Into the Dalek

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    geoffers @geoffers

    @purofilion – bless you for being a teacher. you are made of tougher stuff than i, and a hundred times more brave! 🙂

    Anonymous @

    @geoffers Ah thank you. Doffs sun hat. Fortunately I work only part-time at school (2 days really) and the school itself, is a state  (govt) school but I also work at uni where the students are a little more mature -though having a high opinion of themselves all the same.

    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    I watched early this morning (about 3ish) and seem to have missed an awful lot looking at these posts. A rewatch is surely in order.

    I really did enjoy it though. Ben Wheatley would be welcome back in the Directors chair – there were some lovely flourishes from him, and I particularly liked the the brush with psychodelia as they entered the Dalek interface, and the battle scenes with the Dalek attack on the ship.

    I also loved the idea that the Daleks are hardwired to have non-conforming thoughts and memories blanked, keeping them nice and loathsome. Others have mentioned some great turns by the guest cast – Zawe Ashton and Michael Smiley (yey! Tyres from Spaced in Doctor Who!). Intriguing introduction to Samuel Anderson as well.

    This is actually shaping up to be really good – I think the continuing debate on the Doctors morality is good to see.

    Oh – and the Duplicate reference. It has been used before, in the fifth Doctor Resurrection of the Daleks.

    I meant to mention it because the modern nano-converted humans get a dalek eye on the forehead and these guys had them in a helmet – an earlier version perhaps? Whatever – it muddies the water so it may be a term of reference thing – these rebels may consider them Duplicates because they don’t realise they are hollowed out humans (they weren’t particularly that knowledgeable about Dalek construction either).

    I shall be back later this afternoon after the coffee had done its work and I have had a rewatch.

    geoffers @geoffers

    ah, @wolfweed – “Gretchen Alison Carlisle sacrificed herself. Did Humpty sacrifice himself?”

    someone around here theorized that missy could be some cosmic toymaker, i believe? if so, is she collecting all the “playthings” the doctor is “discarding” along the way, for some future devilry? or is she setting up the board for a cosmic game of chess, and gretchen and humpty are two of her pawns?

    (and, yes, i’m firmly of the opinion that he jumped voluntarily, after accepting the doctor’s “persuasive” argument.)

    ABXY @abxy

    Hello everyone! I’m a bit late to the forum because I was at my dad’s birthday party, but I’m here now! I just watched the episode, and I might go as far as to say I liked it more than Deep Breath, which I loved! Terribly long post ahead!

    It really set the new Doctor’s moral ground, and helped viewers understand the new dynamic between The Doctor and Clara, which I find now to be a very strong friendship, with Clara making sure The Doctor doesn’t step too far out of line.

    I liked the introduction of Mr Pink as an ex-soldier who obviously deeply regrets something he did whilst at battle. What’s everyone’s theories on the Soldiers of Pink and Blue? Red herring or something else?. I reckon he’s going to be very important somehow. Not sure how yet though!

    As for the actual story, it was just as fantastic as I expected it to be! The whole idea of most of the episode taking place inside of a Dalek, and a ‘good’ one at that, intrigued me! I did suspect at the start that the ‘good’ Dalek might be the mad one (I can’t remember his name for the life of me O_o), but after watching, I’m starting to doubt myself a little in that respect.

    The darker side of The Doctor surprised me for a moment when he simply brushed aside the first soldier’s death like it was nothing, not even something to worry about much, but it was interesting to see that side of him flickering in and out like that.

    I liked how The Doctor trusted Clara enough for her to be able to go off on her own and do what was needed without getting killed/kidnapped/knocked out/whatever else could have gone wrong.

    I really have no way to sum up everything I’ve just said, so I’ll just say it one last time: Awesome episode! 😀

    Apologies for the long post and any typos in it! (I’m on a phone)

    Anonymous @

    @janetteb are you ready?? whee -hee. I did watch.. eerm …the first 20 mins of the ep on i-view and then read the posts. I must not do that in future -but I’ve lost my patience -it’s in the building somewhere?

    Now, which movie had Donald Sutherland miniaturised and put into a human? I loved that film! I watched it many times -so many I can recall all the other stars, the name of the film and when it was made!


    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Rusty seems to have memories of ‘Dalek’ & ‘The Stolen Earth/Journey’s End’…

    Do you suppose he bought the complete box set?


    Silverman @silverman

    @purofilion – the only film this reminded me of – mostly just in concept – was ‘Inner Space’…

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    When did they all get out of Rusty and unshrink?


