Death in Heaven

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  • #35185
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @arbutus

     I had the impression that Clara was about to tell that Doctor that she couldn’t travel anymore because she had adopted the boy

    That thought crossed my mind, also.  After all, the chances of her being able to locate the boy’s parents, even if they were still living, would be fairly slim.  But I have a feeling that there is more to it, and that what she was trying to tell Danny when he was killed, and what she was trying to tell the Doctor, may still remain to be disclosed.

    #35186
    Whisht @whisht

    There was a conversation (by others) before this episode about the Tarot.

    Seems clear that the Doctor is the Fool (or “idiot” in a box).
    Which was always the likeliest option I think!

    😉

    #35187
    Rob @rob

    @lisa Osgood didn’t have a twin she had a duplicate Zygon thus Bonkers Theory 15b part 6 sub section iii is that the Zygon got Missy’d

    Bonkers Theory 15b part 6 sub section xxiv is Osgood’s nice words got her zapped to the nethersphere for Missy to use in the Christmas special or subsequent plot

    #35188
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @scaryb  Re the temporal loop.  The time factor is not, in itself, necessarily a problem since, as you say, Missy clearly has a Tardis or some other method of getting around in time.  It was the paradoxical nature of the loop which bothered me.  Missy could not have escaped from the time locked time war without events requiring the intervention of Clara, but Clara could not have been present to intervene and influence the decision of the three Doctors if Missy had not already escaped and ensured that Clara met the Doctor and so would be present at the events of the Day of the Doctor which enabled Missy to escape  … and so ad infinitum.  It is the same problem which made it impossible for the Doctor to intervene at Clara’s request and ‘undo’ Danny’s death, as he explained to her in Dark Water.

    #35189
    Rob @rob

    @mudlark

    Surely the return of Gallifry when the Master saves the Doctor happens after the Timewar thus the Master was in effect never in the Gallfry pocket a soup cup and using yet another of @Purofilion s hands therefore both inside and outside of the pocket cup a soup so we have multiple Masters or Schrondigers Master/Missy

    Perhaps its a cup a coffee universe 😉

    #35190
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @phileasf   Does Kate really need an explanation for how you could fit 91 Cybermen inside St Paul’s?   I think that the question was “How do you hide 91 Cybermen inside St. Paul’s?”   I noticed that too about the news report. But clearly, whatever has been rebooted, UNIT at least is still aware of the Cybermen. So maybe the media asked a UNIT spokesperson?

    another reliable Cyberised dead person     Hee hee. I love a show about which this is something we might say.

    @mudlark   I wonder if Missy somehow avoided ending up in the Time-Locked Gallifrey? Possibly dying and regenerating in the process? Because if she didn’t know where Gallifrey had gone, and believed herself and the Doctor to be the only Time Lords in existence (in our universe, anyway), it might matter to her a great deal to somehow get the Doctor on her “side”.

    It’s a good point about the Matrix data slice/Nethersphere controlling the existence of the mausoleum. Because I did wonder at the time how UNIT was able to retrieve the TARDIS.

    @pedant    Love didn’t conquer all, Danny’s sense of duty did    Good point! I hadn’t thought of it quite that way, but yes.

    #35191
    ChrisSK @chrissk

    A running theme in this series has been how ineffectual the Doctor has been in his post-regenerative muddled state – maybe even more than usual since the timelords reset the regen count? As per other episodes in the series, even here in the finale, he didn’t “save the world” but that honor was left to CyberDanny. Probably SM is very much aware of how powerful the Doc was becoming in the RTD era.. and is toning down the character. Peter Capaldi did a great job of nailing this out of sorts, less-confident doctor through the series. It was quite interesting watching a Doctor looking so helpless and out of ideas against the Missy/Cybermen threat.

    Perhaps the only disappointment was how little threat there really was in the end! Missy building an army – to give to the Doctor? OK there is the irony card. But until that reveal there was no previous clues or build up to that point. It felt very “tacked on” the end. Overall i like the more adult / moral themes of this series.. thats a good direction and SM is a strong enough writer to pull it off.

    The closing scenes of the Doctor visiting the co-ordinates Missy shared was very poignant, and shows the despair – surely this Doctor now clearly remembers his past… and what he’s gone through to save his planet in recent storylines. It also showed that even in defeat Missy had won this battle 😉

     

    #35192
    lisa @lisa

    Had to sneak a way to peak here – lol But so worth it ! All of you have had dazzling ideas

    Kudos to @mudlark on Clara ‘Impossible’ Girl – Missy WitS paradox !! I read those paragraphs
    a LOT! — and to @rob I totally agree on Osgood?Zygon and its a great notion yet I am stuck
    still with again why that same conversation regarding her sister? I get the obvious about mean
    natured bullying but I think that sister thing is suspiciously odd -ish. Would like to see
    a lot of the characters from this season show up for Xmas ! Might just take a peak later on
    to see if they have put up any info about the Xmas cast to consider new ‘bonkerizing’

    #35193
    AnthonyAppleyard @anthonyappleyard

    At the end Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart, reincarnated as a Cyberman but still apparently with his human mind and feelings, flies up into the sky. I wonder if he will be seen again in a future series.

