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One quick prediction: Masie is River

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Hello fellow theorizers,

Thank you for the warm welcome @scaryb @spider @arbutus, I’m happy to be back too. Sorry I couldn’t answer sooner – I also felt like nothing I could say would bring anything new to the discussion.

In retrospect and on a second watching – especially with this new episode the 3 week long party for himself was fun.

@spider Funny how just last episode you pointed out how different the Doctor is to humans when I felt specifically in this episode that the Doctor seemed very caring. It is like Moffat tired to show off the complexity that is the Doctor.

So I’ve watched this episode 1,5 times – once I saw it and once I listened to it while I was falling asleep. I havent read what you guys think of it so far so my opinion is not influenced by outside influences (sorry for the repetition).
In some ways this episode reminded me of Sherlock funny enough because it did the same kind of thing, I feel. It was a service to fans, it made everyone pull their hair, incredulous. Surely Moffat cannot rewrite all that is Doctor Who- again. So once Davros behaved like he was supposed to it all fell into place. He’s been “out of it” so long Moffat wanted to give the younger audience a refresher course in how evil Davros is, who he is and what he had done -where he comes from.  I liked that.

Other than that I feel like very deep, complex issues have been touched which made -hopefully especially the younger generation- thoughtful, defining friendship and enemies. That not all is black and white – that there are a lot of different opinions and that things change over time. I also feel like Moffat lay a foundation of a possible future female Doctor.

All in all I have to say I liked this episode, Missy and Clara were superb. Sadly, I cannot come up with any good big theory right now, looking forward to episode 3!

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Looks like in general I am one of the more skepical ones on here. Most of you arent bothered by the sudden change of tone between Clara/the Doctor/Missy.

I mean just a few episodes ago Clara wanted Missy dead. D-E-A-D.”If you ever let her live, today and everything that happened is your fault!” And the Doctor felt happy to oblidge as well.
Whereas now Clara seems more than happy to just move along with the “deal with it” explanation.
Make no mistake, I liked their banter too, but it was bending their relationship a bit far in my opinion.

In this episode Clara was clearly the Doctors stand-in on earth in his absence, which is interesting to see. She sure has enough experience doing it by now and all of UNIT had no problem with it either.

I, too, always like it when they add in old material from already aired episodes. It knits the story together in a neat way and makes it feel more wholesome. I really like how Moffat continiues to dot that.

I am still trying to get the big picture of things,

happy theorizing 🙂

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Hello fellow writers,

I have just seen the newest episode.

This is…. new/weird/odd/surprising/bold/fake/confusing/mind boggeling….

I really just finished watching a second ago and my mind is completely blank. This entire episode is like when you know a good friend is telling you a fake story. Like you know it’s a lie and you still go “wtf just happened”. It’s so bold of Moffat to reach so deep into the core of Doctor Who to start the season off with a bang.
In some ways he is going completely against what the Doctor should be, on purpose no doubt. Still i feel like only a fool would fall for such a big bluff.

I liked how he started the episode, making the puzzle pieces slowly fall in  place, though I somehow am not a fan of reusing some places. It always starts with looking for the Doctor all over the universe..

Since I feel like the episode was just a huge flashbang granade, I guess I have to wait for next weeks episode to make more sense of it. I wonder if the whole season will work around the “friendship” of Missy and the Doctor plus the Daleks, going into the Doctors past.

I will read your thoughts on it now, looking forward to the next episode,

See you soon, happy theorizing

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What did you guys think of the flashbacks? They are a rather new technique for Doctor Who, aren’t they?

Personally, I’d love for them to expand. I don’t mean they should be overused. But Matt and Capaldi and every future Doctor should film snippets that can be used even after that Doctor regenerated. It adds depth to the story in my opinion.

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@macphisto96 Yes, I know that. As I said I understand the reasons but I am still reminded of what’s missing when I see 11. That’s not to say I don’t like 12. They shouldn’t be compared. And to burden oneself without complaint is really not something only british people do.

@barnable What kind of clues did we get (besides figuring out who Missy is – again well done to those who boldly uncovered it) that helped us figure something out? I don’t mean ‘Yeah, that makes sense in retrospect’, I mean ‘OMG, I can’t believe I’ve read the signs correctly’.
Not all of this season has been dark. Think of Robin Hood or In the Forest of the Night.

BTW, there should be a fairly easy way to find Galifrey. And it is not complicated at all and RIGHT THERE. Apparently all the TARDIS needs is a deep longing for a person or a place and then it will take you there since it knows all of time and space. Why isn’t the Doctor using this feature? Turn off the safeguards. Focus on a person of which he is certain he/she is on Gallifrey after popping them into that pocket universe. Like his mother, right? It was his mother, wasn’t it?
It’s as obvious as getting Rory and Amy back through going back to the same year to a different closeby location and getting them manually. Or if not the same year choose one before or after that – Time is not the boss of the Doctor.

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I liked this episode and I liked all the characters throughout this season. Especially Missy, the computer AI (pardon me, I forgot the actors name;his performance made me chuckle), Clara and PC.