    Identical robot copies made by the Daleks debuted in ‘The Chase’, but were first called ‘duplicates’ in ‘Resurrection of the Daleks’…

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Looks like the Doctor was defeated by his arch-nemesis, the leader of the pudding-brains…


    ScaryB @scaryb

    @fatmaninabox Pink/Blue to denote gender. You are absolutely right, it used to be reversed (in 19th century). In fact it was red (and shades of, for boys) and not-red for girls (not-boys).

    This is an interesting development of the topic – with a photo of Benjamin Franklin looking very cute and girly (the fashion at the time) –



    ScaryB @scaryb

    @wolfweed 25% audience share is still impressive, and there will be a big jump-up when the timeshifted figs are added.

    “Leader of the pudding brains” haha (tho that is a VERY scary photo to expose people to on a Sunday morning!)

    Ubik @ubik

    I spent the last half of the episode thinking Clara would inhabit Rusty’s carapace and go on to be incarcerated in the Daleks’ Asylum – then rescued – thus closing a story loop.

    Was it only me?

    Anonymous @

    @abxy I didn’t think he brushed it aside -he made it important. IN a soldier’s way. They were inside the most ‘evil thing in the universe’. Later, in the fatty deposit pond (@Bluesqueakpip said) The Dr said “he’s on the top layer, want to say a few words” – a soldier’s humour. If a soldier in 20 years sees death and destruction, what would they see and how would they behave in 2000 years? I’m surprised he has a measure of compassion at all!

    I loved the Genesis metaphor with the Dr recreating the  Dalek universe: “And it’s good…I see that it’s good”. Of course, with a dalek it couldn’t last. What superb irony.

    So Danny is a teacher of Maths -quadrilaterals were on the wall of his class room. Lots of boxes closed and opened up. Nice touch.

    It’s interesting that the Dr should take the mickey out of Clara’s age: “I’m 27, oi” and the Dr “yeah, if it keeps your spirits up”. Almost as if the claricles have ages and the Dr is aware of her Impossible ‘Girl’ Status (the inherent contradiction). Surprised there hasn’t been a conversation about it between them. Or, if that pointer about age and spirit was supposed to lead us to Missy, in some way. Like @barnable I’m throwing my hands up and going ‘what the hell’? Doesn’t Missy have a creepy left eye -no, right eye!

    Another proper watch tomorrow -wasn’t that miniaturisation chamber great? The way it moved!!

    I have to say that the production values are amazing -seeing the Dalek blow up in slow motion and then when Journey Blue finds herself looking up at the bronzed metal of the ‘steering’ of the Tardis, it looked beautifully clear. The team’s work is superlative.

    Kindest, puro. G’night all.

    ConfusedPolarity @confusedpolarity

    Well I loved Deep Breath, but I think I liked Into The Dalek even more.  If they keep this up, it’s going to be my favourite series of the AG era by a mile.

    A few random points (I’ve just watched again on iPlayer and my mind’s a bit scrambled – probably should stop and think before offering my ideas but I suspect I’ll lose them if I don’t do it now 🙂 )

    Twelve’s behaviour with Ross – it’s coldly calculated, but utterly logical. He was the one who injured the creature; the antibodies will zero in on him so yes, he’s probably dead already, but would any of the recent incarnations have hastened his end?

    Personally I think Ten would – but not without explaining first and being sorry, so, so very sorry.  I loved Ten, but by the end of his time the agonising over his failure to save every last living soul he encountered was beginning to grate with me.  Twelve hasn’t got the time or the inclination; he just expects us to understand. Insensitive, yes, but absolutely logical.

    It’s been a while since we’ve seen Daleks doing what Daleks are supposed to do; the body count’s shot up overnight! I didn’t realise how few people they’ve actually got around to exterminating in recent years until I saw the skeleton effect again.

    What was the Doctor trying to do? I believe he genuinely thought he could repair Rusty and keep him “good”; his reaction to the creature’s return to its natural state was as much disappointment as self-justification. There’s no such thing as a good Dalek, but oh, how he wanted there to be!  It took Clara to snap (or smack – brilliantly done!) him into understanding that if it’s been turned once, it might be again. The relationship between the two characters is coming along nicely and she already feels much more of a companion for Twelve than she did with Eleven f0r me.

