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RTD2 has been a curates egg. 50/50 so far, maybe 60/40 in favour.

Falling ratings… this is the significant measure. Also not. Lots of ‘big’ shows get cancelled. Flash Forward was a while ago. Was it that badly received? Severance won’t be cancelled but then it’s on a ‘grown up’ platform. And yes the ratings are great and the show is good: it’s the triple threat. Star Trek ToS was lucky to get a third season. TNG too.

So, is it a question of who you sign up with? I ain’t convinced Disney will ever ‘get’ WHO anymore than JD would ‘get’ The Handmaid’s Tale. Michael Grade had the gall to hammer WHO for not being Star Wars, which aside from the cgi, is EXTRAORDINARILY inferior and derivative sci fi saddled with idiotic dialogue. Really, IT IS.

Oh and MG wanted the budget for a soap opera.

The problem is always internal to the show: sci fi or fantasy; kids show or horror/satire? It’s a peculiar mix. Really quite idiosyncratic. Maybe the problem is Brits literally can’t afford to be distinctly British anymore. Anymore than they can make steel. Or NOT resent success. When we try, we get ‘household budgets’ and productivity quoted back at us by beancounters. Well, anyone can be cheap, but are they any good?

Preceding history: neither C. Baker nor Whittaker are bad actors. Conversely, Tennant rocked up on the back of Casanova, and his Hamlet rocked, whereas Tom was genuinely left field. But both had a creative and sympathetic showrunning team, NOT JNT and Chib.

Showrunner hubris? Surely JNT was out of depth and no one else fancied the gig? There is a case that because JNT didn’t give in, he prolonged the show. Good news if you like Vengance on Varos, or Ace. I do. The rest of post 1984? Not so much.

RTD may have given himself an impossible task this time. He does like to do everything all at once. Is this why the script edding now seems so dodgy? I’m sure it’s not for want of trying but you can’t polish a small brown Richard the third.

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@blenkinsopthebrave @whohar

RTD2 = JNT?? One fried cat does not an unfortunate partnership of an overpromoted showrunner and a script editor with a penchant for violence make.

It’s the presence of all those obvious construction lines that concerns me. Cartmel also made his construction lines very obvious and I’m not sure that always worked but it did go someway towards saving the original show.

This is a bit different: does Russ think he really needs to trumpet what he’s about in the face of lead brain online criticism? Is he ramming home WHO’s ‘spikier’ traditions… you know, concrete slabs, shouting ‘ginger’ at fey flanneled fools, sly comments about Victoria and werewolves, the Doctor Dancing… right there between the ears of The Mouse?

Is this JNT bad? Have we had a Warriors of The Deep yet? That spin off is looking a bit ominous. And Empire of Death was quite bad. But not Twin Dilemma or Time Flight bad. Not as consistently nonsensical as Chib.

In terms of my recent rewatches Hand of Fear and Underworld were pretty bad, and that’s the golden era, Robert Holmes in harness, what could go wrong? Hmmm quite a lot as it turned out. Will these new writers be up to Moff, Mathieson or even Whithouse? Maxine Alderton can obviously write dialogue… not even Chib could mess up Villa of The Diodati. Where is she? How did Chris Boucher only ever write three shows? No ona HAS to write for WHO; there are other gigs out there.

So, Robot Revolution was cartoony. It has a big neon message. Husbands of River Song, Good Man goes to War and Pirate Planet were cartoony too. So was Time Lash; the problem there was the writing. Alright… and the glove puppet, too.

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@whohar

Eiffel Tower = Romana. Is Scaroth riding on the coattails of Stupid Sutekh?

Blackpool = Clara. Perhaps a ‘new’ American Diner is opening up on the Prom!

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Hmmm. RTD2 seems to be trending slightly to the incoherent… NOT Chibnall crayon scrawl incoherence but it ain’t exactly the chutzpah laden clockwork of old is it?

But fair, if not VERY good.

Planet of The Incels would be a give away. Using the ‘I’ word was redundant really. We didn’t really need the Coercive Control Bomb either. The Testament of Russ was pretty clear, and Tin Plated Alan was doing what was said on the tin.

The seventeen years later/seven years later exposition was forced, as if the mechanics of the plot got away from Russ. Not sure how the Diploma worked or where and why the ‘schwup’ time rift started… was that explained or will it be or should we just not think too hard about it?

‘Egg and sperm’… “polish polish” was almost Elton Popish. Otherwise, either the naughty kitten cats have been chomping Russ’ garden birds or he’s a secret fan of Hale and Pace.

Obviously, Belinda is Martha mark 2. Though without the one sided flirting. The Doc getting ticked off about DNA sampling was a nice contrast to Roger Williamson/RFK jnr state genetic fascism. BUT we seem to have bought an lp of Russ’ greatest hits. Or perhaps he’s saying ‘honestly guys. Didn’t think I’d be back here; there’s only so many stories you know.’

Last thought… Taxis… Eiffel Tower… is The Doc just saying there’s something in the way or does he know The Earth has gone? But he can’t tell Belinda?

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@thane16

Severance is a brilliant dissection of Freaky Corporate Nonsense that is irrevocably changing the world. We particularly liked the ‘egg bar social.’ Although the original idea for Dot and Bubble was pitched 15 years ago, I wonder is Severence influenced the design.

Not seen the Mirror and The Light yet. The first series of Wolf Hall was extraordinary. Mark Rylance is peerless but lots of other amazing performances.

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@blenkinsopthebrave
The Robot Revolution, Wish World and The Reality War all seem to resonate to my mind.

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Just a thought about Gatwa’s facial hair in this ep… someone else mentioned it… and it wasn’t apparent in other eps was it…? Was it??

