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25 June 2017 at 23:57 #59683
And yet, and yet. SM also has the problem of the Master to deal with. I’ve said before it’s a perennial problem in bringing back the Master — once you’ve brought him/her back, you have to find something to do with them. Even the original show had this problem. After a bit of disguise tomfoolery, inventive dispatching of bit characters and general moustache twirling, he would tend to just change sides and then live to fight another day. RTD got round out by turning him into a Joker-esque maniac and Moffat went down the route of exploring the core friendship between the two characters.
How big of a problem need this be ? At its simplest isn’t the Master the anti-Doctor. What AG Who has done is to make the Doctor a more complex and nuanced character than was possible in BG Who. On the same basis, it ought be possible to make the Master a more complex, less black and white character in the same, but opposite way, as the Doctor rather than just the archetype for evil.
That love/hate relationship between the Doctor and Master, better expressed as bitter rivalry surely, was there from the start. In retrospect, the Master’s anti-Doctor plans were always more of an intellectual test than actual attempt to kill the Doctor. If you want to assassinate someone, then the simplest plan will always be the most effective.
As I see it, what Moff has given us is only part of the Master’s origin. Best friends can grow apart in time, but not all become bitter rivals as a result. It seems to me, that there is more that the origin of the Master/Doctor relationship than we have seen yet. That leaves future show runners and writers plenty of space to develop the relationship further if they want to.
In any case, I am looking forward to see how John Simm plays the Master next week. We know he was never that happy with RTD’s conception of the Saxon Master.
25 June 2017 at 19:14 #59662I said I was balancing on a pin head and suffering from hypocrisy 🙂 In the story that Moff wanted to tell for the finale last year, then there was no way that the Doctor could save her. If Moff wanted to tell a different story, then he could have invented TL tech that destroyed the quantum shade at that last moment, so that she continued to have a heart beat.
Musing on that point. Is there a difference between Bill, who continues to live with an artificial heart/lungs and Clara who lives without a heart beat at all ?
For me there is. Using medical tech to keep someone who would have died alive is perfectly normal for us today (although it not accepted by all religious beliefs). Clara isnt biologically alive nor is she an android like Nardole. As I said, the difference is pin head sized.
By the way, it is completely possible that Bill never died after she’s shot. We know the Brain continues to function, after the heart stops, for several minutes, even 10s of minutes in the right environment.
25 June 2017 at 18:57 #59659🙂 I can and will be perfectly willing to agree with you as soon as the next episode.
Right now, so far as I could tell from the story, all we know is that the Master was on the ship (how/why ?), watched a genesis of the Cybermen and was instrumental in when Bill became a Cyberman (ie as soon as the process was refined and worked). The rest remain open questions subject to speculation.
I certainly share your view on the Master. The Master will have found the cyber-conversion of a companion of the Doctor particularly enjoyable. His betrayal of Bill’s hope and their friendship would have been the icing on the cake.
I don’t think Bill can be the first Cyberman (the Surgeon knew the emotion limiting and control technology worked already), but that isn’t a particularly big issue. As soon as the emotional control tech is developed all of the remaining patients can be converted immediately. She is certainly one of the first group of Cybermen developed on the ship.
25 June 2017 at 18:23 #59653Ah. that’s a difficult one. I didn’t like the saving Clara element last year, because I saw the fact hat Clara was dead already, when he arranged for her to be taken out of her timeline, to be a line that (for me) the Doctor wouldn’t cross. The Dead cannot be saved this way. Living Death, however amenable, is insufficient justification. Saving her just before her death, would have made a vast difference to me. I’m aware that I’m treading a fine line in hypocrisy here and a rather minority point of view.
So far Bill isnt dead and as the final scene hinted, she’s alive in there, but not in control of herself. Saving Bill from being Cyber-converted by changing the past or in some other way, remains a morally valid action for the Doctor at the moment. This might not be the case after next week’s episode. For me this is the important difference between the potential Bill story line and the Clara one. I know I’m balancing on a pin head here, but that’s what I think 🙂 .
Of course, there is a much bigger moral question. Is it morally right to destroy any Cyberman (except as a last resort in self defence ?).
