On The Sofa (9)

[Missy @missy]

@nerys

Thank you  for that, but I meant this last series. I knew about the above, as I always looked to see who wrote an episode and who directed.

Rachel Talahay is an excellent director, and I wondered whether CC had written anything for her to direct.

Whilst here, can anyone tell me why Steven Moffat should feel the need to apologise for his new improved Daleks? They were wonderful.

Everything evolves doesn’t it even the sex of the Doctor,  (apparently) so why not a new look Dalek. Granted they made the old ones look small, but I thought that was the point?

It wasn’t a mistake, and he didn’t need to apologise in my opinion.

What say you?

Missy

[Anonymous @]

@missy – None of the previous directors were used in Series 11.  I agree with you about Talalay’s obvious, massive talent, and at first I was shocked that Chibnall wouldn’t want to use her.  But, then again, she directed the last three Who outings before S11, and the viewing numbers weren’t great.  So I can see why they went ahead without her.  I certainly can’t argue with it.

I wish I could remember what Moffat said on a DVD extra about the new paradigm Daleks and their size.  He gave a cogent reason why the Doctor should be taller than the Daleks, but I just can’t remember what it was.  Anyone else see it and remember better?

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

Final ratings

( @craig – I cannot for the life of me work out how to get this to embed. Is there some secret -lace to get embed code that actually works?)

[Craig @craig Emperor]

@pedant

While Youtube embeds automatically, you have to click “More” (the down arrow) on Twitter and then use the Embed Tweet code (in the text version of the editor). Like this:

Final series averages for the whole modern show. #DoctorWho #ratings pic.twitter.com/4lu6h7qkKS

— Deep and crisp and Iain (@iainjclark) December 17, 2018

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@thane16 @idiotsavon @mudlark @ichabod

On a slightly more constructive direction that trying to get Twitter to work, this is a very interesting insight from a self-confessed newbie.:

Five reasons Doctor Who is the most interesting speculative series on television in 2018

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@pedant

That is a great reflection by Lisa Morton.

[nerys @nerys]

@pedant Thank you for sharing that! Lisa Morton makes a very good case for why she was not a Whovian before, but is now. I wholeheartedly agree with her five points.

[Missy @missy]

@kevinwho

Well, it just shows you that bad viewing numbers says more about the watchers than the stories – HEAVEN SENT for example? *shakes head*

Perhaps CC did ask Rachel and she decided against it. After her comments about SM being a genius (which I agree with ) she may have considered working for CC as a bit of a come down. *grins*

Then again, as you say, he didn’t ask – out of his class perhaps? Oh I really do not like the man, does it show?

anyway, here is most of it:

It was one of the most controversial moments in recent Doctor Who history. In Victory of the Daleks, Matt Smith’s third episode, the copper coloured Daleks that had been a fixture of the show since its reboot in 2005 were replaced by brightly coloured models, dubbed the ‘New Paradigm’.
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It’s fair to say that they never really caught on with fans – some dismissing them as ‘Teletubbies’ or ‘Power Rangers’. Now showrunner Steven Moffat has admitted the change was a “mistake”.

“Well I suppose if I’m completely honest – and it’s all my fault, no one else’s fault – I don’t think that was a great idea,” he told an audience at London’s Doctor Who Festival. “When I looked at them in person I thought ‘my god, the new Daleks are awesome. they’re so huge and powerful, they’re brilliant.’”

“But I learned a grave lesson: which is that when you put them on screen, of course, they don’t look bigger, they just make all the other Daleks look smaller.” 
<div class=”fluid-width-video-wrapper”><iframe id=”714690336″ src=”https://www.youtube.com/embed/p6Zt7oTzHDw?feature=oembed&enablejsapi=1&origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.radiotimes.com” frameborder=”0″ allowfullscreen=”” data-gtm-yt-inspected-2613561_94=”true”></iframe></div>
Well, they caught on with me, and everyone who saw them.

Missy

[Missy @missy]

@nerys

Allowing for by biased views on a female Doctor, I Read the article, and every point she made applies to each of the previous Doctors?

More likely she preferred a female Doctor, and that’s all right, but all the attributes mentioned can also be said of the first four males(2005)

Missy

[Anonymous @]

@missy – That’s it, that’s the quote!  Funny, it seemed a lot more convincing when I heard him say it.  Just written like that, not so much.