Is this an attempt to help us empathise with Lindy? Two weird artificial worlds, what do you do your sensibilities to navigate virtual reality? Because I think the impression given is very very similar to the character of Seth Milchick from Severance.

This is uncomfortable territory. Is this, ‘You all look alike?’ Or is it a pointed criticism of Severance? (love the program btw) Like English actors in Hollywood representing the entitled malign, is this a new sad old way to signal unreasoned threat?

Mind you I was uncomfortable with RTD doing a similar thing with David Harewood as Joshua Naismith in The End of Time. Also thinking Bernie Casey as Mr Peters in the Man Who Fell to Earth.

Does this make the ‘voodoo’ line even more charged? Or are you going to tell me Gatwa’s tache was grown for another role?

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So…

The Doctor thinks it odd that Munday from Boom has rocked up…

People being ejected into space from something that is apparently NOT the Tardis: a classroom? a village hall? A diner???

No obviously familiar villains…

Gatwa deploying his rather arch ‘rock through time’ intonation. That could get a bit annoying.

Rylan Clark!

Otherwise… flashy.

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Having given up on rewatching the Legend of Ruby Sunday, basically because I’m not that fond of UNIT, I found returning to The Giggle a bit hard work.

A lot of it was great, good acting, well visualised, and theres no problem with 14 surviving as a shell of man. Mel… for me she will always be a desperate attempt by JNT and Grade 40 years ago to make the show wholesome again. Is that what RTD is trying to signal?

And ultimately the Toymaker just rolls over: an adjunct to the bigeneration. Also I now know the sequel… the next series… will be a bit of a curate’s egg. In particular the yawny UNIT bits seem to be a dry run for ‘Legend of Death.’

And all those ‘clues’ may or may not just be a waste of time. Because he said so. Oh!

But why Bill and Sue and 3 babbies? Why? And why Mavity? The Doctor almost recognises the change. Why does he not question the presence of The Vlinx? If one significant thing has changed, why not others? Isn’t virtual reality a game? Is the Toymaker really defeated?

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Again I would LIKE to avoid tropes and nit picks. Good ep. Creepy. Threat.

This would seem to be a template. Templates have an advantage. You don’t have to resolve a beginning…

Problem:

1. what is mavity about? Because… DoctorDonna haven’t just changed a law of physics. Something else is going on.

2. coffee. Lame.

3. salt at the edge of the universe… is that Glumdoc leading us by the nose, or does he already think something is up? Cos he’s quite ready to say the GR word. And realise no-one knows what he means.

4. I’m uncomfortable with the ‘rescue real Donna’ sequence. Dunno why yet.

My doubts are probably to do with fantasy/sci-fi. Got to be careful with fantasy. Imagine what fantasy could do to Realpolitik!

Probably best new ep apart from Dot and Bubble

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@nerys
I wonder if RTD’s instinct is for a lot of Brit jokes and he knows he needs to be more Cosmopolitan in Age of The Mouse.
The escape sequence was really slightly weird, complete with it’s own Tennant plus periwig lampshade. Non lethal guns. No loft rooms. RTD, in the first run, would have had SO much fun with that idea. But it doesn’t translate to a nation replete with mansions or trailers. So all we get is some saddo zushing on his sofa.

RTD is welcome to the odd ep like this, and actually it’s better than ok. Then 1/2 of the following series was rather unrealised. Hmmm. Dunno. Something going on…

Wild Blue Yonder next…

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A year and a bit on, revisiting RTD’s 60th anniversary specials, my initial thought is that was fun. Who has to be fun. I became reluctant to invest time in Chibnall’s work. So I didn’t. And that’s over!

It seems a shame to nitpick. The development of this story has obviously been influenced by the new production partner, and the kiddie friendly plot chosen as an easy sell. This may not have jelled very well with RTD’s method. 14 was a quite somber reincarnation, the ham tucked away at the back of the fridge.

I found the element of gender critical reaction astonishing. But, here we are online and, surprise surprise, it is potentially a very nasty environment.

Observations… never before seen a sonic screwdriver do anything quite as useful as that business in Donna’s house. Or since.

Big earthquake and fissures caused by The Meep’s absurdly destructive space ship… Inferno kinda gives that form. As I said at the time, I was more worried by this very substantial steel works somewhere other than Port Talbot. Or China.

Oh. And the escape from the house. And Donna spilling coffee: another Infinite Improbability joke perhaps? Oh and lots of coincidence lampshaded by ‘the vortex moves in mysterious timey wimey ways’ headscratching statements. But there always is.

You want it to be really really great, and actually it’s no more nor less flawed than most of the first run. Though RTD was also responsible for some wonderously perfect eps… and this wasn’t that by some way. But I have been entertained both times I’ve seen it.

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Is it Weyoun? Or Rubio? Or someone being very facetious? You just don’t know, do you?

I’m sorry, it’s all gone post truth. When AI can tell jokes, us snowflakes have had it.

Look at Lukaschenko! He’s hilarious. Just got to work out when exactly. And why…

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@winston

But what if there were eight Rubio clones??

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I don’t want to worry or disturb anybody but has anyone ever seen Marco Rubio and Weyoun from Deep Space Nine together in the same room?

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@nerys @janetteb

yesss… anyone else running a news blackout? This week is worse than rewatching World Enough & Time/The Doctor Falls… though I LIKE WE&T/TDF…

W&G was wonderful. Apart from the ‘fact’ that no one checked the… oops, spoilers. Maybe no more ridiculous than any of those Scandinoir plots involving meatheads, who are released from jail, not just with a fistful of City and Guilds, but as Dr Evil.