25 June 2017 at 17:40 #59648I suggest that the Doctor’s most significant vow to himself, is to keep his traveling friends (per Bill) safe no matter what. With Adric he was convinced that there was nothing he could do (strangely that was with Cybermen too). He thought the same about the Time War and his destruction of the Time Lords and Daleks.
However, the 50th anniversary showed that with clever thinking (and help from himself) there might just be a way round the problem of changing the past.
If the regen scene outside the Tardis is in Antartica, then has Moff given himself a “Save Bill” plot for a multi-doctor story for the Christmas special ?
25 June 2017 at 17:27 #59646One explanation for the advanced Cybermen’s presence on the ship, could be continued design improvements continuing on the lowest level, whilst the Doctor/Missy/Master and Mondasian survivors (with Bill ???) move towards the upper levels and the Tardis on Deck 1.
Since I’m not convinced that I understand how the Mondasian population on the lowest deck got there yet, I think its possible that we’ve only scratched the surface of a more complex Cyberman (?) or even Cyberman/Master plot ?
25 June 2017 at 17:20 #59644Yes, the Master’s presence isnt fully explaned yet or is it ? The screen explanation that he knows Missy will be there at some point (from his past memories ?) and that he’s concerned that the Doctor’s redemption plan is beginning to succeed and he needs to stop it. In that case, presumably his Tardis is somewhere on the ship as well.
25 June 2017 at 17:15 #59642The Doctor would have to remove the cyber-control system and the emotion limitation technology for Bill to become Cyber-Bill. The patients didnt seem to find that very acceptable. However, it would be ok if the Cyber-conversion was removed totally and a replacement heart/lung technology (or cloning) was used to repair her physically. I rather think this isnt a solution that Moff has in mind though.
I prefer to look on the (Antarctica – South Pole Tracking Base ?) scene where he’s trying to deny the regeneration from starting just yet as a sign of unfinished business (saving Bill and redeeming himself ?) as the beginning to the Christmas special.
25 June 2017 at 17:07 #59639I think John Simm must have been awed by your magnificence’s fine visage, O Craig the Merciless.
25 June 2017 at 16:32 #59633Yes in that case, Moff made them all forget (something due to the regeneration wasnt it ?). However, as a general explanation it doesn’t work in any of the BG multi-Doctor specials.
25 June 2017 at 16:26 #59632I’m not much into the blame game line of thinking, but
Also, with regards to the Doctor and Bill, I’m tired of all these folks elsewhere saying that it’s all his fault!
in this case, he does have the majority of the responsibility.
- It was his idea to let it be the Missy Who show as opposed his
- Bill told him her very significant doubts and fears about Missy and his idea. he was quite blase about this.
- He let the Patients take Bill away, with no effort to stop them (there was a weapon on the floor near by as a final option)
- Worse still he was aware that a time dilation effect applied across the ship. He did dither about before heading off to rescue Bill, fully aware that minutes on Deck 1 were equivalent to months and years even on the lowest deck.
Whatever happens to Bill, he has two stories left to make a difference !
25 June 2017 at 16:14 #59630re Missy not remembering (assuming Simm Master was a previous regeneration)
It’s a convention from every multi-Doctor story ever written. If you go back to the 50th Special, the War Doctor (and Ecclestone Doctor) should have always known what happened when the Moment wasnt used. @bluesqueakpip wrote a blog post in that instance explaining how that might work (I also wrote a blog proposing a different explanation).
I think the simplest explanation is that multi-Doctors have the adventure at exactly the same time in their personal time line, so there is no prior-knowledge to remember. Essentially the multi-doctor story rewrites each individuals Doctor’s personal history/memory simultaneously. Other explanations are out there I’m sure.
Of course, it’s just as easy to propose the explanation lies within the master’s time line. We know that the Master has two sets of regenerations and we’ve never seen a Master regeneration on screen. Missy can easily be accommodated as a pre-Simm master with no knowledge of anything that happens in this adventure. There are more than the 6 Masters we’ve seen out there.
25 June 2017 at 02:15 #59589One thing that I guess we’re meant to deduce, is that the 20 or so Humans (Mondasians) who left Deck 1 to the engine room to put the engines into reverse and never came back grew into a population of thousands (I assume the city was there already ?). Is this right ?
The other thing that didnt make much sense (yet) was if the patients could use the lift to get to deck 1, why did the advance party of Mondasians disappear at the higher level ?
