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  • #31582
    Anonymous @

    @ all:  I have done something silly. In Oz, this episode was aired very early (ie ‘your’ time) on an ABC channel and then on our ‘catch up’ telly  but it will air ‘officially’ at 7.30pm. So what did I do? I read the comments. Not sure why! Perhaps I wanted to see if there were any random “Oh god I hated it, it was f***** from start to finish. Why doesn’t Moff kill himself”

    Pleasantly surprised that everyone simply adored it (especially the regulars)!

    Now if @whisht and others like @bluesqueakpip said “um, what the fcuk” then I’m sure I will be stunned, mouth hanging, drooling and all the rest. I don’t have Jammy Dodgers like @janetteb (and did you manage to avoid the early morning watch?) but I do have boyIlion’s scarf which I’ll use to cover my face during the scary “Oh my goodness” bits.

    I cannot wait. My brotherIlion is coming this evening and we will all a-watch it together.

    Kindest,  purofilion (PS: @Handles what did you think? Also where has @blenkinsopthebrave been? )

    #31583
    Serahni @serahni

    @purofilion  If you have a mobile device, download ABC iview for free and watch it, that’s what I do!  I see it when I wake up first thing on a Sunday, just a few hours after it’s been on television.  Even watch it in bed on the iPad, though I wish I hadn’t this morning!  Didn’t want to get out of bed after!

    #31584
    SaraOswald101 @saraoswald101

    Fear is a superpower.

    -Clara Oswin Oswald

     

    This was stunning.

    I was incredibly well impressed. Bringing the tears uo in my eyes. Clara is one terrific companion. ”Listen” was different and unexpected. A good different. A good unexpected. This episode already became one of my all time favorites. Eventhough it was confusing, it gave all the ”magic” to it. Maybe, juste maybe, there’s nothing Under the bed.

    #31585
    herisson @herisson

    I’m new here (more to follow in the proper forum).

    My head’s spinning, my brain’s scrambled, and…

    I think the Doctor saw Missy on the spacecraft at the end of the world. She’s acted like a stalker, she wears black, her original name (in scripts and credits) was Gatekeeper of the Nethersphere… Which would, imo, function much like the shadows and doubles the Doctor was talking about early in the episode.

    I think he’s being stalked by someone he already knows. As for the rest, it seems like a depiction of peoples’ dreams, Clara excepted.

    Moffatt knocked this one out of the park!

    #31586
    SaraOswald101 @saraoswald101

    ARE WE ALL NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT CLARA GOING TO GALLIFREY?

    #31587
    HisDreamer @hisdreamer

    And I’m watching this; home; alone; in the dark. . .

    {Racing to put on the lights during this commercial break. Yikes}

     

    #31588
    HisDreamer @hisdreamer

    OK, need to watch that again and again. What a fantastic episode! Scared spitless and lots for me to ponder upon

    #31589
    varatrodder @varatrodder

    2nd best episode ever.

    i love that he was wearing the same space suit that the Doctor wore in Waters of Mars.

    #31590
    fletchthe2nd @fletchthe2nd

    I’ve only just finished watching it once and worry I missed something.  Who wrote “Listen” on his chalkboard?

    #31591
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    I absolutely enjoyed that! It was creepy, scary, clever, and surprising.  If I were a child, I wouldn’t be able to sleep alone for ages! (Ok, maybe as an adult, too :gulp:)

    The little girl at school who gives Clara trouble, and Danny seems connected to (can’t recall her name), appears destined for significance. She reminded me of a mouthy River. So many possible threads!

    The theory that the Doctor–or Clara–sneak back later, hide under the blanket and return the soldier, is entirely….possible.

    What a fantastic episode!

    #31592
    Serahni @serahni

    @saraoswald101

    Fear is a superpower.
    -Clara Oswin Oswald
    Oh man, that just hurt my brain.  My first instinct was that The Doctor said that first to Rupert.  And then I realised that, technically, Clara said it to HIM first when he was a little boy.  But she said it because she heard The Doctor say it, right?

    My brain just broke.

    Also, interesting point about the TARDIS landing on Gallifrey, given that Gallifrey is technically lost in a pocket universe.  Of course, in the past it wasn’t, and we also don’t know for 100% sure that it was Gallifrey since we cannot 100% say that we know so much about The Doctor that we can guarantee he spent all his childhood there…

    My brain just broke again.

    #31593
    Anonymous @

    Like everyone, No Coherent thoughts, but one…   *Does drunken giraffe* GERONIMO… SM is a frigging genius!  😀

    Yes I think it was the Doctor in the barn (the eyebrows). 🙂

    I hope we get to see what was knocking and under the blanket, sometime.