My issue with that episode isn’t the Daleks, but Spitfires in space.  Since in reality, all they’d do is sit unable to move, propellers with nothing to push against while their air-breathing engines and pilots suffocated…

As to Rachel Talalay, I think she’s in her own way a genius too, and I’d be thrilled to watch something she’s directed.  Heaven Sent is a masterpiece!  But since I watch nothing but Who, home improvement shows and the weather, I think I’m out of luck.

[Craig @craig Emperor]

And another little Christmas card from the good people at Doctor Who:

To get you in the festive spirit! 🎅🎄 #DoctorWho pic.twitter.com/kqZpesvq8m

— Doctor Who Official (@bbcdoctorwho) December 18, 2018

[syzygy @thane16]

@craig

Thank you! Also, ‘I seen you been busy’ (behind the scenes).

Also, I have to read your script/screenplay.

Lovely jubbly!

Puro and Thane

 

[winston @winston]

@craig    Thank you, that was very cute.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@craig

I know we are at the end of a series, when contributions slow down, but it does seem that the activity on the site has slowed down considerably in comparison to what it used to be like.

I am not entirely sure why this should be so, but this site has been running for a number of years, and we have had so many regular contributors who, alas, are no longer contributing.

I do not think it is the current season, as those that used to be part of the regular community were united, not simply by a particular response to a given Doctor or series, but by a love and quite often a prodigious knowledge of the show from its origins on.

Let me just say, in the hope that they are still online, that it would be wonderful to hear again from

@phaseshift

@scaryb

@wolfweed

@fatmaninabox

@whohar

and so many others that the Blenkinsop brain is failing (for so many reasons) to remember.

And to others, still active, who can add to the list, please do. It would be great to hear from the lost (or perhaps just resting) voices.

[ClarkKent1967 @clarkkent1967]

Hi Everyone,

I have been a die hard Whovian since 1980 and I started watching repeats of the old series in America on the odd channels when I could and I have enjoyed every iteration of the show since. The current reboot from Eccleston forward has been for me the golden age of the show.

This is the first time I have joined any chat group and I have done so totally because of the writing direction that the current version of The Doctor is producing. There is zero love for the fan base on the current staff. The zest and zeal that has been ever present since the reboot was gone this whole season with Jodie Whittaker and I do not blame her or the rest of the cast the whole blame to me lies squarely on the writing staff.

Have they even watched the old series or just wing it? I was so tremendously psyched to see Jodie in this role and her acting along with everybody else has been up to the task of the scripts but those have been about as far off the mark as it could possibly get, that is just my take on it. Which is why I joined I would like to know what my fellow Whovians think of this? Please I would like to hear a reply

[Anonymous @]

Well,I’m not a very regular contributor because I find it difficult to write long posts since my stroke last year. I have been (and remain) a fan since the reboot and, although I can see where you are coming from when you criticize the writing of the new series @clarkkent1967 I must admit I have found plenty in it to like.

I do agree that Moffat can be a writer of genius but it does seem to me that during the Capaldi era (not a criticism of Capaldi by the way) he served up a number of episodes that simply didn’t appeal to me and that I don’t particularly want to watch again including (lowers voice to a whisper) ‘Heaven Sent’. All I can say is that I concur with Bluesqueakpip absolutely with that one.

As I say I am a fan and have kept watching, and enjoying wherever I could (especially the humour) but I think the show had become a little too self referential, a little too bogged down in it’s own mythology and, perhaps, a little too dark. I suspect the general public may have felt the same.

Therefore it has been a relief to see the show almost rebooted under Chibnall. Yes. there is a spark of humour missing. Yes I think the characters of the companions (not ‘fam’, please) could have been slightly different. I think ,using the same actors,

Ryan could have been played slightly younger, more of a brash teenager, a bit of a loose cannon, more like the boy who rushed at the sniperbots, all guns blazing,and then had to beat a hasty retreat. Yaz could have been played a bit older (I believe the actress is nearly thirty) an experienced police officer, brave and resourceful but also perhaps slightly inflexible, protocol bound. But it’s easy to offer re-writes from the sidelines and these are Chibnall’s characters, not mine.

But on the whole it’s been good to concentrate on the plots, with not too much backstory or existential angst.

Lots more I want to say but my brain hurts now!

 

[syzygy @thane16]

@clarkkent1967

I think @margaret-blaine above had some excellent points.