Back to Aardman, I particularly enjoyed Norbert’s voice artist. He never really got a crack of the DW whip. And Julian Nott’s classy music.

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@badkitty6

I found this in the back of a drawer…

Androgum UnSociety For Galactic Domination, Annual Dinner, Ceti Alpha Hilton

Hors d’oeuvres

Salad of smoked Rat with marinated Vervoid and ‘Captain Cheesy’ parmesan

Risotto of detoxified Usurian eyebrows

L’escargot ‘Mestor’

Soup

Karabraxan Brain Soup

Fish

Whole Thorosian Mentor stuffed with Towering Cliff Ham and non Kosher Ocean Sauce

Fritto Misto (Whole Gumblejack, Heth Fin, Jimfish fry, and sliced Kroll tentacle)
Meat

Thal Thigh Thermidor ‘alla Tritev’

Aged Highland Jack skirt with bashed knees

Manhattan Barbecued Pork Slave

Steamed Sevateem Tongue

Coronically Escovitched Leg of Sontaran

Sides

‘Chavvy Rose’ Chips

Roast Krynoid

Two Dimensional Boneless Salad

Purple Celery

Deserts

Imperial Dalek Walnut Whip

Fish Fingers and Custard

Jelly Babies

Your Androgum child must NOT be allowed to consume a whole Imperial walnut whip or it will be VERY ill

The barbecued Pork slave could be the origin of ‘spork’

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@badkitty6

Of course. Androgums. Don’t think they ever made a return funny enough. I dread to think what the diet of juvenile Androgums is like. ‘We all know how bad that tastes DON’T we children…?’

Interestingly, even Shokeye drew the line at eating rats and Sontarans, though he was seen holding Commander Stike’s dismembered leg at one point. At a loss with what to do with it perhaps.

Dalek’s… do Androgums, with their nose to tail peasant cuisine, go for canned calamari? Also as we know from Revelation, Parting of The Ways, and Journey’s End, Daleks do go for dubious additives.

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@badkitty6

you’re Androzanian child is more reminiscent of Ace I think.

Perhaps there was a revolution on Androzani (Major)… the elite were incapacitated by Spectrox addiction and everything collapsed. In which case the next generation might well be quite crazy.

Best steer clear of Daleks tho.

I’d love some Androzani prequel fics. How did the Sharaz Jek/Morgus back story play out? Did Jek ever meet Taren Capel? Or Morgus get investigated by Poule?

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@badkitty6

Bats… The Caves of Androzani of course has giant bats which, unfortunately, Doctor 5 has to milk…

Adam… 6 would started out as generally quite unsympathetic and then mellowed. 7 and 10 would probably seem as harsh as 9. I think most of the others would have tried to have Adam’s surgery reversed, though 12 would probably give him an entire new head and 11, hide the port holographically.

Actually, for all this ‘one chance’ business, I’m sure 9 intended to go back and help Adam. Then he ran into Jack.

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@badkitty6

sorry about that last post… I hope you the gist of it.
Really don’t know about Gargoyles, just keep it in character. Angel Bob in Time of Angels was quite devious as was the Time energy factory of early C20th Manhattan.

Doctor 2 reserved his mendacity for villains but the straight talking Jamie often didn’t like it much. 10 obviously knew something about The Angels… so it might be 2. Might he have run into The Monk, who had originally been sent to earth to combat its Angel infestation?

What would 2 have done with Adam? He was a bit more forgiving than 9, who was still working through his PTSD. I think 2 would have expanded Adams consciousness so he didn’t misuse his ill gotten knowledge, given him a head band, and advised him to avoid West Side Story… at least ‘When you’re a Jet…’ and Motown vocal ensembles.

 

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@badkitty6

it is def Aikido… the venusian kind. 3 was kind odd a nod to Bond and Mission I no possible. Glad you like  Inferno!

‘Oh my giddy aunt’ and ‘oh deary me’ are 2’s calling cards. He is also a wonderful liar, blusterer and all round slippery customer. Never trust a hippy.

The audience loved Jamie but the girls kinda stood well back… I assume he had C18th hygiene. Perhaps he could develop a fascination for a Weeping Angel? ie it literally can’t run away.

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@badkitty6

Gargoyles… 1990’s tv series getting Disney+ reboot?? Sorry, not really familiar with the franchise but assume you’re equating the goyley ones with The Weeping Angels? They are cool monsters!

If that is case your wish list should include Sally Sparrow, a bunch of militant vicars and maybe Sam Spade.

K-9?? “Shooting stone angels ineffective master. Powering down.” Venusian Akido wouldn’t really do the trick either. The second doctor was brilliant but you need to get the dialogue right. Leela would be wasted because, as 10 said, you can’t kill a stone.

Personally, I think Doctor 6 was hilarious, but most people just found him ridiculous and/or offensive. Wouldn’t mind reading about a bunch of New Yorkers mocking Peri’s accent though.

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@dentarthurdent
zero sum… dunno. Donnie does like to deal. And the deal needs to look good to the buyer. It’s more that he doesn’t really bother to think that hard about it.

His instincts are:
what have I done before that might work? Obviously this in property but money is real, right? Rich guys in Russia are obviously on to a good thing but Vlad also uses that to control them. Maybe I need to be tough like him. Make lots of money for important (wealthy) people and stuff may fall from the bird-feeder for the little guys.

can I get away with it? I can fix the courts but it still might be embarassing. People tell me I shouldn’t get angry. Don’t want to look like a loser.

will it cost me votes? Because if I’m out I can’t fix the courts. They had me rattled for a bit.

The disruption principle is more relevant… not to Donnie because I doubt if he really knows who Hayek was, but the general strategy, to create a crisis which makes your opponents look like ‘morons’ and then move in with ideas that deliver the things you want, would appeal.