Time dilation effect. I think I’ve got this right.
The point of time dilation is that whilst going up the lift takes minutes in your personal point of reference, the elapsed time at either end of the ship would be very different. Thus a trip to deck 1 and back might take you 10 minutes as you see it, but years would pass at the bottom deck and only seconds on deck 1.
For the crew that went to the engine room they might be there for 2 hours say. If they then returned directly to deck 1, it would have seemed like only 10s of seconds later for those that remained on deck 1.
Therefore, the 20 or so crew would have had to decided to stayed on the lowest deck and never have attempted to return to deck 1 (why ?). If we are to believe that the Mondasian population are the descendants of the first 20 or so people, then it would have taken hundreds of years (thousands even) in lowest deck relative time to create a significant population. This might equate to 10s of days on deck 1 relative time.
The relative time (in lowest deck relative time terms) taken for the return journey to deck 1 and back, must be tens or more likely many decades or more as measured at the lowest level of the ship. Therefore the patients that went up the lift to collect the remaining Human crew and then later Bill (and why use Patients ?) would reappear tens or hundreds of years later in lowest level time frame.
That would mean the process to create the Cybermen from the Mondas population would have taken a very long time. This clearly wasn’t the case as the Surgeon and Bill passed only tens of years at the most.
I hope that makes sense. It could explain why the Mondasian party to the higher level appeared never to return (but given that the patients are created, sent to deck 1 and return twice in the same window it would seem to be implausible).
25 June 2017 at 00:08 #59574The gravitational side is quite well explained here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accretion_disk
With time dilation, its a relative effect. As a particle spirals towards the singularity, a clock closer to the black hole will slow down relative to one further away, even though the particles themselves accelerate (and heat up giving off radiation) as they spiral towards the singularity. At each measurement point (the clock) time passes at the “normal’ rate for both observers.
24 June 2017 at 23:13 #59569Hi. I may be wrong, but I didnt see anything that made Bill the first Mondas Cyberman. There were lots of other Mondasians ahead of her who cybertised (apart from adding the pain/emotion nullifying tech). Also the Mondasians were colonists trying to escape from Mondas, so presumably they can also be created there as well anyway ?
As for the Master’s role – we’ll have to wait and see.
24 June 2017 at 22:08 #59561I’m sure regen energy could repair Bill. I couldnt tell if the face in the window was Heather or not. Nice idea though 🙂
24 June 2017 at 22:07 #59559🙂 tell me that when you’ve seen the episode (I guess you wont get the chance until tomorrow ?)
24 June 2017 at 21:48 #59557Whilst you’re right about the Doctor and appearances, living as an (emotional) Cyberman is a a long way from living imo. I don’t think Moff would deliver that.
24 June 2017 at 21:44 #59556That’s a clever idea: Landing in Antarctica at the time of that episode.
I hope you enjoy the Tenth Planet. The Cybermen are at their best there (along with Moonbase and Tomb of the Cybermen). That story goes wrong in the third episode (William Hartnell was ill), but apart from that it works really well as a story.
24 June 2017 at 20:56 #59551I suppose ultimately, a point is only fixed if Moff wants it to be. I dont know if Bill survives, but since the closing scene was a tear from her eye, then it’s clear that she is still in there underneath the conversion. There is some hope then. Having written that, unlike the Raven ,where the episode never felt epic enough for me ti believe that Clara was gone forever. This episode (and the next one) are epic, so the hope may prove to be futile.
One difference between Bill and Clara, is that Bill isnt dead, she’s on life support. One would imagine the technology would be available to the Doctor to under do the cyber-conversion and fix the damage to her heart and lungs (whether by cloning organs or some other form of technology). However, the Doctor has to get her back to level 1, off the ship and undo whatever the cyber control operating system now controls her (if that is the case with Mondas cybermen). That could well be a difficult task judging by the trailer.
I remain convinced that the regeneration in the final Monk episode is real and that there is something a bit funny about Bill, but this isnt the place to discuss that. However, as we get closer to the final episodes, it’s becoming less clear what is going on (typical Moff !).
24 June 2017 at 19:46 #59540Well that was fantastic. It seems the Master helped create the Mondasian cybermen, although I think that might be a red herring. We’ll have to wait til next week to find out Bill’s fate. I’m not yet convinced her death is inevitable.
