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@purofilion @Margaret-Blaine and others – There’s clearly something mysterious and (as yet) unexplained about Maebh’s disappearance from the museum and how she knew to get the Doctor.  If the idea came from Clara, who may or may not be a telepath, than Maebh’s abilities must include clairvoyance, because she knew to find the TARDIS and the Doctor before Clara ever saw the forest.  That is, if Maebh got a mental message from Clara to find the Doctor, it must have been a future message, because Clara did not yet know anything was wrong.

The counter-argument may be that of course Maebh is clairvoyant because she knew about the solar flares and drew them in her school books.  But it’s only the trees (I think) who knew about the solar flares ahead of time, and they told Maebh.  [Although, why did Maebh think that making the trees grow was her idea?]

I think Missy is involved because of the way Maebh said “Miss” the second time rather than “Miss Oswald” – as far as I can tell, no one else called Clara just “Miss” during the episode.  It would be another “Women In The Shop” move, helping characters find the Doctor when they most need to.  I also think that there will be more for us to learn about the mysterious disappearance and reappearance of Annabel.  Weird.

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I loved it.  I don’t care how bad the science is (or isn’t), or whether there’s no real monster, or whatever the complaints are.  I love the whole idea of the trees watching out for and saving humanity over the centuries.  I thought the character development was wonderful, the interactions with the kids was great, the fairytale feel was well done.

Can’t say much now, but just wanted to say that.  Also, I haven’t read all the posts, but who else thinks that Missy sent Maebh to the Doctor?  The first time, she says something about Miss Oswald, but when the conversation comes up again, she says that the thought came from “Miss”.  Uh huh.

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@bluesqueakpip Ha!  I did not know that!  Curse you, Smithy’s knee!

I did notice on a rewatch that they sort of crawl away at the end, which presumably is supposed to mean “getting the hell out of the timestream”, but I completely missed it the first time around.

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@pedant – I agree that the show is generally about why rather than how (and yes, in retrospect it doesn’t matter how they escaped the Doctor’s timestream).  But still, we were told that jumping into someone’s timestream meant certain destruction, and jumping into one’s own timestream could erase your existence entirely.  So I found it a little jarring that it apparently turned out not to be that much of an issue.

That said, it’s not important.  I bring it up merely as a conjecture for whether Clara was affected by the experience more than has been let on.

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@thommck Adding more fuel to your excellent fire.  Wasn’t the T-Rex in Deep Breath killed because of something desirable in the dinosaur’s optic nerve?  Doesn’t seem like such a throwaway in retrospect.

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@barnable @purofilion You know, I was never satisfied with the end of Name of the Doctor.  Dickiebow finds Clara in his timestream, they see Grandpa, Dickiebow makes his little speech (“not in the name of the Doctor!”), credits.  I spent the months leading up to the 50th Anniversary assuming that Day of the Doctor would be about 11 and Clara trying to figure out how to get out of his timestream, and I was confused and a bit disappointed to see that that part was basically hand-waved away.

In fact, I clung to that feeling so much that I formulated the Bonkers theory (before even meeting you fine people) that DotD had taken place entirely within the Doctor’s timestream (which to me was an explanation of bits of fan-service such as Potter’s Lane, Coal Hill School, Osgood’s scarf, etc. – I thought it was the Doctor’s timestream collapsing on itself a la Wedding of River Song), and that it was all about the Doctor replaying his guilt about burning Gallifrey, and that they would later escape his timestream and the Doctor would be motivated to figure out a way to go back and save Gallifrey.  But time went on (so to speak), and they returned to Trenzalore at Christmas, and figured that Moff had meant the end of NotD to convey simply that, once they found each other within the timestream, it was a cinch to get out again.  (Bit of a let-down, but I understand that they can only do so much in 44 minutes.)

But what if that’s not the end of the story?  I love your theorizing — did all of the Claricles in fact come back together?  Did one escape?  Is TL Claricle out there somewhere?  Did 11 in fact pull the *right* Clara out of his timestream?  What if some part of her is still mucking about inside him, whining “I don’t know where I am”?  The mind boggles.

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Amusing that, due to a statistical anomaly, Paul McGann is statistically your favorite Doctor. 😉

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Yes, don’t leave us in suspense!  Which 4th Doctor season came out on top?

It’s interesting how personal preference can differ even among people who generally love Doctor Who.  Of the AG seasons, 6 is my favorite (Impossible Astronaut through Wedding of River Song) for exactly the same reasons why many people dislike it — brain-popping plot twists, lots of Moffat Loops, timey-wimey nonsense, everything turned up to 11 (so to speak).

Although, when all is said and done, season 8 (34) may give it a run for its money.