One of the things I found useful when joining was reading as many posts as possible -to get a sense of the site, its posters, academic or not, those who are published writers or not, involved with music as a career, or with experience in acting and script-writing.  Over the 4-5 years I’ve been here (and this too was my first forum) I have learned some incredible concepts from people such as @bluesqueakpip @pedant @craig @blenkinsopthebrave @mudlark @idiotsavon @miapatrick and @arbutus (and many, many more).

For me to comment in detail now would be repetitive But I’ll do it anyway!). Perhaps, seek out my own responses from each episode as well as those above. I believe the writers have done exactly what was asked of them: a complete re-boot for a new era. An era that is marked by people like ‘M’ki….” (I shall not tag the whole person but you’ll get the gist) who has displayed tactics of medieval hatred mixed with illiteracy and venom.

But enough about that: to me, it’s a fresh, productive era, with many internal metaphors focussing on us as monsters -and when you read the venom, these aren’t fictional, unfortunately. A little bit like Buffy, where the ‘heroes’ have survived high school (the real monsters) and its complex sea of difficulties.

But despite the monsters within, our greatest contribution as a race, as humans, is redemption through grace. It was the fundamental principle around which the series was re-booted. It needed no arc beyond that. That they take different forms with each show-runner is the greatest but most subtle praxis or embodiment offered to new writers with a different set of ideas. To have continued in the vein of RTD or Moffat would have been a mistake, in my opinion. The show has revived some of its traditional fan base (again, see the other posts) and incorporated quite rightly -and necessarily -those viewers, and their personal interests in the series.

Children, mainly girls, are entranced and enchanted by the ‘gabby doctor’ -talking, explaining; rather than reacting with superior nonchalance as was often the case with previous Doctors even in the current era (AG). This Doctor co-exists with humans better than any Doctor before her. The idea fixee, if you will, is her completeness, sans the depression or angst from another set of regenerations. She’s confident, respects the ideals of humanity and stands by every element and precept of that Doctor whom we still recognise: encompassing all that is good and holding steadfastly to her personal creed:

never be cruel, nor cowardly, never give in, never give up.

In the end I repeated myself anyway! Timey whimey. 🙂  But a sincere welcome to your first Forum. Perhaps scan some  posts? @bluesqueakpip @kevinwho and @pedant have recently written blogs regarding the series – well worth a read.

Kindest, Puro.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 9 months ago by  syzygy. Reason: accidentally making clarkkent 30 years younger: timey whimey

[syzygy @thane16]

@blenkinsopthebrave

I recall discussing this exact point with you too -last year, actually!  I sensed a change but I do feel there are new posters with inclinations toward writing, editing and bonkerising with aplomb 🙂

I also thought, independently of you (clearly timey whimey), about chickenelly, thomck (sp) tardisblue? But others have returned : @rob @arbutus @cathannabel -these posters also present wonderful insights for you to read @clarkkent1967, btw.

Puro

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@clarkkent1967

Hello. My name is pedant and I will be your bad cop today.

Two things:

1. What @margaret-blaine and @thane16 said;

2. Be very careful using phrases like:

There is zero love for the fan base on the current staff.

Have they even watched the old series or just wing it?

They make you look silly and entitled, since about 30 seconds on Youtube would lead you to discover that Chris Chibnall is not only a fan, but one who was very much engaged with fan debate during the era that you found Who. Obvious twaddle is obvious. But I’m not your mum so do your own searching.

There are a couple of things you must grasp if you want to come across … not whiney:

First, although Doctor Who is one of BBC’s most valuable assets, it is also very expensive for a resource constrained body like the Beeb to make. The impact of this is to govern the Beeb’s appetite for risk when the fanbase is ageing (as well as giving it many envious enemies with the BBC, which has always been the case).

Second, most of the things you are complaining about come from above the showrunner for this specific reason. They absolutely must broaden the fan base beyond those massively invested in and obsessed with the cruft the show has accrued over the decades.

Finally, for an insight into why some of your turns of phrase will get people bristling, and precisely how you can deal with that read this: On joy. I am reliably assured that the author is devilishly handsome.

 

[syzygy @thane16]

@pedant regarding the ‘net.  Unfortunately in this case I’m Josh. “Outranked.”

 

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@thane16

Being familiar with the context really helps. It is very much Donna who makes that scene complete. Not a single word. Just there. A lesser writer wouldn’t have done that.

[ClarkKent1967 @clarkkent1967]

And so it goes.

The reason I have never joined a chat group before.

Instead of a polite discourse about disagreeing with as I stated “My opinion” statement and maybe countering with a “In my opinion” reply and express a difference from which maybe I could glean something about the show that I am not seeing for myself and could find a joy for this season/doctor that I’m not feeling. Which is what I’m looking for.