Lots of questions regarding the Missy/Master relationship and when and why the regeneration started. The Doctor is clearly trying to stop it from happening. I think there might be a clue here. One possibility is that this episode is happening earlier in the Doctor’s timelime than in either Bill or Missy’s. It looks to me that he has gone back into his own timeline in the past (I suggest Missy’s “are you alright Doctor” marks the point) and will somehow stop Bill ever going to the ship.
24 June 2017 at 01:19 #59514I didnt see or read about that interview. I’ll have to think on how that changes the way I think.
That said, I would find it quite weird to have a new Doctor in the Christmas special and have Capaldi walking around too. That wouldnt fit my definition of a different regeneration either.
Personally, I suspect the regeneration started when Bill shot him [I dont have an explanation of how that might work though] and that the death of Missy and Bill over the next two episodes (and Missy returning to be a Master instead of being redeemed is a sort of death) will result in the Doctor questioning his reasons to continue living (as the Simm Master did) and denying the regeneration from completeing. Thus Peter is in the Christmas story, as the new doctor, but with the same face as the previous one (Tennant Doctor did it after all).
The Christmas story is then about redeeming the Doctor, convincing him that he should carry on in It’s a wonderful life style Christmas story (@missrori) at the end of which he regenerates. I think (wishful thinking probably) that he’ll regenerate into either Bill or Missy as both you and @blenkinsopthebrave suggest.
I have absolutely no track record getting anything right of course…
23 June 2017 at 22:07 #59508Hi there. I think most of us are under the impression the regeneration happens in the Christmas special. Do you think its in the final part of the series ?
23 June 2017 at 17:38 #59501Thanks. I must own the DVD then.
23 June 2017 at 17:37 #59499Please forgive me if my recollection is faulty, but isnt Nardole a bio-android ? Not so different in conception from a Cyberman even. I wonder if you look at Nardole as being the a mirror image of the Cyberman, there’s an added (moral ?) depth to Moff’s overall story for the season ? I wonder if that is deliberate or an happy accident.
Your idea that Nardole acts as an external conscience makes sense to me, but I think it’s River’s oversight and conception of what the Doctor;s conscience should be, that’s at play.
The more the season has gone on, the more I would have wanted to see the continued adventures of the three of them. Is that going to add poignancy to the finale though ?
23 June 2017 at 15:34 #59494@charliegroom
The Chase. I’ve certainly seen some of those episodes although I’m not sure that all of it survives.
23 June 2017 at 11:46 #59490If you want to let the real world get in the way, matter is physically stretched out and dissociated as it approaches the event horizon. This would be especially true for a 400 hundred mile long object, the one end would be seeing very significant physical differences from the end closest to the back hole. All objects including individual atoms (i think) are eventually ripped apart. As matter is subject to intense gravitational forces and particles collide into each other, it also gets incredibly hot through frictional heating and eventually starts to generate x-ray radiation as a result.
21 June 2017 at 19:39 #59458re
This is the watering-down (IMO) that happens when creatives hit it this big — numbers tend to over-rule everything else.
While true, I think the BBC is more flexible. I watched the RTD interview (shot early 2017/late 2016) on the South Bank Show with Melvyn Bragg last night (Sky Arts channel nicely repeated it a couple of days ago). One of the things he said was that the BBC had given him complete freedom to do what he wanted with Who, much to his surprise.
He said that they told him that they knew what they were getting when they choose RTD and were most interested to hear what he wanted to do with the show. I suspect pretty much the same was true for Moff and will be for Chibnall as well. There’s quite a stable of BBC Drama shows driven by auteurs right now (Happy Valley and Line Of Duty come immediately to my mind, but I expect there’s others).
21 June 2017 at 19:22 #59456The Q&A and any press does seem to point to Bill loosing out this week, but I would think its definitive. However, she’s kept a fairly low media profile, so far as I can tell (@wolfweed ?) and as we move closer to the end of S10 finale, so some build up to the final episode would be appropriate (especially if Bill dies in that episode).
21 June 2017 at 19:15 #59455Yes, you’re absolutely right to point out that. it’s certainly possible that what we’ll see in the Christmas story. Doing it in this story would be harder (how did she get to Mondas/Spaceship), but not impossible..