    As for that final confrontation – wow.  I’ve got no problem with Rusty seeing hatred of the Daleks – hatred generally – in the Doctor’s soul.  He’s been too much the Lonely God for my taste,  a virtual candidate for canonisation, in recent years. As Clara says, isn’t the important thing that we try to be “good men” (and women)? We’re none of us born good or bad; it’s the choices we make and the way we act on them that decide how good we really are.

    Is he a “good Dalek”? Not in the sense of being a proficient killing machine, but in the sense of being a generally good man capable of rage and hate – quite possibly the answer is yes.

    @all those who’ve mentioned the attitude toward soldiers: hasn’t the Doctor always been a tad hypocritical on that score?  Between 2005 and November last year we were presented with a man who won’t pick up a gun, yet had apparently blown his own planet to smithereens. I think it was Nine who was asked “coward or killer” and chose coward, every time, but that’s never really been true; he’s always been willing to kill the villain to save the good. Clearly with Danny’s past it’s going to be a theme explored this series.  I’m not sure what to make of Danny yet, either.  I’m just hoping he’s not going to be the perfect man for Clara to settle down and produce a troupe of little Pinks with.  It may have been an obvious “out” for a female companion in the 1960s and 70s, but I’m not sure it would pass muster now 🙂

    So Missy’s going to pop up every week, is she? I hope not! It’s a bit too much “bash the audience over the head with the significance of the story arc”, although Gretchen’s arrival being show but not Ross’s makes me more sure than ever that Half Face Humpty jumped last week.  It’s those who sacrifice themselves in the Doctor’s name that she’s collecting? I’m beginning to wonder if “Missy” isn’t so much “Mistress” as “Mistakes” – some kind of creation of the Doctor’s subconscious where those he’s seen die on his account wind up.

    Lord knows how that could be translated into the real world – perhaps he’s creating his own internal version of the Valeyard that in the end will break out to confront him?

    Overall – probably my favourite 21st century Dalek episode and confirmation that Peter Capaldi (by God, what an actor! Matt, David and Christopher are all darned good, but he’s a different league as far as I’m concerned) is already my favourite 21st century Doctor.  Next week looks like being a complete change of tone, and while I suspect it’ll be very divisive I’m looking forward to a lighter runaround. I just hope they’re not going to try and convince me that “Robin Hood” as a single individual ever really existed…







    There are two

    Fantastic Voyage (Raquel Welch as Clara)

    Innerspace (Meg Ryan as Clara)

    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Those who haven’t seen it should watch the original…

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @wolfweed – 5.2 million against Simon Cowell with a 24% live audience share is fine. Better than fine, in fact.

    If you want some comparison, there’s a ratings accumulator showing initial-overnight versus final for Series 7 at Doctor Who TV. As they say, the figures don’t include iPlayer. They also don’t include the overseas showings of Doctor Who.

    In these days of time shifting and iPlayer, Doctor Who will never beat a popular live voting show on the overnights; households will pick the X Factor live and watch Doctor Who later. The BBC knows that – they just want to schedule a show that won’t embarrass them with less than 3 million viewers.

    Which is what the BBC shows immediately before and after Doctor Who got. Even Casualty and Match of the Day got less than 4 million viewers.


    Silverman @silverman

    @ubik – not only you, I was wondering that too, although as Jenna Coleman isn’t leaving yet I wasn’t seriously expecting it. Wonder if there’s a connection though – can’t help but think about the emphasis of her wincing as she received each ‘shock’ as she turned the lights on…

    @confused polarity

    Personally I think Ten would – but not without explaining first and being sorry, so, so very sorry.  I loved Ten, but by the end of his time the agonising over his failure to save every last living soul he encountered was beginning to grate with me.  Twelve hasn’t got the time or the inclination; he just expects us to understand. Insensitive, yes, but absolutely logical.

    Good point – Ten would have done the same but, as you say, would have said he was sorry.

    I have to say I like the dark sarcasm and put-downs from this Doctor. The comment about Ross being ‘the top layer’ of gloop ‘if you want to say anything’ was particularly dark, yet I laughed-out-loud.


    Incidentally – I can’t remember exactly when now – but at some point I am fairly sure that Clara said “I’m sorry – I’m so so sorry”.

    janetteB @janetteb

    Finally watched the episode over dinner, as we do then spent the next hour catching up on posts. It was excellent naturally and really needs to be rewatched but a few initial comments.

    I also caught the Carlisle reference. Significant? Maybe.  I am still wondering at the use of Northumbrian names.

    @geoffers Good pick re’ the student. I was wondering who she was.

