In the Forest of the Night

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    Mudlark @mudlark


    I think that our way of writing, our very language and our immersion in language causes us to create scenery close to the modern, classical heart .

    Our language then creates a studied art, a subdued world, free of diabolical agencies and spontaneity.

    I think that I understand what you mean, but I am not sure that I agree.  Language, as Tolkien pointed out in his essay ‘On Fairy-Stories’, is what enables the imagination and gives it form;  it gives names to things which we have never seen and never will see, and adjectives to describe them and the realms they inhabit.  Even in a world shaped by the Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries, in which we are encouraged to classify things and ideas into neat compartments and to shape the natural world into ordered farms and gardens, language still has that power if we choose to use it so; and the English language is well suited to this, with its huge and eclectic  vocabulary, its flexibility and its general lack of discipline – a ‘wild child’ of the Indo-European family.  If we limit ourselves and our imaginations, it is not for lack of linguistic tools.

    It is true that there has been a tendency to prettify and sanitise the old stories and, increasingly since the 19th century, to regard them as being primarily or solely for children, but I think that in England, at least, the main problem is that our surviving store of early myths, legends and traditional tales is relatively impoverished.  The Welsh have a wealth of early tales, some of which were written down in the medieval period and translated in The Mabinogion, and others which can be glimpsed in Geoffrey of Monmouth’s History of the Kings of Britain.  The Irish are even more fortunate, partly because their Iron Age culture and bardic tradition was not disrupted by a Roman occupation and Anglo-Saxon acculturation and partly because the old legends and folk tales were kept alive and immediate as an oral tradition by traditional storytellers, some of whom were still practising their art in the late 19th century.

    The inheritors of the Anglo-Saxon tradition can claim little more than Beowulf as their own, although I think that for many of us, even so, the imaginative legacy of the Germanic folk tales and of the myths and legends of an older northern world, such as those recorded in the  Elder Edda and Poetic Edda and some of the Icelandic sagas, have a greater resonance than the mythology of the Mediterranean world (which we tend to think of in any case in the somewhat tidy and bloodless form in which it was generally recorded by Classical Roman writers).


    Ixion @ixion

    It was okay…I think they could have cut out the children completely and it would have been even better. Just have the story about the Doctor and Clara trying to find a missing student who may have some connection to the forest – short and sweet. I thought the child actors did rather well for what was given to them, but their presence (specifically the sitcomesque banter scenes) bogged down the story too much. I was also uninterested in the final scene. It felt rushed, similar to the ending of Robot of Sherwood. I hate to sound nitpicky, too, but the CGI took me out of it a bit. You can get away with bad CGI if you have the monsters partially hidden, or if it serves a specific purpose (making the Boneless in Flatline look odd and not quite there), but here I feel I was expected to ‘ooh’ and ‘ahh’ at the wolves and tiger, which I did not do in the slightest. On the positive side, the set up was good and I was legitimately interested in the mystery surrounding the little girl. I just felt it could have been so much more.

    JimmyP @jimmyp

    @ixion – just FYI, some people don’t watch the trailers and count them as spoilers, so if you want to discuss the one at the end of this there’s a blog specifically to do so. Not having a go at all, just wanted to make you aware.

    @craig @phaseshift and other lords of the administration, perhaps you could edit the last post for people who don’t want discussion of the trailers in here?

    Craig @craig

    @jimmyp Have done so.

    @ixion Please feel free to discuss the trailer for next week on the Trailers blog.

    Ixion @ixion

    @jimmyp Oops, sorry! Thank you for telling me before anyone read it. 🙂

    TheBrainOfMoffat @thebrainofmoffat

    I was also very taken aback when I saw the huge negative response to this episode, especially considering that Kill the Moon seemed to have been praised about as much as this one is being scorned (moreso, actually). As some others upthread have elaborated upon, I also felt that the bad science in this episode was excusable, unlike in Kill the Moon. The child actors were also more convincing than Courtney was (“Miss, can we go home now? I’m scared,” she says with a straight face that doesn’t show the slightest bit of fear.), as well as more entertaining.

    While I don’t see In the Forest of the Night as being very memorable, I don’t think it was bad at all. Perhaps not quite what we were wanting right before the finale, however. I was hoping for something more similar to Turn Left, which merged quite nicely into the Series 4 two-part finale. Still, I enjoyed it, and I think having the finale right after two tense episodes like Mummy on the Orient Express and Flatline might have been a bit too much suspense in a row. This episode could have turned out a bit better, but I don’t feel compelled to complain at all. Kill the Moon will retain my award of “Worst Episode of the Season”, and it falls into a category quite nicely with Fear Her and Love & Monsters — that category being “Worst of New Who”.

    I really enjoyed Clara’s interactions with Danny and the Doctor.

    Mudlark @mudlark

    Erratum for any pedants out there:

    In my post # 34152 above, for Poetic Edda, read Prose Edda  (the  Elder Edda and the Poetic Edda are alternative names for the same book)

    The Krynoid Man @thekrynoidman


    I said interesting not important.

    Arbutus @arbutus

    Perfect early Sunday morning: men of the house happily sleeping in, cat fed and back asleep, cup of tea, and Doctor Who!   🙂  Sorry to bore, but once again, I really enjoyed that story. I felt completely engaged by the mystery of the forest, the little bits of character development that were slotted in, and the way the story developed. The only time I was really taken out of it was with Missy’s brief appearance (I find I am actually pretty bored with her).

    I thought the children were very believable, having had a lot to do with kids that age, and “gifted and talented” made me smile. I liked the little boy’s remark that he was getting scared and that always made him forget his anger management! Danny was great, calm and in charge. I liked the manner in which he took the revelation that Clara had been lying, as though he perhaps understood her better than she realized. I was also quite happy with his revelation that some people really don’t want the “big adventure”, but just the “smaller adventure” of everyday life.

    I loved the moment of realization, Nelson’s column appearing in the middle of the forest, and the constant reminders of bits of London appearing here and there. And the realization that it isn’t just London, but the whole earth, that is now covered in forest. I loved the green planet in space. I liked the Doctor reminding Clara about the zoo, and that of course there were wolves in London.

    And the whole “This is my planet too” scene was beautifully done. Looking forward to second viewing. Meanwhile, some comments on comments.

    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    I know I said this earlier in the thread but have now watched the episode fore a second time and I am more and more convinced that the Danny Pink “arc” has been a massive red herring trawled infont of us by that master of deception Steven Moffat.