No, I get a be careful using phrases or I’m whiny.  Or  I will be your bad cop today.

As I stated in my original post have been a fan for 38 years and enjoyed the show the whole time. For me this season doesn’t have the same joy that the previous years have for me and I know for me it is the stories themselves they don’t feel the same. I was and am looking for a discussion over plot wherein I can find it but go ahead feel free to treat me poorly for expressing a desire to try and find something lost  with this season.

Thanks

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@clarkkent1967

The thing with the internet is that it doesn’t always take you where you want to go. But if you let it, it will take you where you need to go.

As I stated in my original post have been a fan for 38 years

And the majority of posters here have been fans for far longer. Your point?

I was and am looking for a discussion over plot wherein I can find it

What page did you land on? If you go to the front page you will find links to every episode discussion. Asserting a view and then not getting the answer you want is not being “treated poorly” it’s “meeting reality”.

If you are looking for an echo chamber, you have landed in the wrong place. If you not, then get discussing.

 

[janetteB @janetteb]

@blenkinsopthebrave. I can only speak for myself but I have not been posting lately mostly because I am simply too busy with other obligations. It is always a busy time of year for most people I think. I have been struggling to keep up with discussions and I confess some of the arguments from new posters coming in only to express reactionary points of view are off putting. I admire those who challenge them and do so eloquently. Sadly though the spammers make real discussion difficult.

It does not help that I am behind with viewing, having just watched the penultimate episode last night, because there always seems to be something happening at night or my S/O is occupied with other things and we watch the new episodes together. Hopefully after Christmas I will have time to catch up with the discussions.

cheers

Janette

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@clarkkent1967

I didn’t find much joy in Peter Capaldi’s tenure, myself – but that was because I didn’t much like his interpretation of the Doctor. However, I did and do like Peter Capaldi the actor, and I would never say that he hadn’t thoroughly researched his role, or that the performance he selected wasn’t based on characteristics that you can find in a) previous Doctors or b) the scripts he had.

That I, in my opinion, didn’t like the way he played the Doctor doesn’t mean he had zero respect for the ‘fan base’. He just went in a direction I didn’t like. He didn’t feel the same as other Doctors. I never really saw him as ‘The Doctor’ – I saw him as someone trying to be ‘The Doctor’.

So if you’re saying that the stories don’t ‘feel the same’, then yes, fine – you don’t have to like them. Being a fan doesn’t mean you have to like every single Doctor or every single Producer. It’s a pain when you lose that joy, that sense of ‘Oh, no! I’m not going to be back in time for Doctor Who!’ – and it gets replaced by ‘Well, I’ll watch it when I have a moment’ But what you have to look at is – are other people enjoying what you dislike? The answer for me was – yup. Other people on this site adored Capaldi’s performance. They see him as one of the great Doctors.

And, with this series, the viewing figures are up, people are really loving the Whittaker Doctor, and we can point at certain things and say ‘Ah ha! Clearly Chibnall has been paying attention to stories like The Aztecs.’ I think this first Whittaker/Chibnall series was a bit wobbly at the beginning, was hitting its stride by the end, and was generally something I enjoyed. I quite like looking for emotional and moral arcs, so that particular new direction is fine with me.

And other people don’t like the new direction. So it goes. There’ll be another producer along in a few years, and there’s fifty odd years of previous programmes to watch if we really can’t stand the new style.

The reason you got picked up on the (hopefully rhetorical) ‘have they even watched the old series?’ was that it’s pretty obvious they have – at least, if you have a look at the programme threads, I think you’ll find us discussing that.

It’s also obvious that Chibnall is deliberately trying to create a ‘new generation’ of Who writers, rather than re-booking the ‘old guard’. And when you bring in a new generation of writers, the brutal fact of British television is that those writers are extremely unlikely to have had any previous experience in marrying a straight historical drama of Partition with aliens. Or adding a sci-fi element to the life story of Rosa Parks. They have indeed watched the show (and Star Trek, and Quantum Leap) – but the Doctor Who script in their heads is always tons better than the Doctor Who script on the page, because they’ve never before had to worry about translating the script in their head into actual, within schedule, within available special effects, within budget television.

It’s noticeable that the straight sci-fi and historical fantasy stories were the more confidently plotted. However, they weren’t (IMO) as good – Chibnall was right to bring in new writers, and right to include nearly pure historicals.

