[JimmyP @replies]

You clever buggers! First time I’ve been able to properly log in and read the comments here and you’ve all covered all my thoughts and answered my questions so eloquently and intelligently. This place is genuinely a pleasure compared to the other comment-pits that Who (and other shows/films) tend to create.

In lieu of anything original to say about the episode therefore, can I just say to @puroandson – delighted to have you back after your mini hiatus, and have enjoyed the contributions of ‘andson’ immensely. I don’t have any bambinos as yet, but when I do I hope truly that I’ll have as wonderful a relationship as you 2 do.

You’re a credit to each other and this site.

[JimmyP @replies]

Unbelievable. In the literal sense of the word in this case!

Phenomenal acting chops displayed by all concerned. Coleman and Capaldi couldn’t have done that any better. Also mightily impressed with Maisie Williams (who is only 18!).

Excellent script that felt very ‘tight’ throughout and allowed a good layer of tension.

And then that ending. I understand everyone above who feels that it was almost anti-climactic for Clara’s arc. But I entirely get the points made by others that this is what we’ve been building to; ripples have become waves, Clara has become too much like the Doctor, there are consequences.

Indeed if this really is the end for her (and I honestly can’t decide one way or the other how this will play out) then Moffat was true to his word to “shock, horrify and surprise” us all.

I feel certain meanwhile that it’s the Time Lords who made the deal with Me/Ashildr. But it feels like it’s too easy for it to be Missy. In fact if it’s just been Missy all along then I think I’ll be disappointed; I need the end of this series to go big, or my abiding memory will be Clara leaving us with just the smallest puff of smoke, rather than in the blaze of glory that would seem fitting for the Impossible Girl.

[JimmyP @replies]

@geoffers Your thoughts re. the dust cameras:

maybe it’s how missy managed to monitor the doctor and clara all last season, with impunity (the doctor wondering if he was ever truly alone, in ‘listen,’ and missy watching the events of ‘in the forest of the night’

I love this idea! I’ve wondered before whether we’d ever get an explanation for that, so in lieu of an official one I’m accepting yours!

Here’s an interesting interview with Gatiss about the episode structure, meanings and potential sequel (no spoilers for other future stories or the series arc):

http://www.denofgeek.com/tv/mark-gatiss/37827/doctor-who-sleep-no-more-mark-gatiss-discusses-the-episode

 

[JimmyP @replies]

@geoffers You’re entirely right – it’s stated no helmet cams, CCTV etc. What I meant to type was that the soldiers ‘could have had’ helmet cams (i.e. change the story) and us watch just through their POV (slowly dwindling down to just 1 camera as they get picked off). Gatiss committing to a fully-formed, found-footage concept. So do away with the ‘watching dust’ thing entirely.

I’m a fan of the found-footage trope generally; I love Blair Witch, enjoyed Cloverfield and Chronicle was another very good version, so that change would have improved the episode for me. I know it’s not everyone’s cup of custard though.

 

 

[JimmyP @replies]

@blenkinsopthebrave Absolutely on the BG Who feel to the whole thing – Gatiss’ episodes so clearly mark him out as a real fan of the earlier stuff. And very interesting thoughts on the meta angle to it; I hadn’t thought of it like that and indeed this could survive in isolation as almost a ‘concept’ story, rather than an episode in a series.

@drben @kharis and @others who didn’t enjoy it; I’d highly recommend a second watch. As @purofilion noted, there are complex layers involved here and only second time round did I properly follow the flow of it all.

Interestingly a second viewing also allowed me to understand what I didn’t like about the episode, which was that they didn’t commit fully to the found-footage approach. IMO, having the ‘dust’ POV was a bit of a cheat (found-footage is a difficult film making conceit and nearly everyone resorts to having CCTV or something similar to establish wide angles, give context and scale etc). It also pulled me out of the story a bit because it felt unnecessary. The soldiers all had helmet cams and I think Gatiss should have been brave and just shown us the whole thing through them. As it was the dust-camera shots felt incongruous (although I’m open to the idea that there was a point to that, perhaps to be established in the future, about being watched; there’s been a fair bit of 4th wall breaking in this series).