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @juniperfish   I too loved the TARDIS door scene. I have never tired of Capaldi’s brilliance throughout this series. Good question about Missy, what exactly was it that surprised her? Clara choosing to save the Doctor and die herself? Clara choosing Danny over the Doctor? Or Clara going in the TARDIS at the end and not staying with Danny?

    @purofilion    Yes, I loved the Doctor with the kids in this, and even the Doctor with Danny. This is a calmer, less angry Doctor than we saw a few episodes back. Also, this:     In a way, it was more thought provoking than an episode that is ‘monster only’ or ‘fantasyPlus’. It was drama at its best in 45 minutes with an amazing backdrop.     This reminds me of Listen, where there was no monster. Myself, I don’t need a monster, just an interesting story. I found this interesting and engaging. Is it me, or have the stories on the whole been less “timey-wimey” this series?

    @melloyello    to make up for what we have had to endure     What you have had to endure, surely? I realize you probably don’t mean to sound as if you are speaking for everyone, but it does get my back up when I read this kind of comment. Personally, I have really loved this series.       It seems the whole episode was created and shown just to set up Missy’s response of being surprised.      That’s interesting, because to me, Missy’s scene was the bit the jarred. It felt a bit irrelevant, I didn’t really want to go there at that moment.

    @phileasf     I’ll just say that it’s pretty amazingly irresponsible to have the Doctor say, in effect, that people who hear voices should stop taking their prescribed medication.    That actually didn’t bother me, because I felt it was more likely referencing the ongoing debate about the over-diagnosis and over-medication of things like ADHD in children, which is actually a big problem. I like your bonkers theory, though! It fits with a lot of things very well. @purofilion’s elaboration fills it out even further. I’m not sure how it would tie up with Missy, though, because I’m pretty sure that she must be more than just a Clara-invented saviour of dead people.

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @blenkinsopthebrave    Yes. I really enjoyed this, all on it’s own. Someone earlier suggested that it was only interesting as part of the arc, but I disagree. I enjoyed the story for it’s own sake, and felt that the character development was touched on only lightly.

    @zeitgeis   I’m not sure that we have really learned anything that we didn’t already know. We knew that Clara was lying to Danny about traveling with the Doctor because she didn’t think he would approve. I didn’t get from this episode that he ever “insisted that she stop”. So I don’t think that anything about the lying or Danny is new information. What is new is that he now knows that she has lied, and his response (so far) has been very measured.

    @mudlark    I loved your post about English and the Anglo-Saxon/Old Icelandic mythological tradition. @purofilion’s view as a Classicist probably mirrors how a lot of university-educated Anglos would have viewed literature in the earlier twentieth century, before Tolkien came along and re-popularized the Germanic world. I have had the fabulous experience of hearing the medievalist Ben Bagby perform Beowulf in bardic style, and he turned a concert hall into a mead-hall with the single word “Hwaet!” It was astonishing. Ancient English mythology is so powerful, and it’s really a shame that people aren’t exposed to it from an earlier age, when it could capture the imagination as fully as the later English traditions (like Robin Hood) have done. Hm. Maybe the Doctor could visit early medieval Scandinavia?  🙂

    @ WhoGirl   @thebrainofmoffat  We have seen this kind of story positioning before. Rather than Turn Left leading to The Stolen Earth/Journey’s End, this was more like The Lodger and The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang. Of course, whether you like this “calm before the storm” approach is a matter of personal taste!

    TheBrainOfMoffat @thebrainofmoffat

    @arbutus I had actually been thinking of the two episodes with Craig while I was writing that post! I really did like them, although I must admit that the second could have been better (it was a “the power of love” episode).

    I like either approach. But see, I only started watching DW as it came out with The Snowmen. Before that, I had breezed through all six series of New Who in a single month (being unemployed gives one such time). Things went really fast for me because I was watching it all pretty much back-to-back. Maybe Series 8 just seems too slow to me. I dunno. Still enjoying it. I think I would group it with Series 4, 5, 6, and the 2009 Tennant specials, as having most of my favorite episodes. Series 1,2,3, and 7 were pretty bland for me.

    soundworld @soundworld

    I absolutely loved it!  I’m surprised by the amount of  negative comment.  ‘Rewilding’ is quite a theme just now in ecology, so it was wonderful visually to see that concept of London taken over by giant forest (and a shame, IMHO, so see it disappear just as quickly – I’d like to see the forest stay, and people learn to live with the forest and the notion of ‘the wild’ – but thats just my personal vision).

    @mudlark I love Tolkien’s essay ‘On Fairy Stories’ and his defence of the need for fantasy.  I like how he writes about the power of archetypes tying into our imagination so we produce the scene in our heads and flesh it out from our own experience, when he mentions ‘the tree’ or ‘the valley’.  (NB from memory – I read it about 20 years ago but it made an impression!)

    I too grew up reading the Scandinavian and celtic myths and stories, which fuelled my young imagination.

    I liked that the menace was underdone, thats not what this story was about.  Not all stories are about the great menace.
    Thank you @phaseshift for your defence, I was going to write something similar that the inside of a forest is one of the greatest natural protectors, and the biggest threat to this planet is deforestation.  It was a great concept.

    I also liked the Doctor’s message about listening (listen!) to the children, or to people who are off the wall and different, who are tuned into somewhere different to the norm – doesn’t make them mad, it might make them crucial.

    Anonymous @

    ahaha brilliant I awake and read more and we have Beowulf.   Oooh I love a good discussion about language: rubs hands with glee!!


    Yes, I see your point -well, your whole world view there! I guess in my poorly expressed ‘ragamuffin’ view of language of the Western world I was attempting to say that the …here we go….the Greeks.. ( sorry: them again!) used to have so many many words for so many things. I now begin to see that the bardic tradition of the Welsh (and the Irish: I can see how I might have annoyed people), something with which I am unfamiliar may be similar.

    As for the Romans, you’re right: bloodless indeed; they had no way of working out their repressions and anxieties but the Greeks, those quiet, placid and erudite masters were free from such belief: their bachae, a purely carnal event mirrors their belief in the need to ‘let go’, as it were.

    This society had a language with 40 words for fire! 50 words for ‘march’ and and more for ‘turn’. Their stories are huge, rebellious, vile at times but always truly engaging and they turn a completely ordinary death (not that any death is ordinary although they would see it that way) into an allegory of beauty. Aristotle said in his Poetics that  “objects such as corpses, painful to view in themselves can become delightful to contemplate in a work of art”. Not beautiful but delightful.