    To those to commented on the Blue/pink naming well done.  I especially like the suggestion (apologies I did not note the author of that) that Danny is Journey’s brother. The name, “Journey Blue” was rather suggestive of the Tardis. It occurred to me that she would have made a very good companion, one who would have a lot to learn from the Doctor. Maybe later, when he is fully “cooked” he will return for her.

    A few random thoughts re’ Coal Hill. I assumed that Clara working at Coal Hill was just a nod to the shows history in the anniversary special, which I am certain is how the use of “Coal Hill” began. But Moffat takes simple ideas and develops them and possibly Coal Hill is about to play a bigger role. How does Clara come to work at Coal Hill? Is it just an almighty coincidence slapped in to the 50th to please fans? Or… Maybe the posting was engineered by the woman in the shop. Does the Doctor realise that Clara is working at Coal Hill? Does she know that Ian was once a Tardis traveller? Does she know that the Doctor’s granddaughter was a student at Coal Hill. Do any of these questions matter?

    Another thought. Is this war of future human rebels against the Daleks in any way connected to the uprising of humans against Daleks in Dalek Invasion of Earth? It looks as though we might well be in about the time of that story, in which case Susan might be about.




    janetteB @janetteb

    Oh I forgot to mention, Clara reads the Guardian. (is that a round about nod to bonkers theorising?) MOffat mentions that the main difference between the world of Dr Who and the real world is that there is no TV series called “Dr Who” in the former but is there an equivilent and if so is Clara a fan?



    janetteB @janetteb

    Sorry for the multiple posts but reading through Dan’s blog on the Guardian and getting ideas, however nobody will like this one. If Missy is collecting people who sacrifice themselves under the Doctor’s jurisdiction then surely the star of her collection should be Adric!!

    (Ducks, grabs coat, though given the time it should be a dressing gown.)



    Oblique @oblique

    There’s a  nostalgia having an older man at the controls. They’ve been getting much younger of late; rather like policemen. Mr. Capaldi, I hope, will bring a degree of gravitas back to the show.

    Regards, Oblique

    Ps – thank you, mightbesherlock, and  pendant for your responses to my post, well argued btw.



    wolfweed @wolfweed

    As I said before, Courtney is probably named in honour of Nicholas Courtney…

    wolfweed @wolfweed


    Sonic @sonic

    FIRST post….I dont ever seem to enjoy first episodes of new Doctors…the was the just flail about is a painful 20 minutes to watch…Matt Smiths first 8 were horrible,,,and this Docs stumbling around was just as bad…I almost want to see the last episode of the out-going Doctor be the season premiere…start off the new season with a regen…
    This weeks episode was just MEH! to me…a rehash of the episode with Eccie and Rose in Utah(?)


    Hoping for improvement…and YES…I will stick with it. I am a fan and that is what it is all about, innit?

    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    Ooohh. Enjoyed it even more second time around. The miracle of sleep.

    Hope @juniperfish is feeling better, and immensely cheered that with Pink/Blue names she can continue her spectrum based musings.

    I’m not willing to wager what Missy is yet, but I don’t think we can automatically assume that Ms Carlisle’s “harvesting” (if that’s a good word) indicates anything about last weeks half faced man.

    With Danny Pink having some apparent real issues with his past, I’m wondering if her motivation isn’t to “save” the people who the Doctor feels responsible for – the ones he couldn’t save or has had to finish off for the greater good. I can’t help but feel that a collection of such people would be a huge weapon to demoralise the Doctor, if he’s questioning if he’s a good man.

    Still she’s either a time-traveller or extra-dimensional (like the Guardians). She’s collected one from Victorian England and one from the far future. Hmmm. I wish @janetteb hadn’t planted that thought about Adric coming back for an appearance. That sent a shiver down my spine.

    Loved the turn-around on the age thing this week:

    The Doctor: “I’d say you were in love, but you aren’t a young woman anymore”
    Clara: “I am”
    The Doctor: “You don’t look it.”

    TheatreGuy @theatreguy

    Just rewatched Into The Dalek again, even better and richer the second time. For a show that often gets accused of writing poorly for women I thought Jenna, Zawe Ashton and Laura Dos Santos were the episodes heart and centre. I like Capaldi and think he’s growing into a fine Doctor – but surrounding him with such amazing talent certainly helps the transition. I hope this continues.