This episode has had some nice moments -I wasn’t fooled for a second that Clara was supposed to be the Doctor (I suppose this scene was created to show how deeply the the Doctor trusts her and opens up to her). I never thought of Danny as a ‘manipulative bully’. No idea where you get that from. If anything look at the poor Danny – how much of his life has been changed because Clara could not focus. She messed with his past and his future, changed it so deeply. HE would have been better off without her. As in probably not dead -reawoken Cyberman. The countdown of the Master has been sooooooo creepy. And exactly the same thing the wheeping angles did at the crush of the byzantium – not nearly as creepy back then.

The most heartbreaking moments of this episode (for me personally) have been the goodbye of Clara and the Doctor and the Doctor who could not find Galifrey. I didn’t even watch the credits so I haven’t seen the trailer (yet). As of now it is just so sad that both of them are lying to make the other one happy. The Doctor dosen’t wan’t Clara to worry about him and vice versa – soooo sad. I’m glad Moffat didn’t have to conjure up other dimensions or distortions in time and space to make it sound reasonable. If this had been indeed the Goodbye of Clara as the main companion I could live with that.
And then the sheer DESPAIR of the Doctor of being utterly alone in the universe- knowing that Clara won’t be running with him anymore since he presumes she’s got Danny. I can’t help myself but to feel sorry for that poor old man. Missy knew he’d cling onto that information with as much hope as he dared. Such a letdown for him….Gah! Thinking about the amount of his despair intensifies the pity.

Since I was now able to see the whole story arc play out like it was supposed to I can honestly say: I like the Doctor, I didn’t especially like the story arc. Too misleading, too little hints. I hope that I am not alone with this opinion and the next season plays a little more along with the audience.

Seeing 11 still reminds me of what has been lost in this incarnation of the Doctor and dearly missing it. Don’t get me wrong I like PC and I grasp the concepts and everything – still, I just miss it everytime I get to see 11.

 

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Okay.

I want to make some predictions for the final episode:

We know that the Master chose Clara. We know he can supervise the Doctor from afar  (bank). We know that Clara would betray the Doctor in order to save Danny.

So the Master and Clara will defnitely meet again in this episode (funny that Clara didn’t recognize him in the morgue…). Clara will betray the Doctor to get back Danny(again). Dannys death was influenced by the Master which is why he can grant him back. The master orchestrated the orient express thing?

 

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What an episode.

What a chilling thought to be left concious of your body when you are dead. Will give me a lot to think about for a loooooooong time. Really freaks me out.

Kudos to the people who solved the Mistress/Master puzzle. *Hands out cookies*

Though I’m slightly dissapointed there is no new villain or someone fresh from the past….. I think I voiced this opinion at the start of the season.

I’m making a bet that Danny Pink will be saved. And again a misleading trailer – which is kinda unfair for people who wanna do guesswork.

 

AND AGAIN, well done for getting the Master right!

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@whogirl I agree with you. Something I can’t put my finger on is missing. PC is doing a great job, good acting skills…. JCs acting was also quite subtle (as in natural/good).

I don’t know why but I don’t have the need to guess along as much. It’s just sitting and waiting what they are going to present us with – no big clues to mole over – no nothing to decipher. The hints they do give are as obvious as “squabbling like an old married couple” (Something that’s not really confirmed but quite obvious.)  or we don’t get all the needed information to guess ahead of the broadcast.

If we had known for example that the Doctor was the Arcitect or anything pointing in that direction we would have tried to figure out what the Doctor would have wanted from a bank, why he didn’t just use the TARDIS… Just misleading and no real clues somehow.

And so many episods are focused on Clara and Danny at least in parts. Also- the trailer for this episode has been quite misleading.

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I don’t know who said it anymore but in one late night reading someone said (I think it was on this episode) he would like to see the Doctor make a choice to sacrifice someone and have the audience agree that it was the right choice, that that would be something he would like to see and I wholeheartedly disagree. This is a kids/family show and I don’t what this to be the moral they pick up from it. If you are into this kind of stuff, watch Sherlock. I already was disgusted by that choice of storytelling. And I really don’t what kind of moral in Doctor Who.

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@barnable Thanks for that.

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@arbutus @purofilion @drben

Yeah after your comments I watched it again and that made me realize how cold 12 is. He is playing his version of 12 perfectly, I don’t have any objections. 11 Is just so much warmer, a quality that the 12th Doctor hardly shows.

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@idiotsavon Sorry the answer is so late. I did a bit of reading (it’s been a few years since school time German lessons) and the idea of Brecht is to have theatre do more than just entertain. Brecht wanted to show social differences to further social and political change. This is especially true for the proletariat.

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Hey,

I just saw a comment under a Youtube video so I don’t know if it is fake or not. BUT He/she said that River Song is starring in episode 4 season 9…. He/she claims to have been in the cast- the comment is from two weeks ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqpZx1USOTI Thats where I have found it and the acc name is PuppahNugget

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I haven’t read it all (yet), but I wanna reply before I forget my thought.

