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@craig Yes I did enjoy that dance track!

I couldn’t listen to that kind of music for a long time after I gave up my hedonistic clubbing days. I’d overdone it a bit. Hearing some tracks again now is bringing back some good memories tho’.

@whisht Didn’t mean to impugne the integrity of your thread 🙂 I didn’t know about the radio programme you mentioned.

Anyhoo, the Doctor described his time-line across the universe as “the tracks of my tears” so it has to be this song from Smokey Robinson.

Incidentally this is another “song pass key” in the run of them in these episodes, and it beautifully complements the scene with River because it’s a love song all about how the girl the singer is with now is just a substitute for his real lost love – awwwwwwww (although ouch for Clara):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coh7n6dYj5Y

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@phaseshift  Well that would fit the doppleganger foreshadowings to the 9th degree 🙂

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Hi gang!

Are we open for new members again now @craig ? And did @danmartin eventually manage to complete his registration? He’s suggesting a 50th meet up at ExCel in London in November. Sound tempting!

I’ve just posted an initial review over on The Graun. Score one to moi for the coming of dark Doctor. Whoo hoo – The Valeyard is on the way and he’s John Hurt (probably).

Score a resounding nul points for three exploding TARDISes, dalekisation of the Doctor, red and blue time-streams flickering together at infinite speeds. Dammit! For now, at any rate… I swear we’re not done with returning to past unsolved mysteries yet.

Loved seeing Gallifrey again. I always do. And Kingston oh my Kingston. Yes, as Dan says, the door is, happily, open for her to return as a projection from the Library once more. Surely she’ll be in the 50th, won’t she?

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<splashes excitedly into @whohar and @scaryb ‘s bath> <waves fins at everyone>

Spoilers successfully avoided so far.

See you tonight for the finale (which will leave us hanging for the 50th of course). I must bedeck myself in both red and blue.

Can’t wait to see my lovely River Song bird.

<hoovers up crumbs from behind the cushions and dives into another dimesion for a few hours> 🙂

 

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@scaryb thanks for “Mystery Girl” – that gave me chills too 🙂

I can’t play now alas as I have crappy work to do but really do love this thread…

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@lula OMG that’s a timey-wimey cock up wow – thanks for the heads-up

I’m going to have to figure out how to get Tumblr Saviour too although I don’t follow a tonne of Doctor Who blogs over there as I tend to keep my Who for here 🙂

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@trudawg Hello 🙂

Well the thread is @whisht ‘s baby so he’ll probably give you his take 🙂

I think of it as virtual decks/ music lounge where you can hang out with other people who are in the mood and share some good tunes. Sometimes people play a game of call and response, a kind of friendly “battle of the bands” where you see an interesting tune and raise someone another with some kind of connection to the first.  I’m frankly a bit rubbish at that so I just post things I like!

Sometimes there is a connection to Doctor Who or Sci-fi and frankly sometimes not.

I just tend to have some fun co-djing/ conversing via music with whoever is in here sometimes 🙂

@whisht can add to this I’m sure.

 

 

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@phaseshift Yes, I can see why you don’t want to put the prequel in the spoilers thread.

Maybe it should get it’s own thread, so those who don’t see it as a spoiler can discuss it and those who do can avoid it?

Can we do that?

To be honest I’ve succumbed and watched it 🙂 But I don’t want other people to feel that they can’t be in this thread until next Saturday…

Deciding what does and doesn’t count as a spoiler is very hard in this universe of Radio Times and BBC website spoilers. I actually saw a BBC photo of the two Matt Smiths from this episode on Tumblr just before it aired and I was so annoyed and so excited both, because clearly the dopplegangner Doctor trope I keep banging on about was in evidence but I didn’t want to know that in advance of the episode!

What does everyone else think?

 

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@craig I like that – a Cyber-Dalek war in the Doctor’s head, one designed to neutralise the other! Wow that really is a very nasty case of the space-flu 🙂

 

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@bluesqueakpip and @Shazzbot re the pawn becoming a Queen on the chess board….

Indeed and, as I mentioned in an earlier episode thread, this is precisely what happens to Alice in Through the Looking Glass which is structured around a chess metaphor (and which has been overtly referenced in the current season twice now).

