Before The Flood

Home Forums Episodes The Twelfth Doctor Before The Flood

This topic contains 295 replies, has 46 voices, and was last updated by  dailyboother 3 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #44562
    Anonymous @

    @lisa I like the way you’re thinking too!

    I think that  goes to the reason he has this face. To recall the moral dilemmas of his actions because it could involve him on a very personal levelwith his own family. I think we got a teasing of that in the
    current episode in that phone conversation with Clara. She is surely family to him. So I’m sure River has been meddling with time loops.

    That’s a wonderful connection you’ve made – regarding the Doctor’s choice of ‘face.’ Because really, if there’s one thing I’d like, it would be some of these ethical considerations and their answers reconciled -before Capaldi exists the scene.

    Also, the dratted thing under the blanket in Listen, will we ever know?

    I really hope so. Will we ever know about Orson and his particular connection? Danny is dead. Deader than dead. So how does a man like Orson exist? Doesn’t it plague Clara daily? How could it not?

    @ichabod

    I like the Doctor with his guitar, but as a rule I enjoy seeing new facets of an old, established character.  It’s life-like.

    That’s a good observation.

    As is this: “Clara-the-human Coal Hill School, gramma, pretty girl who could have any guy she wanted …is just going through the motions now”

    I believe she’s in a pretty bad place indeed. I’m no psychologist but a long time ago I studied music therapy and from this learned the behaviour and ‘signals’ which sets off alarm bells in therapists.

    They’re all ringing right now.

    @jphamlore I’m actually counting how many times you’ve mentioned Instellar now! I still haven’t watched it but a trip to JB Hi-Fi is in the offing and so I’m counting my dollars…. I hope I can watch it more than once 🙂

     

     

    #44563
    RorySmith @rorysmith

    @lisa Yes,I would rather see your theory be the case. The Master is truly a psychopath and I can see her/him sacrifice Clara quite easily.

    I think over the years the Master has not so much tried to impress his old friend but tried to lean him into his/her mindframe of being selfish. I look at the Master like an old friend I had as a kid that’s now strung out on meth and stays in jail. They always try to pull me down rather than letting me pull them up.

    Again, River does mention a connection to Clara in her last words in NOTD. I hope that has meaning. I just feel like Moffat is going for our hearts and throats on Clara’s fate. It smells dark. Maybe not. Maybe Moffat had beens on toast and thats the smell.

    #44564
    JimmytheTulip @jimmythetulip

    @purofilion

    The term “bootstrap” derives from a paradox being likened to someone trying to lift themselves off the ground by their bootstraps (or laces). I.e. It’s something that, in pure theory with no relation to natural laws is possible but due to natural laws should not be possible. It’s the suspension of the rules to enable the impossible.

    #44565
    Anonymous @

    @jimmythetulip

    thank you very much. You and @lisa have given me clear explanations.

    I appreciate it.

    @rorysmith

    No reason that you should know this, but due to some people having dyslexia and others getting confused by the names of episodes, some of us are asking people to type out the full name of an episode: for instance NOTD -is that The Night of the Doctor -which was a minisode, I think? But I think if River was in it, it was The Name of the Doctor -written as tNofD -but equally confusing?! If that’s OK, with you, at any rate. 🙂

    I don’t know what you mean by the “Germans” in your next-to-last post? Would you please elaborate?

    Kindest and welcome

    Purofilion

    #44566
    RorySmith @rorysmith

    <p style=”text-align: center;”>@purofilion</p>
    <p style=”text-align: center;”>Noted and acknowledged on acronyms. It can be a pain. I got used to it on other forums but this one has some lengthy posters and I enjoy the great pasion here for the show. The level of intelligence is higher here as well and that is a comfort.</p>
    <p style=”text-align: center;”>As for Germany; the very idea that Ludwig was not real is an insult to German history. I do think they get the joke as far as the show goes and no real harm was meant. Read the stoy written for the Trans Siberian Orchestra for their album on Beethoven. Off topic but a good fictional twist on history; something Doctor Who enjoys often as well.</p>

    Also further confusion with the Netherlands as his birth and Austria as his death; his histoical impact is claimed by most of Europe. We have the same issue with Davy Crocket where Iam from. Dr Who made me learn more history. Again.

    #44567
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    Wouldn’t audiences have been familiar with causal time loops at least as far back as Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure? 🙂

    http://qntm.org/excellent

     

    #44568
    RorySmith @rorysmith

    Those jail keys; so perfect. A Doctor cameo in the Bill and Ted sequel should be mandatory.