    One thought that struck me on this rewatch – how long has Missy been collecting people? If they are indeed people who have sacrificed themselves in the name of the Doctor, would Harriet Jones, Astrid, Adric and even River Song be there? Obviously it would be hard to reunite all of those actors – but it’s an interesting thought…

    Cath Annabel @cathannabel

    Just watched the episode, an interesting mixture of daft and dark…  Lots of interesting things developing here, notably the Missy mystery (agreed that it must be significant that Gretchen was the only one of the soldiers who died to make it to ‘Heaven’ and that that sheds light on Humpty’s demise), and Danny Pink (being a firm non-believer as far as coincidences are concerned, I’m fairly sure there’s a link with Journey Blue, but will await developments as to what that is and what it means).

    The soldier thing – I know there were always tensions in Pertwee Doc’s relationship with UNIT but he did work with them, and there was a strong mutual regard between him and the Brig (which has already been referenced in the AG Who  – can’t remember which ep but I think it was 11 –  and possibly in this one with ‘Courtney’).  So what’s changed?

    There was another blackboard with formulae thingies on it but my physics/maths geek chums haven’t analysed those yet…



    Cath Annabel @cathannabel

    Oh, and last week we had ‘don’t breathe’, this week, ‘don’t not breathe’.  Whatever next…

    zeitgeis @zeitgeis

    People who say that plots are predictable are claiming whether they realize it or not that that when they see X occur followed by Y, they know exactly what will occur next. So seeing humans in a damaged ship engaged in hostilities with Daleks) we will next see one of more of them in the Tardis (not too surprising), which would itself have landed on the pilot’s base ship (fairly low probability given the plausible alternatives available) where there was also an injured Dalek (extremely low probability since humans tend to destroy Daleks). Perhaps I am not very bright but I didn’t see the injured Dalek coming. Those who claim Doctor Who’s plots are predictable owe us some sort of proof.

    Arbutus @arbutus

    First impressions. Oh, good, good, good! Loving this more matter-of-fact, dismissive Doctor. I really enjoyed the rescue scene with Journey (great name, BTW!). “Not like that,” he says, sounding calm and a little disappointed. And seeing him standing there, as she came around, takeaway coffee cups in his hands. I thought, “Didn’t the Doctor used to make his own tea?” I really like the way his emotions are more internalized, this really seems like a proper Doctor to me.

    Missy seems to be “rescuing” people that have sacrificed themselves (suggesting that Humpty did indeed jump). Is it only the ones that die in the presence of the Doctor, or are there others that we don’t know about? The Doctor has a tendency to inspire noble self-sacrifice in others, is that why Missy likes him so much?

    I always enjoy an exploration of the Doctor’s feelings about the Daleks. This was a slightly new take and well done, I thought. He doesn’t believe they can ever be good. Clara gets him to see it a different way. His very Doctorish attempt to bring out the good in the Dalek, and his dismay when he fails, due to the Dalek’s nature, his own, or both?

    Oh, and I liked Danny Pink! If Clara can deal with a post-regenerative Doctor, she can certainly handle a little human PTSD.  (Is that a thing for time lords? PRSD? Off to read all the comments now, my favourite new Sunday activity.  🙂

    WhoGirl @whogirl

    Very impressed with ‘Into the Dalek’, feels like PC’s Doctor has hit the ground running. What a fascinating idea, exploring inside a Dalek. Liked the mixture of reality in this episode too- Clara and Danny Pink trying to hit it off was something a lot of us can relate to! Awkward!
    I like the ideas about the Pink and Blue names, hadn’t picked up on that. There’s definitely more to this guy than meets the eye. My sister reckons he’s an alien, I’m not sure yet.
    Also enjoying the DW Extra, it’s like having Confidential back- YAY!!

    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Only managed to watch the episode this morning for the first time as real life commitments got in the way :(. Anyway onto my initial reaction was suddenly not like capaldidoc at the the start of the episode there was something that made me uncomfortable but I couldn’t put my finger on what it was. Then as the episode went on I found myself thinking yes this is the doctor much like the early Hartnell with a very alien almost cold and calculating feel. This is more pronounced than how I felt in the first episode and I was thinking to myself well if the Timelords have effectively reset his regeneration cycle and as I am sure can be seen in discussion elsewhere he has basically reverted to a personality similar to how he was when we first met the doctor in the Hartnell period then it makes sense. When the Dalek said he saw the Drs hatred we were seeing the anger in his memory from the time war and post time war period this is what made it say the Dr was a better Dalek I am sure this has been said to the Dr before. However I’m got the feeling that at this stage that even the doctor is still struggling with who he is hence his asking Clara the question of whether he was a good man.