We know there is a redacted scene early on in the next episode, which doesnt seem to impact the rest of the story that much. This seems a possible place to introduce Susan as an idea (to be paid off by an appearance later ?), but only (?) if the Doctor/Master/Susan link speculation has some truth as opposed to bonkers thinking. If Missy turns out to be Susan directly as a later regeneration or indirectly (the Doctor’s wife/son/daughter who was one of Susan’s parent for example) then that gives the Doctor an added incentive for the redemption to work and also to consider choosing saving/rescuing Missy before Bill. Normally I think the Doctor would choose Bill before the Master (who can look after him/herself anyway), but perhaps less so with Missy.
If Moff has been straight in his synopsis then it seems the Doctor is in a race against time and someone close (vowed to protect) will die. We know both Bill and Missy will be in jeopardy next episode. That suggests the Doctor has to choose between one or the other to me. Having a Susan realted connection between Missy/Doctor significantly adds to the stakes doesnt it ?
I’m sure this is wishful thinking on my part. There’s plenty of other options available…
21 June 2017 at 19:00 #59452@wolfweed‘s and my discussion regarding Susan came out of several different ideas, but one relates to the casting of a particular actress for the series, who has yet to appear and may well have been redacted from this episodes cast list. It seems likely that the actress must be playing a well known role or it wouldnt have been redacted. Susan seems a strong possibility. Other possibilities can be imagined as well !
Alternatively Susan could appear as part of the supposed D1 involvement in the Christmas Story (using the team from the Gatiss documentary).
Was River a timelord ? No ? But she inherited multiple regenerations, which is a primary characteristic. There’s probably more than one way of being exposed to the time vortex than the TL ceremony.
21 June 2017 at 17:22 #5944521 June 2017 at 12:57 #59439@all
My money is on the Doctor having to decide between saving Bill and rescuing/saving Missy and failing one of them. My guess is that the redacted scene from the preview will be something that gives the Doctor a strong potential motive to chose Missy first instead of Bill. The death (if that happens) could be in this episode or the next one (surely a cliff hanger ending for this weeks story ?).
Since I’m usually wrong on these matters, I’m not putting actual money on this.
It seems likely that the bad guy who threatens Missy will be the Simm Master rather than the Cybermen. But given Missy’s link to them, it must also be possible that there is something hidden going on there as well.
21 June 2017 at 12:40 #59437Susan (and the photo in the first episode) resonates with the fan audience, but would mean nothing to the general one. To do it, Moff would need to make the general audience buy into the idea quite quickly and for it to resonate for them. That’s quite a tight rope to walk. That is also the biggest reason he might be doing something else.
21 June 2017 at 12:29 #59436@devillishrobby
I think its a casting and general audience requirement that there be only one Master at a time. Like with multi-Doctor stories, it was always be the Doctor (current actor) show whilst the other ones will have more secondary starring guest role.
We dont know yet whether Simm Master is going to retake the role as an infrequent guest star or is just back for this story. Likewise unless we see Missy regenerate on screen, we wont know that she is dead and gone for good. She may come back (or Simm) or it may be a new actor.
21 June 2017 at 12:21 #59435@thane15 @devilishrobby
I can only speak for my impression of the UK, but the level of interest shown by other media (reflecting the interest of the population as a whole) is quite a bit lower right now. There was a time when hardly a day went by without Who or David or Matt being mentioned in the media. There’s still a lot of coverage, but not to the same extent.
Not just at the BBC though. The level of general interest has died away somewhat. I don’t think its got that must watch TV pull at the moment. Before any one complains, TV shows in general have gone down a notch over the last 5 years or so.
21 June 2017 at 02:00 #5941321 June 2017 at 01:35 #59411Wow. Great memory. That was a surprise having watched it. Its plausible as a jokey wind up for the fans, but such a strange place to say it. I shall try my best not to get my hopes up. How would that play into the redacted scene as a theory ! ?
On the spoiler thing, whilst I can believe its correct, it could also be the biggest red herring as well.
21 June 2017 at 00:01 #59405As they’ve hidden it is must be godsmacking (or is that me getting too enthusiastic), but I really cant see how a few minutes early on, isnt reflected in the rest of the episode.