    #44570
    Missy @missy

    @winston

    Permission granted, I may join you. Paradoxes put my brain in a spin too.

    So, I wonder, Who did write Beethoven’s Fifth symphony?

    Got to watch again, didn’t get a chance last night.

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #44571
    Anonymous @

    @rorysmith

    yes, there shouldn’t be too much confusion about Beethoven’s whereabouts as he came to Vienna in 1792 as a 22 year old provincial from the Rhineland court town of Bonn. Vienna was a cultural mecca of the Holy Roman Empire. Despite talent and the occasional purchase of fine silk stockings, Beethoven never possessed the requisite social graces; he was believed to be uncouth, bold, loud  and increasingly eccentric. I surmise the connections between Beethoven and the Doctor to be similar: even in appearance we have A. Wheelock Thayer stating that Beethoven was “thin, light, dark haired, dark eyed with circles under his eyes, a broad nose with a bullet of a head.” !

    Marvellous stuff.  Those who have criticised the opening use of Beethoven’s 5th perhaps forget that Beethoven, next to Bach, was a most feared extemporiser and improviser of his own, and others’ motifs. That Murray Gold did the same with the Doctor Who theme in Before the Flood was an historical nod to Beethoven.

    #44572
    Missy @missy

    Would someone explain ARSE to me please.

    Ta muchly,

    Missy

    #44573
    Anonymous @

    @rorysmith

    It was his grandfather born in the Netherlands. This gent had one son who married and produced the second “Ludwig” who we generally refer to as (the) Beethoven

    #44574
    Anonymous @

    @missy A Raging Sense of Entitlement (ARSE)-where a person believes they are entitled to this opinion due to various issues such as a) being right because they are 🙂  b) they know better than Moffat or any show runner etc….

    #44575
    Missy @missy

    @sarah-jane109

    That’s a shame, but if you don’t, you don’t. However, quote:

    I feel saddened by the poor production values, poor acting acting performances, dire casting and embarrassing narcisstic rock guitar trivialisation of a great British institution . I went to the trouble of finding this forum and registering my details.

    Where on earth did you come up with – poor production values, poor acting, dire casting and embarrassing rock guitar trivialisation?
    Since 1963 – and I watched the first broadcast at the time – Doctor Who has progressed – grown up if you like. Nothing can stay the same forever, so we Whovians – true Whovians, must grow with it.

    There you are, I’ve expressed an opinion and I dare say others have too.

    Missy

    #44576
    Missy @missy

    @purofilion

    Sending people personal messages is not acceptable either when you wish to merely complain and find a ‘hater’ to match. It won’t be me, madam.

    Spotonski m’dear.

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #44577
    Missy @missy

    @purofilion

    Ta muchly puro. *thumbs up*

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #44585
    ichabod @ichabod

    @purofilion   Those who have criticised the opening use of Beethoven’s 5th perhaps forget that Beethoven, next to Bach, was a most feared extemporiser and improviser of his own, and others’ motifs. That Murray Gold did the same with the Doctor Who theme in Before the Flood was an historical nod to Beethoven.

    Ooh, lovely — and our Doctor is himself a wonderful hand at extemporizing.  Rigid systems being evaded or bent or just outsmarted by flexible intelligence is a recurring pattern in the show largely because having (more or less) sworn off weapons, his brain is what he has for both defense and offense, putting together whatever’s found at hand (although he may have planted that “whatever” himself earlier on, when feeling loopy).

    A Raging Sense of Entitlement (ARSE)-where a person believes they are entitled to this opinion due to various issues such as a) being right because they are 🙂 b) they know better than Moffat or any show runner etc….

    See every time some foolish troll rolls in here trying to set off a brou-ha-ha, as per just now: perfect examples, all of ’em, and none stay long because there’s no nourishment for them here, and they just aren’t interesting enough to compete with actual discussions already ongoing.

    #44588
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @arbutus

    Capaldi can play the guitar, so put one in his TARDIS and let him rock out a bit. Why not?

    It also fits thematically into the larger story, just as they only used Matt Smith’s ability to play high-level football where it was relevant within a story. The Doctor was effortlessly better than Craig at everything Craig did.

    Thematically: using Capaldi’s guitar skills recasts the Doctor as ‘rock star’. Not ‘comes down from the sky and tears down your world’, more ‘turns up, trashes a few hotel rooms, does the gig, buggers off’.