    #31594
    RangerDave @rangerdave

    While I respect most of these theories some are quite out there. First of all no one necessarily is related to anyone’s time stream. They ended up in Rupert’s (Danny’s) because Danny rang her cell phone and got distracted, jumping to his first interaction with monster under the bed. Then the Doctor jumped forward still believing it was hers finding Orson at the end of the universe. Then she ended up in the Doctor’s timeline (not the Master) because she was distracted again, this time by his gasping, to his first interaction with the monster aka Clara. I mean it’s possible that Orson is Clara and Danny’s grandchild but Orson did only mention one grandparent that had stories of time travel and I’m pretty sure Danny is going to become a companion like Mickey did for a time. And Danny and Orson are definitely not in any way the Doctor’s children/grandchildren. He obviously has “Dad skills”, how else would Susan have been his granddaughter?

    Toy soldier is easily explained from hand to hand without overthinking it. STARTS in house toy box(not placed by Doctor)>Clara gives to Rupert/Danny>family heirloom from Danny to Orson>back to Clara>to child Doctor.

    Going to Gallifrey before the Time War is not in the pocket universe just like Smith and Tennant went to the barn on Gallifrey with Hurt to end the war. It’s a timey-wimey thing but it’s post-war Gallifrey that’s stuck in the pocket universe not pre-war so technically you can still go to Gallifrey (a bit sticky writing time travel fiction that nothing ever completely gone if you can travel back to before it was destroyed).

    The thing under the bed was definitely some other creature if you pause when the sheet briefly comes off the blurry image even if it was just Clara underneath the Doctor’s bed. I think she told him not to look where he was just as he told Rupert not to turn around and promise to never look at the creature. Not sure if anyone else caught that.  I’m sure the Doctor saw it after the door was unlocked. He hesitated and had a worried look on his face.

    One thing I didn’t quite understand was who was it that the Doctor said had called themselves “Awesome Pink”?

    Overall an amazing episode that blew my mind at every commercial break. I’m pretty sure they put the bland yet entertaining Robin Hood episode before this one intentionally to contrast them so much. Also, no mention of Missy or the Promised Land for the first time this series. Gotta go now I’m hearing footsteps all over this house and it’s way too dark. Probably won’t sleep well after knowing something really is right behind me.

    #31595
    SkywalkerWho @skywalkerwho

    If  Gallifrey’s past can be time travelled to easily, what’s to stop the Daleks from travelling in the past to destroy the Gallifreyan civilization?

    #31596
    Anonymous @

    @ardaraith, @jimbomcmaster, @saraoswald101, @anyone else who wants head exploded.  😆

    I believe it was the Doctor in the barn.

     Here is my explanation of the timey wimey, by follow the Dandan the army man.

     2 Rules: When changes in the past happen, a new time line is created. The new time line does not affect what already happened on the previous time lines.

     Time line 1: When 12/Clara first meet Rupert, Dandan is in his toy box. The things 12 says to Rupert about ‘fear and superpowers’, came from 12 himself (he had 2000 years to think about it). Clara got the ‘fear and superpowers’ lines from 12 at that time. Rupert changed a little bit too (passing Dandan as a family heirloom).  Clara was changed too, because she continues her date with Danny Pink (possibly leading Orson Pink? 100 years later).

     Time line 2: Then 12/Clara/Orson go to the end of the universe. Orson gives Dandan to Clara at that point. Then they travel back to Gallifrey. Not Gallifrey inside the paintings, but the Gallifrey of the Doctor’s childhood before the Time War (before paintings happened). She gives Dandan and the ‘fear and superpowers’ lines to boy Doctor at that time. We know the Doctor would have arrived at the ‘fear and superpowers’ lines by himself, but Clara probably just gave them to him earlier to help him. That was when the Doctor first gets Dandan. This changes 12 in small ways (big changes would be disastrous – see Great Intelligence in NotD).

     Time line 3: This is the final time line the story ends with. So, we don’t know how much Clara’s interference in the Doctor’s past changed things for him. Hopefully not much, everything we saw happen still happened (War Doctor etc.). But I think it did change the Doctor in one small way at the end, when he agreed not to look outside, which Clara could not get 12 to do before she interfered. Dandan should be inside the room in the Tardis with all the other toys now (12 doesn’t need to give Dandan back to Rupert, because that is where 12 got it from on the first time line. Keeping Dandan on this time line does not change that).

    @skywalkerwho – The answer is Time War!!!   That is the Daleks trying to destroy the Gallifreyan civilization.  The same thing would probably happen no matter when they try to do it.