    Did anyone else notice the crack in the radiation housing was very similar to the cracks in time, though I am unsure if this has any significance.

    Clara’s slap across the Doctors face made me think perhaps there’s something to the theory she is another clarical it’s as if the slap bought the doctor around from making a terrible mistake.

    As for Missy I am totally confused as to what her role is to be and who she might be.

    Oh and Danny Pink a pre-reincarnation of the brother of jenny blue oh where is that going to lead or mean? Yes I can see he is going to be a companion for how long we will have to see ie is he and Clara going to become a new Ian and Barbara? Somehow I think not but given the doctors refusal of Jenny Blues request to accompany him on the grounds of her military background there’s going to have to be some reason other than Clara quite obviously is attracted to him.
    Hmm that my initial thoughts and ruminations looking forward to reading more posts 🙂

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @jimthefish   Good point about the similarity to the Seventh Doctor, who was moving in this direction in his later TV stories  as well. The Doctor’s treatment of Clara in Deep Breath was not unlike Seven’s manipulation of Ace in Curse of Fenric. But this Doctor doesn’t hide behind the mask that Seven wore.

    @cpgolfer  As others have said, I don’t think this is the show’s bias, as much as the Doctor’s. He was already moving in this direction as Ten, when he so firmly rejected guns and yet didn’t mind blowing things up with the sonic. He has clearly developed a bias, presumably post Time-War, but I think that Clara’s exchange with Danny Pink about having a rule against soldiers (I forget the exact wording) is there to make clear that she doesn’t share the Doctor’s view.

    @silverman   Good recall on that conversation with Nine and Rose. I’m pretty sure that his “no idea if he is a good man” really means “what is a good man”? I think he can remember everything he has done, he’s just no longer sure how to interpret it.

    @bluesqueakpip   Re, the Aristotle/Marcus Aurelius similarities… I love it when you do that!  🙂  I also really like your take on the military side of the Doctor, and the idea that Journey would not provide sufficient counterweight to that side.

    @lordlord    I like your view that the series arc might really be a question: Not Doctor Who? But Doctor What-Kind? Which perhaps means the same thing.

    FiveFaces @fivefaces

    As others, e.g. @bluesqueakpip and @serahni have said, that line ‘you would make a good Dalek’ contains so much scope for debate. I think there are (at least) three ways of taking it:

    a) As has been noted with the Aristotle reference, this might mean good as in an excellent example of the type. So, a ‘good man’ is the man who excels in the proper qualities of being a man (of course, what those are is up for grabs). A good Dalek is one who excels in the qualities of Dalek-ness.

    b) Or it might be the ‘good man’ who goes to war. The man who, as Nine put it, doesn’t need rules (I presume because he uses his reason to do what is right, without others having to order him to do so). For me, this is in line with a Kantian liberal conception of the good man, where the right takes priority over the good. Which is in conflict with…

    c) The man who does what is good, in the sense of what is best for everyone. This is what the Doctor does with (to?) Ross. He accepts that Ross is already dead, and uses him to save the others. Rather utilitarian, I thought: it makes the group as a whole better off, but effectively reduces Ross to being a means to an end for the rest of them. I feel the Kantian good man in (b) would not have done this, which is what makes that particular moment so unsettling.

    Have to go: but so much more to think about here!


    Cath Annabel @cathannabel

    @devilishrobby Yes, I thought the crack looked familiar…  Significant?  Not sure, could just be Moffatt messing with our minds.

    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Ooooh @phaseshift just got down to your post now there’s a thought could Missy actually be one of the Gaurdians. I am sure some On my way! Will find some reasoning for this not to be true but it does have a certain appeal especially since the doctor has acted as an agent for the white Guardian, but which will she be light or dark hmmm.
    Oh and is Mz blues first name journey, I thought it was Jenny

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    I’d agree that the Doctor uses Ross’s death in a very utilitarian way. However, Moffat has previously delivered a resounding ‘No!’ on utilitarian ethics for the Doctor – in The Day of The Doctor.

    The difference with Ross is that it wasn’t the Doctor’s fault he dies – he just can’t save him. However, what he could have done was admitted that he couldn’t save him and then say ‘but you can still help save us’. Then chucked him the spare battery (or whatever it was). That would’ve changed his death from being a means to an end into something where Ross has that dreaded word ‘agency’.