 

[JimmyP @replies]

Really enjoyed that one, perhaps even more so because I watched it this morning when I got up and I still had sleep in my eyes! Bit too exposition heavy, but that’s to be expected with an episode like this that’s got to at least try and keep everyone in the loop, from restless kids to distracted adults.

Feels instinctively like a stand-alone just before we get into the home stretch, but there were a few threads left dangling:

• The Doctor lost! Comprehensively so too.  He ran away knowing he was missing something, that he’d got it wrong somehow, and so it proved to be as Mr-Collapsing-Face revealed his ultimate plan.
• So the message will still get out there, and humanity is still at risk of all being turned into sand monsters.
• Plus, Clara still has sand in her eye and presumably without treatment will become a sand monster too. I know the Doctor said to her that he’d do ‘something’ to fix her, but he didn’t sound particularly convinced about that.

So is it really a standalone, and any consequences from this episode will just be solved off-screen? Or were they solved in-episode and I missed them? Or have we just seen the Doctor condemn 38th century Earth to it’s doom and (more importantly) the beginning of the end for Clara? Part way through one of the next episodes is Clara’s face going to start collapsing into sand? Surely the Moff isn’t that cruel?

[JimmyP @replies]

Haha @barnable, I too would love the dino to come back! A super-sized T-Rex is pretty cool even when just standing around in the Thames, but it would be even cooler to have it on the rampage and smashing down Cybermen like skittles!

Perhaps there’s still a chance; how about this: people (and dinosaurs) that have appeared to die in this series have actually been miniatuarised (which seems a bit of a ‘thing’). Some fake remains have been deposited to maintain the ruse, but they’re all alive in the Nethersphere (/TL matrix).

All the Doctor and Clara have to do is de-miniaturise them (reverse the polarity??) and they’ll come crashing out that floating orb ready to take revenge on Missy and the Cybermen!

Et voila! Everybody lives, including your favourite dino!

[JimmyP @replies]

And whilst I’m online for a bit, my two-penneth worth on the phone call at the start is that there’s nothing timey-wimey going on. I interpreted the post-it notes as Clara organising her thoughts before speaking to Danny and nothing more.  Three months (as @thebrainofmoffat suggested) would refer to the time she’s been travelling secretly.

Even the slightly unusual phrasing (‘these words are your’s now’) seems just to be her saying that she’ll never love anyone else again.  That’s a pretty big deal to say to someone you’ve been dating for less than 12 months (that’s my guess for the absolute maximum they’ve been together) – I love you and I never want to love anyone else; I want to be with you and only you forever.

I think the whole scene was just meant to emphasise how much Clara was committing to that relationship (stopping lying even!) and to really drive home the utterly tragic timing of what happened next. It also ‘justifies’ the level of grief and desperation we see from her.

The pregnancy thing doesn’t float for me for many of the same reasons as other people (especially that they’ve just done it with the last companion).  Most of all though, she wouldn’t commit suicide if pregnant and throwing that last key away at the volcano was tantamount to killing herself.

 

[JimmyP @replies]

Hi @everyone! Busy week so first time I’ve had chance to properly read through everyone’s thoughts and theories.  Loving it as ever, this series is culminating in some of the most bonkers theorising yet!

I came away from the episode pretty sure that it was explained by Missy to the Doctor that the Nethersphere was nothing of the sort (i.e. not heaven, the afterlife etc) but a technical conceit created and maintained in TL matrix tech (that floating sphere). So people are uploaded to it, encouraged to delete their emotions (by Seb, who I agree has likely not said anything truthful as yet), and then are downloaded into waiting Cybermen. So the ‘don’t cremate me’ bit is a con and a scam, just like the Doctor says it is to Clara and Dr Chang.