    #31597
    Anonymous @

    @rangerdave – Hello and Welcome.  Nice short hand of Dandan. I wish I could do that. 🙂

    Toy Soldier is easily explained from hand to hand without overthinking it. STARTS in house toy box(not placed by Doctor)>Clara gives to Rupert/Danny>family heirloom from Danny to Orson>back to Clara>to child Doctor.

    #31598
    geoffers @geoffers

    excellent episode! i openly wept when the war doctor made an appearance, and i’m convinced it was a young doctor in the barn. i thought the connection was clear (although, i admit, my first impulse was that might be a young master)…

    anyway, watching a second time, and thought i should clarify, the toy soldier’s name is “dan, the soldier man.” not dandan. also, the doctor gives clara a “look” when she’s talking to young rupert, at the moment she says, “he can keep the whole world safe.” i think he recognizes “dan,” at that moment, and possibly makes the connection to the speech he got that night on gallifrey, from the woman who comforted him, but whom he never saw…

    “a soldier so brave, he doesn’t need a gun.” describes the doctor very aptly…

    #31599
    SkywalkerWho @skywalkerwho

    I always thought that Gallifrey being gone from our universe, whether it was time-locked or in a pocket universe, means that it cannot be physically accessed like what we’ve seen in this episode. Let’s say one Dalek time travelled to that point in time where the Doctor is still a child and fired at him, what would happen? Would a magical time shield surround the child Doctor? If that is the right answer then how different is that kind of event from what Clara has done (that is influencing the child Doctor through words)? You see this type of story should be thought out more before being made because Gallifrey being physically gone is a story rule I can easily digest than having this kind of mind-hurting paradoxes introduced by this type of plot.

    #31600
    Anonymous @

    @geoffers – Regretfully, I don’t know if I can ever stop calling the toy Dandan now. I don’t know where I got that from, but you are right about name. 

    You could be right about a different time line system to explain the events.  But I like the multiple time lines to avoid the “chicken and the egg” problems that come up.  I have no explaination for the Doctor’s look of recognition though.  So I can definitely see there are problems for both ways of explaining it. 

    “a soldier so brave, he doesn’t need a gun.” describes the doctor very aptly…

    Yes it does. You have a clear explanation of where he  got that from now.  Where I can only assume he came to that same conclusion on his own over time (just like the ‘fear and superpowers’ lines).  😉

    @skywalkerwho – Hello and Welcome to you too.  Sorry for not saying that earlier.

    You have a legitamate arguement.  I can’t argue with the logic of it.  But you are using logic to find ways that the story does not work.  If you succeed in your efforts all you will acheive in the end is, you will no longer want to watch the show.

    With the same logic you could be looking for arguements that make the story work.  If you succeed in doing that then you get to enjoy a brilliant TV show, for as long as it lasts.

    #31601
    geoffers @geoffers

    @skywalkerwho – it was established in this episode, that if someone is foolish enough to turn off the safeguards for navigation, the tardis can take them places they really shouldn’t go, such as the very end of the universe. or, apparently, even to a past gallifrey. (whether outside/inside the timelock, or in a pocket universe? who can say?) that the daleks appear not to have this ability (or the precision of the tardis coordination system) is a good thing for the continued existence of our protagonist!

    in short, clara could go there, because the tardis knows the way, and the safeguards for navigation were turned off by her idiot…

    🙂

    #31602
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Omg omg omg let loose the dogs of speculative bonkerising.

    What a incredible episode taking us all back to the hide behind the sofa to watch Who days. Or in this case pull your legs up on the sofa and hold them.

    Jenna’s performance was outstanding, as was Cappalidi’s.

    As to further thoughts they definitely need a re watching before I can make any coherent thoughts and bonkerisining.

    #31603
    geoffers @geoffers

    @handles – i think you got the name from a post earlier in this thread. i remember seeing it, as well. but it’s just a mistake of hearing, as someone also misheard the doctor introduce orson as “awesome pink.” it’s one reason (of many) that i re-watch every episode at least three times. you simply can’t catch everything first or second go around, because the writers are so darned good at what they do! (or, the sound people are terrible at what they do!)

    also, it’s established that clara has been in the doctor’s time stream, so she wouldn’t necessarily bugger up his past in an obvious way, as she’s been in it many times to try to save him. what or how much of that he “remembers” is purely speculative, but i think the scene in tonight’s episode revealed (for me, anyway) that he does make a connection to her, that he previously had not (or only suspected). either because it was a foggy childhood memory, or he simply didn’t have all the proper information yet, to do so, i can’t say. but i think seeing the toy soldier at that moment, and hearing her talk to rupert, lit up that bulb of recognition in the doctor’s ever-calculating mind…

    🙂

    #31604
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    By the way do not whatever you do watch this episode listen ending with high fidelity stereo headphones on it scared the bejezums out of me lol.