@phaseshift “he lights the fire” That is a flashback to the Day of the Doctor “It is the privilege of lesser man to light the fire/flame”

Quite a lot references to the past in this season. I do wish they would give us more for the story arc. This episode was okay for me – middle field in the rating.

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Liked that episode. Had a feel of ‘the arrow’ and ‘mission impossible’ at some points.

Not confused by anyting, surely a standalone.

The only thing I didn’t like : ‘beat that for a date’ – The Doctor is competing with Mr. Pink. I don’t like that whole boyfriend theme.

Also: When the Doctor gets hugged at 43:36 He rubs his arm uncomfortably. Looks like it hurts or something?

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Has anybody commented on the commical noise when the Doctor puts himself to sleep? That’s rather unusual for DW, isn’t it?

Also: ‘On the other side’ Is a reference to the promised land, the netherspere as well as the more practical restaurant location.

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@bluesqueakpip Man, Moffat knowing Goethe is as surreal to me as Tom Hanks knowing Eisenhüttenstadt (a city in the far east, so far east that we jokingly say it’s west Poland.), a place I did a bike tour to once.

@idiotsavon Hey, that’s what this place is for! Getting new ideas while contemplating other peoples ideas ;D

And to stick with the crossword analogy: I’m the one that gets easily bored by questions nobody needs the answer to and are easy to look up if really needed. I guess they are the most fun when solved with a group of people, thinking together to make it work.

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Just checking in if some new revelations have occured (I usually stop posting after a few days of an episode because there is no new input and I like to speculate with something to back up ideas)  in my absence and I find Faust to be back in the game?! Very surprised and pleased all the same.

Some nice motives @idiotsavon … The real question is : Does Moffat know Faust and/or Goethe? (BTW I think he changed it to heavenbound to underline that ones actions can always influence the future. If she was hellbound it would leave less hope for the reader, I guess. A life lesson, so to say -it’s never to late)

Also, allow yourself the fun to look up old theories… I remember one that referenced egyptian mytology and different stages in dying or something like that and I went ahead and did a search…. ‘Eygptian’ brought up a lot of stuff. Interestingly enough Clara had a ‘Phoenix theme’ (being born, living, dying times infinity) once… not sure might have been as early as Cold war.

@purofilion Did I miss someting? Did you just ‘@’ Christ? XD

 

 

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@saraoswald101 The Doctor would not try to prevent the war. He knows that he couldn’t because of the Destiny trap. Think of Madam Kovarian.

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@craig I don’t think you need to. I’m not even close to having a say in it. I have heard often that the NHS is on the brink of collapsing in my 8 months in London. I was shocked when a Co-worker I accompanied to a GP would not be seen by any Doctor (there were several GPs in that building and hers was off-site) as an emergency and she still had to wait for an hour before an ambulance arrived.
The mother of my boss (she’s been old) got sick and went to the hospital and wasn’t moved around so she lost muscle mass, broke some bone (apparently) and ended up dying to complications…. If I would live in Britain I’d probably fly home to get taken care of xD. But most people seem to prefer the care they can get at home.

@pedant There are many ways the media can influence public opinions. You might wanna take a look at the Agenda Setting Theory and the Framing Theory as an example. There is also a difference between public and private media. Private media is only allowed to exist because public media shoulders the resposibility to inform the masses unbiased. That means no personal opinion is to be included in their coverage. And if it is included it needs to be stricly marked as such. If Rupert Murdoch is to decide all of his media should say that fruit is bad for one’s health (picked something stupid on purpose) and should be avoided all together his private media has every right to write that. Public media however does not have the same liberties. It has to entitle the recipient to form an opinion him-/herself.

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@craig I admit I haven’t spend a lot of time on this subject. As an outsider I’d like Scotland to remain with the rest of Britain just because it keeps everything more stable – less commotion.

And regarding your second video: I don’t know that woman and if she is a well-known spokesperson or not. Something I just noticed is that she provides no facts and figures to it back up. Politics (other than Fiction like the Doctor) need to back up everything they say (don’t tell me I’m naive and that is hardly ever that case and that you can spin facts and figures … I don’t want to get into a deep politics debate @anyone who might see that point) with cold facts (as in statistics, developments over time and so on).
I don’t just randomly believe things anyone might be saying. Who said it (backround), why did they say it (motives), to whom did they say it (target group), who is interested in the outcome (powerplay)? Basically can you trust that source ;D
But as I said I am an outsider and it is more a general rambling than aimed at what that woman said.
_____
This came to my mind:
1961, Walter Ulbricht, the Chairman of the State Council of the GDR announced: “No one has any intention of building a wall.” We all know what happened ;D

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<3 11 Tribute

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@craig Hi, I see your point. That would be bad.

How about an @Mods and an @all which just refers to regular posters? Where you can opt in if you want to.

Just an idea, but I do understand if you don’t think it necessary.

I also found something regarding the traffic, just a few extra snippets of information, but maybe some are interested.
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thedoctorwhoforum.com

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@chickenelly Moffat got his budget cut? Reason?