So if the Neth isn’t a real place, but a construct for the mind (like being pulled into the wifi) is anyone in there really dead? Surely if their ‘soul’ or consciousness is still alive and kicking, they can be pulled out of there and put into an appropriate receptacle.  I’ve got a feeling that far from going darker, we might be heading for a ‘sometimes everybody lives’ ending.  With the caveat I suppose that if they’ve been in there a while their bodies might not be in the best nick…

[JimmyP @replies]

@ixion – just FYI, some people don’t watch the trailers and count them as spoilers, so if you want to discuss the one at the end of this there’s a blog specifically to do so. Not having a go at all, just wanted to make you aware.

@craig @phaseshift and other lords of the administration, perhaps you could edit the last post for people who don’t want discussion of the trailers in here?

[JimmyP @replies]

@melloyello – what @thommck , @spider and @scaryb say is correct; Clara didn’t recognise War Doc, Tom Baker and indeed Tennant or anyone else because she lost most of the memory of her time in the Doc’s time scar.

This is established in Day of the Doctor (which I re-watched recently) when she meets WarDoc and TennantDoc in the cell.  To paraphrase:

Clara: (to MattDoc) So they’re both you right?

Matt: Yes. You’ve met them before, don’t you remember?

Clara: Sort of…

With regards to the general idea of Clara (Prime) changing too quickly in this series, I do understand where you’re coming from. On watching Day of the Doc (plus a few other eps from the last series) I was reminded of the dynamic between Jenna and Matt Smith, of what great friends they were, of the flirting and finishing each others sentences and hugging and high fives and so on.  Plus, as you say, Clara back then seemed simpler almost, less rough edges.

Perhaps losing ‘her’ Doctor is responsible for some of the change therefore. Or perhaps she’s growing up a bit (we’re meant to assume quite a long time has passed I think). Or perhaps the writers have just fleshed out the character a bit more, away from the ‘impossible girl’ and into a real person.

As I say I get your natural response to her, but personally I just think she’s so much more interesting now.  Plus I love that it’s giving Jenna Coleman chance to show off her acting chops much more!

And if she turns out to be a Missy sleeper-agent I reckon it’ll be another acting masterclass.

P.S. for what it’s worth, I too would prefer if Missy isn’t the Master, and I’ve got a feeling she won’t be (although I’m always bloody wrong about Who!)

[JimmyP @replies]

@jimthefish @kaervekkun  Yes indeed, I’m starting to get back into the idea that Danny might well be the big-bad of the arc.  It’s something I speculated about before the series started, and then again when we met him properly in Into the Dalek (http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/forums/topic/into-the-dalek/page/3/#post-30843)

The Master returning and Missy being a nice piece of ‘miss’-direction would be very Moff in my opinion.

I’m definitely looking forward to seeing Danny’s reaction to the fact that Clara is back telling fibs to the two men in her life again…

[JimmyP @replies]

Hi all, not checked in here as much as usual so just ploughing through all the brilliant ideas and critiques.

I really enjoyed this episode; I love the more character-led stuff and I’m partial to a fun-but-slightly-rubbish McGuffin like the Skovox B.

My initial thoughts (/concerns) mirror @drben ‘s somewhat, in that they seem to be stressing the potential danger Clara is in every week. Is a sticky end just round the corner, and will that lead to a conflict or collaboration between the Doctor and Danny?

One slight swerve did occur to me though, with regards to Courtney. If she travels with the Doctor again (not sure if that’s a given after her first trip!) and something happens to her, what would Danny’s reaction be? And what about Clara? Think of the guilt she’d feel if she failed in the most important care-giving role of all. Could she forgive herself, or the Doctor?

I’m not speculating that Moffat would kill a child of course, but something could leave her hurt or trapped. Maybe in the nethersphere?

As and when Clara leaves the Tardis for the last time it may be of her own volition. And if she left a Doctor as insecure and unsure of himself as 12, what would happen to him then? An even darker Doctor to come perhaps?

[JimmyP @replies]

Hi all, great theorizing already!

Overall I liked-but-didn’t-love this episode. It might improve with a second viewing, but it niggled for a couple of reasons (that have already been mentioned by others).

So I felt the music fit well but was a little OTT, like they were forcing a feeling from you.

And the pacing was off for me, so much that it felt like we were skipping elements and trying to whizz through it. I don’t need the endless exposition you get in a lot of telly these days, but this felt rushed.