    #31605
    Anonymous @

    @geoffers – Yes multiple watches are always required.  I never stop at 3, that is what make DW so great.

    One last note on the time line systems.  We both arrive at the same place in complete agreement using both systems.  We both agree now that the Doctor got both the Dan, the soldier man and ‘fear and superpowers’ lines from Clara.

    🙂

     @Pufferfish – Nice cameo in this episode.  😆

    #31606
    geoffers @geoffers

    a general musing…

    what was on the other side of that door, at the end of the universe? was it something/someone the doctor recognized? or was it something/someone that took him completely by surprise? (didn’t ten take martha there, too, at one point? or was it eleven and amy? i think the doctor has been to that same “end” of everything a few times!)

    was it something “real,” like an adversary, or a different version of himself, even? (lol, or river in an impossible astronaut suit?!) or was it something metaphysical, like the light you (supposedly) see as you’re dying? (as they were at the very end of the universe, and time, could missy’s heaven/paradise still exist then, or beyond?)

    i wonder if we will get an answer, later in the series. that wound on the doctor’s head looked like it was inflicted by someone/something, but perhaps he was just bonked by something flying about due to the decompression of the room? he was certainly rescued by orson quite easily, so it was a pretty feeble attempt to kill him, if it was indeed someone trying to do so. the creature from ‘midnight’ or the thing from ‘the satan pit’ would (presumably) have possessed his mind, had it been one of those…

    cheers!

    #31607
    geoffers @geoffers

    @devilishrobby – that is, indeed, how i watch each episode!! there’s so much detail you miss, if you don’t block out distracting noises like fans, and computers, and roommates!

    did everyone catch the broken glass sound, just after clara mistakenly calls danny “rupert,” in the restaurant? no one reacted, which i thought was odd. usually, all eyes in a restaurant look for the source of misfortune when a glass is broken, or some plates crash to the floor. but, it could just be the writers (or sound people) being clever…

    of course, no one seemed to react when a man in a spacesuit walked in from the kitchen, either! 🙂

    #31608
    Anonymous @

    @geoffers – I was ready to see all those ghosts the Doctor was saying were out there.  That makes sense to me. If you believe ghost come from dead people, then there should be more ghosts when everyone is dead. 🙂

    10 wore the same space suit as Orson.  11 went far into the future with Clara in Hide (don’t know if it was the end). 

    We need to get some explanation about the Listen on the chalk board, IMO.  I don’t know if we will see outside the door or under the blanket though.  I think there was something there at all of the places.  Clara grabbed the boy Doctor’s foot, but that doesn’t explain why he was crying and affraid before she got there.  Same with Rupert.  I think the monsters were real.

    Sweet Dreams Everyone 😯

    #31609
    TheatreGuy @theatreguy

    @barnable I think the young doctor was crying and afraid because he didn’t want to join the army and he couldn’t join the academy (at least that’s what I gleaned from the two older voices)

    #31610
    Anonymous @

    @theatreguy –  That is probably right too.   I took it as the typical things parents say, when children are afaid at bedtime.   They know that there are no such thing as monsters really, so they think of some other reason to explain it.  But, I believe both reasons could be true.   The monsters could have been the real reason for cryinging still.  I like it better that way.  I want monsters to exist in the world of DW,  that’s why I watch it.  🙂

    #31611
    Mudlark @mudlark

    That was Moffat at his terrifying best and I pity any parents of young children trying to get their offspring off to sleep last night.  These days there isn’t much that scares me but it featured a recurrent nightmare which I had when I was aged three or four* and which I can still recall vividly: not a monster under the bed but the monster under a blanket, though in my case the blanket was cream-coloured not red, and it was always ahead of me on the footpath or halfway down the stairs, lying in wait.  After that it took a while for my heart rate to return to normal.

    Apart from the primeval scare factor, there was so much to relish and some time-looping which was truly elegant and satisfying, like the resolution of an equation in maths.  It is good, also, that we are now being shown Clara, not only as a more rounded individual but taking an increasingly active, even leading part in the Doctor’s life, rather than just being told of her crucial role with only minimal evidence to back it up (the girl born to save the Doctor).  Perhaps she is even responsible for him becoming the Doctor in the first place, if her calming of his childhood fears gives him the courage and determination to qualify for entry to the Academy and thus to become a timelord.  If so this is Clara prime doubling as a  claricle.