    But Clara isn’t a Doctor or Missy style Time Lord rock star. If you look at her career, it’s a succession of long term jobs where she stays as long as they need her.

    #44591
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @purofilion   As soon as the Doctor mentioned Beethoven I thought of you and grinned 🙂

    He did assure us that ‘None of this happened …’ but, unless I missed something, the analogy seemed incomplete.  The time traveller copies out the scores and publishes them, but does he ‘become’ Beethoven, the documented person who wrote letters, exasperated people and conducted his own works, or are the works published without establishing a verifiable existence for the composer?  And if he does ‘become’ Beethoven, how does he establish his back-story back to his birth and beyond?

    It might work better if the time traveller manages to find Beethoven, but discovers that he is a young, wholly unsuccessful musician and composer with no performed or published work to his name.  He gives Beethoven the manuscripts copied from the printed scores and thus launches him on a career which ensures that the music will not only exist in the future from which he came but will have an identifiable historical source

    #44592

    @jphamlore

    Even further than that. Everyone should buy this BBC DVD of a 1980 Play For Today – and DON’T google the title. Spoilers would ruin them. Thinking about it, I’m fairly sure Moffat did!

    #44593
    Anonymous @

    Rewatch, feelings softened as expected, though I had already said it was very good, I just highlighted the problems… I think my problem for this episode in particular was that it couldn’t live up to how good the first was, and my problem for this season as a whole seems to be that it sets my expectations higher than normal for Doctor Who- the tone, the production, the depth is so good, that it frustrates me when (to me) they veer off or lose focus.

    If the Doctor’s ghost was a hologram, how did it interact with matter (opening the Faraday cage)- possibly it didn’t, and rather the sonic sent a message for the cage to be opened at that time? But then, why did he program it to open the cage and let out the ghosts, it wasn’t required for his plan was it? I guess it made his ghost more believable and realistic, but it’s a bit of a risk…

    Also, I was wondering why was the plot element of returning in the TARDIS to half an hour earlier was necessary. The Doctor and Bennett ran back to the TARDIS and attempted to flee after seeing Prentis dead and then hearing the Fisher King roaring in the church, and seemed to view that as enough of a threat that he couldn’t be stopped. Moving back in time gave the Doctor time to enact his plan prior to confronting the Fisher, but the trip was accidental on his part, and narratively you could have easily had the Fisher King take more time after Prentis’ death so the Doctor had time. You would suspect a large part of the reason was for the causality conversations with Bennett, and to show Bennett seeing O’Donnell again.

    @mirime

    re. programming the hologram. The Doctor said it was the sonic sunglasses and that they connected to the bases wifi when the stasis pod thing was brought in.

    Right you are, thanks.

    @bluesqueakpip

    Why bring a massive amount of attention to the loop? Because people mostly didn’t get the fez, and they really struggled with the causal loop in The Big Bang. They can follow it, but many people don’t understand it. If the Causal Loop is about to become a major plot point, it needed a full-on backstory exposition speech.

    Yes, agreed.

    @arbutus

    It’s less clear to me why they also felt the need to have the Doctor recap the concept at the end of the episode. If we’re going to complain about unnecessary exposition, it would probably be the second one I would complain about.

    Actually, I can understand that- the introduction could easily feel completely random and unconnected to the rest of the story, they needed the recap at the end to say, this is the connection.

    I don’t agree with you on the issue of romance, partly because I just don’t see that we have been given this over and over, as you suggest. We’ve been introduced to lots of people working together in groups without any hint of romance. In this case, I thought that the bond between Cass and Lunn was especially clear, although nicely understated until the end. And clearly the reason for the double hit of romance was to direct us toward Clara’s situation.

    To be fair, I rather meant all the time in fiction as a whole, rather than DW specifically, and you could argue that if it doesn’t appear all the time in our show specifically, then it’s not a problem, but I might argue that it’s a cliche regardless. Okay, no, it wasn’t that bad, and both romances were understated and handled nicely, I agree. Until the sudden Disney bit.

    @purofilion @arbutus re: Capaldi playing guitar

    I don’t actually have a problem with him playing guitar at all, I quite like it, and I didn’t actually have a problem with the intro as a whole (though it seemed very out of the blue- I was more commenting on the similarity to Witch’s Familiar)- it was just this particular instance that was cringeworthy. One of the moments in classical moments that sees unfortunately overplayed and cliched use everywhere (see also: the 9th in ads and Everybody Loves Raymond)? Played with power chords? With that guitar tone? With that much whammy bar?? Ugh. Of course they would use the Fifth because they need something recognisable, but anyway.