@juniperfish Hello you! Still not well? It’s about time you kick that thing in the b***.  Yeah, I’d also say it’s been ‘Dad skills’ -we also know what he did. He did it to himself in Deep Breath, remember?

@jimbomcmaster We will have to wait and see if he is still bothered by those questions. He definitely accepted Claras instructions.
‘This of course confirms definitely without doubt that the Doctor is Danny Pink’s dad.’ How? I disagree.
Regarding not telling the Doctor: Clara knew she had done a big no-no. She is not supposed to be there. At all. This knowledge could change his character, changing his way in life. It’s a very sensible time for the Doctor and maybe made him what he is. Any knowledge could change him and the way he behaves.

@bluesqueakpip Danny Pink could also refer to his grandma not being well with family stuff.
Rupert is German for ‘Bright, Famous, Shining’? Shouldn’t I know that name then? Never heard of Rupert, the only Rupert I know is Rupert Grint so I thought it would be a British name. I went digging a bit and found out that it is a version of the name Robert or Ruprecht (both of which I have heard)… just some trivia I guess…
I agree that ancronyms can be a bit bothersome with over 50 years of history and content.
@bluesqueakpip @fatmaninabox I do think it is the same building. The ceilings where high in the barn and it could have been used differently when the Doctor was a child. It’s also not a complete second level, just a small part to stack hay, apparently.
We also don’t know how much time has passed now and then (the Doctor fought quite a while in the Time War). Climate change ;D So maybe the land looked very different back then…

@serahni I first thought it was awesome too!
In regards to your broken brain: In the video @wolfweed posted Jenna Coleman refers to it as a Moff-circle. (Whats first the chicken or the egg? Another example is the fez.)

@pedant ‘But more significantly this is the second time (at least) that Clara has very specifically stated that she does want to know when she dies (and to a Sontaran 12 years is a good innings).’ She said ‘which I do not need a preview of. So it’s the opposite to what you thought, isn’t it?

@purofilion So what do you think?

@saraoswald101 What confused you?
And Clara could go to Gallifrey (or as @thommck said, is it even Gallifrey) because the Doctor turned off the safeguards.

@fletchthe2nd We don’t know. Left open.

@whogirl I am also one of the lucky ones where there is no space under the bed.

@phaseshift @herisson Okay, my appologies then. I do think it is a bit revealing. Nethersphere is a lot more straight forward than Promised land – makes me think of Hades.

I hope I forgot nobody. Keep you theories coming =D

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@herisson Hello and welcome, I hope you have a great time here.
The original name of Missy is something that is considered a spoiler here. You are free to talk about it on the spoilers thread. I wish I hadn’t known.
The discussions in the episode threads are made up by content that is shown on television only.

@Mods @phaseshift @fatmaninabox @craig and so on, could you edit that small bit out?

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@whisht @fatmaninabox Glad I’m not alone……

It’s like… And they did… And the Doctor….. And Clara…. And the child… and crying! …. And just….. awesome. No coherent thought. I am not even sure if I should watch it again or let it sink in first…. such a huge difference in what we know about the Doctor!

And I had 2 surprises (The helmet and the barn and what she said there).

@wolfweed And they said it’s for children ;D

@thommck You forgot that Clara has been in that barn before. No relation necessary.

@whisht Probably both but I think more loathed. The trolls…. so many trolls who can feast on that. I personally am glad that I watched it unspoiled because it will be everywhere soon. And I think Moffat did what he is supposed to do. Think bold, give the show new directions. Good job Moffat for creating so much to talk and argue about. Just imagine him writing that. He must have not been able to stop giggling (as in laugh up one’s sleeve).

Also I couldn’t help but think of those who did not want Danny/Denny/Danni/Denni/Dani/Deni (are there more possibilities?) Pink to become what is now certain to happen.

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What the actual f*ck.

 

All I can up with right now. This episode will be ranked in importance in line with the Doctors wife.

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Could we have a @all that links everybody? It’s way more effective than listing each single name when you want a general opinion. Is that a very complicated request?

BTW how is the traffic?

And as always thanks to the hard working Mods.

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YES! I am glad someone agrees! @whisht @purofilion <3

I think you missunderstood me. I am not saying that @arbutus. I am not saying that that means they are romatically involved. I am just saying they reference each other like that in that episode, much like in the relationship you described. They are just very close to each other, understand and trust each other.

I don’t know if it is a Claricle and I haven’t considered it, might be though.

I had another thought. The Doctor said: ‘I’ve made may mistakes. And it is about time that I did something about that.’ SO far we haven’t seen him acting on that promise, have we? (+Gallifrey is somewhat vanished from view two, thats a bit odd as the Doctor recognized a new goal….. but thats just btw)
I just watched the Name of the Doctor [and realized how much I love River and 11 (not as an item but in general)] and I think that the mistake he  reffers to are the consequences of jumping into the time stream. It might have influenced to us unknown things?
Who ended up in that timestream?