    That the Doctor doesn’t automatically do that shows that he isn’t a good man – yet. At least, not in my view. I have a deep dislike of utilitarian ethics. 😉

    Arbutus @arbutus

    Thanks for the Resurrection reference, @phaseshift, I thought I had heard the “duplicate” thing mentioned before; but I thought it might have been in audio, which I usually try to keep away from in these discussions.

    @abxy (and others as well) I think that war/the military is going to be a theme in this series. I wonder if it will tie in with the still-missing Gallifrey in some way? I can’t help but think that the events of DotD and TotD have influenced this new regeneration in some significant ways.

    @silverman   Demonstrating my parenthood here by saying that I immediately thought of the children’s series The Magic School Bus (where the bus takes the kids inside one of their classmates, to figure out what is giving him the flu)! The idea has clearly been around the track a few times.

    I agreed with @confusedpolarity about the Dalek body count, it is good to see them actually doing some damage. Also with the idea that this Doctor is not going to waste his time on regrets. This harks back to much earlier incarnations, and I like it.

    @pedant   I think she said “I’m so, so sorry” last week, when telling the Doctor that she wouldn’t go with him, just before getting the phone call from Matt. I remember noticing that phrase at the time.


    @arbutus – ah, yes.I think you are right.

    ABXY @abxy

    @arbutus – I definitely think he’s become more determined now he has a definite goal. As it was said at the end of DotD, he used to just be ‘pottering around’, but now he has a goal: to find his home. I don’t think he’ll stop at much if he finds a ‘lead’. Where that takes his incarnation is yet to be seen, but I’m sure we will see a darker show in general now. ^_^

    Arbutus @arbutus

    I suppose it is too much to hope for that Danny Pink is exactly what he seems? Just as Mickey was, way back when? That maybe his “plot importance” will be as a mirror or foil or something, to the Doctor; that their personal journeys will reflect one another; even that he will prove to be the man that Clara leaves the Doctor for? Rather than a Dalekisation or Journey’s brother, or some other complicated thing?

    @confusedpolarity   I’m just hoping he’s not going to be the perfect man for Clara to settle down and produce a troupe of little Pinks with.  It may have been an obvious “out” for a female companion in the 1960s and 70s, but I’m not sure it would pass muster now

    I’m not sure I agree with this. Why would it not be acceptable for a woman of 27 to meet someone and start a family with them? And feel that, now that she had this other person in her life, that she no longer wanted to place her life in various crazy forms of danger every week with the Doctor. It would be like the people who get married and have children, and then decide to give up smoking, or sky diving, or whatever they do that they feel is potentially hazardous. I have frequently missed the days when the companions, after having reached a certain point, left the Doctor simply to carry on with their lives, whatever those would be, rather than come to some kind of sad, bad, or otherwise traumatic end.

    ScaryB @scaryb


    Nice shout out on the “don’t breathe/don’t not breathe”

    And @wolfweed and @chickenelly‘s “eyes” motif

    Lots to watch out for, including the resurrection of @juniperfish‘s red/blue strands (thanks @phaseshift)… or maybe it’s Reservoir Doctors! (And seconding that wish that we see the finny one back here, fit and heartily bonkering, soon)

    @bluesqueakpip Agree with you re “utilitarian ethics”.  Was that not what Day of the Doctor was all about?  But even there, the Doctor(s) would have settled for the option of pressing the button as the least bad of 2 options, had it not been for Clara’s intervention, and insistence that there had to be a 3rd choice.  So – the Doctor is only a good man when tempered by a human conscience, in the form of the  companion/assistant/associate/carer. As explicitly stated in this episode. Otherwise he has the capacity to be as megalomaniac bonkers as any other timelord.

    whoisthedoctor @whoisthedoctor

    Hi all,

    I’m a new member and was just wanting to maybe mention one or two things that I noticed during the first two episodes of Peter Capaldi’s reign as Doctor.

    Peter Capaldi’s Doctor is exactly what the franchise has been crying out for. Darker, edgier, more unpredictable but funny and as acidic as hell. I think it could be a very poignant series also. From him wondering in ‘Into the Dalek’ if he’s a good man to the broom analogy in ‘Deep Breath’ which as he was saying it realised it was as applicable to him after all his regenerations, how much of the original man who became the Doctor is left. I hope we find out. I think that the new Doctor will be all of the old Doctor’s rolled into one with lots and lots of their traits and maybe he’ll always struggle to know who he actually is this generation because he’s all of them at once.

    The second thing i noticed was that the breach that the Doctor sonic screwdriver stitched up inside the dalek looked very much like the tear the Matt Smith’s Doctor was plagued by. Has that been fixed.