    Beethoven, next to Bach, was a most feared extemporiser and improviser of his own, and others’ motifs. That Murray Gold did the same with the Doctor Who theme in Before the Flood was an historical nod to Beethoven.

    Now, let’s be fair, by that logic, anyone post-Beethoven who’s ever arranged someone else’s work, or quoted a theme, or paid musical homage, could be said to be giving a nod to Beethoven (or any of the many composers talented at improvising on a theme)… I think the rock theme more came down to “wouldn’t this be cool, guys!”, and having Capaldi’s guitar right before the theme provided a nice excuse.

    #44594
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    This series has so far struck me as one of the strongest of the AG run. Second in my book to s5 and if it keeps up like this then it’ll probably surpass it by the end. It’s very much been taking its cues from BG series in a way that the show has shied away from before. Apprentice/Familiar was very much an unofficial sequel to Genesis of the Daleks and a fine one it was too (have yet to catch up on those threads but will get to it soon), Lake was riffing on just about every base under siege story ever and Flood seemed to be throwing Fenric, Blink into an already rich mix. I think @phaseshift is right with his ‘hybrid’ theory. These, so far, haven’t been proper two-parters and a bit more like thematically linked two-handers with just the bare bones of the narrative carried over. But I think it works. It’s given these episodes room to breathe that the more frentic one-parters sometimes failed to.

    It’s also interesting that despite the comprehensive embracing of the BG show in these episodes, the troll-brigade on t’other place are still baying for cancellation. Moffatt seems to be giving them exactly what they’ve been asking for and they’re still not happy. I just don’t get it. (Nice work on the drive-by troll btw.)

    Having said that, I found this episode to be the least satisfying of the four so far. Like @blenkinsopthebrave I felt it was like Whithouse trying to ‘do a Moffatt’ and not really succeeding. It had the smarts but it didn’t have the light touch of characterisation that Moffatt brings to the party. It almost felt like an ‘interview piece’ in many ways, Whithouse pitching to be the next showrunner. But then I have to admit that I’m not as keen on Whithouse as some. I find his stories, while always containing some really great stuff, tend to be ultimately unsatisfying. And I really hate those feckin’ mole people. Prentis was a waste of Paul Kaye in my opinion who has a brilliantly sinister quality that just cries out to be used in Who. I could quite happily not see this race again.

    The Fisher King also was kind of wasted I thought. Not sure I loved the whole character design as much as some. Bit bobbly-headed for my liking. And it seemed to just be there to do a bit of ‘raspy raspy rasp Tiiimeee Loooord’ schtick and then get quickly dispatched. If it had been more of a presence beforehand then I might have been more bothered by it one way or the other. It reminded me really of the Shakri from Power of One — a great idea for a villain but just not used like at all.

    Lots of good things in the ep though. Liked the whole bootstrap paradox concept. Supporting cast was great and both Clara and the Doc had lots of really great stuff. The cards, Clara as pseudo-Doc (again). They really do have a chemistry together now in the way that she didn’t really have with the Smith Doc.

    Oh, and loved the ‘rocked out’ new version of the theme. I really do hope they keep it. It really does fit Capaldi’s Doc. It took us a while to get a handle on his Doc. Is he the stern father figure. The aloof professor? No, he’s the ageing rock star. And I think it works really well.

     

    #44595
    Mirime @mirime

    If the Doctor’s ghost was a hologram, how did it interact with matter (opening the Faraday cage)- possibly it didn’t, and rather the sonic sent a message for the cage to be opened at that time? But then, why did he program it to open the cage and let out the ghosts, it wasn’t required for his plan was it? I guess it made his ghost more believable and realistic, but it’s a bit of a risk…

    @Supernumerary – The Doctor programmed it to open the cage because he saw that it opened the cage.

    The outcome of opening the cage was that Clara and the other two went in the Faraday cage and were protected from O’Donnell’s ghost when it showed up.

    #44596
    janetteB @janetteb

    I have been slowly catching up and as usual the posts come in faster than I can read.