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@purofilion In siege mode, air pressure is lost -eventually

To be even more @pedant -ic, I believe these two things are unconnected.  My understanding was that the TARDIS went into siege mode because it was having its power drained by the Boneless, but at the same time, the loss of power caused the life support to fail (he says “life support failing” at some point).  It would be a pretty poorly designed siege mode if it slowly killed the inhabitant it was supposed to save. 🙂

@barnable The only problem I have with explaining the theory is the PC from the Caretaker. I don’t know how 12 collected him if he never met the PC.

An excellent point, and one I’d forgotten about.  Oh well – there goes that theory.

SO here is another Bonkers Missy Theory:  Could she be a later regeneration of the Time Lord Claricle we see in Name of the Doctor telling Hartnell to take a different TARDIS?  As others have pointed out, that Claricle should be kicking around somewhere, right?  And she wouldn’t necessarily still look like Clara.

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@purofilion – You’re undoubtedly correct.  The other downfall is that, if Missy is inside The Doctor’s head (literally or figuratively), she can’t also be the Woman In The Shop, and that connection is just too delicious to pass up.

Rather, (Theory Number 2!) I suspect a Moffat Loop in play.  Because of something that happens later this season (or in a future season?), Missy chooses Clara to be the Doctor’s… protector? successor?  And she does so by being the Woman In The Shop and giving Clara the Doctor’s phone number.  Something like that.

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Missy is the seagull!!!

Kidding.  After a couple weeks of work and travel, I’m finally caught up and can contribute again!

I loved this week’s episode.  First off, I think the effects were some of the best I’ve ever seen on DW.  The 3D creatures were completely believable and creepy, and the scene with Clara & Rigby in the hanging chair while the creatures came for them was fantastically well done.  Second, the mini-TARDIS was exactly the same size as this, which sits atop my kitchen counter and holds candy.  What a hoot!

Third, I thought the humo(u)r was well handled.  The bits with full-size Doctor stuck in mini-TARDIS were a lot of fun.

Fourth, this episode told us a lot about the characters of Clara and the Twelfth Doctor.  Clara is becoming more and more Doctor-like — lying, manipulating people for their “own good”, etc. — and the Doctor doesn’t like it one bit.  In effect, Clara held up a mirror to the Doctor this week (there we are on mirrors again), and it was not a pretty picture.  In particular, I think the Doctor was appalled that Clara took such glee in being like him, and in being more tickled at solving the puzzle than sad that people died along the way.  Add to that the fact that Clara is now lying when she has no reason to (Danny is going to be pissed when he finds out), and she is skating on thin ice.  (I understand what people are saying about Clara falling into the trap of the female character gone astray, but I think it’s more about the Doctor being a bad influence, and Clara needing to find her own way.)

Now onto the Bonkers!

@barnable I love your theory about Missy being a split-off regeneration (a Doctoricle?).  With all the regeneration energy he got out of the Time Lords, there could be Doctors all over the place!

I’ve got a new theory going in a slightly different direction.  Several people (apologies for not giving credit) have postulated that Missy is inside the Doctor’s head (miniaturization-wise), but what if she’s more figuratively inside his head?  What if Missy is sort of a multiple personality for the Doctor, and the Nethersphere is something he has created inside his own head to deal with things — the death of innocents, his own identity issues, etc.?  I recognize that it doesn’t really fit with the synopsis for the season finale, but that has never stopped us before!

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@arbutus – Ah!  You do indeed learn something new every day.  So, alas, we are not neighbors (or neighbours, as the case may be), but it’s a lovely tree.

I guess I should try to get back on topic.  I agree that the Doctor still lies, but never maliciously.  Like any good parent, the Doctor lies when he needs to to protect you.

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@arbutus – It was indeed!  Overall, however, Wagner was not my thing because my voice was not big enough to sing it! 😉  Give me La Bohème or Carmen any day. 🙂

While we’re on digressions about names, yours doesn’t by any chance refer to the suburb of Baltimore, does it?

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@purofilion – To be completely clear, you were in no way lecturing or hectoring.  I’m new here and didn’t know the story — I asked an honest question and was grateful for your answer.  No worries!

There is a quote, attributed at times to either Rossini or Mark Twain, that “Wagner has some beautiful moments, and some lousy half hours.”  But I kid.  Some of the most fun I had in my limited opera career was singing in the chorus for The Flying Dutchman (short, by Wagnerian standards), which included a fair amount of shouting and demolishing the stage.  Great great fun.

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@purofilion Cheers from one digressive naughty romantic to another! 🙂

I also don’t view 10 as “sociopathic” in The Waters of Mars — the word I would use is “nihilistic”.  He’s lost all reason to care about the consequences of his actions.  He feels oppressed by all of the Time Lord rules he has been forced to follow, even subconsciously — don’t interfere, don’t change history, don’t get involved — and finally cracks.  Because he is well and truly alone, he is beholden to no one, and can basically do what he wants.  He is well and truly the Lord of Time – the only one.  And oh what a rude awakening he gets on that account.