Suddenly the super-rich tech rats have jumped ship. They like a ‘free-lying speech’ digital world and REALLY want to stay super-rich. Musk obviously wants to be super-rich in space. We could be looking at the advent of Azimov’s ‘Spacer’ culture…

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@dentarthurdent @nerys @winston
Why?

1. Disruption… give things a shake and see what falls out.

2. Mess up liberal opponents so we can give more sympathetic parties a leg up. Elon is helping with this. He’s very good. Very sane.

3. Justify protectionism. We need to show we got something back.

4. Lay the ground for the resolution of the Ukraine War.

i. This might be, hey Vlad, you like to push your weight around don’t you. We can too.

ii. More probably… Vlad, if you really want those bits of Ukraine, we get Greenland, understood?

iii. Also… NATO guys, you really like NATO? Then you won’t mind us getting Greenland, will you?

5. To make money, because protectionism will make everyone poorer. Except us, because we were ready.

6. There’s no such thing as bad publicity. And if you think there is, you’re probably with Antifa.

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@winston

hmmm. Talk about ‘may you live in interesting times!’

Apparently, Seward wanted to grab Greenland in 1867, when the US purchased Alaska, presumably while the Danes were still reeling from the Schleswig War. Congress blocked him! Upstanding Democrats that they were.

I suppose you could sub Ukraine for Schleswig. Also that would reduce Canada to an inconvenient little stretch of land between the east and west bastions of  North America. Shaman and The Proud Boys could invade through the panhandle of Idaho!

Apparently the Danes have a dodgy claim to Greenland, having scarpered with it when Norway was forced to get into bed with Sweden. This is The Monroe Doctrine looking North East for a change. Oh these perfidious Europeans! They’re all so conflicted. Delinquent. Let’s face it, the fate of Iraquois and the Five Civilised Tribes was so not dodgy. Also, unconflicted, and hardly perfidious at all.

And it happened a long long time ago. Calm down Donald.

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Mavity… 15 talks to Holo Trev about where the case is and asks about ‘rotational mavity.’ I could not find it again… thought I was going mad! I mean I thought I heard something about Trump invading Greenland and becoming Father Christmas….

Another problem though… if the Silurian Hotel Manager was the ultimate upgrade and could presumably go straight to the top floor… why did he choose Joy’s room? Unless he was only trailing a coat for 15… ie it was a trap for The Doctor all along! He was very keen for 15 to take the case. But, in that case, why didn’t the first carrier approach 15?

Also, why didn’t the Silurian just use the tree house door to get home? OK, maybe he liked slumming it in the hotel.

nb one of the other doors appeared to be for Bag End! But then this would seem to be a virtual reality…

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Also, did you all notice the return of Mavity?

virtual reality.

Need to go back to Star Beast and Wild Blue Yonder…

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I mean Space Odyssey of course!

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@devilishrobby
The things not so bad as first thought… Bethlehem… I can handle that. Kid gets born in challenging circumstances while arms manufacturer inexplicably supplies handy star. Anticipate a trio of Parthian visitors. This seems reasonable. It does break with the ‘no religion’ WHO protocol IMHO. I wonder why? Moff and Russ thumbing their noses at The Mouse maybe?

The things that didn’t work…

The code and the paradox. Not sure what metaphysical point Moff was trying to make. I assumed it must just take a year for the Doctor to get clever.

The ‘hotel room is the real you’ schtick. Does that mean people who stay in Premier Inns are all clones? Who REALLY gets to choose their hotel room? Yes the bolshy people who give hoteliers hell are legendary but I assume that’s because they got lucky once and dined out on it forever after.

The room didn’t even look THAT bad. Now, if there was a Minotaur stalking all the guests who were all going mad…
Or, if all the lifts broke down, the chef was incapable of cooking chips and the receptionist arrogantly uninterested (Travelodge Poole you know who you are… the actual room was fine) I could empathise. But Anita was so lovely I don’t really understand why the Sandringham wasn’t packed out with shepherds while Iranian mystics smothered her with bling, perfume and embalming fluid.
More Anita please.

Yes, it is actually your home that displays you. The hotel room is just a small space full of you. Hi. Feeling uncomfortable?

Of course The Doc is trying to shock Joy… but this bit did creak.

Villengard… yeah… I have speculated we could be dealing with a Valeyard/Vlinx alliterative happening. But why make a star? Is this a nod to Clarke’s 2010 Space Oddity 2? ie the intention was never to burn the Earth, but rather bring say Europa or Titan to life? Does someone inimical want its own species to fight for it, paint pretty pictures of it and call it Dad?

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@blenkinsopthebrave @cookgroom @whohar

’Moff’s last outing’… I may have been extrapolating from Moff’s apparent reluctance in accepting RTD’s invite to write for the last series. ‘Oh go on, twist my arm.’

Otherwise, I may well have assumed incorrectly whilst suspecting correctly… the emphasis on Villengard indicates Moff and RTD are cooking a big fat arc together.

Wouldn’t it be great if Mathieson and Whithouse could be tempted back too? Maybe not the servile rat-people. Or are you going to tell me that’s been announced too? Might Not Be Suitable For Disney tho.

Joy and the bomb… star seed… whatever… I think, over 65 million years, the stooges between them subverted Villengard’s programming. Joy had been de-conditioned, so she could exercise her free-will, save the world and be reunited with her mother. And levitate faster than light. Hmmm.

But in any case, that’s what brings a triumvirate of Zoroastrian priests to Judea (actually about 3 BC… those old timers lost count somewhere.) Spacetime coordinates essentially.