     

    #35194
    lisa @lisa

    als- It is interesting to me SM’s 2.0 takes on all the new forms of the old villains

    #35195
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @Arbutus- I’ve been thinking about the Orsan- Danny thing in the light of this, and I think the two options are: she’s pregnant, and the doctor somehow missed the resemblance between the two men. Or She adopts this boy, giving him Danny’s name because he bought him back to life, and for some timey whimey reason, she thought Orson looked like his ‘grandfather’, and the doctor was confused because he really didn’t.

    #35196
    AnthonyAppleyard @anthonyappleyard

    If I had been designing flying Cybermen, I would have likely given them backpack jetpacks rather than built into their lower legs.

     

    #35197
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @chrissk

    Missy building an army – to give to the Doctor? OK there is the irony card. But until that reveal there was no previous clues or build up to that point.

    ::Ahem:: May I present to you my post #34072 from the discussion on Flatline?

    In which I remark:

    Anyway, what could be more scary than an insane Master trying to torture the Doctor?
    An insane Master trying to be helpful, in the Master’s own, inimitable way. ‘Cause they love each other really. 😯

    The fact that the clues were from Missy’s previous appearance as the Simm Master doesn’t invalidate the fact that there were clues…

    #35198
    lisa @lisa

    sorry- had to leave mid thought – but quickly I have been thinking a lot about all the new versions
    of old villains and more on that later- but also a Xmas special conclusion to a season all about
    myths and beliefs and we all know what beliefs Xmas is about – and we also have the Afghan boy
    resurrected now – so this makes me wonder if the special will use this theme – that would be
    provocative

    #35199
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @bluesqueakpip @chrissk

    But until that reveal there was no previous clues or build up to that point.

    ::Ahem:: May I present to you my post #34072 from the discussion on Flatline?

    In which I remark:

    Anyway, what could be more scary than an insane Master trying to torture the Doctor?
    An insane Master trying to be helpful, in the Master’s own, inimitable way. ‘Cause they love each other really. :shock:

    I’ve also commented on previous threads (sorry can’t track it down at the moment) that I had a theory that Missy was collecting dead people to make a present (an army of soldiers) for her “boyfriend” 😀

    #35200
    macphisto96 @macphisto96

    @voidstuff They could conceivably use the Zygons as an out to bring back Osgood.  We don’t know how the Zygon issue solved itself or what deals were made in their treaty when both sides didn’t know who they were.  So it’s possible that Kate and Osgood were Zygons.  Good catch.

    #35202
    macphisto96 @macphisto96

    @chrissk I’m never really surprised when the Master does something that seems completely counter intuitive.  The twist fit the character, especially as depicted.  In our first encounter with her, she calls the Doctor her boyfriend.  It’s lonely being the Master and she wants someone like her.

    All series, the Doctor has gotten to avoid confronting what he is exactly.  He recovered his hero persona a bit in Flatline, but he’s been a bit off since he regenerated.  I think a lot of this has to do with the trauma he has experienced over time, trauma enhanced by having Clara as a companion.  From the dialogue throughout the series, this regeneration has caused him to look at himself.

    I’m thinking at this point that the purpose of his face, eyebrows and all, is to force this reflection.  #11 saw a lot of death, sadness, and sacrifice – I could see him internally desiring to take a long, hard look at himself and how he fits in with the universe.  He regenerated into an older man because that’s how he felt – no longer the young adventurer that could swashbuckle his way through his journeys.  Trenzalore had taken a toll.  The Time War had taken a toll.  Amy departing had taken a toll.  He could no longer be that, not without looking at himself first at least.

    I agree that Moffat has been scaling back the Doctor.  #10 got too big and too arrogant, especially in Waters of Mars.  Even RTD saw that, so Moffat ended up having #11 begin to delete himself in the databanks and try to be a bit more inconspicuous.

    #35203
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @macphisto96   I’ve seen several people here and elsewhere speak of the missing joy.  I understand that, but that is purposeful.   This is interesting, because I myself have actually felt huge joy in this series. I have laughed out loud, I have smiled, I have sat wide-eyed, and after so many episodes have gone “YES.” Yes, the show has been thoughtful at times, even sombre, but never, to me, joyless.