• The Doctor
• GI
• Clara
• and bear with me River (because she was still liked to Clara as she went in

So my guess MIGHT be that in that timestream something was created by that interference. Who in the WORLD would know the Doctor better than this creation?
Earlier I said that Missy reminded me of the Dreamlord, who turned out to be the darker side of the Doctor. What if the evil/dark-ish elements of the Doctor and the GI are tamed by the infuences of River and Clara who obviously would do anything (including sacrificing themselves) to keep the Doctor alive.
Missy is talking about him a bit possesive, with loads of self confidence though, isnt’t she. A bit like River… not saying she is possesive but she did say that she lives for the days when she sees the Doctor. The ‘he loves me so much’ was obviously fake and something a villain would say, so that would fit the GI….
Maybe it is a bit too much like a super-hero thing like “the things your actions create”.

If Missy really is connected to Clara AND was the woman in the shop then we have another BAD WOLF thing on our hands. Hopefully no repetition of that.

Am I just rambling? Any of it good? Did i miss something that makes this theory impossible?

@purofilion There can’t have been a lot of planning regarding the call. He had a few minutes only.  That’s probably what you meant anyway.

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GUYS GUYS GUYS GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How did I not see this? Has anyone seen it? GUYS! Tell me what you think!

I just rewatched the episode to make sure I give an informed answer to @mikeofmcr AND and at the end, just before 11 calls – the Doctor says ‘You’d better get that, it might be your boyfriend‘!!!
And then we all got distracted by the lovely, awesome 11.
And mere minutes, seconds later we heard Missy call the Doctor her boyfriend. 11 was a distraction! Imagine those scenes without 11.

12 calls 11 Claras boyfriend and Missy calls the Doctor her boyfriend. There must be a connection! It MUST be a hint! It MUST!

What do you think?

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Hello @mikeofmcr!

Regarding your first idea: She does know the paternoster gang and they know her. What made you think they don’t know each other? I can’t see it.

And regarding the second: 11 and 12 had no contact. 11 ist just imagining the situation and remembering past regenerations. He has experienced quite a few. He also knows Clara through their journeys together and the reactions of various companions (Rose had trouble getting it into her head, too, hadn’t she?) . He wanted to make sure that some old bond remained to his former life, I imagine. Good “old” 11.

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Concerning the screwdriver (and also the arrow a bit):

I think I remember that they (someone in the big DW machine) said not everything the Doctor does happens on screen. It helps with your imagination if you keep wondering what happened, making up solutions/stories. They (whoever they were) said it has been those stories that kept DW alive during the gap. So if missing bits/better solutions were just an production error or not, they surely made everyone think about it, inventing bits and pieces.

I think I like that about DW, as do we all – the theorising that comes along with it. All I’m trying to say – Even though the arrow might be silly and the screwdriver should be returned, it makes DW in some ways what it is (I think I remember that the community found the giant wasp in 10’s time a bit awful too….).

@wolfweed I can see that too. Might be due to production though? Poor chaps had no idea you would freeze the frame and analyze it. How did you see it in the first place? They would have pointed it out more clearly for the kids if it were important, don’t you think? Have there ever been so miniscule hints to a future story?

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@Tennantlove9090 Clearly you have to call the Tardis incl. the Doctor. He did the same thing, just without the bombs and snakes and stuff.

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@purofilion Remember the Gretchenfrage? That also had something to do with religion if you remember.  Just as you said:

“I liked Goethe’s Gretchen parallel. I think that the 1st question fits too, the Dr is a change agent with respect to the Dalek.”

 

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@whisht ” if I say that I see now say (how/) I see why” that was confusing.

“The Hoff” Is no big thing in Germany to anyone I know. I didn’t know about that thing till I was 16 or so. One song, big deal. But some Germans might think differently- I do not speek for all- maybe older/elderly people.

 

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Hello everyone.

Rather quiet in here so far- I am sure there is more to come soon.

I fell like most here so far: enjoyable, not brilliant. It had a bit of a fan-made feel to me O.ô. Maybe I am spoiled by the movies…. I was more aware that they were just acting than I usually am, especially had that feeling with Robin and his gang.

I liked the squabbling between the Doctor and Robin. And the keychain scene was hilarious.

Just some things that stood out for me regarding the story arc:

First time we have not seen Missy, I was sure the defeated man would end up with her too. Maybe they think we get the idea and don’t want to bore us with repetition.

The robots who wanted to reach the promised land (nice spot that robots seem to want to reach it @bluesqueakpip – but Gretchen reached it too) had a cross as their aim. Clearly also related to church. There are some of religious motives around (in this season and before e.g Papal Mainframe) if you think about it, let’s see if it is continiued next week…

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Hello everybody.

I seem to be one of the few in his forum who thought this episode was just ‘meh’. Not terribly bad but not really outstanding either.

I can’t put my finger on why. I don’t think PC is another league as an actor than 9, 10&11 (as someone said in this thread). To me this episode is a bit of what people complained about in “JttCotT”. Some shots where obviously created that way to save money, hopefully for other episodes. I really hope that the Doctor does not return to what it used to be let’s say 1965 because those episodes are a pain in the a** to watch if you didn’t watch them as a child back then. (Please take this statement with a pinch of salt… -had a feeling I needed to include that)
The music in the intro is getting on my nerves already, not a grower for me so far.
But all in all that’s okay, I have experienced it before and know that Doctor Who is customized for a huge amount of people and it is therefore impossible to please them all – all the time.