@phaseshift I’ve played that Dr. Who game and being stuck on the locked room with the cyber-slave was actually really scary – it took me quite a few deaths to get out of there too! [btw of course I’d be happy to have the Bond/ Who comparison review on the blog – tell me what to do in the website comments thread and I’ll do it :-)].

Also, re the children, yes they really didn’t work as characters to connect to emotionally.

But were they supposed to? They came across as cyphers, puzzling add-ons… And then I remember the children in CAL in the library whom we see River tucking into bed in the final scenes in Forest of the Dead.

I think it’s looking likely that the Doctor and River have been in communication throughout the season (at least since Asylum of the Daleks) via some kind of psychic link and River has been “speaking” to him in the language of metaphor and parallel, dreamscapes, but not all a dream.

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@wolfweed  Good spot on the puppet from the God Complex ! I can’t shake the fact that that’s a key episode (given recurrent minotaur references (ball of string and maze) and the cloister bell, as well as the also recurrent monster-Doctor parallel, present strongly there.

What is Lampwick’s – is that from Second Life?

@bluesqueakpip Yes I think endless iterations is more likely than “it was all a dream”.

I would actually find it pretty cool if we end up seeing a dalekised Doctor in the Asylum, who has been going over and over ways to reverse the dalekisation process in his mind without contemplating it head-on because it’s too terrible (just as we saw Clara Oswin-Dalek build an imaginary reality for herself).

We’ve had endless cyborgs crop up, from the Wifi uploads of the GI to Tricky to Cyber-Doctor, so these may all be products of the Doctor’s unconscious, reworking the problem of his dalekisation over and over again, searching for the right solution – which, as you say, with all the music, seems to point to getting a message to River Song!

Love saves the day 🙂

I was a bit squicked (to use a fannish term) by the Doctor/ Clara flirtations this time and honestly a bit irritated. If she turns out to be a River avatar then fine, but I could do without the over 1000 year old Doctor making oogly eyes at Earth women in their twenties as a regular occurence. I got it with Rose, I understood Martha’s unrequited number, I loved it with River (but she was unquestionably adult) but I don’t want my Doctor to be a space Woody Allen, I really don’t.

Help, I am being cyber up-grade-ed to the Asexual Doctor Preservation Society 🙂

 

 

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Just nipping in to do a dance of dark Doctor joy. Gods Smithy’s just great at the tripping the dark fantastic isn’t he?

Mr. Clever was indeed a rubblish title, even worse than the King of OK 🙂 But the needling unhinged vitriol of Cyber-Eleven – wow – give me more!

Hearing the Ecclestone as well as the Tenant impersonation also gave me secret hope they’ll get Nine in the mix for the 50th yet.

I agree with @whisht – can we discuss the red prequel trailer and indeed all trailers on the spoilers thread please in the run up to the finale? Much appreciated.

I now need a re-watch to spot all the interesting objects at Wibbley’s World of Wonders.

Did anyone else wonder again about whether this is happening inside the Doctor’s head? Wibbley is his phrase after all, “wibbley wobbley timey wimey”, and he is a sort of Wibbley Wonka isn’t he (TIme Lord upgrade), so was Wibbley’s World his construct?

 

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@EveryoneNew Gosh – so many new sign-ups!  How marvellous.

Welcome, welcome, have a jelly-baby why don’t you.

See you all here and on Dan’s blog on The Guardian after Nightmare in Silver. We generally hop between the two places in the first couple of days post episode,  then settle in here, like lively thinky doormice, and chew theories together and nest (but without the nesting)!

Any new fish please report to the temple of @holymackerel for indoctrination 🙂

 

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Well cripes and crepes – so much to catch up on after only a couple of days away!

@confuseus I thought for a while River Song might be the Twelfth, despite the crossing timelines, and I think she would have pulled it off magnificently, but sadly not. I would have loved her as the Twelfth, she is quite brilliant, slightly psychotic, erratic, incredibly self-assured, mysterious, and oddly compelling – just as the Doctor himself is.

