the MA module was scored, and people kept linking to the information on the website which is frankly, on first encounter, a mass of acronyms (had to use google and then cut and paste for that word) many quite similar to each other (TMA, EMA, OCS, OCAS). But I’d had a chance to get to grips with it during my undergraduate degree so I spelt it out for them.

    Never could ride a bike. I got a motor scooter, eventually passed my CBT, then crashed into a post. You really do need a good, instinctive grip of left and right to be in charge of an engine, I think.

    and @janetteb, absolutely. Sometimes you can improve on things (my spelling is better now the mistakes are no longer masked by my appalling handwriting, though, unfortunately, they are a lot more noticeable) but a lot of the time you need alternative strategies, or extra help. The worst thing is when people think the mistakes are down to laziness, when it’s honestly not that I didn’t bother to proofread, or didn’t put much effort in. I have a weird blindness for vowels within a word.

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    @devilishrobby as @bluesqueakpip says.

    The misconception is a problem – I was diagnosed with dyslexia at school, later told that it was dyspraxia I had when I was tested before starting study again. In my case it affects spelling, punctuation, and grammer in my written work, as well as handwriting (doesn’t help that I’m sinister…) but reading not at all. I read at an adult level very early on.

    I was unreasonably happy when Ryan made a comment about a job he had, and struggling to understand instructions because the bike thing, nice though the representation was, is the sort of thing every body knows about.

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    @thane16 just in the later stages of my first essay, and experiencing my usual nightmare that my tutor might simply point out that I have completely misunderstood the critics I’ve quoted, I wonder how far I might push the concept of reader response over authorial intent…

    To be honest, when I write fiction I usually don’t work out what I’m doing till after half way through the composition – on some occasions, until someone kindly informs me during a workshop (I usually attribute it to my subconscious, and take the credit 😉 ). And one thing that drove me crazy during the last seasons of Game of Thrones was when the series runners waded into the raging debate about the latest episode spelling out what the characters meant, what their motivation was until the whole thing seemed to mean less and less the more the creators spoke up.

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    @thane16: I’ve just read that Barthes died after being  knocked down by a laundry van, and I can’t help imagining a disgruntled author pulling off his disguise and cackling manically as he drives down the street…

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