@confusedpolarity Your idea that Missy are Mistakes collected by the Doctors consciousness is a good one and reminds me of another spin of the Dreamlord.

@arbutus Rory said once in Vampires in Venice that the Doctor makes people dangerous to themselves when he is around.

@scaryb He could not have saved the brother because he needs to stay relative to their time. It’s the same reason he could not fetch the Master in the End of Time.

@janetteb Your one post asking if Clara would like Doctor Who reminded me of one episode of Buffy were she is told she made it all up and is kept in a psychiatric facility for some reason….

@devilishrobby He didn’t say better Dalek. He said good Dalek.

@fivefaces ‘A good man goes to war’ -> That was 11, not 9. I had the same thought. They already said that the Doctor was a good man. But that he needs many rules to be one, just as you said.

‘She is my carer. She cares so I don’t have to’ Is a pretty good line to start if you want to characterize this new Doctor. Not explaining the Ross spared him some despair but gave him hope for a second, that was kind of kind of the Doctor in a way, don’t you think? But then again I don’t think that that was the reasoning of the Doctor.
Also funny enough we had a similar shot in S5E2 The beast below (slimy stuff when they were fed to the whale). The Doctor (12) even says ‘behold the belly of the beast’. Is this going to be a season that repeats stuff to qualify the use of the same face? A lot of repetitions ‘it rings a bell’? We have made out quite a lot of that going on in just two episodes, don’t you think?

• The similar shot of heaven/the two streams facility
• Missy who reminds us of other characters (though, granted, various ones)
• Same face used twice (if that really was Matt’s face in the first episode, that was used twice too)
• That thing that leaked radiation reminded a few of us of the tears in time and space

I am sure we have noticed more but you get the point. Maybe this happens on purpose? Just as some were angry that Clara seemed to save the Doctor every time and it turned out to be the point of it all. Maybe the repetition is that, too.

P.S: There is one more thing and thankfully I could still edit to add it:

The name of the woman who is sacrificing herself so Clara can get up there quick enough: Her first name is Gretchen. There is someting in Faust I (from Goethe) called Gretchenfrage. Wikipedia does not have an English entry, so I don’t know if you have heard about it. However there is a Wiktionary entry stating this:

Compound of Gretchen (diminutive of the given name Margarete) and Frage “question”. In reference to Goethe’s <i>Faust</i> (published 1808), where the character of Gretchen asks the protagonist, who is secretly in league with the devil, <i>wie hast du’s mit der Religion?</i> “what is your take on religion?”.

There are three takes on the Gretchenfrage:

1. A question as to the addressee’s religiosity or belief in God.
2. Any question going directly to the core of an issue.
3. A crucial question that usually has a difficult or unpleasant answer.

Is this just a coincidence or did the writers of this episode actually know about it? ‘Is he mad or is he right?’ ‘Is this worth it?’  Both of these questions fit the last two descriptions. What are the odds that character got that name by accident?

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@bluesqueakpip Yes, I know that. I loved them in this episode, I have no grudge against them. I’m just saying I wouldn’t mind a break from them now.

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I don’t have much to add right now.

Sorry that I got it wrong @whisht. Also echoing you in asking ‘why’ @j0hn52 . And: What was the last episode you did like?
Also @whisht Somehow I am really intruiged by your idea:’Would other AIs also go to the Mainframe to ‘die’ (ships such as the Madame Pompadour, the Library(?) etc….).’ I mean the library knows everthing, right? It would know how the two streams facility looks like and how it works. River has shown she can change the reality in dreams ‘disgracefully’… But it CAN’T be! Can it? Furthermore she always left the Doctor messages so he would come to her ‘grafitied the oldest cliff face in the universe’-‘you wouldn’t answer your phone…’ She was trained to kill him once. And she knows his life well enough to influence it as she pleases(‘River always knew’), she left with a last ‘spoilers!’ … But it CAN’T be! Her story is finished…..

Maybe we will get some new ideas if we sort out who Missy can’t be: I say it is not his daughter from the reproduction machine(10’s time).

I’m surprised that I am alone with slowly being fed up the the Paternoster Gang (only for now…. just give it some time to recover).

Sorry @tygerhawks, I didn’t notice anything.

What is going over your head @phoebe-phire I’m sure most here are able to help you to get up to speed (too bad you didn’t like 11 as he is my Doctor, but to each their own, there are ENOUGH to choose from ^^)? I am glad you have a positive attitude towards 12 though.

@pedant Nice to see your input.

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I like how the discussion got started again immediately =D! And some of the replies are just so long that I am sure I will miss bits and pieces I wanted to comment on while reading your opinions.