    I may have further thoughts after a second viewing but in the meantime

    Doctor:  What if no one is ever alone?  What if every single living being has a companion; a silent passenger; a shadow?

    Clara:  How long have you been travelling alone?

    Doctor:  Perhaps I never have.

    May I refer you to the last paragraph of post no. 31409 in the RoS thread.

    (Wanders off nonchalantly, looking not in the least smug)

     

    * This and other dreams I can recall from that time can be dated fairly closely because we left the house where I had them when I was four.

    #31613
    SkywalkerWho @skywalkerwho

    @geoffers

    – it was established in this episode, that if someone is foolish enough to turn off the safeguards for navigation, the tardis can take them places they really shouldn’t go, such as the very end of the universe. or, apparently, even to a past gallifrey. (whether outside/inside the timelock, or in a pocket universe? who can say?) that the daleks appear not to have this ability (or the precision of the tardis coordination system) is a good thing for the continued existence of our protagonist!

    in short, clara could go there, because the tardis knows the way, and the safeguards for navigation were turned off by her idiot…

    If it’s that easy to find Gallifrey, what are stopping the Daleks to just turn off their navigation safeguards or find someone with a telepathic connection to some random Time Lord or even a regular Gallifreyan so they can hop to a pre-Time War Gallifrey? Unless, it will be explained later (or this has been already a part of the mythology, as I haven’t watched that many Classic Who episodes) that it is dangerous or it is not easy to travel to these forbidden parts of the fourth dimension… though I doubt Moffat will address this plot hole he introduced in the current storyline.

    @handles

    – Hello and Welcome to you too. Sorry for not saying that earlier.

    You have a legitamate arguement. I can’t argue with the logic of it. But you are using logic to find ways that the story does not work. If you succeed in your efforts all you will acheive in the end is, you will no longer want to watch the show.

    With the same logic you could be looking for arguements that make the story work. If you succeed in doing that then you get to enjoy a brilliant TV show, for as long as it lasts.

    Before this specific plot point, I actually enjoyed this episode. I find all of Moffat’s episode that deals with time travel in a mind-f**cking way like Blink and Day to be exciting. It’s just it’s him who introduced the plot point that Gallifrey cannot be easily accessed and found, and then almost a year and five episodes later it’s the same man who introduced this plot point who ignores it.

    I don’t blame Moffat that much though. He’s a fan of the show since he was a kid and maybe he has already made this story in hopes that someday he will be part of the show… but by the time that happens, RTD got there first and all the stuff about Time War and time lock was already part of the show’s canon.

    #31615
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    A wonderful episode, and probably encapsulates in a nutshell why I value SM in the role and his writing. He can wrong foot an audience so completely. It was brilliant watching that at obscure o’clock in the morning, when you’re beginning to get that slightly whoozy hallucinogenic effect anyway. I found I’d subconsciously drawn my legs up so I was sitting cross legged on the Sofa. 🙂

    The misadventures and misunderstandings of the Date were fun enough, but SM is a past master at that sort of thing. I like how Clara’s empathic nature came to the fore again. Her distraction at the phone call leads her to “Rupert” and we see some of his background (as well as an ambiguous scare (which is often all the more frightening). Perhaps she helps form the Danny of the future. A soldier without a gun. The bravest, and perhaps what Danny dreamed of. The Soldier who is proud of digging wells to succour people, and who weeps for the dead. Parallels with the Doctor?

    The Gallifrey intervention was inspired. Her empathic nature again. While linked to the telepathic circuits her concern is with the Doctor, and the TARDIS responds. I found it interesting that she appears to have difficulty separating her hands at that point. Perhaps the TARDIS thought – “oooh – we really shouldn’t be here”. The circular nature of that advice given was cheekily timey wimey and brilliant for it.

    A snapshot of the Doctors early life – the lonely little child. The one who ran from the time vortex. The outsider, sleeping outside and with apparently little chance of becoming a Time Lord. The underachiever. One of the most powerful beings in all of Time and Space who, we learn, thrives on fear and confronting his. Fear is his superpower. Lovely. Like The Doctor’s Wife beforehand, this was a flashback that presented something that just gave a small spin to established lore.

    Lots to digest and a second watch is definitely on the cards tomorrow. Just lovely to see such an assured and different episode.

    Huzzah!

    #31616
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @herisson Hello and welcome, I hope you have a great time here.
    The original name of Missy is something that is considered a spoiler here. You are free to talk about it on the spoilers thread. I wish I hadn’t known.
    The discussions in the episode threads are made up by content that is shown on television only.