    I wonder whether the Anglo Saxon tradition of say, 1200 years ago, had a puritan streak? No, it wouldn’t have. Is there an Anglican cadence in the writing of our present, literary ‘tradition’, or more correct, trend?  I think so.  Even Hilary Mantel would acknowledge this as would Brookner in own precise and delicate novels. I think our current language is…not hollow..but it is the language of pumpkin beer, wands, evening callers and dedicated bird watchers. Australia is no different.

    @soundworld  I am glad you liked it and am with you on the negativity. But there are more people than a year ago…

    @thekrynoidman you’re quite right. My apologies for the incorrect word but not the substance!  (waves the pointy teacher finger!)

    @arbutus yes…eer my last post (tryin’ to bring it all together…yee-hah. eer) was fuelled by red wine. So, how Missy can induce Clara to be the saviour of dead people (I love how you wrote that) is..well…that’s a problem…! I agree with the door scene-actually ALL of it. He’s bloomin brilliant.

    Scuttles off to (avoid being hit and) read German books and Beowulf again: do I have to (she whines)?

    “Anything by a German dude in the library, anything from, 1200 years ago in translation, dear? No, not Games of Throne. That’s wrong anyway: in both ways. It’s mainly some movie with blood”. Does that work? At all? Nope. Scuttles still…looking for some fire….

    Loved it, puro.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    where Danny radiated goodness and wisdom.

    Well, apart from the bits where he treated Clara like a private in his squad. A private, incidentally, who he doesn’t want to get promoted.

    He did it every time. Every time she started acting like an ‘officer’, doing strategic thinking, trying to work out the situation – he cut her down, tried to drag her back to the very small ‘detail’ task of getting the kids back to Coal Hill School. He treated her like a bloody private.

    He made a great speech about loving the small stuff, and I can understand entirely that he might be quite genuinely someone who’s seen a bit too much and wants to concentrate on the ‘little stuff’ of teaching and bringing up kids. But that doesn’t make it right for Clara. Last week we saw her effectively defeat an alien invasion by herself; this week he wants her to take six kids across London and leave the alien invasion to someone else.

    And not backing her up when they got an offer to take the kids to see the solar flare was inexcusable. Chance to see a bit of the universe, kiddies? Nope, let’s take you home to Mum – far more important.

    Rory felt domestic without being small. Danny feels like he’s an embodiment of the miniaturisation theme. Or the thing last week where all the ‘murals’ had their backs turned. He’s small, and he’s deliberately ignoring stuff. And he wants to stop Clara flying.


    Spider @spider

    Having watched the episode again tonight I’ve completely changed my mind about it. On first watch I thought it was a bit ‘meh’ in general and pretty weak. But watching again (admittedly when its not so late and I’ve had less to drink ;)) there are so many lovely moments. Seeing the Doctor react with kids, Danny/Clara dynamic. Clara having to cope with her two worlds colliding (and doing it far less well than Danny or the Doctor cope with each other i think). It is actually a lovely story and a good breather before the season finale.

    Personally, I loved the ‘listen’ to people, not give them medication/drugs kind of message. Yes I can see why it’s a bit concerning of a message but it’s actually very important, and for me it struck a huge chord. A few years ago I was going through a not great time in my head , there were some family issues with depression going on  (not me, a relative) and it was a difficult time and i wasn’t coping very well (although i didn’t realise then, only after) .

    I ended up going and chatting to a counselor for a few weeks, because once i realised my head was in such a wrong place that’s what i felt i should do and what i needed,  to talk to someone, have them listen to me, and not in any way take any drugs, i didn’t want to go the drugs route. I had seen what it had done to other people. I didn’t want to have to be on medication. And in the end it was fine, i had a bit of a wobble, but i managed to sort myself out, and family member slowly got so much better and is now so different it’s like having them back after them being so very far away.

    But at one point when all this was bad I remember somebody (not GP I think it was occupational health at my work) saying after we had had a chat about how i was doing, the response was “Are you still resisting the drugs” and my heart completely sank. Because the first course of action  should not be drugs, it should be ‘listen’. It should be ‘listen’ what the person is trying to tell you. And maybe that needs to lead to medication. But at first what we need to do is just ..listen. And that, fundamentally it the biggest thing i personally took from this episode.

    Apologies if this is a bit to ‘heavy’ stuff to bring to the discussion about an episode about a TV show, but i just needed to say 🙂


    Anonymous @

    @arbutus yes you’re right: less timey whimey. The thing with any author voice is that it often can’t be avoided. A Mantel will always be a Mantel and never a Brookner just as Byatt could never be Atwood. All are outstanding. Here, though, it’s super clever that Moffat and his writers aren’t chucking in the phrase: “timey whimey”. Instead, this doctor’s personality is very precise and relentless (the classical mind; not digressive like the Romans and indeed Tolkein, in my opinion) so that we hear: “I’ll use pi which isn’t round like pie but actually it is round so..” (paraphrasing again!). As you say the stories don’t use the continual jumping back and forth -almost imitating 11s way of speaking and being. The Doctor is the Doctor on this plane and in his consciousness and method of expression.

    We also tend to mimic that which we see as a trend…sorry, this is getting back to that marvellous discussion about language again. Mudlark:  14. Puro: 2. Ah well! Leave that be for now although I have a lot to learn and that is wonderful. I love books themselves (two foot tall 1800 editions with gold leaf and that fragrance of pages; both old and new) and reading and discussion just as I love the drama in Who.

    Maybe I always liked the drama and wasn’t interested in the Monsters of Who that often. It explains why, when I saw the 4th episode in the re-boot, I was in a snit because the Monsters were so perfectly put together: no more alfoil. The drama engaged me at 5 years of age. It engages me still. And in this decade, the drama has escalated and moved to centre stage; it’s considered important by producers and writers that drama lead the show. As it should, imho.

    Kindest, puro (still on the top stair in the library at home: flipping thru some editions of The Poetics and The Agamemnon: tearing out hair)

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave


    Oh, dear, I can see we have very different ideas about relationships.

    From where I stand Danny stands for responsibility. He stood for responsibility in this episode, just as he stood for responsibilty in “The Caretaker”, when his first response was to want to evacuate the school. Clara, on the other hand, has been lying to him in a very irresponsible way. But she ultimately recognises the wisdom of what he says to her in this episode. And the children know what they want–to be with their mum. To have taken them on a joy ride into space in the face of that really would have been inexcusable. Does he want to stop her flying? I think not.