    Good point also in regard to Missy’s choice of Clara. She says it when she says “the control freak and the man who should never be controlled”. She obviously encountered Clara somewhere and saw the person she needed, with the character to travel with the Doctor, who could be loyal to him, but whose need for control might put them at odds. After manipulating Danny’s death, she knows that Clara will demand the Doctor’s help in “fixing it”, and that the Doctor will agree. Pretty complicated way of getting him there, but then, we know the Master, don’t we?  🙂

    And as to Clara not recognizing her (as has been mentioned), why would she? I don’t see why we would expect Clara to recognize a face she had seen very briefly, a long time and many adventures ago, and not really thought much about since. I don’t suppose I would, either.

    @pedant (and others)   I am aware of the view that drama requires the sacrifice of a loved character in order to bring home the threat. I disagree with it. I don’t mind sacrifice for a reason (as in Danny’s case). But killing off a character in a way that doesn’t move the plot, only to establish that, yes, the villain really is dangerous, just annoys me. Of course, this happens in real life all the time, but this is fiction. That’s why I’m really, really hoping that it hasn’t actually been done this time. But I get that that’s a personal view of mine, and others may not share it!

    @robertdaller    Santa Clause didn’t sound too happy about them leaving with a lie     He found out who was naughty, I guess!   🙂

    @the9thdoctor   When he finnaly realises that he is an idiot with his blue box, I think he meant that he is “only” The Doctor.   In other words, no more hero or lonely god, just the Doctor as we knew him first. I have been getting this sense throughout the series, one of the things that has made me so happy with it!

    @apopheniac   I think Oswald would be a great companion. Yes, she is very bright and “sciencey”, but also timid and insecure, probably idealistic as well. She would have lots to learn from experiences with the Doctor.

    @miapatrick   Agreed. It did seem a bit odd that the Doctor said he didn’t see a resemblance, but it would be equally odd for Clara to be so sure there was one when there wasn’t! I’m rather liking the idea of Orson being descended from the boy Danny died for, but I don’t expect it is true.  🙂

    #35205
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @lisa

    we all know what beliefs Xmas is about

    Moffat knows what Christmas is about – he also knows what Easter is about, and he knows the difference between them.

    For example, he had Series 6 plot of the Doctor being ‘killed’ and coming back from the dead set around Easter 2011. He had the just finished Series 8 theme of soldiers doing their duty unto and past death end on the eve of the UK’s Remembrance Sunday.

    If he has people coming back from the dead at Christmas, it’ll be to do with St. Nick. Or rather, Santa Claus. Santa Claus is based on St. Nicholas of Myra, and one of the legends about him is that he managed to bring back from the dead three small boys who’d not only been killed by an 4th Century version of Sweeney Todd, but had been jointed and were in the process of being pickled.

    And they complain about Doctor Who being too scary for kids. 🙂

    #35206
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @arbutus

    as to Clara not recognizing her

    It’s another shout out to a well known attribute of the Delgado and Ainley Masters (and in a way, the Jacobi Master). They were experts at disguising themselves unrecognisably.

    #35207
    Arbutus @arbutus

    I just wanted to articulate a little more about my problem with the death of Osgood, and the death of Danny, and the issue of the killing off of characters generally.

    Danny died for a purpose. He could have saved himself, the Doctor gave him the power to do that. He could have come back to Clara and lived his life with her. But he had already come to understand that he could never be at peace after killing the boy. In our first view of him, he was overcome by the memory of what he had done, and when we learned last week what that something was, it made tragic sense. So that made the choice simple. Instead of saving himself, he saved the boy. He righted the wrong that he had done. This makes sense of his trajectory within the story. Clara (and we, too) can give him up knowing why she is doing so; and he even leaves her with a new responsibility in his name: that of the boy. It makes narrative sense.

    Osgood’s death is entirely different. She dies because she happens to be there where Missy has been left, and because the Doctor left her there after suggesting that she might travel with him. She dies to show us that Missy is crazy and dangerous. But we knew this already, and we are shown it even more effectively later on. Nor does her death have any lasting impact on the story or the Doctor. He likely regrets her death, but it doesn’t seem to change him in any real way, or alter the outcome of the story. It doesn’t fit with her character in any particular way. She is simply a random victim, but unlike the “Man Scout”, she is a person whom we have come to love.

    This kind of death, for the reason of making the threat seem more real, just bugs me. J.K. Rowling had a lot to say about this, as I recall, and it annoyed me then, too. Osgood’s death actually took me out of the story for about ten minutes, because I was so angry at the pointlessness of it that the story kind of moved on without me! And if Osgood really is dead, if we are stuck with this bit of narrative, then for me it is the first really serious misstep of the series, especially as we really haven’t been given any reason to expect this kind of writing from Moffat before now (that I can remember, anyway).