    @Mods @phaseshift @fatmaninabox @craig and so on, could you edit that small bit out?

    #31617
    WhoGirl @whogirl

    I was utterly flabbergasted after last night’s episode! My head hurt and I was more confused than ever, but I knew it was damn good. I’m usually fairly good at following SM stories, but last night I was beaten!

    It got to the point where I thought Danny was the Master! The scene featuring the boy in bed in the shed, and the mention of Time Lords, I presumed Clara was meeting a Danny from the past and somehow he was going to be the Master before regenerating into Danny at some point. Lord knows where I cooked that up from!! My sister looked at me like I was going mad when I told her! 😛

    I need to rewatch this to fully appreciate it and sort my head out (although some of your comments have helped, I thank you.) The scene with the thing under the blanket on the bed really spooked me- thank God I don’t have a gap under my bed or I wouldn’t have slept last night!!

    #31619
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    Hi @timeloop (and I’ll include @herisson)

    We already have a couple of mentions of Missy’s title on the forums, and they’ve remained because when Michelle Gomez was cast the BBC made the unusual decision to include it in the press release. So it’s allowed under Forum rules (Official BBC sources don’t count as spoilers).

    It’s possibly worth dwelling that the title attributed to her is a piece of misdirection and designed merely to promote bonkers speculation. I have no idea what a Nethersphere is, and like the “Promised Land” moniker, things aren’t always as they appear in BBC press releases. Think of the official photo for A good man goes to War. A bunch of Cybermen (who appeared for a few minutes pre-credits).

    It has been especially hard this series to keep track of what is, and isn’t, official. It makes dealing with plot lines look easy. 😀

    #31620
    thommck @thommck

    @bluesqueakpip I had to smile when you mentioned that the name Rupert means “bright”. When I realised Danny wasn’t his real name that was the first thing I looked up to see if Rupert was significant! I didn’t realise the connection to the meaning of Clara. Very interesting.

    @skywalkerwho We know the Doctor is connected to the barn but I don’t think we have ever been told the barn was on Gallifrey.

    Orson knew his great grandparent told stories of time travel but we know from what the doctor said earlier that Orson was one of the first earthlings to do so.

    I think this could mean he is related to the Doctor/Susan more than Clara.

    Also, I had to laugh when we saw the Doctor drinking the coffee at the orphanage. He must’ve really freaked out the caretaker!

    #31621
    Serahni @serahni

    I am about to watch this again on my iPad in bed before attempting to go to sleep.  I feel this might be a huge mistake but we shall see!

    Also, on an entirely different note, I wanted to thank you all for being fantastic contributors to bonkers theorising rather than getting weighed down in the constant negativity some fans seem to thrive on.  I had to unsubscribe to Doctor Who on Facebook, I couldn’t take it anymore.  XD

    Wish me luck!

    #31622
    Cath Annabel @cathannabel

    Well, that was fantastic.  Genuinely creepy.  Reminded me a lot of something Stephen King said about how when we’re grown-ups we know there’s no monster under the bed, and we also know that if we get on to and off the bed quickly enough the monster under the bed can’t get us….  And he knows a bit about such things.

    Haven’t worked out what I think yet about Rupert/Danny/Orson etc (and what about the Blue chappie from Into the Dalek? Does he/how does he fit in?).

    I’m persuaded tho that the boy in the barn was the Doctor, not the Master.  I didn’t interpret the adults in that scene as parents though, rather as the people in charge of some kind of Time Lord prep school?

    Someone on Reddit (a place I do not go but I know those who do) apparently has said that the ‘fear makes companions of us all’ speech is said (or something like it) by Hartnell’s Doc.  I can’t verify that but I’m sure someone here will track it down if so!

    That’s it for now.  No time to re-watch, have got a train to catch.  And may not get much chance to revisit these discussions let alone contribute before next week’s ep, sadly.  I will however be in unfamiliar hotel rooms in rather creaky old hotels over the next few days…  I’m sure there’ll be nothing under the bed, nothing at all…

    Have fun all!

    And listen…  don’t breathe …. don’t hold your breath – and of course, don’t blink.

    #31623
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @chickenelly Moffat got his budget cut? Reason?

    @juniperfish Hello you! Still not well? It’s about time you kick that thing in the b***.  Yeah, I’d also say it’s been ‘Dad skills’ -we also know what he did. He did it to himself in Deep Breath, remember?