My ‘halfway through’ blog discussed the reasons behind the crap monsters – and I called it ‘Out of the Comfort Zone’ for a reason. I think that, at that point, a fair few members were feeling that same lack of joy you were. We’d lost the RTD/Moffat ‘big’ style, and we hadn’t quite worked out the new style. We really were out of our comfort zone.

But I think what most people who post on here have done is to try and look for the new direction, and to rediscover that joy. 🙂

[syzygy @thane16]

@pedant

Yes, context indeed helps. Prior, Donna is the one ‘made’ to type all while looking at Josh as if he’s gone crazy.

The next day Josh explodes with you wouldn’t believe this but they answered and Donna says “oh no, REALLY?” Josh replies along the lines of “You have to answer, right away. Sit down, type this” etc.

And yes, she wanders past with a faint glare. A feint. It’s nice.

@clarkkent1967 I think if you read my post above  I explained some wonderful things about the site; what I felt about the show and that it’s good to look around. I also said if you head to the Forum page and the Home page there’ll be links to every episode. It’s a very balanced discussion and I think you’ll find what you’re looking for. Some people have really enjoyed this season whilst others didn’t take to the last two years with Capaldi. I happened to have enjoyed both. I’m easy to please 🙂  So, as I said, welcome.

@janetteb I think Real Life tends to get in the way, doesn’t it? Not easy. I think Life is Busier than Ever. More news to watch, more to do, more to cook, to read, to weed….x

[Anonymous @]

@clarkkent1967 – Go look at some of the episode discussions from Season 11 here, and you’ll see others (including me) expressing much the same reservations as you (but with less apparent exasperation).  Part of what you’re running into is that we’ve had this conversation.  Then again, we’re still having it, so do go read some of what’s been said.

The one thing I’ll add atop what’s been said above is, if you look at the tone and word choices in the discussions, you’ll see that we do try to keep things calm or positive.  That’s why @pedant called out a couple of your sentences; we’re not fond of hyperbole here.  Strongly emotional wording makes rational discussion harder.

Hope that helps! -Kevin (Who?)

[Anonymous @]

@clarkkent1967  I am really sorry that you feel like this. I can only speak for myself but I truly intended no illwill and was trying to answer the question you posed at the end of your post. Sorry if anything came across in the wrong way. This is why I don’t attempt long posts nowadays because I can’t be sure I’m expressing exactly what I mean (!)

Anyway, apologies. Hope you will continue to post.

[Craig @craig Emperor]

Radio Times readers have voted for their favourite episodes this series.

Spoilers – Rosa came out top.

https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2018-12-18/doctor-who-series-11-best-episodes-ranked-fans-vote-rosa-as-best-episode-of-jodie-whittakers-first-series/

Edit: it is slightly concerning that almost every episode written by Chibnall is the public’s least favourite (although we don’t know how much he had to do with Rosa).

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

@craig I don’t know if it concerns me, personally, it certainly doesn’t surprise me. The episodes by other writers were in my opinion much better. (Though I will say that his episodes for this series are among his best work).

Rosa – it’s tempting to assume the time traveler elements were Chibnall, most of the setting the other writer, but both elements worked well together in my opinion and the good news is that he chose a team of very good writers – and as (I think @bluesqueakpip?) pointed out, show runners have tended since the reboot to dominate the script writing for the first season more than subsequent ones.

[Arbutus @arbutus]

I’ve just spent a chunk of time catching up on a couple of weeks of sofa chat that I’m really sorry to have missed. Especially the garden talk. Nothing like a good convo about things like lavender, frogs, and climate. As @winston knows, there’s nothing a Canadian likes more than a nice bitch about how hard it is to garden in zone whatever. Too hot, too cold, too wet, too dry, too windy. These are the things over which we bond.  🙂

However, comment of the month (to date) has to go to @pedant‘s succinct description of Elon Musk: He does some very cool stuff, but fuck me he’s a dickhead.

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@arbutus

*faints*

[winston @winston]

@arbutus     Forget hockey, complaining about the weather is the Canadian national sport. Right now in Ontario it is freezing rain to be followed tomorrow by warmer temps and just plain rain. No snow for Christmas this year but come January………..Brrrrr.

Another thing we bond over is food and Ukrainian food is sooo good but a lot of work. I made butter tarts yesterday and gained a few pounds just looking at them.