    No, on every single level, Danny radiated goodness and wisdom.

    On this one, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree.

    But I would be interested to know what others think.

    lisa @lisa

    Could Missy be choosing Clara as a ‘reboot Miss Hartigan”  ?? [cybermen plus another “miss’  etc. ]

    The Doctors sweater had sparkly bits on it like the Sparkly bits that Maebe saw which means —–> no idea

    I liked the “earth/trees saving the planet concept

    Maybe Missy’s surprise was that she expected to collect a lot of earth beings from when the sun burnt it up and she didn’t have that opportunity?

    I still think Clara might be  1 of the claricles – ‘time can be re-written’ which is what the claricles do









    midnyt @midnyt

    I agree that Danny was simply being responsible. Yes, Clara can save the world, but can she keep an eye on a group of kids in her care?

    I also felt the medication thing was a message to take our time and listen first, rather than just throw meds at it, which we do much to often in this day and age.

    I really enjoyed this ep, and i really enjoyed everyone in it. No, its not going to end up one of the standout eps, but i think it might be one of my favorites this series.



    Well, apart from the bits where he treated Clara like a private in his squad. A private, incidentally, who he doesn’t want to get promoted.

    I think that only happened in your imagination.

    he cut her down, tried to drag her back to the very small ‘detail’ task of getting the kids back to Coal Hill School

    No, he was treating her like someone who had forgotten what her job is.

    And not backing her up when they got an offer to take the kids to see the solar flare was inexcusable

    No – he was paying attention to the kids – who wanted to go home to their mums. Clara was being the Pied Piper.

    Anonymous @

    @blenkinsopthebrave I’m interested in this discussion also. I think that @bluesqueakpip has referred to the jarring attitude  Danny demonstrated and yet, as a teacher and mum of a 12 year old, I kind of feel that Danny did the right thing. He was in loco parentis and his only concern was keeping the children safe. This should be Clara’s concern too. For instance, she didn’t call the school and then lied about it to Danny. Not good; both the lying and the absent-minded behaviour.

    I guess in calling the Doctor she was hoping he’d ‘save’ the situation but was more excited than nervous and indeed, annoyed, that she couldn’t ‘show’ him her big discovery. She then turned her own absent minded behaviour back onto Danny . Clara was almost grateful and relieved that there was something or someone he’d ‘forgotten’ – Maebe. She was more concerned about exercise books and their dates (meaning “Danny will find out I’ve been lying for months!”)  than the problem of the forest and the impending hideous defoliation.

    On the other hand, he did order her around. He feels he’s the natural leader and has no problem ‘hating on the doctor’ for either following Maebe or taking a group of children around the forest without Clara as chaperone to the Doctor, as if, without her, the children won’t be safe. On the other hand… (how many can I use?) Danny is still the teacher, the legal minder of those children and the Doctor is not.

    Yes, I too loved his speech about the wonders right in front of your eyes but he really could have convinced the children to take a look at space. I said earlier that I’d want my mum too, but if two teachers responsibly agreed that a trip like this wouldn’t make you late and would be utterly life changing, I’d dry my tears and say ‘let’s go’.

    @spider thank you for sharing your story and being brave in trying another option. I think others would agree? @soundworld what is your opinion about the Doctor’s reference to not using medication as the first resort or option? I certainly went though something like that five years ago and attempted to avoid the Doctor’s opinion about heavy medicating. After some research I decided to throw away the prescription and I’m glad I did.

    However, we’re talking about children here and it’s difficult, sometimes, to really listen to them. We want to, but, let’s face it, they get tangled up with their words and explanations and it’s hard to stay objective when he/she is your own. We want what’s best and if a Doctor with authority and experience assures us that ‘this is the best option’ then maybe we’re inclined to take it.

    @melloyello I too wonder along with @arbutus why you think we’ve had to ‘endure’ so much this season? As I said earlier, this is turning into the best season of Who I’ve seen. Again, just my opinion, but it stretches to cover all the episodes, the drama, the connections between the people and the relationships between the children at Coal Hill School.

    @thekrynoidman and @ixion I think the children’s scenes and ‘banteresque’ interactions were the best thing about the episode. Having three 12 year olds over last night, they all agree that the ep was fab because they could totally relate to ALL the things that were being said and done.

    Not only were the child actors terrific but it was so proximal to our current trend – medication of children, so-called ‘dark phobic’ (being scared of the dark, one child quipped) -in other words, labelling everything three different ways from Sunday – selfies, the picture in Trafalgar square but not a picture of the Tardis (understandable as it’s a police box to them, too), calling kids (who maybe aren’t that bright) ‘Gifted and Talented’ (because we label them) so they ‘feel better about themselves’; saying to them “you don’t have any imagination”; children asking to be ‘navigator’ and then whispering ‘what’s a navigator?’…I could go on….. The fact is ALL three kids at my house said “yeah, that’s right, Adam does that all the time & so does Eve, they all ask to do stuff and then don’t know what it is they’re doing!!!”

    The comment “ask Miss Oswald, she says I don’t have any imagination Mr Pink” was the line that caused all three kids to roll around laughing.

    So, @ixion taking the kids out of the ep would have meant….no episode, no fun. No drama between the children and their spot- on interactions with each other,  social media and teachers: “People in love fight all the time. Don’t you know ANYTHING?” Great line from the child who also said “x is at the top, Mr Pink; look: it hasn’t gone anywhere, it’s not lost“.

    Boy can kids and teachers relate to this -even the 22 year old students I work with speak like that!! “Look Dr___ there’s a note on this page, I can see it. It’s there, so why can’t I conduct it?” Me: “yes, you can and in fact by moving your right hand, you are!” Her: “but why can’t I use my left hand?” Me: “You are, it’s down by your side. Just call on it!”


    TheDoctorsOtter @thedoctorsotter

    I just now got the episode watched over here in the US. I don’t have BBC TV channel so I have to wait a day for the episode to be added to iTunes which is not to fun.

    Anyways though, I thought the episode was fairly good. It wasn’t nothing to crazy but still enjoyable. It isn’t probably one that months from now I will come back and rewatch but it was still good. To me it had a Narnia feel to it, but that might have just been the lion statue, the forest and the little girl.

    I got more respect for Danny this episode who I already really liked, especially from the Caretaker episode. I just really really hope he doesn’t turn out to be a bad guy or anything.