    I made a few notes as I read. So many excellent posts, really enjoyed reading the discussion as much as watching the actual episode. I would like to comment on more of the posts but would mostly be to say, “well said” or “hear hear” so to move on;

    Nice to hear from you @jimthefish. I was concerned that you had gone AWOL. You certainly have a lot of reading to catch upon but worth it if you can spare the time.

    @mudlark like you I was wondering why the monster of the week was called The Fisher King. He bore no resemblance to the mythical Fisher King to my knowledge. I was wondering if I had missed something.

    @juniperfish, going way back to the Gallifrey discussion, I just wanted to point out that not all Gallifreyans are Time Lords. I would be quite happy to learn more about the thus far mostly neglected citizens of Gallifrey. I really loved the workshop scene and the prequel about the guard in training.

    @pedant I really loved The Flipside of Dominic Hyde when I was a teenager. I have always loved a good time paradox.

    @Purofilion. I had a new theory the other day on re watching Listen for the 100th time, (well not quite but must be almost), It might be Missy under the blanket. It clearly isn’t Missy who appears behind them but I am not going to let that spoil a bonkers theory. Also I would recommend watching Interstellar. I found it interesting though it certainly would benefit from more than one viewing.

    I might leave comments about the episode until  I have watched it again, not that there will be anything new or original to say but have been up most of the night helping with Yr 12 stuff and right now I barely recall anything at all about it.

    Cheers

    Janette

     

     

    #44599
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    I know a lot of attention has gone on the breaking of the forth wall. This might be because so much of what I read comes from the 19th and 18th centuries, but the idea of the forth wall- the idea of the pretence that this is not a play, a book, a television program seems quite modern. (Well, inevitably for the last one…) Internal monologues on the stage have for centuries had an element of consciously addressing the audience. I’ve just finished reading Don Quixote which spends a lot of time talking about the composition of the novel. Victorian authors are often breaking off to have a chat with the reader.

    I like the moments when the Doctor talks to us- I liked it in Listen as well. Partly because Capaldi is so good at it. It also increases the sense of the Doctor as a kind of teacher, and I’ve always preferred to think of him as that kind of teacher. It also draws a comparison to Missy telling Clara a story. It also acknowledged that we all knew he wasn’t going to really die, and that the fun is in seeing what he’s going to do.

    #44600
    Anonymous @

    OK, I’ve gone to trouble of expressing my frustration and disappointment  – I’ll stay take myself off the forum now without annoying you all further.  Purofilion has confirmed my fears about this ‘forum’.

    <span class=”useratname”>@arbutus Thanks for engaging with my opinion.  Maybe some of you tolerate  critical thought after all.</span>

    @purofilion  I don’t think of myself as a troll and I think it’s unfair to assume so. I’m not a ‘hater’ and  I didn’t send you a message myself (I suppose the forum notified you of my post?).  If this forum is a ‘forum’ of opinion for all the Doctor Who world, I think it should allow for criticism – if given without personal, rude or offensive language.

     

    #44601
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    <span class=”useratname”>@supernumerary</span>: As for relationships, I think what this episode is doing is highlighting a big problem with Clara and the Doctor’s relationship.  O’Donnell and Bennett’s relationship was one that could have become permanent pretending to be a temporary one.  What if for example O’Donnell had been cleared and was promoted elsewhere?  Does Bennett just say, “Seeya”?  No matter what he would have been put on the spot to either try and transfer to be with her, in which case his feelings would have been obvious, or lose her.

    The Doctor and Clara on the other hand are a temporary relationship pretending to be permanent.  Neither, especially Clara, seems to be dealing with the fact that the Doctor and a companion’s relationship ends in a jarringly abrupt way that is becoming increasingly alien to this modern world with smartphones and Facebook.  One moment they are standing back-to-back fighting together to save their lives and the next they may be cut off from communication for decades or forever.  Whenever a companion becomes like Donna, thinking all she wants to do with the rest of her life is to adventure with the Doctor, tragedy must follow.

     

    #44605
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @sarah-jane109

    If you are genuinely not a troll, but simply someone who is very angry and pissed off at the direction of the current series, then I should probably explain that you have followed a textbook pattern for trolls.

    You’ve made a first post that’s almost entirely a list of contentious statements, designed to provoke an angry reply. Then you’ve insulted the forum as a whole. Your second post insists that you are not a troll, and that it’s all our fault for not tolerating your ‘critical thought’.

    So – if you do not think of yourself as a troll, then I should warn you that you are behaving exactly like one.