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

I’m just going to leave this here on the grounds that a) it is rather amusing, b) it is for a good cause and c) I am quite certain that Grace Slick would approve, since she hated the original:

[Anonymous @]

As a Russell T Davis fan, as name suggests,  I loved the David Tennant doctor and the episodes he starred in. I also enjoyed the Christopher Ecclestone series as well as the early Matt Smith episodes of the Doctor, those before the introduction of Clara Oswold on a permanent basis.  As such I’ll assume that I’m in the minority when I say that I believe the fun, enjoyment, no moral lesson episodes that provided an escape from the problems of the current day no longer exist with this franchise.  I therefore ask the following:

Am I the only one who hopes the daleks win in the forthcoming ‘Christmas Special’ ???

[Anonymous @]

@rtdfan – The degrees of enjoyment or lack thereof with any episode or period of the show varies widely on this forum; you’ll find people here who love and hate Clara, love and hate Heaven Sent, love and hate aspects of the latest series, and everything else.

The one thing we do all have in common is enjoying discussing the show.  So while no one is going to give you a hard time over finding something exasperating, you may get some grief for not giving us much to discuss.

For example, I might as well be the one to point out the Zygon Invasion and Inversion for having moral lessons, and someone who knows that period better than I will probably say something about the Cavemen, the very first story after An Unearthly Child, was about (I think) the nuclear situation of the time.  (I’ve seen the Cavemen, but confess I was so impatient to get on to an episode with aliens that I didn’t get much from it.)

So, if you want to talk about thematic shortcoming of this last series or how Thirteen doesn’t do something you feel the Doctor should, please do!  We’ll definitely get into it with you!

But “This is driving me crazy” without anything more isn’t what this forum is for.  So please put some meat on those conversational bones and let’s talk!

[Anonymous @]

Hi Folks,

Ok, meat on the bones, but before I start can I say that I haven’t mentioned hate.  I may disagree with things and dislike aspects of many things but hate is a definite feeling that I don’t feel.  When I used to watch Dr Who the episodes took me out and away from the pressures of the daily grind. They didn’t attempt to provide moral lessons or other points of political correctness that the current, and many of the recent, episodes have tried to do.  Dr Who should not be a vehicle for certain people at the BBC to project their political views. I know about the issues of coloured people in the USA and their struggle for equal rights; I know about the issues with India; I learn’t about them in school many years ago.  The BBC should not be using Dr Who to replace a lack of education in schools.

Dr Who can help with education if needed, especially with English lessons.  If you have the dvds of the new series from 1 to 8 then watch them again, listen to the descriptive words used by the different doctors to describe those unknown areas of the universe and beyond, they take you somewhere magical, somewhere where you can only dream of going.  This type of language is missing in the recent series.  Yes there was some strange language but nothing that grabbed your soul and transported you to somewhere mystical and magical.

That is what Dr Who should do for the viewer, help them escape into an adventure far removed from our normal lives or recent history.  Dr Who should not relate to factual history, there are many other vehicles for this.

This is why I hope the Daleks win, so that Chris Chibnall can go back and write more episodes of nineteenth century drama that don’t need much imagination as the basis for those types of dramas is well known.  The BBC might then find someone with a great imagination that can take us back to true Dr Who adventures.

I hope this provides the meat you are looking for without going into each individual episode since Chris Ecclestone started the new era as there are too many to discuss.

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@kevinwho

hate Clara, love and hate Heaven Sent, love and hate aspects of the latest series

There is literally nobody here who hates anything, because hate is an emotion for the juvenile.

@RTDfan

The BBC should not be using Dr Who to replace a lack of education in schools.

The BBC was founded to inform, educate and entertain and Doctor Who had an education remit from the beginning, which it has addressed with alacrity through its run, as shown in this link, *H/T to @miapatrick)

[Anonymous @]

@pedant

There is literally nobody here who hates anything, because hate is an emotion for the juvenile.

I frequently say things like “I hate the way they’re doing this!”  I grant that I’m probably being juvenile in my word choice.

@rtdfan

I haven’t mentioned hate.

You are right, and I shouldn’t have done so.  I am sorry.

[Anonymous @]

@pedant @rtdfan @everybodyelse

And a good thing I got called out for that, “hate” is a word that I need to stop using, even if casually (and, obviously, unthinkingly).  I resolve to do so.  No wish to be a hater.

[Anonymous @]

@rtdfan – Having sidetracked your discussion, I’ll try to get it back on track.