It is really interesting to me that there is such a wide array of opinions! Usually most in this forum agree on the general tone of the episode. This is not a love or hate thing, even in this forum most had different highlights. While some of us thought that Matt was unnecessary others shed a tear or two.
And while I thought that most of the “Yes it is still the Doctor – Clara getting schooled as a stand in for the audience” was unnecessary there were also people who really liked that part (@ConfusedPolarity) and people who still haven’t let go of 11, let alone RTD (@phoebe-phire). I mean, come on, that was years ago! “Timey-whimey” is much harder to do because you have to leave traces so it stays plausible in hindsight. I am sure Rowling could have put all the important information in one book (Or imagine Tolkien doing that!) but that was hardly the point in telling the story. Which is also exactly what we are trying to pick up before the big revelation?

I think in general this episode was more focused on the relationships. What I would be interested to hear from the disappointed people: What was the last episode you REALLY, REALLY liked (try to keep it within 11’s range though; he really had enough good ones to pick one)?

Yes @confusedpolarity I thought he really abandoned her and used this time to create a plan to solve the situation in general, trusting on her getting out on her own.
So surprising that people think that the droid jumped out on his own. @janetteb Do you really think the Doctor would not do it? Just think of Pompeii, Dinosaurs on a Spaceship or a Town Called Mercy.

@phaseshift Like most of us I was looking forward to more of the Paternoster Gang, too. However I feel like the last episode really was enough for a longer time. I don’t want them to become an old thing in Doctor Who. They should always be new and refreshing. More screen time for them would just make them less special at this point IMHO.
This might be out of place and tell me if it is but try to handle negative comments a bit more graciously. Kinda reminded me of a Town Called Mercy where Amy says ‘you’ve got to be better than this’.
Again @phaseshift I think that new face is a symbol for hope. He brought hope to that one family. So he tells himself even in the worst circumstances there is hope? What do you think?

@whisht You are quite hard on the female Doctor part. I am pretty sure that, if they were to decide it should be a woman, there are more than enough talented women out there to take on the challenge.

@purofilion Why did your household think it was boring? Also, I think you might be the first to say that you love the new soundtrack. Yes, YouTube says it is Fred Astaire (ignore the graphics):

(P.S.: Thanks for making it a great place, too)

@wolfweed You can take River off that list. Clara has met her and would have recognized her as the woman in the shop. My money is on @Bluesquakpip with it being the Master as a female regeneration as a way to test out how the audience would react. Just seems to be a very plausible explanation. The BBC has to think practical. However it would be a bit dull if we were to see the Master again, wouldn’t it? I mean, come on! Something new and exciting! Maybe someone who is helping the Master with something, doing his deeds? Moffat has said often enough that he wants to keep the audience on their toes – someone completely new would be good for that. I think I just talked myself out of the Master-idea, didn’t I?

@fivefaces Interesting point that the Moment might be behind this? But why would it want to harm the Doctor? It helped him do the right thing with Gallifrey.

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@wolfweed AH! The newspaper bit! I agree that was sooooo funny xD!
OMG YES! I missed it, the stream was buffering right there, must have jumped over it! This is SO good! What a script!
Regarding the skin: I think the hot-air balloon was made out of skin =/

Which genious found the two stream facility? Hint? Or just good shooting location? Kudos to you for finding that.

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@jimthefish @fatmaninabox I just love the internet =D High praise from Moffat in that article. I am also very proud that I picked it up.

Also, I think people who were dissapointed probably had higher expectations? I, personally, do not think what Moffat comes up with is bad quality content.

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Okay, the intro I have seen on YouTube is not completely the same, but there are some similar aspects, what do you think?

Seriously @fatmaninabox????? That is AWESOME!
I agree @jimthefish =)
@wolfweed Walloped? Whats that? Clara wonders who Amy is? When? How did I miss that?! And also: How is “Skin!” a good bit?

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@devilishrobby @whisht Of course it must be okay to discuss the episode in the thread of the episode! People who do not want to be spoiled should really stay away from this part of the forum.
@miapatrick Yes, it is good that it has not been shown. But I think we all know it happened. If it were in the episode we would have a Sherlock situation though. Might be a bit much for a children television show. The Doctor gets the benefit if the doubt.
I do not agree with the ‘Sorry Sorry’ bit. I thought 11’s were sincere.

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Sorry to hear that @zelah10! Then again Doctor Who has to serve a lot of different tastes and maybe they will focus more on yours in the next episode.

I made some notes on napkins while I was watching and am writing this during my first rewatch. Sorry, but my thoughts won’t be completely sorted. But I will try to stay in order of the episode with my observations. For now I will only speak about things that stood out to me.