Thanks for the etymology lesson – I fully agree that “puro” is somehow more poetic.  (And you’re wrong – Wagner was definitely a blatherer.  That’s why his operas are so long.) 🙂

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@arbutus – I thoroughly agree that 12 seems to incorporate something from just about all of the previous Doctors.  Perhaps his identity issues arise from the fact that he now has so many different personalities trying to operate within him.  Sometimes it’s the haughtiness of 3, the hostility of 6, the surreal humor of 4, the sneakiness of 7, the world-weariness of the War Doc…

I also agree with your take on Eleven and Clara.  More than anything, the Doctor cannot resist a good mystery.  So, until the answer to the Impossible Girl question was revealed, 11 couldn’t see Clara as a real person, but just as a series of clues.  I think, in a way, that 11 took advantage of Clara’s crush on him to keep her close enough to solve the mystery of who she is.  And I think he now regrets that.  12’s speech to her in “Deep Breath” about how it was his mistake to allow her to think there was a chance for romance was really revealing.  To that end, I think his new snippiness towards her is almost a “you’re too good for me” attempt to push her away, while simultaneously being terrified to lose her.

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@timeloop – That 11 tribute is so wonderful!  All the feels!

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@purofilion – Possibly, I want the Doctor to be perfect: I did that with 10 and 11 too – what’s my psychosis I wonder?

Interesting.  Personally, I find the Doctor to be much more interesting when he is not perfect.  I think, in fact, that that is my biggest issue with 10 – he’s just so perfect and unflappable.  My favorite moments of 10 are when he completely loses it — particularly the “Timelord Victorious” stuff in The Waters of Mars and his thoroughly unfair and egocentric rant at Wilf in his finale (“I could’ve done so much!).  Tennant is a staggeringly good actor (possibly the most well-trained of the modern era), and is phenomenally good at making these outbursts flow naturally from the earlier characterization, so that while they’re a surprise, the signs were all there beforehand.

In fact, my wife decided some ways through 10’s tenure that he is actually cold and distant, and his charming veneer is actually an act, employed to keep anyone from getting too close (post-Rose, at least), while simultaneously appearing to be AOK and in control.  It’s an interesting theory, and Tennant’s good enough to pull it off if that was his intention.

I prefer 9 and 11 because their imperfections are closer to the surface.  9’s rage in “Dalek” is so raw.  But it’s Smith who wins for me.  His forced whimsy was irritating at first, but Smith deftly juxtaposed that perpetual motion with astonishing moments of stillness, when his eyes would take on centuries of sadness.  11, more than any other Doctor, is Pinocchio — he just wants to be a real boy.  But every setback chips away at him and renders him more ancient and alien.  For me, some of his finest performances come in the second half of season 7 — shattered by the loss of Amy and Rory (well, Amy at least), he is overcome with loneliness and mistrust, and never really allows Clara to get close to him until the very end.

12, thus far, is still a bit of an enigma, but so fascinating to watch.  As I said in one of the other threads, I originally thought that he was the Doctor without all the masks, but now I think he’s incapable of existing without a mask — and the mask this time is the gruff grandpa who pretends he doesn’t care.  I agree with @arbutus that this comes out of insecurity and loss of identity.  I think he has pushed away from what he was as 11 (no whimsy here, for sure), but at the same time, he misses the joy he felt in that incarnation – as evidenced by how pleased he was when he thought Clara was falling for the 11 lookalike.

At any rate, Capaldi is firing on all cylinders, and doing an excellent job of keeping us guessing.  I can’t wait to see what he doesn’t next!

P.S. – puro, my initial guess was “Pur of Ilion” rather than “Puro Filion” (based on your references to other Ilions) until I noticed you sign your posts “puro”.  So is it “Puro F. Ilion”?  Inquiring minds, etc.

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Excellent episode!  The music was too loud and madcap, but we turned on CCs halfway through, which helped immensely.  Here are my (largely disjointed) thoughts:

First, as has been mentioned but bears repeating, the Skovox was a means to an end — a minimally believable danger to provide the structural framework for an episode primarily about character development and exploration.  If it were any more interesting or more obviously destructive, it would have detracted from the point of this episode.  (Indeed, I could put on my Bonkers hat and postulate that the Doctor made the whole thing up and created the robot himself in order to have an excuse to spy on Clara.)  (Or at least exaggerated the danger, because the Doctor wouldn’t purposely build something that kills a cop.  But I digress.)  Point is, there’s no point being disappointed in the Skovox because it wasn’t the focus of the episode.