‘There are a bunch of shepherds outside…’

‘We are bedding down in a stable you know!’

’And now some Persians have rocked up with blingy merch!’

’Woah. That doesn’t happen everyday. Is there something you haven’t told me?’

Perhaps we shouldn’t read any more into the nativity element, which rather lets WHO off the hook.

Thank goodness for that.

Unanswered question: why did Villengard want to blow up the earth in the first place?

Unanswered question 2: who has a Tree House in the Cretaceous?

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@dr-pepper-bean

well, as Voltaire might have said, if there wasn’t already a religion which has, for the last 1600 years, been throwing up its hands at the suffering and injustices of this world whilst reasoning that the slavishly obedient or insensate ones will be rewarded in a purely hypothetical next one, and simultaneously condemning those who can’t deal with this revolting process, you might have to make it up.

Mind you, that aspect of the story was the bit I liked least.

So, not weird exactly. Who knows, maybe Moff did this on purpose. Could he be an unreliable witness to the ressurrection? Because we have here a concatenation of rebirth for various victims of Villengard’s wonderful tech… definitely not nativity.

WHO doesn’t normally play with any specific religious elements. Sounds good to me. But Moff can write. So, these elements shouldn’t be accidental. Is he kicking back against good ol wholesome Disney? Or just doing his average play with Christmas tropes? Bear in mind this is supposedly his last outing. Well, maybe not.
Villengard is clearly significant. Translates as ‘the wild garden,’ in norse languages. Valeyard maybe ‘old man’ in french… but there is a superficial phonetic resemblance.

And something beginning with V is lurking within UNIT

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Of course the bottleneck was the Cretaceous tree house, not the culty cave in the Levant. Doh

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I need to watch it again. I certainly need to hear the Silurian’s testament again. Important details there, I’m sure.</p>
But I feel I could be entertained and carried along by it… again… in a way that ‘The Legend of Death’ still has not. Rewatching that really does feel like a waste of time. Which is curious because the flaw in both is the dubious metaphysical resolution. Is that Disney at work? Or just a general plea for us not to give in even though we appear to be surrounded by murderous idiots.</p>
Or does it take 65 million years for a bunch of hopeless outsiders to subvert Villengard’s programming? And enable Joy to develop faster-than-light psycholevitation. Or was that because the extensive reprogramming during Boom? Who was in the cult cave that prevented suit case guy from marching in at the start. Might be better to avoid that. As Who has done until now. I was waiting for a Life of Brian reference. It didn’t arrive.</p>
The lockdown references seemed quite sound.

High points. The hotel concept. Supersized Dinosaur again… why not? Maybe they got that big but we ain’t dug one up yet. Doctor does the caretaker/lodger/trapped in time thing. Anita and Joy were both curiously underwritten but perhaps that’s always been the fate of occasional characters in Who. I would like to see Anita again tho.

The bootstrap paradox rehash was a bit ho hum. Just show this timewimey ‘thing’. It’s not like dumb intentional plot holes of Eternity or Time Lash… ‘gosh Doctor how did you do that?’

It wasn’t Last Christmas or Husbands of River Song but the leads aren’t characters Moff has invested in, I suppose.

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@translatorcircuit

Yes, it would indeed seem to be the case that you can’t successfully cut a story by 2/3rds. Inevitable really.

I’m sure there were other Pertwee/Baker T references to the 1980’s. So why show 1970 at all? Who ended up there?

Not only is The War Chief quite Mastery, the War Lord’s bunch are pretty Vardanesque. Psychic powers. Different flavour. Even the Time War’s much vaunted time lock turned out quite permeable.

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@translatorcircuit @blenkinsopthebrave

A hatchet job? I was a bit unsure about trimming nearly 2/3rds from the story.

On the other hand 10 eps was too long and the fannying around in the various timezones was extraordinarily tedious. So was the demonstration of the sonic screwdriver… time to make yourself a cup tea perhaps? So was the shouty scenery chewing between the War and the Security Chief. So was scenery chewing of Arturo Villar.

It’s a worthy effort. Might have been better as 2 one hour specials: The War Games and then The Time Lords. It is effectively two stories.

I thought the adaptation became stronger as it went on. The initial set up had the same sequence of revelation as the original. Perhaps General Smythe could have retained a sense of mystery for longer, with a gradual discovery of his hypnotic powers, the discovery of the telescreen and the MFI wardrobe… sorry SIDRAT. The beginning was far too telescoped.

Wasn’t Phillip Madoc brilliant?

And surely The War Chief is supposed to be The Master?

Continuity… The Two Doctors… supposedly that happens before Fury From The Deep… Jamie talks as if they’ve just left Victoria or are going back. But then Jamie would know about the Time Lords, unless he’d been mindwiped, but equally at that point They couldn’t have known what The Doctor had been doing (guilty conscience… he couldn’t say no?)

Also I’m sure, when he was given his regeneration options he said something like ‘he’s too fat!’ which would have been a chance to show Colin Baker and have sone AI wizardry add ‘and he’s a colourblind poltroon!’

So, the regeneration to Pertwee seems straight forward. But what do you make of the 1970/1980 readout. Although we haven’t seen it, is this actually a bigeneration? The Time Lords say ‘the secret of the TARDIS will be taken from you… but that more accurately describes Ruth doesn’t? She seemed to have been chameleon-arched. The Time Lords just vandalised Pertwee’s TARDIS.

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If you can access BBC iplayer or BBC 4… and you would hope it will be on other platforms soon… The War Games, from 1969, is being broadcast on Monday in a reduced colourised version…

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr5639r46rlo

I think this is great news. Not least because the story has been drastically telescoped from about 250 minutes to 90 minutes but also colourised.