    In the meantime, our strapline is on the masthead. This particular forum specialises in bonkers theories about the programme, not strong verbal or written attacks on whichever poor sod happens to be in the Head Writer’s chair. If you should decide to watch an episode through to the end and then come on here with something slightly insane, you’ll find us very happy to engage.

    #44608
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @jphamlore

    I agree that we’re being led-by-the-nose in the direction of ‘tragedy’. I don’t recall seeing the Doctor quite this hysterical about companions-in-danger before. So I think that he knows Clara’s future. He thinks she dies young.

    To paraphrase what the Doctor said in this episode, he’s talking to Clara when he’s seen her dead on a slab. He’s seeing her as a ghost. That actually ties in with Hide, when Clara points out that everyone is a ghost to the Doctor, because he’s time-travelled past all their lifetimes.

    My bonkers theory is that he’s hoping that what he saw isn’t what he thinks he saw; that Clara only appeared to be dead. Or, that he’s trying to change time in such a way that it doesn’t change the course of events. Like, for example, his ‘ghost’ turning out to be a hologram-ghost. But he thinks he knows Clara dies – and he doesn’t know how or when.

    This series has so far deliberately called back to the Before Gap series, to the extent of reminding us that Sarah Jane was dumped in Aberdeen. Of the other companions who left during the Tom Baker era, Harry decided the Doctor didn’t need him and UNIT did, Leela stayed on Gallifrey and Romana stayed in E-space to make her own way in the universe.

    Are you noticing a pattern? The Tom Baker companions all survived the Doctor – apart from Sarah Jane, they left because they’d decided it was time to move on.

    Now, Clara’s been given two main characteristics. Firstly, she stays as long as people need her. Those inner-city kids at school need good teachers; she stays at Coal Hill even in the face of Danny’s death and a collection of sad memories (she’s rather obviously highly respected by UNIT – but UNIT only get priority when the world is in danger). She stayed with the Doctor as long as he needed her – right now, the situation is reversed. He no longer needs her; she needs him.

    Secondly, she’s becoming a human version of the Doctor.

    Put those two together, and it becomes very possible that Clara’s ‘exit’ is one where she will stay somewhere permanently because they need her to be the Doctor. She’s reported dead, because she never returns to 21st Century Earth.

    In my more bonkers moments, I keep thinking that Clara is reported dead – not because she is dead. But because she regenerates. But that’s another theory. 🙂

    #44609
    lisa @lisa

    @Bluequeakpip Yes! That’s where the regeneration energy that she recently absorbed
    may come into play. But it might possibly go wrong because of the Dalek influence?

    @GothamCell Interesting that a group of Ravens is known as a conspiracy. I love
    factoids like that.

    #44610
    lisa @lisa

    @bluesqueakpip and @gothamcelt Sorry! – I got @ compromised again 🙁
    and the previous posts were @ both of you

    #44611
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @bluesqueakpip   It also fits thematically into the larger story    Exactly. Both times they have used it, in my opinion, worked really well within the bigger picture, the second time particularly, as I thought that the whole “breaking the 4th wall” scene was really atmospheric and fun.

    And this:   Thematically: using Capaldi’s guitar skills recasts the Doctor as ‘rock star’. Not ‘comes down from the sky and tears down your world’, more ‘turns up, trashes a few hotel rooms, does the gig, buggers off’.  That is a really nicely drawn image, and bang on, in my view.

    Also, Clara. If you look at her career, it’s a succession of long term jobs where she stays as long as they need her.  Indeed. And she chose to stay with the Doctor for that same reason. However, now the question is, does the Doctor still need her? I think we are seeing a situation where she needs him more than he needs her, which, given that this is the Doctor, might not end well. He says he has a responsibility of care, but I’m not convinced that he really feels that as it relates to individuals. Not that I think he would ever actually abandon Clara, as he is well aware of all he owes her, but he might well abandon her emotionally. This might already be happening. I think that the part of the Doctor who put her to bed with jammie dodgers, and sat guard outside her house all night, is currently well submerged in the complexity of the Time Lord psyche.

    #44613
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    <span class=”useratname”>@bluesqueakpip</span>: I like your theories about Clara.  I try to temper mine to leave the door open for the show to bring her back for a guest appearance or two should Jenna Coleman’s schedule be favorable.  That is why I reject theories that leave Clara simply dead.