The Doctor.  Armchair psychology time.  I think this is a Doctor who is far more insecure than he has been in some time.  While I had originally gone with the assessment that Twelve is the “real” Doctor, in the sense that he is Eleven without the artificial mask of whimsy, I’m now thinking that there’s still a mask there — a mask of gruffness and grandiosity to cover his insecurity and uncertainty.  If I had to guess, I would say this arose out of everything the Doctor has done since Day of the Doctor.  He “rescued” Gallifrey, which should make him feel good, but it immediately becomes clear that this has not solved the larger issue — Gallifrey is now trapped in a bubble universe, and any attempt to return would mean a new and bloodier Time War.  Add to that the fact that the Time Lords (Rassilon and his gang from The End of Time) are problematic folks, so the Doctor may very well now regret what he did, or at least be pretty uncertain whether it was the right move.  I think this is evidenced by the fact that he has barely mentioned Gallifrey and the Time Lords (if at all) since regeneration.

Plus, his interactions with Clara are seeming more and more insecure.  He berates her (part of the mask), but he needs her more than a Doctor has needed a companion in some time.  He needs her approval, her company, her respect, and seems to be terrified of losing it.  I think his hostility towards Danny is “she’s going to fall in love and leave me.”  This is all tied into the “am I a good man” question, which still seems to trouble him.

This episode, in my opinion, shed some additional like on Twelve’s love/hate relationship with Eleven.  He is clearly distancing himself from his former self in that he has dropped all of Eleven’s Pinocchio-style whimsical affectations.  But at the same time, he was so pleased when he thought that Clara’s boyfriend was the Eleven lookalike.  I think a part of him misses being Eleven – perhaps it was easier to be the Man Who Forgets?

The weary soldier comparison with Danny clearly applies (you hate in others what you see in yourself), but I think he was truly taken aback by Danny calling him out as aristocracy.  Forgive me, because my knowledge of BG Who is incomplete, but has there been much discussion of what the Doctor did in adulthood before fleeing Gallifrey?  I agree with whoever characterized him as an insurgency leader, but isn’t it possible that sometime in those first 400 years, he tried his hand at being a good soldier and taking orders from his superiors?  It wouldn’t surprise me if that went into his decision to run.

Clara.  I’m more convinced than ever that Clara is not long for this world.  (All that talk about keeping her safe, etc.)  I’m sure this has been talked about before, but my guess is that Clara will die (or “die”) and turn up in the Nethersphere, and the Doctor and Danny will go after her.

Danny.  I am particularly impressed with Samuel Anderson’s performance.  He brings a lot of nuance and depth to the character that goes above and beyond the writing.  His “officer” argument with the Doctor was spectacular.  Interested to see where that goes.

 

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Actually, I like the way you describe it as other time lines that ultimately disappear when they are changed — like one basic timeline that is constantly being overwritten.  That’s pretty close to my viewpoint as well.

Someone in the Time Heist thread (I forget who) described the TARDIS seeing all of time as one static form in four (or more) dimensions, rather than something that moves.  I really dig that idea, for both the TARDIS and the Time Lords.  It’s basically like a painting — even if you’ve already painted part of the canvas, and are now working on another part of the canvas, you can always go back and change that previous part of the canvas (paint over it).  The original paint is still there underneath, but all you see is the new paint.

What do you think?

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@barnable you’re wonderfully clever and have clearly put a lot of thought into this, but you’re making my brain hurt.  (Or “making me giddy”, as Two would say.)

Your scenario certainly works (I think), but I find it much simpler to think of the closed loop idea.  Doctor and Martha receive a packet of information from Sally.  Later, they happen to be at the spooky old house (early in Earth time but later in their personal timelines), and get zapped to 1969 by the Angels.  They review Sally’s packet, and begin to play their part — writing on the walls of the house before wallpaper is put up, finding Billy, recording the easter eggs, etc.  Sally (earlier in her personal timeline) finds the writing, finds the easter eggs, sends the TARDIS back to 1969, and writes everything down.  Later, she sees the Doctor and Martha on the street and gives them the packet of information.  Wibbly wobbly, timey wimey.

In fact, while I’m a fan of multiple timelines and the multiverse theory in other contexts (Neal Stephenson’s amazing book Anathem, for example), I don’t think it works in the Doctor Who universe.  Basically, it’s not very satisfying to imagine that whenever the Doctor uses the TARDIS to save someone, that’s creating a new timeline, but the person just dies in the original universe.  I’d rather believe that, in the Doctor Who context, there’s only one main universe (except for bubble universes and wherever Rose lives) and the Doctor’s actions do in fact change the course of time.