Heartily, heartily agree – and there’s some really fun fan-fiction to be written wherein it is discovered this is the case, ergo the Doctor managed to fall in love with and marry a future version of himself/ herself 🙂 Very Doctor really…

@phaseshift  What do you mean barmy, the Doctor is Osiris/ Ra I tell you! 🙂

I’ve been hiding from spoilers as much as possible urgh…

See you lovely folks after the ep!

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Whoa! Everyone’s on fire today! Just skimmed, cuz am working but “excellent bottom” all (to quote the good Captain Jack) – so many lovely layers and levels.

@ardaraith – that prequel is very interesting – hadn’t seen that before.  I presume it’s ok to discuss it here (I’ve been staying away from the spoilers thread).

I bet you the monk figure turns out to be the Doctor himself. I mean, he writes the symbol for Skaro in Gallifreyan. If not the Doctor then another Time Lord, surely? Or a headless monk? Hmmmm. The Doc is clearly wearing a blue-tie in this prequel.

I did like someone’s proposition (apols can’t remember who) upstream that perhaps Clara is Mme Kovarian.

If we are following the Osiris myth @phileasf then the Doctor dies (or – has already died) and is scattered through time/ space. River will be the one to gather his scattered parts and put them back together again, in so doing conceiving a child.  

And NB I joked a while back that the sonic would end up being a phallic symbol (in that Osiris’ penis was the only part which Isis could not find and had to recreate using magic) and blow me (sorry) if there wasn’t a sonic-erection gag from the Doctor this episode when Jenny stepped out in that leather cat-suit…

I am the Moff! 🙂  

 

 

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@htpbdet

 I think it’s time for another bet with you. I don’t think Moffat will tie up those issues you mentioned – I suspect they will be utterly ignored. And I don’t think the Doctor will be walking back in his timeline, correcting things.

Are we on?

Well now, that’s cheating. I was simply riffing on one of many possibilities rather than laying out my definitive predictions for the finale/ 50th! I prefer the two universes/ realities bleeding together theory to the re-writes theory.

I will bet, for the finale/ 50th (which I’m thinking of as a bit of a two-parter) that we will see a “dark Doctor” of some description, and that the Daleks, the GI, the Silence, the Angels and the Master will all make an appearance (not so sure about the last two but wth).

Oh, and I’ll also throw in that Clara is a Pond of some description.

Virtual tipple of choice again?

How’s that! 🙂

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@haveyoufedthefish Hahaha 🙂 Dark Doctor was awesome and so was the rainbow power of love magic…

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@whohar “The Boss” made me think of “The Master”. Now I think about it, one of the lines in the song “To Be a Pilgrim” which Mrs. Gillflower sings as she launches the rocket is:

“Let him in constancy, follow the Master…” !!

@thedoctordude @phileasf @bluesqueakpip @haveyoufedthefish

I like the idea that, as you say @phileasf “…the Doctor is now in the habit of going back again and again until he gets it right” as a possible explanation for why the photograph of the dead man’s eye at the start shows an image of an un-red Doctor and the version we see happen would produce an image of a red Doctor.

Equally though, I like my two different realities “running together at super-infinite speeds” theory too…

If the Doctor is running back over his time-line on a regular basis, fixing things to his liking, that surely can’t be a good. Mind wiping one’s companions in endless little time re-writes seems… distasteful – a Time Lord over-reaching himself in a god-monster fashion.

 

The eye-image, now I think about it, recalls the time Amy got a Weeping Angel in her eye in Time of the Angels – “whatever holds the image of an Angel, becomes an Angel…”

<laughs> I just do not know how Moff is going to tie-in all the little references to The Silence, the Angels, the Daleks, the Great Intelligence and now, possibly The Master in the finale/ 50th. However, these do make a rather delicious combination of “baddies”. There must be a “hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil” gag in there somewhere.  

I also have great visions of confused Daleks wearing eye-stalk patches.

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@feralcat Oooh that’s such a good catch on the GK Chesterton reference and definitely the kind of period fiction detail I would expect from Gatiss.

It’s a long time since I read that novel, but it is about a detective infiltrating a secret society of anarchists wherein it turns out the anarchists are, in fact, also undercover detectives. It’s therefore about how, when battling “monsters”, one takes on their form and it becomes impossible to tell which is which .

I’m not personally a fan of equating anarchism with nefarious monstrosity, but there you go, that’s Chesterton’s take.