    And I do like how the Fourth Doctor’s companions were generally depicted leaving the show because they found good and noble things to do with their lives apart from the Doctor.  Or for that matter how Nyssa elected to stay behind on Terminus.

    Here’s my completely bonkers theory where Clara could wind up:  I think part of Missy’s Nethersphere and its inhabitants is still out there somewhere.  (As an aside, it is rather strange there is something we the audience know that the Doctor does not.  We, and Clara, have been shown something equivalent to souls being resurrected is possible because we have seen Danny Pink sacrifice his own return to return a kid he killed years ago to life.  I wonder if Clara has even mentioned all of this to the Doctor.)  But there is clearly some kind of incredibly difficult to cross barrier to go from there to the material universe.  I think Clara will eventually cross that barrier to help tend to children who are trapped there, possibly with Danny Pink at her side.

    Now for something really mind-bending:  There is these days a red-hot theory in theoretical physics that in some sense all of reality is some sort of hologram, a holographic universe, the holographic principle.   Now consider in the show we have been hearing about holograms recently, and consider how the interior of Missy’s Nethersphere was depicted, with the buildings on the inside of a gigantic spherical surface.

    Perhaps to be in a different dimension like Gallifrey is is to be on a different holographic surface.   Perhaps Missy Nethersphere is another holographic surface.  And what if Missy somehow tapped into a spiritual plane to populate her Nethersphere.  After all the Doctor remarked to Clara before setting off to find Danny Pink that every culture had some notion of the afterlife.

     

     

    #44614
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @arbutus: What I am thinking is that Missy’s plan is to create a companion Clara with whom the Doctor will be so emotionally invested that her loss would completely shatter the Doctor’s desire to have longterm human companions, at least for a while.  Because Missy means what shes says:  She wants her friend, the Doctor, back.

    I wouldn’t mind if for a season the Doctor chose companions whom he told in advance they would have an adventure or two and no more, that there is a definite time limit.  Imagine if for one serial the Doctor traveled with Kate Stewart (who I believe is deliberately being portrayed as non-military so that the Doctor would find her acceptable).  Or a revived Osgood.  Or River Song. Or even Missy.

     

     

    #44615
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @bluesqueakpip     Okay, I hadn’t read your most recent posts before writing the one above.  🙂  I very much like the idea that Clara might end up leaving Earth and staying on someplace else where she is needed, as Romana did. I quite liked it in Last Christmas, when I briefly believed that Clara had gone on to live a full life to its conclusion, because I really wouldn’t be happy with the notion that there was no way she could move on from Danny’s death. Her words to Bennett suggest that we might be moving in that direction (i.e. finding a new purpose, possibly away from Earth). Given your regeneration idea, maybe on Gallifrey?

    #44616
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @jimthefish    There seem to be two types of whiner on the other site. There are those who have liked no Doctor Who since RTD, and there are those who have liked no DW since 1989. I suspect that the majority of those complaining now still prefer the RTD era show, which to be fair had quite a different feel than Moffat’s less blockbuster, more timey-wimey approach.

    I was also amused to see people complain that the show is making itself inaccessible to casual or new viewers, and then complain again because the show takes a few moments to explain a concept that might be unfamiliar to casual or new viewers. And  as for the people complaining because an episode takes some of its ideas from someplace else, I wonder whether they understand where stories come from? Almost nothing is ever entirely new; all it takes to understand the truth of that is a browse through TV Tropes.  🙂

    For myself, I must say that this current era is working up to being my favourite of the AG show. I didn’t dislike RTD’s years; if I had, I wouldn’t have continued to watch, as I was playing catchup at that time and it was costing me actual money. 🙂 There were always things I liked and things I didn’t. But as far as suiting my tastes, I found that I liked it better as it went on, and I felt a whole new love once we reached Series 5. For me, 6 and 7 never matched that height, but I appreciated on the whole what Steven Moffat and Matt Smith were trying to bring to the show, with probably a greater depth of interest than I had earlier. And when Capaldi came on board, it all seemed to gel for me, pretty much immediately.

    Is he the stern father figure. The aloof professor? No, he’s the ageing rock star. And I think it works really well.    Even more, I think he’s the aging rock star who reads books on philosophy and quantum physics in his spare time, who has embraced social media and supports the occasional cause, without wearing it on his sleeve too much. I agree that the quest of last series, to rediscover himself and his purpose, has led to a very good place indeed.

    #44617
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @bluesqueakpip

    I don’t recall seeing the Doctor quite this hysterical about companions-in-danger before. So I think that he knows Clara’s future. He thinks she dies young.