But I applaud your ingenuity and won’t challenge your theories. 🙂

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@blenkinsopthebrave – But if the Woman in the Shop is Susan at 65 and the picture in the Black Archives is Susan at 15, Clara wouldn’t necessarily have put two and two together yet.  Could have just been “she looks familiar…”  And I think we’ve established that, while Clara remembers some of what happened in Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS (the “impossible girl” conversation), she doesn’t remember the details of what she read in The Book.  When Vastra asks Clara the Doctor’s name in Name of the Doctor, she doesn’t know it, despite having read it in The Book.

So there’s no reason for her to have said “so actually…” this week.

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@blenkinsopthebrave – Jinx!  Here’s your Coke.

 

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I think it’s entirely possible that Susan could be The Woman In The Shop.  After being left behind, Susan could have found her way back to Earth in the 60s, and simply come the long way round (or rather, for her, a short cut).  Therefore, for her, it hasn’t been another 1500 years since her grandfather left her, but only 50 years.  That way, Carole Ann Ford could play her again — perhaps she’s not 100% Time Lord, and therefore ages more like a human?  Perhaps she’s working in a shop, recognizes Clara from the time Clara told her and the Doctor to take the other TARDIS, realizes something weird is happening, and gives her his phone number.  Just imagine when he finds out who it is!  Similar to School Reunion, I suppose, but with the familial angst cranked up to 11.  (Or 12, as the case may be.)

And then a regeneration scene for Susan at the end, and the Doctor gets an entirely new companion!

 

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I’m confused — doesn’t he do the “call me” gesture at Karabraxos, not Psi?

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OK @booksarethebestweapon (nice name), I’ll bite:

1. I’ll use anything, but I’ve parked myself here since I discovered it last week because it’s delightful.

2. Read (and occasionally respond to) the Bonkers Theorizing on the most current episode.  Also, I’ve been slowly reading the responses in the “Faces of the Doctor” thread, which are truly fascinating.

3. For me, I am drawn to DW as a piece of speculative fiction that is fundamentally optimistic and positive.  The stories are generally excellent, the characters interesting, and the themes uplifting.  I like dystopia as much as the next sci-fi geek, but it’s a real treat to hear things like “I’ve never met anyone who isn’t important.”

4. I think the mods are doing a hell of a job and I applaud them.

5. All the time.   Because it’s awesome.

6. Sure — meetups, etc.  Our local library did two Doctor Who events for pre-teens and teenagers over the summer that were well attended.

7. N/A

8. A Google search for “Doctor Who Listen discussion”. 🙂  I think it was the first result.

9. I don’t really have time to dig deeply into more than one fan site, but I like the way this one is laid out, and I appreciate that all of the regular posters on the site seem intelligent and slightly obsessive, which is what you want in a fan site.  A bunch of “i liked it” or “i didn’t like it” is fine, but it’s so much more fun to speculate about whether and how Clara is going to die, or whether this season’s arc is based on Goethe’s Faust.

10. Not yet.  I’ve only been here a week, but everyone seems lovely.  From what I can tell, the mods keep a pretty close eye on things, so there seems to be a minimum or trolls or flame-wars.

Good luck!  Librarians are awesome.

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@thommck – spot on!

I’m perfectly ok with closed loops (or acausal loops as @phileasf so eloquently puts it) because I assume the Doctor has a more nuanced view of time and paradoxes than I do, and if creating one’s own time loop doesn’t bother him, it won’t bother me either.

When I feel close to head-asplode time, I just think back to this exchange from “The Shakespeare Code”:

MARTHA: But are we safe? I mean, can we move around and stuff?
DOCTOR: Of course we can. Why do you ask?
MARTHA: It’s like in the films. You step on a butterfly, you change the future of the human race.
DOCTOR: Tell you what then, don’t step on any butterflies. What have butterflies ever done to you?
MARTHA: What if, I don’t know, what if I kill my grandfather?
DOCTOR: Are you planning to?
MARTHA: No.
DOCTOR: Well, then.

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@bluesqueakpip – I LOVE the solution of the TARDIS rerouting the call to the most advantageous time/place.  A very elegant solution.  My working hypothesis had been that the actual heist happened 40 years ago or so (long enough ago for Karabraxos to have gotten old in the meantime) and the Doctor & Clara went back in time to prepare for the heist.  But I like your explanation better.

The diagram, like so many of Moffat’s stories, would be a perfect circle. 🙂

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@barnable – Excellent Bonkers stuff, but I think that this sort of paradox (the storyline only happens because someone at the end of the storyline goes back in time to make it happen) is a Moffat staple — see the entire episode of “Blink”, and the creation/existence of The Crack.  So I don’t think they have any problem whatsoever with the explanation that the Doctor received a call from Karabraxos, prompting him to go back in time, rob the bank, and give his number to Karabraxos.  Timey wimey, etc.