I think we can see how this plot is applicable to the season long theme of dark / “monster” Doctor, the Doctor’s own view of himself as comparable to Khaler Jex in A Town Called Mercy being most telling perhaps.

Also – nice detail – at the start of the novel one of the “anarchists” argues (being a deliberate contrarian) that the London underground is the epitomy of beauty – a tie-in with the Great Intelligence, is it not?

Wow the levels on which Gatiss worked with this script!

 

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@scaryb – re anachronisms – hmmmnnnn <borrows @chickenelly‘s pipe>

Yes, time is being subtley altered? Or, we’re in a “through the looking glass” universe sometimes. I’m going to keep coming back to that quote about two realities flickering together at infinite superspeeds from JttCotT.

I’m increasingly fascinated by the petrified “red Doctor” of this episode and metaphorical links to the Red Queen in Through the Looking Glass, to the overarching red vs blue colour schematics – hands covered in blood? The Doctor “soaked in the blood of millions” (The Pandorica Opens)?

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@shazzbot I think Dan was just playfully teasing us – if he didn’t love us, he wouldn’t have linked us!  Love ya too Dan!

@jimthefish It’s still a fun space over there I think. I really enjoyed the Anthony and Cleopatra and Poe references picked up on over there this week. I loved our speculation at the tail end of last week on the way in which Time Lords measure time relative to Gallifrey etc. They go wide, we go deep!

You just have to ignore one or two complete nincompoops. Very happy we have our comfy sofa here as well tho’…

I like to think we have a symbiotic relationship with Dan’s blog – kinda like the relationship between Mrs. Gillyflower and Mr. Sweet? Haha 🙂 But which is which!?

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@ardaraith

I’m replying to your post in JttCotT here because it was about this episode…

Honestly I don’t know why the Doc is so frisky with Clara one minute and so grandpaternal with her the next. I mentioned up-stream it could be a writers’ tease on the question of sexual/ asexual Doctor in fandom.

Or, are we seeing two actualised versions of the Doctor, hence the photographs of him in the dead man’s eye (as not red) did not match the red Doctor the guy actually encountered at his moment of passing?

@miapatrick <waves> Hello there – enjoyable Jane Eyre/ Wide Sargasso Sea discussion on the other place.

Yes cyborgs are a running theme from Oswin dalek to the GI uploading people to the Wi-Fi to Tricky in last week’s episode (who was not an android but did have cyber-vision), so maybe Clara’s charges are not what they seem…

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@confuseus Welcome! Most of us watch the episodes a second time for fun clue-hunting here too.

I like your thought that Clara is a trap but an innocent trap.

I’ve thought for a long time that the Doctor’s name is the key to the Time Lock. The only thing is, that if the Doctor’s name is the answer to the “question” which must never be asked at Trenzalor, it would seem the Silence are keen to prevent the opening of the time lock…

The anti-Silence eye-patches did have a bit of a dalek-tech look to them…

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@timeloop Hello there – there are no “rules”, as such, about our interaction with Dan’s blog on The Guardian. 

This wonderful space was set up by our marvellous webmaster @craig when Dan’s blog on the Snowman Christmas episode was about to close, because we wanted to carry on the conversation. So, we’ve only been going for four months. Many, if not most, of the people on here, found there way here via The Guardian and many of us use the same avatar/ moniker there as we do here.

I like to think of Dan’s blog and this space as inter-connected parts of the Whoniverse with a watery portal/ wormhole in between. 

Many of us comment in both spaces (but some folk stick to just here). I think I’ve said before that over there feels a bit like conversation in a pub and over here feels a bit like a conversation on the sofa at home with friends. You tend to go down the pub first, but always come home to the comfy sofa for more in-depth conversations eventually!  I enjoy them both, although the nesting format  there has hampered my ability to keep up with conversations.

Debate and disagreement do go on here, but thankfully, gratuitous snark without wit or point stays over there!

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@Shazzbot – Yes you’re right – the first picture was ordinary Doctor, the second was “red Doctor”. Huzzah for more doppleganger Doctors!