I did really like the 2 supporting characters though and would welcome seeing them back. I also enjoyed the Teller; feels like a while since we’ve had a really effective and totally new ‘monster.’

The quality of this series is so high that I think I’ve probably just been spoiled, as this was a very decent standalone. I also think there might be more of the overall arc in here than it seems, Clara’s guilt particularly.

[JimmyP @replies]

Absolutely phenomenal episode, up there with the very best of the new batch in my opinion.

I’ve watched it twice now (and rewound bits too) and I think the overall implication is that Orson is related to Clara.  There’s a red herring or two in there, and we know Moff is tricksy with stuff like this, but I’m leaning towards it.  Here’s why.

So Orson starts by not recognising Clara at all, after he’s collected her from the restaurant.  The Doctor even asks if he has any old family photos of her, and Orson says he doesn’t. We can also assume he doesn’t recognise her name, otherwise he’d be likely to say “I had a great grandma clara” (or something similar).

However very shortly afterwards he appears to have been thinking about it, and isn’t quite so sure.  At 29.43 Orson asks Clara directly if he knows her. She denies it.

Then finally the scene where I think it’s clear that Orson has worked out who Clara is happens when she brings him in to the Tardis, ostensibly to stay the night whilst she and the Doctor wait outside (go to 31 mins in, if you want to skip to it).  It leads to a conversation that goes (paraphrased):

Clara: When you get home, stay away from time travel.

Orson: It runs in the family… just silly stories a great grandparent used to tell

Clara: What is it? Tell me? You asked if you knew me…

(Orson hands her Dan the Soldier Man)

Clara: It’s a family heirloom

Orson: Yeah

The next we see, Clara has the toy soldier in her possession (and gives it to the young Doctor). Orson kept it for luck, and he still wasn’t home safe. It was a family heirloom that clearly meant a lot to him and his relatives (they’d even had a box made for it). Yet he took it out and handed it to someone he met not even an hour previously.

Or rather, he passed it on to another member of the family (maybe to bring her good luck).

I can’t say I’m 100% convinced that Clara’s related to Orson, it could be a massive swerve.  If they’re unrelated that’s against some pretty solid evidence to the contrary in my opinion, and it will need a very strong twist to make it worth the trick played on the audience here.  Of course Moff is exactly the writer to create such a twist, should he so desire.

And I suppose that kind of trick is what we love about it really, isn’t it?

[JimmyP @replies]

Hi all,

I’ve been a long-time lurker here, enjoying the bonkers theorising and the phenomenal ability of people to flag stuff up that I missed on first (second, third etc) viewings.  But this episode actually made me sign up and comment; partly of course because it was brilliant (exceptional writing delivered by, IMO, one of the best directors in the business) but also because for the first time ever I actually predicted what might happen in Doctor Who!

 

At the end of the last series I was thinking about what potential developments in the Capaldi era.  One of my very first thoughts was that a good direction for the narrative would be to give Clara a boyfriend, given that her relationship with Capaldi’s Doc was likely to be far less romantically ambiguous.  That boyfriend would ground her somewhat, as well as rounding out her personality now she’s not The Impossible Girl (TM).

I also thought that a nice twist in the relationship would be that Clara’s new boyfriend turns out to be an ex-soldier. This, I felt, would make for some interesting discussions and potential clashes with the Doctor, who (as discussed above) has a very jaded view of the military and warfare. I envisioned him meeting the Doctor and recognising a fellow soldier, as others have before, leaving Capaldi’s Doc uncomfortable and defensive.

So two out of two so far.  But the piece de resistance would be if the third bit of my fantasy storyline comes true.

I thought a potentially neat (/nasty) swerve would see the lovely, wonderful, reformed ex-soldier fall madly in love with Clara, and her with him, only for it to transpire in the end that he was the real ‘big bad’ of the series, potentially The Master, or (even better) The Valeyard…

 

I’m feeling pretty good about the first two parts of my daft fantasy coming true (although I wish I’d written them down somewhere as evidence).  Anyone think I’ve got a shot with the third though??

 

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