It’s a bit like the Bill & Ted’s joke about “when we get out of here, I’m going to go back in time, steal my dad’s keys, and put them right there!”

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AAA!  Moffat, you sneaky boy!

I just watched the “DW Extra” video posted upthread by @wolfweed.  Right around the 10-minute mark, the actors playing Psi and Saibra are asked what they think their characters are up to now.  The actress playing Saibra says something like, “And I think we see the Doctor and Clara from time to time.”  And they cut to shots of each of them shaking hands with the Doctor in what looks like a café.  I suppose it could be a deleted scene from this episode, but then why show it?  The juxtaposition is just too coincidental – they are returning!

[I don’t think this is a spoiler, but I apologize if I’m wrong.  I thought I remembered from the “Listen” thread that stuff from the Extra video is fair game.]

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I loved this episode!  I figured out the identity of the Architect about halfway through, but it didn’t lessen my enjoyment of the episode.  A couple minor comments, some of which have already been mentioned upthread (apologies for not @-ing where credit is due):

• Why did he bring Clara?  I think Clara is there to vouch for the Doctor after they’ve had their memories wiped.  Given that the Doctor (this one, at least) is not exactly warm and fuzzy, there was no way to guarantee that Psi and Sabre (sp?) would listen to him.  So I think Clara’s role is, “yes, I know this man, and you can trust him.”
• Why isn’t the bank better protected?  Arrogance, and over-confident in their (admittedly impressive) safeguards.  After all, the Teller can sense guilt, and no one should be able to get past that little room where the safe-deposit boxes are delivered in the “atomically sealed” container.  So there’s literally no way to get any further without (a) a memory wipe and (b) a fancy bomb already hidden in one of the vaults.
• Why does the Doctor grab his arm after Sabre hugs him?  In my memory, she whacks him playfully on the arm before hugging him, or maybe I’m just imagining that.  Maybe she hugs him too forcefully because she’s so excited to be able to hug people and doesn’t know her own strength?

Great theorizing about the red/blue (I noticed the lights in the hallways as well).  I particularly liked that Karabraxos’ biggest regret at the end was that she’d let the Teller’s species die.  I had expected it to be something materially valuable (although, as my wife pointed out afterwards, why would the Doctor agree to help her if it was just a thing?), and the twist was refreshing.  A little bit of redemption.

I totally agree that Clara’s little moments when the Teller scanned her have larger significance and will be important later.  What is she meant to remember?  If she simultaneously remembers the lives of all her Claricles, will she become Bad Wolf-like?

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@bluesqueakpip – True!  Actually, if you haven’t read it yet, Charlie Higson’s excellent short story The Beast of Babylon (from the super-fun 11 Doctors, 11 Stories collection) tells the story of where Nine goes between Rose turning him down, and coming back to give her a second chance.

@arbutus – I’ll agree that, regardless, Nine seems to be having identity trouble even after meeting Rose.  He is generally genial, and then basically loses it during “Dalek”.  So your point about follow-ups to “old age” regenerations may be valid.  Although I’m inclined to think that the “new cycle” thing is more likely to blame for Thirteen’s existential crisis.

[DrBen @replies]

@arbutus – Lots to think about, but I want to address the minor point of whether Nine was fresh out of the box.  I think the “Rose” episode is actually a bit inconsistent on that point.  On the one hand, Clive has a website full of sightings of a Doctor with Nine’s face throughout history, suggesting that he’s been mucking about for a while.  On the other hand, when Nine first goes into Rose’s apartment, he looks disapprovingly at himself in a mirror and futzes with his ears, as if he’s still getting used to them.

I guess the answer is that Nine has been around long enough to visit a few places in Earth history, but not long enough to be fully acclimated to his big ears. 🙂

[DrBen @replies]

In my view, the contrast between Faust and UrFaust suggests that, while the self-sacrificial characters appear to have been saved, they have in reality been damned. Missy is clearly Faust (or maybe Goethe; not really clear on that point– thoughts?).

But no; if the Doctor is a Faust character, perhaps Missy is in fact the devil, and her Nether Regions are exactly that, and Gretchen et al have indeed gone to hell. Maybe the Doctor will have to save them from the devil with some really great fiddle playing? Or would it be the pipes, in his case? (Not the spoons, we’ve moved on.)

I too am digging this theory.  But let me throw in a twist.

We are being instructed this season to part with our pre-conceived notions, and that our first instincts are not always correct.  (Robin Hood is real after all!  The monster knocking at the door is just the hull settling!)

Given Missy’s odd manner, and her “Welcome to Heaven” bit, we (as clever suspicious DW fans) will immediately assume the opposite – that Missy is some sort of malevolent creature.

But what if she is exactly what she says she is?  Not God per se, but some creature of salvation and good?  (After all, we’ve already met The Devil, haven’t we?)