    Again, my philosophy, my problem, I know. And I suppose that it says something about me that my big complaint this series has been something being too realistic, rather than not realistic enough (the moon is an egg, etc.– no problem).   🙂

    #35208
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @bluesqueakpip     Good point about the Master and his disguises, I’d forgotten that. Also, nice call on St. Nicholas and the pickled boys.   🙂

    #35209
    macphisto96 @macphisto96

    @arbutus I thoroughly enjoyed Series 8, though didn’t have any of those moments myself, at least not like in the past.  I did get many laughs throughout the series.

    As for Clara not recognizing the women in the shop, she could have just been calling a computer shop and given a phone number to call.  Thinking about it, there may not have been any face to face contact.  Interesting thing is that Missy set up the whole Impossible Girl arc and was clearly familiar with it.  Any chance she was working with the Great Intelligence or, more likely, manipulating the GI?

    #35210
    lisa @lisa

    @bluesqueakpip – yes true and it was a festival for the Romans and a bunch of other stuff
    plus we saw Santa in the trailer and we just had this episode with the dead being resurrected and in particular Danny saving the planet with the Doctor — and I don’t think SM would want to make a dark Xmas for the kids
    either so I will back step from provocative 🙂

    #35211
    macphisto96 @macphisto96

    @bluesqueakpip Good catch on St. Nicholas.  I should have thought of that, especially since he is venerated by the Orthodox (I’m Orthodox) as a Wonderworker.  Moffat definitely has shown a tendency to highlight things such as St. Nicholas’ reputed accomplishments with great subtlety, yet he builds those things in so often.

    Of course we know that the Doctor has met “the fat fella” before.  He says as much in A Christmas Carol and shows off a picture of him with Father Christmas at a hunting lodge with Marilyn Monroe and Frank Sinatra in the 1950s.  Of course, he could have been making it all up.  For all we know, the picture could have been psychic paper.

    Certainly looking forward to Nick Frost in the role.  His name indicates that he has long been meant to star in a Christmas special.

    #35212

    @arbutus

    Thing is, this is a fundamental point about storytelling. Success must not only have a toll, but have a meaningful toll.

    Many moons ago in the days before the Interwebz (in fact, on CompuServe), I had a rather furious argument with a second rate American SF writer (can’t recall which) about the destruction of the USS Grissom in Star Trek: The Search for Spock. Now that was an act of mass murder that was done for purely plot reasons. It told us nothing about the Klingons that we didn’t already know. But the Grissom had served this purpose and it was actually  full-on bona fide lazy writing that used up 400 red shirts, every one of whom was deemed lesser than Kirk’s son. My correspondent might have been second rate, but I had Joan D Vinge on my side.

    I’m not a fan of gratuitous slaughter, outside The Terminator franchise, but evil and/or insane characters have to be show to be evil and/or insane.

    But the other reason is that I am vehemently opposed to the fetishisation of evil.

    And here I am looking most strongly at the brainless shippers who think Darling Spikey-wikey was just wubbley. No, Spike was evil because it was in his very nature – no matter how he resisted, his understanding of love would be an evil, twisted and soulless understanding and would always end as it did on the on the bathroom floor of the Summers house. And it was only when he got his soul that he was even capable of redemption (although that didn’t mean he was an especially nice person, but that’s fine).

    So you have a wonderful, charismatic actor like Michelle Gomez (or James Marsters) and you just know the moist 15-year-olds (of all ages and gender identities) will be squeeing over her and say how wonderful she is and how she’s misunderstood and just needs to be loved.

    No.

    She is insanely evil and this absolutely needs to be shown in a meaningful way that will leave the viewer in no doubt.

    #35213
    Oblique @oblique

    For those of you with Tissue Compression Eliminators, who would dearly like who would like to point them my way… read on, and be pleasantly surprised.

    The final story of the season, and one that reunites the characters of U.N.I.T from Day of the Doctor which neatly tops and tails what is – series 8. A season as much about Clara as it is the Doctor; brave writing when the newly Reincarnated One is established largely via his relationship with those closest to him and not an onslaught of villains and monsters.

    A story in the Gothic vernacular, very much in the current Zeitgeist of storytelling, with its referencing of Mary Shelly’s Frankenstein: Danny as the monster, and with the stories supernatural clouds, cemeteries, the dead rising from their graves, and the disintegration of Missy’s victims into dust, we have the evocation of vampires. Did I also detect a nod to steam-punk when the dome of St. Paul’s Cathedral opened?

    The story to end all stories, as seeded continuity points from Clara’s time in the TARDIS come to fruition in this, her swansong. Everything must pay off. And though I’m no big fan of Miss Oswald, I felt quite moved by her situation and her bravery, and finally at last her character’s vulnerability comes through making her, in my experience, so much more rounded.