@bluesqueakpip – oh nice on the out-of-time song references. I don’t know whether that means we’re seeing a flash-back, or whether it means that we are seeing an alteration of the time-lines. Perhaps we are, presently, in a not-quite-copy mirror universe…

On another note, I guess the Doctor was trying to get to Victorian London to see whether the TARDIS would permit it. If Clara now is the same Clara as Victorian Clara then presumably Old Sexy would avoid a paradox. The fact she took them to Yorkshire not London must surely suggest the Claras are the same person?

 

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@holymackerel

Re the Doctor and his flirt-fest. He did seem to have taken his happy pills this week.

Maybe the writers are having a laugh about the two versions of the Doctor running around fandom – asexual Doctor and sexual Doctor, and they sometimes depict a flustered sexually inept Doctor and sometimes a rather smooth flirty Doctor just to troll the lot of us 🙂

Now, what’s with all the red? I think “blood calls to blood” from Hide is probably significant:

Crimson, eleven, delight, petrichor.

The Crimson Horror.

Clara’s affinity for red outfits.

Red bow-ties = red shift = an expanding universe after the (triple) Big Bang.

The Through the Looking Glass references, which lead to the Red Queen.

The Little Red Riding Hood references (explicitly referenced in the Power of Three).

The Rose references (not that all roses are red of course, but that’s the first image of a rose that usually comes to mind).

All points to the blood kin of the Doctor as significant I think and probably also to the shedding of blood/ the crimes of the Doctor.

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Well I’ve had  a wee re-watch looking for song pass-keys.

The unfortunates at Gillyflower’s lecture were singing Jerusalem and Mrs. G herself sang To Be a Pilgrim as she pulled the rocket launch lever. She also played the organ. So there you go. These were narratively incidental rather than instrumental of course…

@jamesunderscore

horribly corrupted version of the Quakeresque “enlightened industrialism” of people like Cadbury and Rowntree

Yes indeed,  although versions of Gillyflower’s eugenicist mission was alive and kicking in the 19thC. Still not quite sure what Mr. Sweet was getting out of it, other than permanent residence on Mrs. Gillyflower? 

In fact eugenics and or miscegenation seems to be an ongoing theme. I’m thinking about Oswin Dalek but the GI was also “selecting” certain people in both its appearances. The Queen of Years was “bred” to be the keeper of songs in tRoA. 

Perhaps the Doctor’s historic crime (the crime older than the genocide of the Time War) was some kind of Time Lord genetic experimentation. That is strongly foreshadowed in A Town Called Mercy (it being Jex’s crime).

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@dalektable tea, scones, the lot! Welcome.

The Doctor is married but we’re not sure at this point whether he has said goodbye to River at The Singing Towers, so he might be on the grief-rebound.  In any case, I suspect, given that River once dated a nestene duplicate with a swappable head sometime on her travels after she met the Doc, that they have a timey-wimey non-monogamous arrangement. 

I’m a huge River fan. She’d just roll her eyes at the Doc’s little flirtations and then make him hugely jealous by out-playing him with Jenny, Captain Jack, everyone 🙂

 

 

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@miapatrick and @ardaraith and I have been discussing the references to Jane Eyre and Wide Sargasso Sea on The Graun. Ada and the Doctor as Bertha Mason and Mr. Rochester, but which is which?

More evidence that it is going to be hard to say who is a monster and who is not as we approach the season’s end…

@jimthefish your Ur-Monster recalls River’s speech about the things which have been done “in fear of” the Doctor in A Good Man Goes to War.

@scaryb re nailpolish – I know <tsk> it was very remiss of me!

How are we going to tie-in Isis and Osiris and Omega and The Silence and red fish/ blue fish and the triple Big Bang and all the rest in two episodes?! Because they are all going to be tied in, right? 🙂

Big cliff-hangers for the 50th…

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@holymackerel <waves at the God Fish in the machine>

Winifred Gillyflower….

GI red wolf in fire well ?

Clara is most closely identified with both red and wolf tropes (little red riding hood). She’s either the puppet of the GI or the key which will thwart the GI?

Any signs of dalekisation this week folks – eye-stalk-like objects, one eyed visions? I need a re-watch!

 

 

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@KatherineP over on the Guardian has neatly pointed out this:

“Mrs Gillyflower’s ‘The bright day is done, child, and you are for the dark’; which is a near-quotation from Antony and Cleopatra (Iras: The bright day is done, and we are for the dark”

Can you say foreshadowing?