This fits into @idiotsavon ‘s discussion of Goethe’s Gretchen being alternately damned and saved.  If the Doctor is Faust, making a bargain (through Clara) for a new regeneration cycle (with the Time Lords?) in exchange for… (what? his soul?)… and Gretchen and the others are sacrificed along the way as pawns in that bargain… Well, maybe Clara is the final sacrifice?  There have been numerous theories in this forum that she will meet her end sooner rather than later.

And maybe Missy will grant her salvation, finally (re)uniting the Claricles?

[DrBen @replies]

Thanks, @bluesqueakpip.

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@RickGreen – I still can’t quite tell from your posts whether you are merely very confident in your theory, or whether you have some sort of outsider information that informs your conclusion.

If it’s the former, fine.  I just disagree.  The photo is blurry and could be any number of things.  The behavior doesn’t seem at all like Strax to me.

If it’s the latter, you should be talking about it in the Spoilers thread (or not at all – I don’t know if actual leaks are beyond the pale in this forum).

Personally, I will be irritated if it turns out to be Strax.

[DrBen @replies]

@RickGreen – I don’t know if you’re joking or not, but the thing on the bed is entirely the wrong shape to be Strax.  The head is too narrow.

 

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Greetings from Baltimore, Maryland!  I am so pleased to find you all!  I happened to find this forum while looking for more people to talk about “Listen” with, and here you all are!

I am another relatively recent newcomer to Who (“Whocomer?)  I did not watch Doctor Who as a kid, despite being the prime age during the Baker/Davison years and despite it being *exactly* the sort of thing my family would have been into (what with already watching Monty Python, Hitchhiker’s, etc.).

Instead, I dove in with both feet in August of last year, and binged all of the important episodes in order to be ready for the 50th anniversary in November.  I have since hooked my wife and 11-year-old son, and we’ve watched the entire AG series.  I have also gone back and watched at least one serial from each of the BG Doctors in order to get the full sense of scope and the full range of the character (The Time Meddler, Tomb of the Cybermen, Terror of the Autons, City of Death, Caves of Androzani, The Twin Dilemma (ugh), Dragonfire, and YES, the TV Movie).

I don’t have a “my” Doctor because I really appreciate what each actor brings to the role, even Colin Baker.  I have a soft spot for Pertwee because my first DW exposure was catching the first couple episodes of Carnival of Monsters.  I love Eccleston and hoped beyond hope that he would have come back for even so much as a cameo in the 50th.  I think Capaldi is killing it thus far.

A pleasure to meet you all, and I look forward to lots of Bonkers theorizing!

[DrBen @replies]

@spider –

OR, Missy is just a physical manifestation of a bad Mary Sue fan fiction where she is in league with the TARDIS saving all the people that sacrificed themselves for the Doctor so when she finally reveals herself to him she can show him nonone died! Rid him of ALL his guilt so he falls in love with her and travels all of time and space with her forever. XD. And if that happens I shall personally decapitate Steven Moffat with a spoon.

Ha!  Well, I guess Moffat already had a go with fan fiction in Sherlock (three different explanations for The Fall), so stranger things have happened.  That’s funny though – Missy is an alien fangirl who grew up hearing of the Doctor’s exploits and has created an entire world in which she is the Mary Sue (Mary Sue -> MS -> Missy) who is so amazing that the Doctor can’t help but fall for her.  The comment about his accent (“I think I’ll keep it”) plays into the idea that she is creating (or thinks she is creating) his reality.

It could work!

[DrBen @replies]

@straax – I’ll do my best.

Why is the Doctor so rude about Clara’s appearance in this series – her big eyes, her makeup and that she has let herself go – loved when he called her Handles

The Doctor has never been great at social niceties.  Twelve seems particularly uninterested in human things like tact.  What amuses me even more is his inept attempts at trying to be nice, like, “Good for you, make an effort.”

Why is chalk such a big feature – from waking up in Deep Breath to the smell of chalk the Doctor is writing all over the place

I don’t remember the reference in Deep Breath, but I think the chalkboards are part of Twelve’s thing.  Each Doctor has his particular anachronistic affectation — 11’s bow ties, the occasional typewriter on the TARDIS console, etc.  Twelve seems to be adopting a professorial attitude – like a distracted Oxford don with a temper.  Not just because of the chalkboards, but the bookshelves, and all the books stacked on the stairs of the control room.

Do we know if Orson wrote the message above the door??? Is it possible that the same ghost wrote “listen” on the board and also the message above the door on Orson’s ship?

I’ll have to watch again, but I don’t think we know for sure that Orson wrote the message – only the Doctor says so.  Personally, I think “listen” will be written by the Doctor in a later episode, but the message above the door is another weird thing that makes me suspicious about Orson Pink.