    A slipping in under the radar – return of an old villain: mmm always a pleasure in Doctor Who. And wasn’t Michelle Gomez wonderful as Missy. I loved the Mary Poppins look she had going on and my anticipation of an umbrella moment paid off with her arrival at the cemetery. I felt Master’s insanity in his previous incarnation left the performance with nowhere to go, and suffered from being unconvincing. With Missy, there’s a greater degree of control. Her behaviour is calculated and her play-acting is sophisticated.

    So my question is: If a Time Lord is born male then he regenerates, changing his sex, does the Time Lord become a Time Lady, or does he remain a Time Lord even though he is, temporarily female?

    My, my, all this talk of change…

    Oblique x

    #35214
    SandShoes @sandshoes

    Overall enjoyed the episode and indeed reading everyone’s thoughts.

    Only seen the episode once so apologies in advance if I’m completely off the mark.

    The first thing I’d like to question is ive seen a few people mention the colour of the beam shot at missy was different to when Osgood and others were ‘killed’ earlier in the episode so therefore could be some kind of teleport. Wouldn’t the beam have been a different colour due to it coming from the CyberBrig as opposed to Missys Zapper?

    Secondly, a running theme of the series / episode is lieing so on that basis, early on in the episode the Doctor whispered something to Osgood just before he was put to sleep. How do we know Osgood was telling the truth when saying ‘Guard the Graves’? Linking in with this point just before Missy killed Osgood was she not tampering with the zapper device?

    Finally bit of a bonkers theory, not watched any of the old who so unsure as to whether this is possible or not? Could Osgoods sister be Missy? Its mentioned earlier The Doctor could turn the safeguards off on the Tardis and lock on to someone he knew on Galifrey to potentially find it. Could it work the opposite way? Missy locking on to her sister from Galifrey to escape? Osgood may have had a pocket watch? When 10 & 11 altered with the memories in DotD could that have caused her to remember? Osgood identified Missy as the Master straight away and didn’t seem overly concerned by the whole countdown. The way Missy teases Osgood in that scene couldbe seen as siblingy. Its bonkers and there is a couple of things that throw the whole thing into doubt but this is Doctor who ….

    #35215

    @sandshoes

    I think the Missy killing was intentionally ambiguous. A beam from the direction of The Brig certainly hit here, but that doesn’t mean she didn’t teleport in the nick of time. And let’s face it, The Master has form for not actually dying.

    I think your Osgood point is a bit of a stretch. I reckon the Zygon!Osgood escape route is more likely (and I think the idea that an old enemy has become a trusted…partner? ally? … would be interesting ground to explore (with the Silurians it was at a more individual level).

    And may I compliment you on an outstanding debut bonkers theory. If Moff uses it, send him an invoice.

    #35216
    macphisto96 @macphisto96

    @IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan Absolutely.  Great point on Missy/Master.  I tire of so many stories in different genres painting the villains as misunderstood.  It was an issue I had with Raimi’s Spiderman films.  Almost always, the villain was just misunderstood or a victim.  There is a bit of room for that on occasion, but it become a theme.  It’s very post-modern in a way, an attempt to make everything subjective – except everything is not always subjective.  Some people are just evil.  Hitler was not misunderstood or a victim, he was a genocidal madman.  The Doctor may just be a madman with a box, but he’s a madman with a box that is looking for adventure and trying to help where he can.  The Master is a narcissistic madman that cares for no one but him/herself and his/her own feelings and desires.

    As for Star Trek III – the Grissom was not meant to be destroyed by Commander Kruge.  He wanted the engines disabled and was angling to take hostages – very unKlingon.  The gunner misfired and was vaporized for doing it.  I think that whole event was scripted to show how brutal Kruge was – and that he was without the same honor that other Klingons had.

    #35217

    @macphisto96

    nah, don’t care how it was dressed up, it was a lazy way of getting an inconvenient prop out of the way so that Kirk could emote about his son (but drifting a tad too far OT for here methinks).

    #35218
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Finally got to see it (have not read any comments yet, so apologies if others have covered what I am about to say). Not quite sure precisely what my response is yet, Except to say this:

    It was an emotionally troubling viewing experience for me–but I think it was designed that way. Following on from that point, we were led to believe this was a two-part story, but I think this is actually the second part of a three-part story, and that the way the final credits were interrupted with the trailer for the Christmas episode demonstrated that the story will be resolved then.

    Now, if an episode including Santa Claus is any clue, then I assume that some of the things that happened in this episode can be changed if we wish hard enough. If so, at the top of my list would be the recovery of Osgood, who would, on the basis of what we saw of her here, make a fabulous companion. And her death was, quite simply, too cruel to let stand.