I don’t want to spoil the plot for anyone who has avoided this giant slab of Classic Who so far, but it’s a terrific and canonically hugely significant story, with a (possibly) contentious regeneration. I have distant memories of my family’s intrigue when they discovered the story was not all was what it seemed… and then the boredom as it went on and on week after week.

So, to edit it down to 9o minutes (ie from 10 to 4 eps) is quite an achievement and must make the story stronger. I can’t wait!

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@blenkinsopthebrave @dentarthurdent @winston

We seem to be getting away from Sutekh and Ruby… I will finish that ep at some point, but I thought I’d continue the discussion here.

Fantasy is rehashed pre-scientific/modern ethical belief systems. Generally the milieu doesn’t require an elaborate introduction or world building because we’ve all encountered fairy stories and/or bullet-headed traditionalism. Though, as had to be pointed out to me in a writing class, fairy stories are NOT fantasy nor vice versa. I am laying aside and avoiding traditionalism along with all those deities from Who I mentioned in my other post.

Hard sci-fi: The Forever War was great… not read it in years. Something odd and transcendental happens to the protagonist, though. Could do without that nonsense. Though nice to see some sort of character development. Cyberpunk left me cold. Hard sci-fi doesn’t really do characters. One meatbag is pretty much interchangeable with other meatbags.

As I say most sci-fi is Space Opry meets Dali’s melting clocks. I really liked The Helliconia Trilogy (warning… a major investment in time), which seems to be fantasy masquerading as sci-fi, until we realise it’s become a reality show being broadcast to a post apocalyptic Earth. Crazy aliens believe stuff about the world which can be explained by Kepler, Einstein and Darwin. Ho ho. And then we find out, in the end, that the two worlds somehow emote with each other. Hmm.

I revere The Lensman series; rubbish science, but really is allotropic iron and neutralisation of momentum any more trashy than hyperspace? Hence Douglas Adams’ not very sly jokes about faster than light travel. The purpose of sci-fi is throw ideas out there. E E doc Smith certainly does that in spades, and that’s where Azimov started out… not sure about most of his post 70’s output.

My opinion is that ill considered science or the presentation of soft sci-fi is very different to resorting to sprayed-on fantasy tropes. There is an obvious contradiction – a certainly ain’t just a tension – between the scientific method and traditionalism. This doesn’t mean to say I don’t like some fantasy. I even admire the Harry Potter films, and certainly more than the books. Whatever else you think of Rowling her imagination is a party and she writes good dialogue in service of the character. Easy peasy for Mr Kloves. His problems began when he had to branch out on his own.

My problem with other fantasy adaptions is they are just so grindingly mundane. Andy Serkis as Gollum? Brilliant. Serkis IS brilliant. Then they story-boarded it. UHHH. OK. Want to big up Arwen? Great! Merge her character with her brothers (from the book) and get groovy with the Dunedain on The Paths of The Dead. Nope. She stays a little elf lady. Do you like my dress? And why not present Aragorn as the frothing psycho butcher of Return of The King (I mean the book)? “Let the vermin be cast in a pit!” See, that could be fun. It is like Akhaten… you can make visual candy BUT you also need to honour the story. Or even have a story.

The Legend of Death… I dunno. Lot’s of visual candy. I hope some of the sprayed on fantasy tropes peels away with time. RTD has studiously avoided this before. The most 10 ever admits is things “are really old,” like Syd Barrett listening to ‘Wish You Were Here.’ The Beast of the pit wasn’t all there. Stuff from the dawn of time, like The Carrionites and The Racnoss, is generally pants. Taking the dog for a walk?? I ask you. Sutekh’s not a dog. He’s not a god, he’s just a very naughty alien….

…now hold on a moment.

 

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@dentarthurdent @blenkinsopthebrave

Greatest Show… the gods of Ragnarok, Fenrir, the Guardians, whatever it was in the Satan Pit… deities/all powerful beings are best laid aside and avoided IMHO.

I always thought Greatest Show was a hyper reality… a projection of forces playing out in reality… a bit like The Matrix.

Of course Ace turned out to be a child of Fenrir… so the first super companion, if you don’t count Romana. So are super companions bound up with ‘Cartmelism’? Superdocs attract super companions? Only Martha was really ordinary… and I would say also very special indeed. The Fam were just mundane.

Rose was badwolf girl, incipient Director of Artron energy to all space time. Donna would be Doctordonna: kinda same thing. The Doctor was presumably drawn to Amy because the universe was collapsing around her.

Clara jumped into the Doctor’s timeline which makes her Extremely Abstract Girl. Then something changed; it was never spelled out but I assume being hooked up to a dalek casing changef her outlook… you imagine that would.

What is Ruby? Unanswered as yet… she seems to be a metaphor/projection/substitute for Susan Foreman… ie The Doctor is actually tasked with finding his daughter… or a son (?!!)… or, if this individual is s Timelord themselves, is that a valid distinction?

Squidgy scifi… all sci fi has to be a bit soft. In space no one can hear you scream with boredom. Even Hitchhiker’s Guide was soft with parody and satire… like the infinity improbability drive… you ain’t going anywhere fast boys.

Akhaten… habitable rings with gravitational field and atmosphere… sentient cosmic bodies… once you ask those questions it becomes very squidgy sci fi. E E Doc Smith had sentient stars in The Vortex Blasters… and Zchib used that in 42. It’s sci fi of some kind.

Fantasy normally has pre scientific rationalisations of the universe replace or underly reality. Different thing. I used to like Fantasy but the mundanity of most visualisations has put me off. Can’t suspend disbelief anymore.

Now the visualisation of Akhaten was marvellous… it’s just the story was inconsequential.