The Doctor is a monster and “The bright day is done and we are for the dark.”

Dark Doctor non-believers, are you still certain? 🙂

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@scaryb Diana Rigg was marvellous!

@phaseshift Well done for thanking @danmartin (if that’s the actual DM) for his extremely kind rec for us in his article. Thanks Dan!

And comrades, ignore the troll. I urge you – such beasties feed on being noticed. Let’s not.

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Welcome back @craig ! Thanks for setting up The Crimson Horror thread.

Be still my beating heart, I’m in love with Jenny Flint. @timeloop she absolutely does indeed kick ass!

What struck me immediately was the Doctor as a crimson petrified monster (as I’ve said over on The Graun). “Crimson, Eleven, delight, petrichor” anyone?

I haven’t spotted the red settings on the sonic since Cold War on the other hand. Has anyone else?

I just do not know what’s up with Clara and the Doc. One episode he’s grandfatherly with her, the next he’s Mr. Flirty McFlirtison.

Can’t say I’m enamoured of Clara’s teen charges on the TARDIS. Could TPTB be setting up a new version of The Sarah Jane Adventures somehow, or was that little exchange just to underline Clara’s Mary Poppins meme yet further?

 

 

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@adlerinthelibrary

The production team really went to town with Amy’s outfits which were almost always red/ blue or combinations thereof. Her nailpolish too! Now even I didn’t make an episode by episode nail polish colour list 🙂

Dammit they were probably colour-coded morse code and the key to everything… [@bobbingbird 🙂 – I know I am a wicked fish ] 

 

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@idiotsavon Greetings!

“crimson eleven delight petrichor” can be rearranged to say “Doctor/River : Silence helping them”

Huh…  I sometimes imagine Moffat has a little army of flying helper-monkeys just to assist with cramming multiple meanings and clues, red-herring and otherwise, into the scripts. He sprinkles them everywhere, like fairydust!

@phileasf  and others, the storytelling theme is definitely a winner. Another quote, from Time of the Angels:

Doctor: “The Pandorica, that’s just a fairytale!”

River: “Aren’t we all Doctor, aren’t we all…”

There were some lovely discussions around the time of The Big Bang about Amy being from a mirror-universe where the Doctor was her storybook imaginary friend, but having stepped through the looking glass, like Alice, into “this” universe where her storybook was real, which I remember ruminating upon with @pedant among others.

Time to revive that one? It would explain why all the Pond women are “impossible” (Amy, River, Clara) because they are (River and Clara at least in part, being hybrids) from another universe “through the looking glass”…

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@adlerinthelibrary

 I love @juniperfish bow tie conspiracy, it’s my personal obsessive compulsive favorite

My dear Sir/ Madam “obsessive compulsive”? Whatever do you mean?!?!

I am still contemplating @whohar‘s left wing / right wing dichotomy and eyeing the Doctor’s choices in the different bow-ties to see which ones are more morally compromised 🙂

Welcome! Lovely to hear there are people far and wide reading this little blog. I do like seeing everyone’s inventive avatars popping up in the window, whether they are vocal-fish, shy-fish or lurker-fish.

 

 

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@scaryb Ooooh lovely Janice and wow lucky you Arthur Lee RIP

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@haveyoufedthefish and @davemorris316 I’ve been lost in music with @scaryb and I nip back here and I LOVE the time-loop-iness of Eleven being the TARDIS thief.

Gosh I am really hoping that David Warner returns as the First Doctor and River is indeed his wife, because the Warner-Kingston chemistry, and the Smithy jealousy, would sizzle.

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@scaryb – Oooh nice choice – I love that JA track…

My last for now – it’s Love “Forever Changes”

The present Doctor’s lament perhaps…

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@scaryb – whoa psychic! You posted Nico at the exactly the same time I was posting the Velvets (and Nico) 🙂 Hehe mirror universes indeed.

I’ve figured out now how to make the links “go live” btw for anyone else wondering.

You copy and paste the link from youtube on its own line here but you have to make sure it is NOT hyperlinked, so you go to the “visual” tab at the top, highlight the link in your text and then clink the “unlink” button which you can see at the top in “visual” mode – phew!