    #35219
    janetteB @janetteb

    Have just rewatched and somehow had even more of a problem with the tear ducts this time. I am still reading through all the comments above but several things struck me. Firstly about Danny. IT does appear he has no family as Seb is unable to contact his next of kin.

    How does Orson end up with the toy soldier? I doubt that, even if she is pregnant, Clara would be a legatee. I am really hoping that, though it would seem the most obvious solution to the riddle and this episode certainly favoured the more straightforward solutions, Clara isn’t pregnant and Orson is an “alternative” Danny whom she ends up with, a better Danny not damaged by war and childhood abandonment. Orson at the time seemed to be a Danny without the baggage. Clara repeats the “I will never say these words again” in this episode and  I feel that those words have to be proven wrong in order for her to find some “redemption” for her betrayal of Danny.

    Another mention of the Doctor’s family firmly establishing that he had children and grandchildren on Gallifrey. His despair at the end was truely heartbreaking. What does everyone want most for Christmas? Home and family. No matter where you are or how wonderful the adventures you have having, when it comes to Christmas there is a yearning, even just for a day, for home and family.

    Now back to reading comments. 🙂

    Cheers

    Janette

     

    #35220
    Anonymous @

    Just got home and watching Dr Who a day late. For some reason, at 14 mins, in, Clara appears to be the Doctor! What is going on!

    #35221
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @sandshoes  I have had a fast forward through the episode to look at the colours of the different weapon blasts. Missy’s is definitely a reddish yellow blast, with a pile of ash left behind (and glasses, oddly). But when Cyber Danny blows up the Cybermen to save Clara, there is a very brief blue flash, followed by a blast of yellow and lots of flames. When Cyber Brig shoots Missy, it looks completely different, a straight blast of blue light followed by a lot of blue sparks. So, not sure what the significance of that is, but I’m sure it’s no accident. (And we are probably supposed to have noticed it!)

    @janetteb   I’m definitely interested in your thinking regarding the toy soldier! I think I will be watching the whole series again between now and Christmas, looking for clues, among other things. Lots to rethink!

    #35222
    janetteB @janetteb

    So now I have read through all the posts some comments,

    I have to disagree with @phMO and others who have remarked about a “lack of fun” this series. I have found it to have many LOL moments. The style of humour is different to that of the M.S. era. It is juxtaposed against the more sombre overall tone of the series but those moments are there and the more acute for the contrast.

    @belshazzar re post 35107 Danny does deserve better which is partly why I hope that S.A returns as Orson to take Danny’s promised place in Clara’s life and maybe becoming part of “team tardis” if J.C. stays on. And also welcome to the forum,

    @macphisto96 post 35138 was excellent. (I don’t recall just what you said now but I was taking notes so it must have been good.:-)

    @mudlark, All of your posts are commendable as usual.

    @arbutus Of course we believe in Santa!! Actually as many of the shows target audience still do or at least engage in suspended disbelief, Moffat is going to have to tread carefully but then, he is good at that.

    @voidstuff. WE can only wish but I think the zygons are done with and Osgood either died or was transported. (I suspect that at the time of the script she died but in future that might change.)

    @arbutus I do think it is important to occasionally kill of characters that the audience is invested in but your excellent post has swung my view of the killing of Osgood. I had the same issue with the killing of Danny last week but it was resolved this week when he died twice more and those deaths have meaning. I suspect that like Strax, Osgood’s death might well be “re though out” given the fan reaction.

    And some quoted comments which I particularly agreed with which I took down while reading and making notes..

    @juniperfish

    And I do miss Smith’s easy comedic turn and his slapstick physical comedy – it was one of the lovely aspects of his Doctor. But Capaldi’s sombre Doctor, with his gruffness and his soft centre is equally beguiling, just in a different way.

     

    @nerys

    I suppose I am also tiring of everything being about the catastrophic end of Earth and/or humankind. I understand the writers’ logic, that we viewers will care more about what happens here than somewhere out there … but it was the somewhere out there that, at least for me, gave the series its magic.

    @scaryb

    I think Orson will come into it somewhere; he may not be a descendant though, maybe a clone or an alternate timeline. Or… Danny’s dead so they can’t resurrect him to his own time but maybe they (Santa) could park him upstream somewhere (as in Hide) so that he is Orson.

     

    So should we all petition Moffat to bring back Osgood because we know that story arcs can be re written.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #35223
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @janetteb    I suspect that if Osgood is coming back, it is already in the works and was intended that way from the start. Because surely the response to that death is about what he would have expected- some people gutted, some on board because of the threat it creates, some both. I would guess that if she’s dead, she’s dead; and if she isn’t, then Moffat already knows that. But who really understands The Brain of Moffat?… Oh, wait.  🙂

    Good point about Santa and the target audience. But I’m pretty sure that the Santa knocking at the TARDIS door is not the REAL Santa!  🙂

    Or… bonkers theory for December: Santa takes the Doctor on a madcap trip to regain his childlike sense of wonder and belief in the magic of Christmas. Possibly to the North Pole. Lots of planets have a north pole!