    I may be well off the mark but it’s good to be part of the forum and to read your ideas and thoughts

    As Peter Capaldi said after the dalek’s lingering look (sentiment from a dalek?) …..Till the next time.

    Fonsini @fonsini

    Into the Dalek – pure BBC style Social Engineering.

    Doctor Who is looking more like the product of a small group of agenda driven leftists, it’s little more than part of the continuing efforts of that fundamentally evil little minority to drive social policy and social thinking in the direction that best fits their own extreme personal beliefs.

    Firstly – Forced Racial Integration

    The racial mix of actors in the show does not reflect the population of the UK, it represents the racial mix of London, the racial mix that these blinkered urbanites see as the “national reality”, only the absence of Muslims is unusual, almost certainly due to the lack of Muslim actors.  As it is the black characters are present in unfathomable numbers.  Next we see a forced interracial relationship between Clara and a black character, a carefully crafted black character who cries when he remembers all the poor people he has shot dead during his soldiering days.  But of course he doesn’t pursue the stunning (white) Clara because that would be demeaning, so we see the absurd notion of Clara actively pursuing a black guy, a guy she literally met just seconds ago, because to the writers black people are of course irresistible to all white women.  Of course he plays hard to get (who wouldn’t) but Clara’s instantaneous love for him eventually wins him over of course.

    Anti-Establishment Ethos

    From kids openly disrespecting their teachers, to the Doctor’s open disrespect for any type of authority (remember how well he used to get along with the guys at UNIT ?) to the Dalek turning on his own kind the message is clear.  Down with authority, down with the powers that be – rebel.


    Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart and UNIT were once the Doctor’s very best friends on Earth, yet now the Doctor openly hates the military, doubtless because the writers see the military as the oppressors of the population and the paid thugs of the government.  As if we needed further proof of this agenda we see the former soldier crying about “civilians he has killed” and then the doctor tells a prospective new companion that she can’t come with him “because she’s a soldier”.

    This series has become little more than a vehicle for progressive leftists, dissatisfied with the chaos their policies have already wrought on the UK, to promote an even more radical agenda and pass it off as “SciFi Entertainment” on an unwitting population.   There are many other SciFi programs that promote subtle agendas, even Star Trek had a social commentary but nothing that was anywhere near as overt and disturbing as the bilge now being churned out by the BBC.

    You will likely disagree with this assessment, quite possibly seeing it as laughable, which only serves to illustrate how far along your thinking has been altered.

    This show and others like it are little more than brainwashing.  Brainwashing that encourages the promotion of the causes listed above, brainwashing that ultimately leads to incidents like the failure of Social Services to protect young white girls from sexual assault by Muslims in Rotherham in case of allegations of racism.

    Too much of a stretch ?  Not really, but you likely don’t see it.

    Cath Annabel @cathannabel

    @fonsini  If this is a parody of BTL Daily Mail/Express UKIppery then cleverly done, though really, most of us would probably rather you hadn’t.

    If not, I think you’re in entirely the wrong place.  We’ve all been brainwashed far too effectively, as you predict, to be won over by your arguments.  Otherwise, how could we fail to conclude that the possibility of a stunning white woman fancying a stunning black guy is evidence of social engineering rather than just one of the sort of things that actually happens, in real life, even outside London? How could we fail to see that the show is swarming with hordes of black actors for no good reason other than social engineering, rather than because they are excellent actors?  How could we fail to see that Doctor Who is the reason girls were sexually abused in Rotherham …  etc etc.

    In other words, you won’t be swayed even a little bit by any reasoned arguments we put up against your skewed, bigoted vision of the world, we will just confirm you in that vision.  Please go away and talk to like-minded people – you know where you can find them, there are plenty of you, sad to say.  Just not here.


    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord


    You will likely disagree with this assessment, quite possibly seeing it as laughable

    Hey – you called it.

    If we ever get bored with “theories even more insane than what’s actually happening” as a tagline, we’ll substitute it with:

    “Doctor Who – promoting leftist ideals since 1963”


    “Theories not half as insane as what’s going on in the head of Fonsini”

    Thanks for your custom. Much appreciated. Being trolled like that makes us feel all special.

    TheatreGuy @theatreguy

    @fonsini – do people like you actually exist? Danny Pink is an attractive, likeable and intriguing character, and his and Clara’s dialogue seemed something straight out of Coupling. What does his race have to do with anything?

    Seems you have an agenda, not the show…

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