I have nothing to confirm this, but I suspect the BBC told Chibnall to make this latest series not just more accessible, but more accessible to the younger members of the families it’s meant for.  Which means that the moral lessons are still there – just off the top of my head, The Beast Below, Vincent and the Doctor, and Father’s Day certainly had moral lessons in them.

But in making the episodes more accessible for younger folks, I wonder if maybe that’s why I, at least, and perhaps you have found some aspects, including the messaging, more heavy-handed than it used to be.

Others please chime in when you have time; I know when I mentioned heavy-handed not long ago (I think here), not everyone agreed.

Then again, “not everyone agrees” is the norm here…

[JimTheFish @jimthefish Time Lord]

OK, here’s a cool thing for Christmas. Neil Gaiman talking about new apocalyptic poetry and its inspiration on him and with added Peter Capaldi reading The Magic Wood by Henry Treece. (Available for the next 29 days only).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06w8xl5

[syzygy @thane16]

@RTDfan

they took me out and away from the pressures of the daily grind. They didn’t attempt to provide moral lessons or other points of political correctness that the current, and many of the recent, episodes have tried to do. Dr Who should not be a vehicle for certain people at the BBC to project their political views.

And you loved the Tennant years? 🙂

I thought they were pretty good too!

If you don’t like moral lessons or political correctness -the latter which someone taught me means “courtesy to others who may be different or actually might be completely the same” -then I’m wondering which Tennant episodes you could  like?

It was long time ago for me: I was about 5 and then watched them again later. I don’t think you would like –

(in no particular order)

The Satan Pit

42

The Christmas Invasion

The one with the werewolf

Turn Left  (where Wilf says “it’s happening again. Like the war!” The closest ep in that era dealing with the same right-wing bandits who think morals can’t be “too obvious. (not saying you believe that!)”

The Waters of Mars

Midnight

Utopia

Fires of Pompeii

Human Nature (remember Martha in this?)

Lazarus Experiment

Girl in the Fireplace

Daleks in Manhattan

Gridlock

New New earth

The Titanic One

Every one of them has moral ‘lessons.’ You know what I reckon? When there are no more lessons to be had then two things: 1) we don’t need them anymore  or 2) or we think we’re too good for morality which is the beginning of some ‘end.’

I come home from my daily grind which I respect but mostly dislike and I want something chewy,  tarnished or glowing, bedevilling, assailing, frightening, gloomy, chunky, wacky, timey-whimey, chatty, shocking, something making me grimace in disgust so it makes me stand up to attention. I want: seductive, gruelling, compelling, explanatory, narrating, descriptive, eclipsing all other things.

I want a frog when I have no earthly clue why! I want triangles and oozy seven stomachs with flesh eating moths and cloth eating spiders. I want to point and laugh at people who think its OK to build crap hotels on top of waste and hide their profits and then I want to witness against them.

And I love the Doc. Her lack of sadism, her acceptance of me -because if she accepts Ryan who can’t ride a bike and probably can’t kick a ball, then I know she’ll think I’m alright because  I sweat rivers and it’s embarrassing. My eyes are different colours and my hair is curly, I have to shave and can’t drive and I stand by my religion but I dislike God sometimes so I think I could sit with Yaz’s gran and talk about it. I don’t have male role models as I’m 17. I have dad but Graham’s like my uber-dad: really awesome for 1 hour.

Everyone likes something about the show I reckon . Thanks for reading:  Thane

[Cath Annabel @cathannabel]

OK so the big festive question to which I am now putting my mind is which previous Xmas special to line up for a watch on Xmas Day, since we don’t have a new one.  I’m currently favouring last year’s, because of the whole Armistice centenary thing (and I recently saw an amazing contemporary opera about the Xmas truce in the trenches), but the discussion elsewhere about The Doctor, The Widow and The Wardrobe has reminded me how much I loved that one and it would be nice to spend some time with SmithDoc again.  Last year we rewatched the Capaldi specials so I’ll want to go back to previous Docs.  Any thoughts?

@thane16 Fantastic post.  I wanted to applaud but the family would think I was rather odd.  Mind you, they KNOW I’m rather odd so what the heck.

Festive greetings, everyone.

[syzygy @thane16]

@cathannabel I like The Day of the Doctor and The Time of the Doctor and The Name of.

That’s Who!  For others, it’s gonna be Diehard 2 . When Bruce is around, you wanna hide from the automatic weapons. Thane

[Missy @missy]

@kevinwho

I’d say whilst CC is in charge, you won’t be seeing Rachel Talahay.