    #35224
    Anonymous @

    Oh my Lawd…. Daunted   (puro)

    #35225
    AnthonyAppleyard @anthonyappleyard

    @arbutus: Perhaps the Cyberman gun has various settings for range and what it is shooting at, and that makes the ray vary.

     

    #35226
    Anonymous @

    When Missy listed the cities the Cybermen were attacking did everyone hear Brisbane or Lisbon?

    #35227
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @anthonyappleyard    Well, it had occurred to me that shooting at Cybermen might need a different type of firepower than shooting at a person, so you could be right there!

    @Lscot6    I heard Brisbane… Did you notice anything around your place, @purofilion?  🙂

    #35228
    Anonymous @

    Usually when mentioning Australia they choose Sydney- wonder why Brisbane this time?

    #35229
    Whovianami @whovianami

    @spider “you can’t do heat scans under the earth”

    I’m not all that scientific, so I may be flawed in my reasoning but my thinking is this: Once the corpses have been cyber-pollenated, the organic material would regain some semblance of heat, thus making it possible to detect via infrared (or something like that)

    On a different note, a friend and I were theorizing about how the Doctor had tried to disprove the existence of Robin Hood, and how he should also eventually disprove the existence of Santa Claus. Lo and behold, who should appear in the closing credits?

    So it seems like the Doctor lied to Clara about finding Gallifrey, but did he really? Missy gave the coordinates to the Doctor, saying it had returned to its original place. Doctor goes and looks and gets upset when he doesn’t see it. However, Missy had said “different dimension, yes. Lost, no”. So maybe the Doctor was looking at the right coordinates, but wrong dimension.

    #35230
    geoffers @geoffers

    @arbutusNor does her death have any lasting impact on the story or the Doctor. He likely regrets her death, but it doesn’t seem to change him in any real way, or alter the outcome of the story.

    i have to disagree. i think when he picks up her glasses, there’s a bit more to his attitude than “this is just another senseless killing.” true, he had little personal interaction with her (in this incarnation), so far, but she was known to him, from the (relatively) recent zygon adventure. but he did compliment her about her nice bow tie (whilst surely realizing its significance), and even hinted that she might be a candidate for some adventures in time and space. that doesn’t seem like something this incarnation would do randomly, without any sincerity behind it…

    consider also that he was intrigued by her intelligence, as a science person working for u.n.i.t. (a post he has held, himself), but not a soldier. if the situation hadn’t been so dire, he might certainly have wanted to have her hanging about, much like he wanted the engineer to stay on board in ‘mummy on the orient express.’ she was someone just clever enough, with whom he could interact for a little while…

    lastly, though, my personal opinion is that the doctor’s decision to kill missy himself began with that scene in the airplane. it escalated quickly to a no-brainer, only upon his meeting cyber-danny, and missy’s casual attempt to kill clara. he was forced to accept some culpability for missy’s actions, just as clara pointed out. having let the master live on, after so many previous horrible encounters, he was brought to the ugly realization that he would have to punish him/her, himself, in order to keep clara’s hands clean of doing it.

    if missy hadn’t killed osgood and kate in such an off-hand, lunatic way, i think the doctor could still have bargained with clara that, somehow, some other punishment would be suitable. and in saying, “you win,” the doctor is acknowledging to missy that she has finally created the perfect trap for his conscience, one he can’t escape. she has forced him to act in a manner totally against his sense of right, in order to keep clara untainted by their shared history…

    🙂

    or so it seems to me! i might be overthinking it, though. i do that much too much. on a lighter note, though, did no one else think it cool when the doctor did his free fall, using the tardis key as a sort of homing magnet? i was reminded of ten’s heroic leap, in ‘forest of the dead,’ when he dove into the cal mainframe core-thingy, to upload river’s consciousness…

    😉

    #35231
    Anonymous @

    Enjoyed reading all the posts, I’m exhausted now. I should have took notes. Apologies if I missed tagging people and if this is confusing to read.

    @arbutus, @janetteb – Re Toy Soldier: The soldier man is only difficult to explain if Clara is not pregnant. But we know Danny has no next of kin, so Clara would probably be the one to get or go through his property. Clara knows she gets the soldier man from Orson, and if she is pregnant (from Danny) then she knows that too. In that case, Clara would definitely pass the soldier man on to her child, were it eventually ends up with Orson, whose story becomes true about having a time traveling ancestor 100 years earlier. That makes the most sense to me.