Is it my imagination or are mirrors and reflections featured heavily??? Star burst in the daleks eyes, triple Doctor in Clara’s mirrors,  Furious mirrors  🙂

A reference to this Doctor’s introspection, perhaps?  Finding out if he is or isn’t a good man can be accomplished only by looking within.

A soldier so brave he doesn’t need a gun. He can keep the whole world safe. What should we call him.  Refers to the toy Ssoldier and the Doctor.  Amuses me that they both come out from a box 🙂

Nice catch!  Two old soldiers in boxes.

[DrBen @replies]

@mudlark – I like it.  If time is simply the 4th dimension, then for the TARDIS to go from one point in time and space to another point in time and space is simply a matter of relocating to another point on a stationary 4-axis graph.

I suppose it’s sensible, going back to @arbutus ‘s original point, that we puny humans, who can only observe three dimensions at once, wouldn’t have the capacity for such calculations, and would seriously muck up a first attempt.

[DrBen @replies]

@arbutus – A fair point, but I think we’re meant to ignore such things based on the logic of the show.  When the TARDIS pops forward or back a day or two, you don’t see the Doctor calculating where the planet will have moved to in its orbit by that time (although, of course, the TARDIS could be smart enough to make those calculations herself).  At any rate, I still think we’re not done with Orson Pink’s story.

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@thommck – The more I think about it, the more suspicious I am about Orson Pink as well.  I’m not sure this was mentioned before (although I don’t recall seeing it), but doesn’t it seem odd that his mission went so colossally wrong?  You get in a time machine that is supposed to take you one week into the future (and, presumably, not move in space), and instead you end up, not merely at the very end of time, but on an entirely different planning?  That seems like an unbelievable cock-up, even by human standards.

It seems, instead, like the stated mission may have been a smokescreen.  One guy, but two chairs?  A supposedly stationary craft traveling light years?  Orson’s admittedly dodgy behavior?  Also, I have to watch it again, but I think that the Doctor’s only confirmation of Orson’s identity was from “footage” of his departure, which certainly could have been doctored or could otherwise have been not what it seemed to be.

Bonkers enough?

[DrBen @replies]

I don’t know if this is the right spot for this, but here goes:

ARGH! My hopes have been dashed!

I had been nursing a theory that River Song has to come back because we have not yet seen the Doctor give her his sonic screwdriver.  As she says in “Forest of the Dead” (I’m paraphrasing), “Last time I saw you, you turned up with a new haircut and a suit…”  And I figured that it wouldn’t make sense for her to have a “spotters guide” of the Doctor’s faces if she only ever sees 10 and 11.

So what I figured was that Moffat was holding that moment up his sleeve for a great episode with 12 — just imagine!  The dynamic between Kingston and Capaldi would be amazing.  She could say something like “I’ve just been hired to lead an expedition to The Library.”  He would look inexplicably sad, pull out his sonic, and say, “Here, take this.”  All the feels!

BUT ALAS.  Someone in the “Listen” thread mentioned the (otherwise excellent) Night and the Doctor shorts that aired between seasons 5 and 6, which I hadn’t previously scene.  Lo and behold, Moffat threw in a (pointless and unnecessary) reference to 11 going with her to Derillium, apparently for the last time.  Why, Moffat, why?!  Why would you take such a pivotal and important scene, and play it offscreen?!  *sob*

In short, River is my favorite.

[DrBen @replies]

So happy to have found you all!  Until now, my Bonkers Theorizing has taken the form of talking to myself (or was I talking to myself? was someone listening?)

@Joehovah, I love the connection between Rupert’s one chair and Orson’s extra chair!  It may simply be poetic storytelling, but who knows?

I loved this episode entirely.  I loved the ambiguities and the sheer restraint of it.  I hope that Moffat will be able to resist explaining things away later, although I am in the camp of those who believes that the Doctor will have an opportunity later in the season to go back and write “LISTEN” on that chalkboard.

Here’s something I’ve been thinking about: There’s a pattern this season of the Doctor (a) needing to be right (e.g., needing to prove that there are no “good Daleks” even if it means death to those around him) and (b) often being wrong (e.g., Robin Hood is real, Hiding Monster is not, etc.).  This is quite a departure from the previous Doctors, who seldom seemed to be wrong about anything.

Is it possible that his 800 years on Trenzalore took their toll on the Doctor’s mind?  It may very well be that there’s a big different between 1200 and 2000 when you’re a Time Lord.  In Shada, for instance (never finished, I acknowledge), much is made about Chronotis’ failing memory on account of his being quite old.  There’s no reason why the Doctor shouldn’t have a similar loss of faculties.

Counterpoint: I doubt Moffat would go there, because it kind of hamstrings future Doctors, but who knows?

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