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@blenkinsopthebrave @dentarthurdent

fantasy of that ilk really doesn’t make any kind of sense in DW. Which doesn’t mean to say an established sci fi series can’t be trashed out of hand… like ST Enterprise. What were they thinking? And DW is pretty squidgy sci fi to start with, but RTD must know you can’t make that work.

I don’t TRUST the signs but I HOPE. It looks like a Deadly Assassin/Ultimate Foe tease to me. Someone’s messing around.

Still, an odd game to play after the trashing the show took from Zchib.

I have yet to complete the the full season end. The lady in the tent and Ruby’s family reveal were the best bits. Need to look at how big spear/crazy hat and his dna library fits in too…

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@dentarthurdent

This series seemed to be taking off after a couple of falsish starts. Perhaps Rogue was a little loaded with pointers but an arc requires some construction work. ‘The Legend of Death’ is, however, an eyesore.

Junior science officer is there because woman on wheels has done a runner with Max Capricorn’s tooth. On another note, when Maurice Gibbons talks about ‘the obvious’, do you think he meand The Toymaker? The Master? Didn’t spot that first time.

So, we have a suture of the Susan Triad and Ruby Sunday mysteries. With added Flood, who talks about her mum dying of an ulcer, after diabetes and a hip operation. An unlikely biographical detail don’t you think? Must either be a lie or metaphor, cos batty next door neighbour she ain’t.

The chat isn’t sparkling. This version of UNIT is Famlike. The Timewindow takes up far too much time and dialogue. Of course, we may being played a major riff on virtual reality. However, Mel is not my favourite former companion. By some way. Adric may have been less irritating and, let’s face it, he fell victim of Campari on Castrovalva. Anyway, they Dropped a Bridge on Him. At least Mel doesn’t scream. Is that character progression?

As a season end set up, this is significantly less satisfying than any of the RTD’s first run. And it was the penultimate shows were generally preferable to Russ’ dodgy resolutions which could normally be relied upon to set the dog off.

So, not a good sign. That is, we know it will all turn out kinda ok. Rose (1) may end up in a parallel universe; Martha may tell 10 to get stuffed and Donna have her noggin wiped. But how the hell do you reassemble people from dust?

It’s a problem. And Russ’ answer was most unsatisfying.

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@dentarthurdent

I do need to watch these 2 eps before the xmas special. Been putting it off. The finale, as I remember it, was pretty unsatisfactory, even compared with those two rather odd opening eps. Will attempt it however.

The middle of the series was first rate. Even Rogue was very entertaining. Strange about the rest…

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@drwho3556

On the one hand, one crack does look pretty much like another. But, yes, the crack in the church (“wasn’t there yesterday”) is reminiscent of nuwho aeries 5; and the Doctor reaching-in is very similar to Cold Blood.
Nuwho does like to borrow without continuity. The Host look very Robots of Death or is that, as you might expect from a slave society, a question of all Robots looking alike? The Harbinger was the working title of Silver Nemesis, as I keep reminding people.

Don’t think The Malus was anything to do with exploding Tardises. Though no one has told me why The Tardis exploded, just that was the reason the mook army stuck Chindoc in The Pandorica.

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@dentarthurdent

I was wrong; there are 2 Tennants in there…

The Scan… we have: Tennant 1, Whittaker, Hartnell, Grant, T Baker, Hurt, Capaldi, Ecclestone, Smith, Martin, Tennant 2, Pertwee, C Baker, Davison, McGann, Troughton, McCoy… are there more? Cut away… I doubt it.

My hypothesis is just a hypothesis… 2 Tennants is fine. No Evan McCabe but Brendan, as a product of The Matrix, regenerated as himself. He might have actually worn the fizzogs of the 1975 production  team and apparently they don’t count. A Roman business man became 12  & another Timelord became 6… but we don’t have an example of a Doctor becoming a villain.

So, a hypothetical Grantdoc would seem to be:

a copy of Simeon… the question is why?

another unknown regeneration: the Curse of Fatal Death Doc, or something weird that happened with 9 on the radio. That doesn’t wash.

To show future docs would remarkable/impossible. Equally, Jayston and Hughes (though like Brendan, Mr Popplewick was a product of The Matrix) would not appear to have happened yet er… relative to The Doctor’s timeline. But we DO have the bigeneration, so Gatwa has a both predecessor AND a parallel.

What has happened to 14??

nb The Scan has Rogue when Tennant sppears… has Rogue met 14?

I think the Chuldur were fine. Nothing like Zchib’s P’ting or weird frog critter or tooth face Tim Shaw. As King Julian might say in another franchise, the Chuldur are a bunch of pansies. Deadly pansies.

Both River Song’s Wedding and Husbands were pretty rompy. Tooth and Claw? Empty Child/Doctor Dances?? Some historicals seem to become rompy. Husbands and Mysterio may have been attempts to attract a streaming partner… some excuse there. Romps are fine. But other elements will also be required.

I have wondered about the Dream Crabs… 12 wakes in the same volcanic landscape as Deep Water… did all that happen in The Nethersphere?? Or they reused a nice set…

 

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@dentarthurdent

I initially thought this story the weakish link in the strong middle four of the series… in fact I dismissed it as ‘a romp’. I don’t go for Regency costume drama… colour blind casting is what is, but oh for the AU where Britain makes a strategic alliance with Toussaint L’ouveture.

All that aside Rogue is actually very entertaining. However, it is where the references from previous series really do land with an almighty thump.

Chuldur = slitheen/family of blood/eighteenth century clockwork robots.