    @everyone – Re Clara not recognizing Missy as WitS: Clara only talked to Missy over the phone, so Clara never saw the WitS and Missy changed her voice/accent.

    @phileasf – Re Missy tipping UNIT off in DiH: Kate says that a woman with a Scottish accent tipped them off, so I think that woman was not Missy, but Vastra is Scottish too and makes more sense.

    Re finding the Afghani Boy’s parents and his age: Like @pedant said the Doctor has the Tardis, so returning the boy to about the right time should be easy. And we have seen that people can be mentally linked with the Tardis, so they only need to link the boy and tell him to think about his parents and they can find them.

    Re How Danny was able to return the boy to his body? My theory of DNA recoding into Computer Code could explain that. If it is reversible, then Computer Code can be changed into DNA, then all they need is something like 3D printing where they print out a body.

    @mudlark – Yes, I’m very glad you found a Moffat Loop. 😀

    I am going with @geoffers‘s brilliant Schrodinger explanation for the moment. But I think there is a multiple time line explanation too.

    The two time line solution I have right now requires 2 different WitS’s, which most people won’t like. But I like it, because I have a little bit of a problem with thinking that Missy would put Doctor and Clara together knowing that Clara helps the Doctor defeat many of the Master’s plans all this time?

    That’s not a real big problem for me, since that could be explained by Missy didn’t know that would happen before she did it. Like @arbutus said, the plan is very overly complicated but all the Master’s plans are. 😆

    But if there is also a paradox to solve on top of that, then:

    Here is my 2 time line Bonkers theory :

    1st time line (AG series before DotD happened – ended in TotD): 1 st WitS – still a mystery(This WitS will probably never be solved, but everyone’s bonkers WitS theory can still be true 😯 ).

    2nd time line (created after DotD, continued after TotD – present): Missy is WitS

     I’m not completely sold on this 2 time lines yet, so that will keep me busy until Xmas. 🙂

    #35232
    Anonymous @

    @arbutus I think they showed a picture of the Opera House? Or not? I’m still jaw dropping really from the …you ….know? Brisbine -I don’t know: it’s easy to ‘si(gh)’?

    #35233
    Anonymous @

    @arbutus oh gosh I get you. I thought you meant…. but you don’t. Not Lisbon but Brisbane

    #35234
    janetteB @janetteb

    @barnable. I am no doubt nit picking but it is unlikely that Clara would have inherited Danny’s estate, what there was of it. I assume that as a solider Danny would have been obliged to make out a will so unless he rewrote his will in the time that he knew Clara which I doubt as death would not have been on his mind then she would not inherit. As they were clearly not living together she would not end up “going through his stuff”.  I suspect however that Moffat may not be thinking at such a banal leval however but one other objection to Orson directly inheriting the Toy Soldier is that it was not particulary lucky for Danny. When he hands it to Clara I got the feeling he knew something and had an intention that she make use of it in a particular way. I would like the toy soldier to begin its journey with Orson, pass to the Doctor and from the Doctor to Danny rather than take the obvious route.

    Barnable again, Ooh. I like your theory about how the boy was returned to his body as it would also enable them to make a clone Danny, ie Orson.

    It was nice to hear Brisbane mentioned. Maybe next time it will be Adelaide. (Though of course they used an image of the Opera House. Oh well.. )

    A thought on Father Christmas. One of the themes this series has been lying. Father Christmas is perhaps the biggest lie that parents ever tell their children. Wonder if that will be a theme. Of course the other theme is parents and children, giving, etc. Still hoping that the Doctor will find Susan. (I don’t give up easily.)

    Cheers

    Janette

    #35235
    LordLord @lordlord

    @ Coly

    surely Danny/Orson are the reason Clara went back in the Doctors time line and therefore the reason the Doctor is who he is.

    What about when Rory died and got erased from existence? Wouldn’t that make Amy a totally different person? Or not go with the Doctor to run away from her marriage? Rory dying didn’t really do anything.

    In Doctor Who’s universe, that’s how time/space/etc. works.

    #35236
    Anonymous @

    @geoffers

    did no one else think it cool when the doctor did his free fall, using the tardis key as a sort of homing magnet?

     That scene with the Doctor is so cool I almost say SQUEE, about the same time Seb does and Missy shoots him. Permission to SQUEE is favorite line! 😆

     I wanted to add one more thing about Danny. It makes me realize how Moffat’s episodes are so much bigger on the inside.

     When CyberDanny says the Doctor is blood soaked, it surprised me again. But it is a very important part to completing Danny’s story, imo. It shows that he still had that anger toward officers at that point, and he couldn’t let go of that anger until he returned the Afghani Boy. The bigger on the inside is how Moffat was able to say so much, in just those very short scenes and a few lines.

     I’m happy to have a break until Christmas to find more things that could be packed away inside almost every line.

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