• I definitely got goose bumps during the intro. I love how they used the Clockwork elements. I liked the music of 11 a bit better though (is it a bit closer to the original @old folks? -just kidding). AND I swear I have seen that before on YouTube! This was not the first time I saw that intro!
• The ‘blame the English’ bit was funny to me though the Scottish might have been offended? Especially with that vote for independence.
• I did not like that Clara got scolded /schooled! The whole episode kind of echoed that. Lots of people (as we have seen with “on the sofa” comments) have used the break to celebrate Matt Smith and make peace with the change “Times change and so must I”. When you have reached that stage where you can accept it as it is and Clara (in place for the viewer) still gets scolded/schooled it is a bit … well it got on my nerves a bit. Maybe it helps younger children? I didn’t like it much.
• Amelia Pond would have jumped in that river!
• He brought hope to that family. Did he tell himself that there is hope?
• The ad placement was so funny! “On the other side” and the conversation where they realize that they both did not do it.
• I would have NEVER expected that screwdriver joke from Doctor Who – although in that kind of joke there were often screwdrivers involved, weren’t there? Last time in Crimson Horror? “Did the screwdriver …hit something” LMFAO
• What the hell he is leaving her behind!?!?! Leaving Clara like that! My first reaction: Are they TRYING to make the Doctor unlikeable?!?!?!?!!? 11 would have done something! Anything! He would have not left her! My second reaction: BRAVO CLARA!!!! So proud of her! My third reaction: Wow! Nice turn of events.
• I find the whole concept of body parts a bit revolting. Double meaning of exchanged parts! We can even see a reflection of the Doctor. He has lost himself a bit.
• Poor, dark Doctor. He is painted darker than before. He is doing the same thing as he did before, but this time with a clear emphasis on the immorality of it. How can one not feel pity in that moment?
• WTF?!?!?!?!?!!? (all punctuation marks needed) Matt Smith! <3! What a tear jerker! Nearly cried! Seeing him when you don’t expect him was at least as bad as the goodbye, if not worse. Still the same thing though. Trying to persuade someone who is already ready to accept what must happen.
• Nobody discussed the hanging phone receiver! I thought it was just something that happened in all the mess that was Trenzalore.
• “I’m not sure you got a vote!” Loved that dynamic.
• Telephone number and advert, both being pointed out to us very deliberately. Clearly this is what they want us to theorize about.
• That woman, so creepy (and clearly the one who kept Clara and the Doctor together). -> In a world for the dead? -> A disguise for someone? -> Was someone other than the Master so interested in the Doctor? My first thought was the Master though. I am also thinking a bit of River, but that can’t be, her story is closed. I also felt that way with Tasha Lem.
• I love that we get to see more of the life in Victorian London. Each character gets a new layer, especially Jenny though, I feel.

I am sure there is more, but so far these are my first impressions. I am curious what the rest of the forum will have to say to this episode.

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I am glad so many of you told us where you will be and how you are going to enojoy the new episode! I will be thinking of you when I watch it here at home in front of my computer with the stream crashing every 5 seconds (like @miapatrick, but with more crashes i presume)!

I am still very excited, last (few) hour(s) to get behind me. I hope all of you have a spendid time and I am really looking very much forward to all your new theories!

May the season begin! I hope most of us will like it!

@wolfweed that eye-picture reminds me of a spider somehow…. and it’s a bit scary… probably because of the spider thing.

@craig, yeah, you are right. And I guess he could always come back to exact that time once he found a solution, but 11 could have done that too….

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@bluesqueakpip I would hate if they would take the easy way out. What a letdown that would be. And it is supposed to be the only thing that remained from the TARDIS exploding. Moffat can do better than this.

I AM getting positively EXCITED though! FINALLY new input in the Whoniverse. And hopefully the explanation how Capaldi could have played different roles in Doctor Who.

How are you spending the last few hours dear forum? @craig, @bluesqueakpip, @jimthefish, @wolfweed, @barnable, @purofilion, @scaryb (if you have the time), @chickenelly, @janetteb, @arbutus, @thekrynoidman, @fatmaninabox, @whisht and basically @ all 1493 members in this forum.

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Thanks @craig =)

Yeah I kept an eye on the forum just like @chickenelly (welcome back ;D), being more of a lurker now and then. I tried to log in once, the forum wouldn’t let me so I’m glad it worked out now.

@wolfweed and other informants have done a great job collecting everything that concerns Doctor Who, this site is a great archive. That’s how I got wind of the huge leak, a week too late though, when I went hunting for it the BBC has made sure that all the links were dead (all but torrents, which I do not touch) – I would have loved a peak at a script or an unfinished cut just to see the work that will go into it before it is officially released. How come the BBC can’t manage to keep it together though? This happens way too often in my opinion. By now they should have learned from their mistakes.

Cool that you get to see it in cinema @chickenelly , I will watch the stream this time and hope that everything doesn’t collapse under the traffic that I expect to be there. Also, I just finished watching the One Show and know what you mean. All in all both of them don’t seem very into it, do they?

It will be shown in 26 cities in Germany, some of them have several screenings, so the original ones must be sold out. Even though I will watch it at home I am still excited that it is a simulcast again <3!

I am also very much looking forward to all the new clues since Moffat had made sure we start with a clean slate. How will the Doctor be able to leave Christmas now? Technically nothing has changed, he has only gotten younger again – There will be new attacks on Christmas, won’t there? Are they saying everyone in the universe who wanted to harm Trenzalore was killed by the Doctor by now, the oncoming storm?

Other than that I am sure the Doctor will have more of a childish delight when he sees new places, since he spend hundreds of years in the same place.

I am sure more of us will resurface to discuss the new episodes 😉

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