Rogue = Jack (same psychic paper gag/similar blaster/eroticism) but also Saxon (let’s go see the stars buddy)

Then there are the internal clues: the dice (Toymaker/AU) Kylie (Astrid… another lost companion?) & The Scan.

Tennant is in The Scan… but only once… is he 10 or 14?? Michael Jayston didn’t get in, nor Geoffrey Hughes (are we not Doctors? We are Valeyards). Neither did any of the 1975 production team (from Brain of Morbius). Surely Richard E Grant can’t simply get in on account of The Curse of Fatal Death or an audio drama? Therefor he must be present as Doctor Simeon = TGE = a missing Doctor…

14 = The Valeyard, the negative Doctor corrupted by TGE invading his timestream?? A rather tenuous ‘linx’ some might say…

Or is RTD just messing with us? If Rogue had just been a straightforward story it might need another element to replace the continuity porn. Something else would occur to the writers. It might be a bit second tier… or it might be even more fun, even powerful.

Or is the problem that the Zchib era is verboten/reviled/incomprehensible/written in crayon? So it is the deep past that Russ finds himself forced to mine?

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@blenkinsopthebrave @janetteb

Reminded of Deep Breath, not least because the Tyrannosaur seemed oversized… though perhaps less so than the one in The Thames.

any idea who the actor playing the hologram Silurian was?

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Also. Mrs Flood’s front door. Very clearly Tardis diary blue.

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@dentarthurdent
there ARE titles of course… just after Lindy starts to irradiate her teeth to ‘incey wincey teeny blah’… with just a hint of man-eating gastropod/worm on the pan-out.

Characters who grow… dunno. Adam Michell, briefly a companion, but no cardboard cut out; Elton Pope; Lucy Saxon even; the parapsychic researchers in Hide; Perkins; some of the doomed people in Waters of Mars and Under the Lake. The writing has to be sympathetic, and the actors, good. Wasn’t Callie Cooke fantastic? Also there needs to be a real threat. Or the characters don’t grow.

The key here is the writing, in that all these airheads, while obviously very annoying, were NOT unsympathetic. We laughed with Lindy even as laughed at her. It’s only at the end that it becomes clear that they are (mostly) ageist, elitist and racist. RTD got some push back, both for talking down to gen z-ers and white liberal virtue signalling. Which is as much of a shut down as Lindy performs on The Doctor in the bubble.

Wonderful design. Lindy’s urban desert is shot to look so sterile and repellant.

Parallels? In Who… The Sun Makers. In Sci Fi generally, any of Azimov’s Bailey/Spacer stories. And the useless society was an oft utilised original series Star Trek trope, normally controlled by a daft computer doomed to smoky defeat by a ridiculous logical paradox. Also Douglas Adams’ Golgafrinchams.

I have wondered about Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead: two worlds with an abstract economy/ culture that gets eaten by critters. Same trope different writers maybe, but the dot was definitely reminiscent of the Library’s information drone.

Because what motive can be ascribed to dot? Just as he went after right wing isolationist politics in Space Babies, this title would seem to riff on dot com bubble; RTD is mocking the shallow ephemera of highly digitised societies. None of it is REAL. Hmmm. That Wild Wood does not sound like a great move. Also, though the more intelligent is not expected to tolerate the less, isn’t Skynet really just protecting itself, and Killing All Humans, to stave off bankruptcy? Efficiency (Oxygen, Boom, and The Sun Makers) would seem to be a more believable imperative than AI developing aesthetics. That just sounds like RTD being spiteful.

Is this what the critics didn’t like?

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@janetteb

Twin Dilemma??? Truly you must love the show.

How on earth did they put that out after Androzani? At least whoever got the Starship Trooper stuck in the slug trail had a good laugh. Can’t say I’ll be watching it tonight though.

I still think Time Flight is worse, though. And Underworld is at least as bad, but somehow escapes opprobrium.

Don’t want to go into details of the Teaser here, or jump to the Spoilers page because I’m not sure what stuff meant. Safe to say Moff is wheeling out his strongest themes.

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@robink2567 @dentarthurdent

ok… finished it… there is a contrast in this Who reboot… RTD2 if you like… and previous nuwho, certainly the quite four square exposition of series 1-4.

How much of the information is there to throw us off I’m not sure but, until the strange and apparently unsatisfactory resurrection of Sutekh, each story echoed Russ and Moff’s greatest hits. Splice might even be a nod to Zchib’s definitive if risible work.

73 yards, with Boom and Dot & Bubble are the strongest episodes. It doesn’t need saying that 73 yard is intensely mysterious. What the hell has happened to The Doctor? Who is the witch woman and what does she say. What exactly was released from the fairy circle?

Kate’s perception filter info dump may be key because it links this story firmly to Utopia, Drums, &  Last of the Time Lords. The Doctor unwittingly resurrects Yana/Jack, the Tardis is lost, Saxon/Rog obtains an arsenal and is then defeated by Martha/Ruby.

Lots of nice touches. The pub is hilarious. Clara’s side eye from the taxi is chilling. The witch in Old Ruby’s bedroom is David Bowman at the end of 2001 space odyssey. Not sure why Ruby should choose to eschew boats and planes in that the witch is ignored unless Ruby introduces her. Over thought, or did some element not survive the final edit?

The question is… what is the design behind this design? And wherefor Sutekh, who was NEVER the messiah or a god, but a very very crazy alien. Stuck in a time corridor. Not forever. Just til he died.

You would think reality is being replayed and distorted… but why do that? To extract information from the Doctor Confession Dial stylee? A bit like old Ruby living out her life to warn young ruby, but without the wall of impossibly hard stuff, impossibly worn away by much softer stuff.

You see, I’m not sure these are tropes exactly. RTD2 is being seeded with its own past.

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