    I do think the missing girl coming back at the end was a bit oddly done but I think it was more meant for the kid viewers(and the episode in general) anyway so it was fine.

    Can’t wait for next week!

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @pedant and @blenkinsopthebrave

    It’ll be interesting to see who’s bonkers theory is the correct one. From what the kids were saying in the background, the decision to take them across a couple of miles of instant forest was Danny’s. They say ‘where is he taking us?’

    That’s not very responsible.

    I realise this is Doctor Who, but the normal procedure would be for Danny to stay with the other kids in the museum. That’s his job; to keep the kids in a safe place. Clara, as the second teacher, would retrieve Maebh.

    It’s a bit like the telling no one he’s called Rupert (and the CRB got name checked this week). It’s odd. He says the kids are the priority; he doesn’t act like it. He gets another chance to keep them safe later; but he takes them all out of the TARDIS to meet a tiger. Armed with a torch. Okay, he didn’t expect the tiger, but he did know Nelson’s column had just fallen down.

    It would’ve been extremely easy to develop a script reason for the museum to seem unsafe. Falling tree? But instead they chose to have the kids taken out of safety, into relative danger. And the lines imply that it was Danny’s decision. Twice.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    No, he doesn’t ‘feel’ like a monster-by-choice, does he? I’m thinking the Teller from Time Heist. Something he wants more than anything in the world…

    I would genuinely like Samuel Anderson to go into a second series.

    Ixion @ixion


    I can understand the appeal to children, but it just didn’t appeal to me. If you thought the children made the episode, that’s great! I’m glad you got to see an episode that brought you joy. Personally, though, I felt it was a little too cutesy-wootsey for my taste. I also don’t agree that no children = no episode. I would have been perfectly happy to watch an episode about the mysterious little girl who came knocking on the Doctor’s door one day (perhaps we would have learned a bit more about the situation concerning her sister). But, like I said, it’s all a matter of opinion. It just wasn’t my cup of tea. 🙂

    DrBen @drben

    I loved it.  I don’t care how bad the science is (or isn’t), or whether there’s no real monster, or whatever the complaints are.  I love the whole idea of the trees watching out for and saving humanity over the centuries.  I thought the character development was wonderful, the interactions with the kids was great, the fairytale feel was well done.

    Can’t say much now, but just wanted to say that.  Also, I haven’t read all the posts, but who else thinks that Missy sent Maebh to the Doctor?  The first time, she says something about Miss Oswald, but when the conversation comes up again, she says that the thought came from “Miss”.  Uh huh.

    Anonymous @

    @DoctorBen I think others mentioned that Clara’s a telepath or a bit of an empath so that the thoughts which came to Maebh could be from Clara. Also young Maebh is always surrounded by ‘thoughts’. Her frequency is different says the Doctor so that tuning in to Clara would be normal for her. Perhaps…but Missy yes..after all…something from that encounter with the forest surprised Missy.

    @ixion no problem, I understand. I get all ‘mumsy’ about these things! Now, are you new to this Forum? If so, welcome and hope you have a tremendous time. Everyone (generally: oops) is friendly and the debates about everything are interesting and respectful. I hope you’ll find this to be so. It’s a home away from home, IMHO.

    @bluesqueakpip are you saying that Danny is a pawn (not a monster by choice person) who doesn’t know he’s being used to collect Clara or the Doctor? He doesn’t know that later he eventually travels through time (or that he’s related to the person who does -Orson).  Could that be why he’s not comfortable with the TARDIS? He doesn’t like the travels Clara undertakes and the TARDIS herself doesn’t like Clara all that much

    Kindest, puro.

    janetteB @janetteb

    A few quick thoughts before wading through, (actually I really enjoy it,) all the posts. I didn’t have high expectations of this episode despite an appealing trailer. I have seen several things recently scripted by Cottrell Boyce and they were very good but they were not Dr Who/like. There are so many fantastic genre writers out there. Why get a guest writer who doesn’t do Sci fi? I liked the concept but the execution let the story down. As Dan Martin said over on the Guardian there was no tension. The Doctor’s sudden realisation that “I was wrong. IT’s all going to be ok” was simply a let down and the child sending out the message was a feeble denoument. I don’t think one child’s voice no matter how “sweet” would have changed anything. The magical disappearance of the trees at the end was also a disappointment.  Would have been nice to have at least seen scenes of people cleaning up the mess and repairing Nelson’s column which  I assume just magically righted itself.

    The microscopic, (miniatures again) light things could well be what moved the chalk in the Tardis and inhabited the emptiness at the end of time in Listen but I have a feeling there is no intentional narrative link between the two episodes.

    The Missy scene felt rather shoehorned in just to keep us “on the hook” as it were. I don’t think it contributed much other than to reinforce the idea that she is corporeal and has access to modern tech. It somewhat de mystified the character for me.

    Two references to the Doctor beign the last of his kind which I thought was a theme that was done and dusted. I was rather surprised when it was revived in this story and wondered if that was for a reason, (and not simply because C-B hasn’t been following recent developments in the story), that the Doctor is about to encounter another of “his kind”, most likely Missy or maybe ….

    New bonkers theory, devised when half asleep, (which justifies the madness of it) not sure if this has already been suggested so thought I’d throw it in, Danny in the Doctor’s great grandson sent back in time which would explain the lack of family and why his twin brother, Orson, is still running about in the future.

    And finally, my big gripe for the week. Another episode featuring Coal Hill and still no Ian Chesterton. I am going off to paint up a placard. “WE WANT IAN”




    Arbutus @arbutus

    @purofilion     I have a mental image of you, like the little boy from A.A. Milne: Halfway down the stairs is a stair where i sit. there isn’t any other stair quite like it. i’m not at the bottom, i’m not at the top; so this is the stair where I always stop. And, like Reb Tevye, you are crying out in despair, “No, no! There is no other hand!”

    @blenkinsopthebrave, I think that if it were my child off on a field trip, I would expect above all that the teachers’ first priority would be to get him home safely (NOT into space!). I quite liked Danny in this episode (although he was perhaps a bit bossy at the end, telling Clara essentially to go home and do her chores before they could talk!). But overall I found him very sympathetic.