Now for some Led Zeppelin, well it’s spacey 🙂 

 

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Thanks @scaryb ! I am still having trouble embedding video.

Trying to get the hang of it, I will reply to my own tune, this time with the Velvet Underground’s “I’ll be Your Mirror” which yes @whisht has a Dr. Who theme because hello mirrors and watery portals…

 

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This one goes out to our piscean dj-meister @whisht because lo! it has a space theme, but it’s for all of us soft-hearted Whovians really, because we all know – “love saves the day”:

Lou Reed “Satellite of Love”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCMCS_xwtNK

 

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Welcome Lord @omega – yes another Time Lord – of course River is part Time Lord and she eventually becomes a Professor…

I have been wondering whether your namesake might put in an appearance however. What exactly is your connection to the Papal Mainframe?

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Prodigal dalek – Re-pro-ba-te!

Sleazy dalek – De-ge-ne-ra-te!

Is it getting old yet? 🙂

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@scaryb Lol

I should have said above – The Doctor is compassionate with Clara sometimes and not at all at other times! She told him flat out he was scaring her more than anything else on board in JttCotT…

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@ardaraith Aww sweet – I don’t think white is his colour tho’

@htpbdet and @blenkinsopthebrave

On a dark Doctor to come, I refer you to the words of Dorium Maldovar (whom @bobbingbird once famously thought was “responsible for everything”) in The Wedding of River Song:

You’re a man with a long and dangerous past. But your future is infinitely more terrifying. The Silence believe it must be averted.

Then there’s the “endless bitter war” with a future-Doctor whom some think of as a “god” which Madame Kovarian is fighting.

Also, the Alliance built the Pandorica for a terrible being, so the Doctor said in The Pandorica Opens:

“…a goblin, or a trickster. Or a warrior. A nameless, terrible thing soaked in the blood of a billion galaxies. The most feared being in all the cosmos. And nothing could stop it, or hold it or… reason with it. One day it would just drop out of the sky and tear down your world…”

 The interesting thing about a loop / an explosion of TARDISES is we could have been seeing versions of the Doctor both moving towards and away from that explosion throughout Smithy’s tenure – a split Doctor.

So yes, Eleven has been pretty damn dark sometimes ever since we’ve met him, but that doesn’t negate an actualised dark Doctor to come in our (the viewers’) future – in one of those flickering realities “running together at infinite speeds”.

I think it’s likely, as others have said, for the kiddies, that a dark Doctor will be because of nanobots/ the GI and may well be literally a doppleganger – as in we will get to see Smithy on-screen with himself in “light” and “dark” versions. 

Yes, he’s compassionate with Clara – the darkness is seeping through slowly as he is gradually “taken over”….. <cue scary music>

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@phileasf Now Smithy in drag I would very much like to see 🙂

Yes, I’m going with Clara as a Pond and the Doctor’s grand-daughter or great-granddaughter, who is also a temporary repository for his memories and pass-word protected by a Song.

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@scaryb

Would put a whole new spin on the Dr’s and River’s relationship tho… OK, I can be convinced!

Yes I went there too 🙂

I’d be more that happy with that and by no means averse to JLC as the Doc. It’s just that I don’t feel I’ve seen a consistent persona yet from her (which is not her fault as that’s what the script requires of her for now) so hard to judge.

I actually liked her “screaming genius” incarnation as Oswin Dalek best. That version seemed the most “Doctorish” to me.

As to the Doctor “going dark-side”. I think there are hints. Most recently his line in particular to Emma in Hide struck me. She asked him if the Metebelis crystal head-set was going to hurt and he said “no” at first then agreed that it probably would and that he’d be “quite interested to find out”!

That seemed alarmingly lacking in empathy…

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Yes agree with @thommck – fire away on the Spoiler thread @htpbdet (hope you’re feeling better) and @Fulcanelli

Luckily for us @thommck I think Summer Falls sounds as if it has been written to be as cryptic and ambivalent as the show proper 🙂

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@bobbingbird You started it 🙂

Now imagine a Murray Gold score in the background!

(I know, I know, some folk don’t like his work, but I really do…)

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