    @jimbomcmaster We will have to wait and see if he is still bothered by those questions. He definitely accepted Claras instructions.
    ‘This of course confirms definitely without doubt that the Doctor is Danny Pink’s dad.’ How? I disagree.
    Regarding not telling the Doctor: Clara knew she had done a big no-no. She is not supposed to be there. At all. This knowledge could change his character, changing his way in life. It’s a very sensible time for the Doctor and maybe made him what he is. Any knowledge could change him and the way he behaves.

    @bluesqueakpip Danny Pink could also refer to his grandma not being well with family stuff.
    Rupert is German for ‘Bright, Famous, Shining’? Shouldn’t I know that name then? Never heard of Rupert, the only Rupert I know is Rupert Grint so I thought it would be a British name. I went digging a bit and found out that it is a version of the name Robert or Ruprecht (both of which I have heard)… just some trivia I guess…
    I agree that ancronyms can be a bit bothersome with over 50 years of history and content.
    @bluesqueakpip @fatmaninabox I do think it is the same building. The ceilings where high in the barn and it could have been used differently when the Doctor was a child. It’s also not a complete second level, just a small part to stack hay, apparently.
    We also don’t know how much time has passed now and then (the Doctor fought quite a while in the Time War). Climate change ;D So maybe the land looked very different back then…

    @serahni I first thought it was awesome too!
    In regards to your broken brain: In the video @wolfweed posted Jenna Coleman refers to it as a Moff-circle. (Whats first the chicken or the egg? Another example is the fez.)

    @pedant ‘But more significantly this is the second time (at least) that Clara has very specifically stated that she does want to know when she dies (and to a Sontaran 12 years is a good innings).’ She said ‘which I do not need a preview of. So it’s the opposite to what you thought, isn’t it?

    @purofilion So what do you think?

    @saraoswald101 What confused you?
    And Clara could go to Gallifrey (or as @thommck said, is it even Gallifrey) because the Doctor turned off the safeguards.

    @fletchthe2nd We don’t know. Left open.

    @whogirl I am also one of the lucky ones where there is no space under the bed.

    @phaseshift @herisson Okay, my appologies then. I do think it is a bit revealing. Nethersphere is a lot more straight forward than Promised land – makes me think of Hades.

    I hope I forgot nobody. Keep you theories coming =D

    #31624

    Courtesy of @timeloop let’s try that again and, this time, remember to include all of the words in the first sentence. Pah, Late night posting…

    But more significantly this is the second time (at least) that Clara has very specifically stated that she does not want to know when she dies (and to a Sontaran 12 years is a good innings).’

    So either something very bad is going to happen to Clara or Moffat is going “LOOK OVER THERE!! LOOK OVER THERE!! LOOK OVER THERE!! LOOK OVER THERE!!” before blindsiding us.

    Wild stab in the dark: what happens to Clara is the reason the Doc runs off with Susan.

    #31625

    @cathannabel

    Haven’t worked out what I think yet about Rupert/Danny/Orson etc (and what about the Blue chappie from Into the Dalek? Does he/how does he fit in?).

    I think it would be beyond awesome and funny if that was put in for no other reason that to yank @juniperfish‘s chain.

    #31626
    Rob @rob

    Rupert

    Is a name used to describe young naive officers in the army

    or slightly more Moffety

    The dummy paratroops dropped on D-day as a decoy

    #31628
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @pedant – what do we know about Missy’s Heaven?

    You have to die to go there. Die by sacrificing yourself for others, at the instigation of the Doctor. Yeah – I think Clara-from-Blackpool, like all the Claricles, is destined for a short life. She’ll die trying to save the Doctor. Or to save something for the Doctor.

    However, merely being dead doesn’t suggest Clara won’t be taking any further part in events. Rory died more times than Kenny, and River was living a busy and active post-death life. Donna got saved.

    Moffat has form on this sort of stuff. 😉

    @cathannabel – yes, the adult couple didn’t really have the feel of ‘parents’, and the references to the other boys hints that this is a pre-Academy prep school. The Tennant Doctor talks about young Time Lords being sent to the Academy at, eight, was it? Young, anyway.

    And the option of ‘Academy or Army’ has a bit of an upper-class feel about it. It would also explain why the Doctor has always had this rather low opinion of the military – in his world, joining the army was the option for those who’d failed to become Time Lords. Soldiers were the dimbos. 🙂

    #31629
    HisDreamer @hisdreamer

    Hi all,

    Would the cloister bell ringing as they were looking over the Doctor (bringing him inside from Col Pink’s craft) mean that whatever is the ‘hidden’ entity is malignant?