    I also agree with Puro that I found the children to be very believable. I have met kids that talk like this! They can be hilarious (at least, I find them hilarious). And yes, the math class scene: my son loves to read those lists of goofy answers to math and science questions, and still tells the story of a 12-year old classmate who, upon being asked to read aloud the word “doorknob”, hesitated for a moment and then said, “Dork-nob?” We still call people that regularly.   🙂

    Juniperfish @juniperfish

    @purofilion Thanks for the perspectives of the twelve year olds in your house – it is interesting to hear how younger viewers perceive Who. And a notable sign of changing times that, whilst Who was a programme aimed at kids from the beginning, the Doctor rarely interacted with children in Old Who.

    What has happened to Linda Lee’s reviews? I haven’t been keeping up with them this season. Has anyone else?

    @spider and @purofilion Thanks for sharing your stories of trying to avoid medication. I agree that medication isn’t always the answer and listening may be. That was clearly the point of the Doctor’s comment re Maebh.

    Interesting discussion re Danny and Clara @blenkinsopthebrave and @bluesqueakpip . I had every sympathy with Clara who wanted to see the solar flare from space at the end. I think the script left us to decide which of Danny’s “get the kids home” or Clara’s “show them wonders” perspectives we preferred. Clara is torn between two lives, rather in the way that Amy was torn. But whilst Rory went along with Amy’s choice to travel in the TARDIS for a long time, Danny prefers to have his feet firmly planted on the earth, so Clara has to juggle more of a double life.


    Cath Annabel @cathannabel

    Fascinating discussions here, as always, and as always I feel I have very little to add!  However, for what it’s worth…

    Re Danny, I am uneasy.   I can see both perspectives (@blenkinsopthebrave and @bluesqueakpip). Clara’s incessant, compulsive lying makes Danny seem more responsible – but whose fault was it that they lost a child?  How long was Maebe missing – and how did neither Danny nor Clara (nor any of the other children) notice?  And this is a child who is known to be extremely vulnerable, on medication, etc etc.   And twice (as noted by others) he leads the children out of a place of safety into the unknown, into the forest which represents unknown hazards, and the strong possibility of getting lost (all of them, or some of them).  Clara’s lying bothers me a lot.  I find myself willing her not to do it, and then frustrated, and baffled when she inevitably does, to both the Doctor and Danny.

    I don’t have a problem per se with the threat that turns out to be benign – but the denouement was just too easy.  Everything is back to rights, and humanity will, apparently, forget it all happened.  How does that work? (Though we have another to add to our list of superpowers – we learned in Listen that fear is one, now we are told that forgetting is a superpower too…).   And the reappearance of the missing sister – unless that turns out to be part of the overall narrative arc, which probably means it’s a lot darker than it appeared – was again just too easy, she’s been gone a year, and with hugs and smiles all is now fine.  I am notoriously weepy, and Doctor Who often gets me going, but whilst I was touched by the portrayal of Maebe overall , that ending left me dry-eyed.

    It does feel as if we are just holding our breath now, for the finale and whatever explanations/resolutions it brings…

    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @blenkinsopthebrave and @Bluesqueakpip- it does feel as though we are supposed to be focusing on Danny and Clara with this episode, I’m tempted to think much of the weaknesses of it are caused by this focus.

    The set up for his episode is amazing, it must have looked fantastic on the page. And, quite a few times, on the screen it did. But surely it was supposed to be night time? It felt a little as though they came up with this amazing setting, then mostly used it as a backdrop to conversations between Clara and the Doctor, and Clara and Danny. And I would have liked a little more between The Doctor and Danny. They’re both soldiers who decided to walk away from warfare, Danny more successfully. This could have been really interesting and made more use of the situation than simply as a reason to examine the issues between Clara and her two men.

    The problem I found with Clara and Danny was that they seemed to be going round in circles. He’s bothered when she calls the Doctor rather than the children’s parents. He’s bothered when they get to the Tardis and she says ‘he’s going to sort it.’ (I actually don’t like it when the scripts have the companion saying things like this, like Amy with her ‘he’s never let me down’ when actually he rather had. A lot of the tension in Doctor Who comes from the fact he’s capable of making mistakes, and may not be able to save anyone.) He’s bothered when Clara snaps straight into companion mode and clearly hasn’t been away from the Doctor for any period of time. He’s bothered when he see’s evidence of Clara’s presence o the Tardis. I got to the point where I would have liked more of a conversation between them about it. But that never really takes off. I suppose the way it makes sense is that this is so much further into the relationship than the time when he gave her an ultimatum (be honest, and tell me when he pushes you too far) that they’ve gone past the point of negotiation and into the stage of ‘for better or worse’.

    I personally don’t see Danny as controlling. A friend of mine, who’s only seen up to ‘the Caretaker’ does. Someone on the Guardian site suggested the ‘Skyler effect’ in Breaking Bad. Basically, the protagonist is a meth dealer. That is the plot and the excitement of the show, so anyone who tries to put the breaks on this is a bad person from the point of the view of the audience. Here, we’re watching Doctor Who, it’ about people traveling in space and time, its exciting because there is danger. But he’s a maths teacher with a girlfriend, very different priorities. But a lot of people see him as creepy, while I keep thinking there is something seriously off about Clara (from a teacher point of view). With Moffet there is always the question: a misstep in the script, red herring or important plot point?

    janetteB @janetteb

    I feel a little guilty for not liking this episode more after reading all the wonderful comments. I loved the premise and the children but even the drama between Clara and Danny felt underplayed to me. He took the revelation that she had been lying rather too well. I will be disappointed if that is the end of that and by next week is is all tidied away and forgotten.

    As usual lots of posts to respond to, Firstly just because it was so well said I will quote @blenkinsopthebrave

    Maybe, but I think the episode can be appreciated by accepting it at face value (ie, without reference to hidden meanings or as part of an arc). This was an episode where love triumphed, where families were re-united, where Danny radiated goodness and wisdom. Have we become so cynical that we can’t accept that?

    I also applauded your remark re’ fantasy, Game of Thrones and the overuse of the terms Edgy and (forgotten the other. Damm not enough notes.)

    @mudlark. Excellent comment re’ the forest and interesting discussion about Scandanavian lit’. I would love to see a Dr Who episode set in Early Medieval Sweden playing on the Scandanavian myths, utilising the forests, lakes, carved stones, the sublime light and the sense of the past lurking under the thin veneer of the modern age. I imagine Iceland would also provide a remarkable setting for some Valhalla inspired action. (Iceland is high on my list of places to go before I die. I love Sweden having lived there briefly.)

    @phileasf. 8/10 for a very interesting theory.