I’ve just started re-watching all the Doctors from 2005 .

@thane16

As far as I can gather from posts, most of the recent episodes are a lesson in morals?

Still enjoyed your post. even though we do not agree.

My OH wasn’t keen on Steven Moffat – at least he said that he wasn’t, so I thought I’d prove a point. We watched, Blink, Girl in the Fireplace, Silence in the Library,  Forest of the Dead and Husbands of River song, all of which he really enjoys. Being a cruel person at heart (chuckle) I pointed out that all of them were written by Steven Moffat. Well, they are different he said. And there’s me thinking that it was only females who were supposed to be illogical.

Missy

 

[Anonymous @]

@missy

I’d say whilst CC is in charge, you won’t be seeing Rachel Talahay.

Sure doesn’t seem likely.  New broom, clean sweep.

And there’s me thinking that it was only females who were supposed to be illogical.

Pretty sure that’s humans.  Like happy tears, only less endearing. 🙂

[syzygy @thane16]

@missy

As far as I can gather from posts, most of the recent episodes are a lesson in morals?

Are they? For me to understand that I’d need to watch them twice 🙂

As for “lessons in morals” I’m not sure what you mean?

Lessons in morals ARE what the Doctor does best and has thru every iteration including Whittaker’s.

You like morals don’t you? If you’re absolutely perfect then I guess you wouldn’t.  As I explained upthread, at length, Tennant’s eps were Lessons In Morals. So were Capaldi’s  -which, I believe, you would’ve watched at least once? Thane

 

[Anonymous @]

Hi Folks,

@missy; @thane16; et al, I didn’t start this thread to get people swapping ideas on morals etc so can I ask we treat each other with respect and not have a go at each other.

Looking at the feedback it is clear that each person’s view of the doctor and his companions are very, very individual and different, in subtle ways. Those views can even be age related.

Thane 16 has a point that if you look hard enough you’ll find lessons in every episode of Dr Who, subtle, but they are there.  However, if you have already digested that lesson earlier in your life and deliver the results as part of your normal life you sometimes don’t see, or overlook the lesson and get involved in the story in a different way.

I was 10 when William Hartnell launched on our screens and have been a fan ever since, so you now know I’m a long term fan.  I’m not a boffin, but in that time I’ve learn’t a lot, both at school, college, and university, and I suppose that is the reason I can’t really engage in the new series with it’s in-your-face lessons.

Jodie W. could be a great Doctor, personal view so let’s not start a huge debate as to whether she is or not, I’d love to see her remake a David Tennant or Matt Smith episode so that the doubters could see that she is more than capable, it’s my view that she just needs some great new scripts.   Sitting here typing I’m wondering what type of episode we could have with Jodie and just one companion if the script was written by J.J.Abrams or Lawrence Kasdan.  That would definitely re-ignite my engines and get me back in love with the Doctor.

Anyway,  Please respect each others views, even mine, and keep the Forum friendly so that nodody is forced away because they feel they don’t fit in.  We all make the forum worthwhile.

[syzygy @thane16]

can I ask we treat each other with respect …and respect each others views, even mine, and keep the Forum friendly.

@RTDfan

I can totally be on board with that. In reading your post I think, yep, Tennant’s years were great and some were morality tales. There were a few straw men in Family of Blood, yes?   😀  Also part of the Doc is her using manners, understanding other views

So, I hope you didn’t see that as disrespectful -if so, my bad. I think @cathannabel said she applauded what I said -so maybe wires crossed  🙂

if you have already digested that lesson earlier in your life and deliver the results as part of your normal life you sometimes don’t see..

I think most people would argue it’s good to go over principles. Most of the Greek scholars wrote that “lessons don’t end. They can’t” and then there’s John Donne. Because you attended uni, you would have more knowledge about his satires than I would, certainly. I love education. Mum likes morality tales. They’re an expression of our core values, a friendly coalescing of our merits and demerits.

in that time I’ve learn’t a lot, both at school, college, and university, and I suppose that is the reason I can’t really engage in the new series with it’s in-your-face lessons….Jodie W. could be a great Doctor, let’s not start a huge debate as to whether she is or not…

I actually believe we do engage in debates about the new Doc -that’s why some of us are here 🙂   It’s true that the BBC as part of its culture was to educate -in Aus the ABC had that particular charter.

Thank you. G’night ya’ll.  T16.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 9 months ago by  syzygy. Reason: massive code all over the post!

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