    Long been a fan of this terrific forum, just now feeling brave enough to ask a question. Everyone is so well grounded in Who lore, it’s quite intimidating. Thankfully everyone is most kind and patient with the new ones 🙂

    #31630
    wolfweed @wolfweed

    Which came first – The chicken or the fez?
     
    In the Douglas Adams book ‘Mostly Harmless’, the planet ‘Persephone’ (Queen of the Underworld) is renamed ‘Rupert’…
    z
    The triple Doctor…
     
    If I end up watching one more vid review saying this story has a bad plot I shall provide them with a plot – a burial plot…

    #31631
    FredVelvet @fredvelvet

    Hi there everyone, new user here.

    Really liked Listen, the trailers led us to believe that this would be a full-on scary episode, Son of Blink even. Though it had its proper scary moments, particularly the monster under the blanket , it was something quite different.  I liked how the story didn’t go where you might expect, not as in there was a major plot twist, perhaps more in that they didn’t investigate what the Blanket Monster was, or resolve any threat or reveal what they were.  Loved how some of the fears were real, some were just inside people’s heads and some we just didn’t know.

    I’ve been increasingly frustrated reading the view that the Tardis shouldn’t be able to land on Gallifrey because it’s time-locked. As far as I recall the only mention of Gallifrey being time-locked was in “The Day of the Doctor”, when the 10th Doctor says “These events should be time-locked” – the events being the Time War and using the Moment. I don’t think it’s ever stated or implied that Gallifrey is  time-locked for its entire history.  Please correct me I’m wrong, it’s quite possible I may have missed something along the line.

    #31633
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @skywalkerwho – I think the reason the Daleks can’t just leap into Gallifrey’s past is that they’ve never been inside the time-line of a Time Lord. Clara has. Clara can go anywhere in the Doctor’s time-line up to the date specified in The Name of The Doctor (that is, his original future of dying at Trenzalore).

    It’s interesting; the implication we’re meant to pick up is that the TARDIS took them to young Rupert Pink because Clara got distracted by thinking of Danny. But when Clara’s left the TARDIS, is outside the TARDIS, the TARDIS takes the Doctor to Orson Pink. And we’re given a possible explanation; Orson is connected to Clara because he’s her descendent.

    But the actual connection is between Danny Pink, his possible-descendent Orson, and the Doctor. Clara is the messenger who takes the soldier brave enough to not carry a gun back to the young Doctor.

    Moffat likes to take television practices and use them as something real-world. Now, we’re all presuming Orson is a descendent because he’s got a different name to Rupert/Danny. And the TV practice of using the same actor to play a grandparent/grandchild encourages that.

    But what if he’s not Danny’s grandchild? What if, like Clara, he’s a Claricle – a Danicle, as I think I’ve said before. Consider: Clara is either Clara Oswald, Miss Montague or Oswin Oswald (from her nickname). Danny Pink is Rupert Pink, Danny Pink – and Orson Pink? Kai Blue?

    Clara always has a mother – does Danny always have a sister? Journey Blue seemed to only have an uncle. No parents. Young Rupert’s in a Children’s Home. No parents. Yet he has ‘family stuff’.

    The argument against the Danicle idea is that the soldier is a family heirloom.

    Oh, and one odd point, given the religious imagery in Robots of Sherwood. The modern Doctor in the armed forces is not a combatant, but does carry a gun to protect themselves and their patients. The one soldier who’s generally ‘brave enough to not carry a gun’ is the chaplain.

    So which soldier is our Doctor? Is he the medic – or is he the priest? Does he make people better physically? Or is his job to make people better? 😉

    #31635

    Orson

    Of course, they missed a trick by not calling the bedspread monster Mork…

    Actually…, given a Moff trope…

    #31637
    FiveFaces @fivefaces

    @geoffers I’m caught the breaking glass sound just as Clara called Danny ‘Rupert’. I don’t think that’s a coincidence, and my bet is that we are going to revisit that date scene later in a time-wimey sort of way, where someone is watching Danny and Clara, and drops their glass at that precise moment in shock (but cannot figure out why someone would be so surprised at Clara calling Danny ‘Rupert’.

    If it is the Doctor in bed in the barn, for some reason I got the distinct impression that he was in a kind of Gallifreyan children’s home (a bit like Rupert Pink). It was the way the women asked him to come and sleep in the house with the other children. But maybe it could be a boarding school. I wonder if the Doctor was an orphan?

    Hiding under the bed: made me think of clockwork robots from The Girl in the Fireplace. Maybe that will tie in with the story arc?

    #31644

    @smeglennon

    You’re not very good at concise, are you?

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