    @juniperfish. I liked your explanation for the sister’s return, that she was brought back to life by the magical beings. It works well.

    @spider. I can relate to your story. I have a story to add on the topic. A few years ago our mechanic’s 10-11 year old daughter began to have trouble sleeping because she was hearing noises in her head. They took her to specialists to no avail. I don’t know if drugs were prescribed but I have not doubt they were discussed. This went on for over a year and, understandably was the cause for great anxiety. Then they discovered that white ants had eaten out the frame work of their house. The nest was in the wall behind their daughter’s pillow. White ants make quiet a lot of noise. The noises she was hearing were real.

    In the end Danny reminded me a little of Ricky when first invited onto the Tardis. While I was disappointed that Danny turned down the offer to witness something remarkable I understood his reasons. Danny is war-weary. He has tired of danger. I really can’t see Clara settling down to everyday life, working and going home whether alone or with Danny. She wants too impossible things which invariably leads to tragedy.



    janetteB @janetteb

    Excellent points @cathannabel and @miapatrick. While I was bumbled around with my inept post you both posted comments that adeptly covered what I was trying to say. 🙂



    Anonymous @

    @miapatrick I really like your points and @cathannabel as well. I don’t know what to think: one moment I love this script and the next moment I’m not so sure. One moment I love Danny and then I’m suspicious of him. I love Clara and then think, like you, there’s something off about her, too. I did think the episode worked very well despite that. In the end, the lack of discussion between Dan and Clara reminded me of normal life actually. It’s a pretty together couple which can talk to each other (when the world is growing) asking a variety of questions to elicit a trusting attitude and thus improve their relationship. I think that considering the situation, they’re doing quite well! G’night all. Puro.

    Anonymous @

    Ok, that was pretty dumb:  Clara does lie and that’s bad. Really bad. I’m equally frustrated when she seems to lie -almost without reason. I think Dan is aware of it – and he’s annoyed and angry. That’s fair.

    Anonymous @

    I share @cathannabel ‘s concerns about Danny’s sense of responsibility. He certainly comes across as the ‘responsible adult’ in this episode, something Clara confesses she finds attractive.

    But all the whooping and hollering after seeing off the tiger, with the children right behind him, no attempt made to make them keep back a safe distance. Not to mention later leading them through the wood making rather a lot of attention attracting noise. It jarred with me.

    The question that has niggled me most though, is how and when did Maebh leave the museum? Rather a lot was made of the curator unlocking the door with a code and even then it was stuck and Danny and his’team’ (loved their resistance to being called that) had to heave at it. So did someone let her out earlier? Or had she been missing since the previous day? Surely not. The first rule of school trips – keep counting. But even if Danny failed to head count, one of the other kids would have brought it up. Ruby would have kept him on his toes.

    Ah well, its probably just a a loose plot end which will never get tied up. I still have my suspicions about Danny though and am  inclined to think, at the moment, that he is an agent. Posters have suggested above (sorry, can’t make my @names go live) Missy, UNIT, from the future (Orson’s twin) which are all good theories.

    Whoever is behind it Danny’s job seems to be to keep an eye on Clara and intervene if she is in real danger either with a torch or the most remarkable (and yet curiously unremarked in-story) display of gymnastics seen since ‘The Doctor’s Daughter’ . Perhaps that’s why Clara has had to lie to him – it would have ruined all the plots if Danny had been there saving her all the time!

    Also, is it just me or does the doctor seem to be displaying a real dad vibe this series (with Clara I mean.) I dismissed this idea at first because of Clara’s self confessed fancying of Matt Smith’s doctor. But perhaps that mirrors a real father daughter relationship. Little girls want to marry their fathers and then as they grow up and get real boyfriends their fathers move into protective mode, vetting boyfriends, parking their Tardis in the bedroom on the daughter’s first date and so on.

    And although the doctor may have seemed callous about Clara’s safety on occasion did you see how quickly he was galvanized into action when she rang him to tell him she was trapped in MotOE?

    If he is her dad though I do hope Missy is not her mum. She is a bit too weird.

    I’m not too worried though as my theories are always wrong. I haven’t had a right theory yet.

    PhileasF @phileasf

    @blenkinsopthebrave – I had mixed feelings about Danny in this episode.

    I like Danny, so I was looking forward to an episode in which he’d play a bigger part, after being on the sidelines for the past few weeks. I was a bit disappointed. Although he was on-screen a lot more this week, I didn’t feel we saw any deeper into him than we’ve seen before.

    Maybe the most interesting ‘new’ thing in Danny is that he effectively has the ‘officer’ role that he has previously disdained. He is the commander of his team/troop of ‘gifted and talented’ kids, and Clara also seems to be under his command. He seems to be good at taking charge, and his first concern is always the well-being of those under his command.

    My feelings about his relationship with Clara wavered. At times he seemed awfully officious with her; but on reflection it would seem that, as in The Caretaker, he was just being sensible and professional.

    When he realises Clara is lying to him, and says he doesn’t care what the truth is, he just wants her to tell him the truth, he seems to be the perfect Sensitive New Age Guy (SNAG), as we called them when I was a youth.

    But there is something unsavoury in the next moment, where Clara is about to tell him the truth, and he stops her, and says she needs to go home, do her marking, and then tell him. The unsavouriness lies in the fact he tells her to do her marking. He’s being her boss there, telling her to do the job she’s being paid for, when he’s not actually her boss.

    I think a subtle ambiguity is being carefully maintained in Danny’s character. Sometimes he seems a bit ‘off’, a bit wrong, a bit controlling, like an officer perhaps. And sometimes he seems very understanding and accepting of Clara’s uniquely weird eccentricities. Given Danny’s well-established communication issues (as seen in Listen) I’m perfectly willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and accept that he’s really a good guy who isn’t always good at expressing himself.

    I would go so far as to say that what is interesting about Danny is that he’s basically a good guy who isn’t good at expressing himself. Most sympathetic male characters are either:

    a) idealised versions of the male author who are, unlike the author, capable of expressing themselves as really great guys; or

    b) idealised male sex-partners imagined by female authors.

    A good guy who’s not very good at expressing what’s inside himself is, I think, rare in fiction and common in real life.

    I think the key to Danny’s character is in his first appearance, in Into the Dalek. A kid asks if he’s ever killed anyone who wasn’t a soldier, and he sheds a tear. No-one who can cry because he killed someone can be a bad person. It is a narratological fact. I have met people who have similar histories to Danny, and they were very very severely f****d up. That Danny has his apparent history as a soldier, and is as sensible and together as he is, makes him a hero, however imperfect he may seem in any given line of dialogue.