I agree with you, that idea would be complicated, but rather exciting too.
20 June 2017 at 23:56 #59404I really hope not !
I dont think Chibnall needs to be all doom and gloom. For example, looking back to BG Who, especially the earlier Doctors, the Doctor had a degree of reckless curiosity that got him into trouble. He had to investigate to find out what was going on and there were few short cuts (the sonic opened door mostly). The Doctor wasnt angst ridden either. With the reboot, Chibnall has the chance to change the fundamental basis. The characterisation may become lighter, but as Broadchurch shows, he does have an interest in doing complex emotion driven stories. I dont think it’ll become frothy nonsense.
20 June 2017 at 23:41 #59402I just read that 5 minutes ago after the reading the Daily Express nonsense. I shan’t say anything either.
20 June 2017 at 22:18 #59396Absolutely. You describe all the reasons why I’ll be tuning in. I think they’ll want to do something new, on top, with the setting. I’m not sure what, but I expect it’ll be interesting.
I think Gatiss probably produces his best when someone else is involved, to tone down his ideas
20 June 2017 at 22:13 #59395I dont think the character’s name necessarily rules your idea out at all. It must (! ?) be a name we’d know or there wouldnt be a point in hiding it. Therefore your idea can be 100 % right, but there’s another depth we dont know yet.
20 June 2017 at 20:50 #59388I’ll be interested to see what they do with the Dracula story. I dont think they’d want to redo the original story without some major changes. A Modern day setting has also been done quite recently. A steampunk (ish) version was very recently done with Jonathan Rhys-Meyer as Dracula. It must be a new take.
One possibility might be something along the lines Kim Newman did in Anno Dracula (I found the book to be a bit heavy going at times, but was well worth reading).
As a complete aside, if you’re an open minded Sherlock fan, try giving Kim Newman’s Hound of the D’Ubervilles a read. Its a series of short stories in a very anti-Holmes/Watson, pro-Moriarty/Moran theme. It’s great fun.
20 June 2017 at 20:33 #59387I looked back and can see the similarity to the picture outside the library. I must be too dumb to get your hint though ! 🙂
20 June 2017 at 20:28 #59386My opinion is worth nothing, so here goes !
A hard restart implies a new Doctor and companion and no direct continuity, but then to a greater or lesser extent that is always true. I guess Chibnall has a different proposition, in the way that RTD’s was different from BG Who and Moff’s from RTD’s.
The total audience figures arent that different between Matt and Peter, but there certainly is less of a squee factor with Peter and a darker tone as well. That’s perhaps a nod towards a slighter older audience ? A little more introspection with Peter ?
I guess Chibnall, will go for more up tempo, more adventure and probably slightly less complex stories (more RTD like) to try and get back to something more David/Matt like in terms of audience appreciation. I dont think the story arcs will go, but may be more pervasive in each story than before (I suspect the muted writers room approach for coming up with stories tends to make it easier to a get a common theme into each story).
The BBC obviously saw Chibnall as a safe pair of hands, but they and he would have wanted more than that. The BBC would have wanted the bring back the buzz they had with Matt and a lighter tone. What does Chibbers want to do though ?
20 June 2017 at 19:32 #59379That seems possible to me. The photo’s from the episode also show a more modern Cybermen as well as the Mondas ones, which suggests something more complex. I suggested the liquid could be filled with cyber-nanites.
20 June 2017 at 19:29 #59378The thought had crossed my mind as well. I think the odds are still more on Missy than Bill at this stage. Moff said the final episode was going to be a bloodbath or something similar. I expect the last episode will have the biggest sting to it, to set the path for Christmas and then into Chibnall’s hard restart.
I also remember (back in RTD time) that Simm wanted to do something different with the Master than RTD had allowed him to. I hope that we’ll see an extended, occasional run of him in this role, rather than some new casting.
20 June 2017 at 19:23 #59374Are we sure she is in this week’s episode (and not in the week afters) ?
The absence of a character name could only be because its a recognisable name. Another Master would be feasible (but three in an episode ?) but the new Doc option would be very surprising as it would over shadow the final part and the christmas special too much. A new Susan then ? (other time lords possibilities as well.).
Something else to look forward to in any case.
20 June 2017 at 12:54 #59345@thane15
🙂
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