    @spider and others. I was a little insensitive when I dissed the episode for being anti-medication. Clearly, this is a matter that can only be judged on a case-by-case basis, and a lot of psychiatric professionals lazily make the wrong call.

    But even if many psychiatric professionals carelessly prescribe medication where it isn’t appropriate, I still think it’s weird and wrong for Doctor Who to say that people who ‘hear voices’ should stop taking their medication and listen to the voices. Some people who hear voices really should keep taking their medication.

    DrBen @drben

    @purofilion @Margaret-Blaine and others – There’s clearly something mysterious and (as yet) unexplained about Maebh’s disappearance from the museum and how she knew to get the Doctor.  If the idea came from Clara, who may or may not be a telepath, than Maebh’s abilities must include clairvoyance, because she knew to find the TARDIS and the Doctor before Clara ever saw the forest.  That is, if Maebh got a mental message from Clara to find the Doctor, it must have been a future message, because Clara did not yet know anything was wrong.

    The counter-argument may be that of course Maebh is clairvoyant because she knew about the solar flares and drew them in her school books.  But it’s only the trees (I think) who knew about the solar flares ahead of time, and they told Maebh.  [Although, why did Maebh think that making the trees grow was her idea?]

    I think Missy is involved because of the way Maebh said “Miss” the second time rather than “Miss Oswald” – as far as I can tell, no one else called Clara just “Miss” during the episode.  It would be another “Women In The Shop” move, helping characters find the Doctor when they most need to.  I also think that there will be more for us to learn about the mysterious disappearance and reappearance of Annabel.  Weird.

    zeitgeis @zeitgeis

    @purofilion says

    “Ok, that was pretty dumb:  Clara does lie and that’s bad. Really bad. I’m equally frustrated when she seems to lie -almost without reason. I think Dan is aware of it – and he’s annoyed and angry. That’s fair.”

    I seem to recall Danny remarking in this episode that she had said for some 4 or 5 months that she had not be been in the Tardis.  I believe he has been putting pressure on her to stay out of the Tardis so as to stay out of danger.  So she is forced to lie.  He has forced her to hide the most exciting part of her life. Obviously, her values are more like the Doctor’s than Danny’s.




    My creepy theory is not that some magical hydrangeas sequestered her @pedant but that she was dead in the woods and the magical tree

    There was not a thing in the ep which suggested powers of resurrection. The Little Sparkly Things of Treeness protected.

    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @janetteB- agree to disagree, I think you put your thoughts down very  well.

    What surprises me is that I like this episode less than I’ve liked any episode this series, and yet it raises for me more topics for discussion than most of the rest. I’ve said that I think the focus on Danny and Clara might have detracted from it, but it does interest me.

    @zeitgeis: to be fair to Danny. she went to him after Mummy on the orient express and told him she was done with the doctor. If he’s put any pressure on her to leave, it’s been off camera. That isn’t to say that she hasn’t been made to feel like she needs to keep it from him, but it leaves it open as to whether this is something coming from her head or from him.

    @purofilion- it wasn’t dumb, really, that’s what’s so odd about the situation so far. They seem to be doing pretty well, clicking well, but she’s pretty much creating situations where she’s lying to him. Why would she rather tell him she’d stopped traveling with the doctor and do it anyway rather than say she’d changed her mind?

    commishkc @commishkc

    This is my first time on here posting anything.  I had to finally say something.  I have been a fan of Dr. Who since Tom Baker.  Grew up watching him.  Have watched every episode since the restart.  I have to honestly say that so far this is the worst season of Dr. Who ever.  And it breaks my heart to say it, but the scripts for this season have been horrendous.


    I am tired of Clara.  Jenna-Louise Coleman is a great actress, but the character Clara has grown tiresome.  I think she should have left the show when we got the new doctor.  This back and forth lying to everyone, love story etc is pathetic.

    When did the Doctor let anyone and everyone into the Tardis without so much as a say so?

    And what is with all of the kids in all of these episodes?  Please stop having so many children in the show.  They are all so cliche it makes me want to puke.

    Stop with all of the social media comments as well.  Hearing Peter talk about texting, facebook, twitter and everything else is not needed.

    This show needs to get back to basics with a grumpy doctor that I was hoping Peter would be.  There have been flashes of this, but this last episode did it for me.

    I have re-watched every season of since the restart, but I will not be re-watching this season.  Which is sad since it is the longest one yet.


    Again, those are just my own opinion, but the writing and episodes are not thrilling, entertaining or even watchable.  I used to sit on the edge of my seat watching, but now I only have pay attention and just try to get through the episode before I delete it.


    Cath Annabel @cathannabel

    @ – well, lots of people really, but inc. @miapatrick, @purofilion, @zeitgeis…  Clara’s lying seems to me to be a compulsion rather than forced on her by the situation with either the Doctor or Danny.  In every situation with either of them where she has the chance to tell the truth, she opts for a lie instead.  Why? I don’t honestly think it’s down to Danny forcing things (even if I do have my doubts about him).  It’s so pervasive, so consistent, that there must be some deeper reason for it I think.  Though I am obviously prepared to eat those words should the finale tell us otherwise.



    . Why would she rather tell him she’d stopped traveling with the doctor and do it anyway rather than say she’d changed her mind?

    Why would she say she’d stopped [insert addictive behaviour] and do it anyway…

    Because she is a junkie and she is afraid Danny will take her junk away.

    Anonymous @

    It’s worth remembering, perhaps, that Clara has been involved in lying before Danny ever showed up. At Christmas she introduced the doctor to her family as her boyfriend, adding ‘He’s Swedish’ to cover the fact that he was naked. Plus she was kind of lying about having cooked the turkey. Minor porkies perhaps but ‘great oaks from little acorns etc’.

    Also, in The Snowmen she was leading a double life, which must involve a whole lot of lies.

    I’m going to have to go away now and see if  there have been any more examples.

    DrBen @drben

    @cathannabel — Oooh interesting.  Maybe someone is controlling her?  Making her lie at important moments?

    @Margaret-Blaine – Good call.  And in Asylum of the Daleks she was lying to herself…

    Brewski @brewski

    Did the Doctor specifically mention 2016? Are we two years in the future?

    This would be in keeping with the several comments about incidents which occured “ages ago”.

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