    Nail –> head.  That is exactly what I have been thinking.  It builds on the hints last season that he knows something of her future, that it is coming relatively soon, and it is not good.  Now that he is sure of Who and what he is, the turnaround from ‘She cares so that I don’t have to’ to ‘I have a duty of care’ is telling, because he, of all people, must understand bereavement and the process of grief, both hers and, in anticipation, his own.

    Glimpses of the future, like oracular prophecies, can be misleading, and I hope you are right and that the Doctor has misinterpreted what he thinks he has seen.  Her death would be tragic, but in a sense it would also be a cop out. The mystery of her existence needs to be resolved – and I very much like the idea that she embodies a causal loop – but her exit from the scene should not be as ordinary as death, even if the death is heroic.

     

    #44618
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @arbutus

    I think he’s the aging rock star who reads books on philosophy and quantum physics in his spare time

    So he’s Brian May with short hair?

    OK, astrophysics and quantum physics are not exactly the same, but you get the idea  😀

     

    #44619
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @Supernumerary     While it might be considered a cliché, I think that if something is presented for a purpose within the narrative, that shouldn’t negate using it anyway. In this case, of course, to draw our attention to Clara’s situation.

    @janetteb  @juniperfish   I would have to agree that, if Gallifrey is to be brought back, it would only be worth doing if it could be treated as an opportunity for proper, in-depth world building, with Joe Citizen as well as Time Lords, and the occasional exploration into how those aspects of the society fit together. That could be interesting, especially if they don’t overdo it and spend too much time there all at once.

    @jphamlore    Interesting ideas, both about Clara and the Nethersphere. I agree that I would love the Doctor travelling with less long-term companions for awhile, and I think it’s something that would suit this particular incarnation well. Both because of where he finds himself in his own development, and because I always enjoy his brief relationships with the different types of people that he meets.

    #44620
    lisa @lisa

    @bluesqueakpip @mudlark @jphamlore

    I’m totally expecting a block buster twist about Clara’s last days. I expect nothing less!
    It seems to me that when Clara says ‘you don’t leave me’ that hit a nerve in the Doctor
    because he nearly keeled over. Why? Because he knows he needs to be with her to help with
    what ever it is will be her ending.

    #44621
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @mudlark   Well, yes, exactly. And, currently, a Scottish accent.  🙂

    Seriously, there is a possibly surprising number of people who played in rock bands and then went on to science careers (the lovely Brian Cox comes to mind, but I have encountered others, recently). Brian May skewed the other direction, but music and physics don’t seem to lie as far apart on the spectrum for some people as they did for me! My husband has a doctorate in music, but also an undergrad in geology, and my son, whose main interests lie in technology and physics, is becoming a fairly serious chorister as well. I am more of a one trick pony myself.

    The Doctor, of course, should be as broad as possible in his interests.

    #44625
    django @django

    Hi,

    Does anyone else think we may not have seen the end of the Fisherking?

    1) We dont see the body
    2) Hes already died once
    and
    3) He actually wanted to be brought to a planet with large tracts of water.

    …perhaps hes the Minister Of War?

    #44626
    Rob @rob

    Great set of posts, as per use-er-aaaal

    I do belive that quite some time ago Clara is a Claricle debate occured , this may be the forums own loop 🙂

    Clara has been a Dalek twice, cried Mercy (echoed/introduced that word to the Dalek lexicon as the Daleks are timeytimey too) Died first time survived second

    Died near the pond fighting the GI (Fisher King is in effect the same as the GI) Survives the biblical flood second time.

    So the Fisher King will return and claim Clara’s soul

    Yup I’ve been on the quintuple espressos again

    #44628
    lisa @lisa

    @blenkinsopthebrave Well if you are an appallingly rank sentimentalist then I think
    that holds for most of the rest of us as well! Who doesn’t wish Clara an ending
    in which everything works out ( and also everything that we have been bonkerizing
    also adds up 😉 )

    #44629
    lisa @lisa

    @django Interesting notion!

    @rob Yes!

    #44632
    gamergirlavatar @gamergirlavatar

    Another master piece created by Toby Whitehouse. All the characters work well in the story and brought magic into these episodes. Wonderful monsters were great and went into the setting and timeline very well. These monsters could never appear again because of there background and how they were inter twine in the time and they had the story of a life time. However, every thing was predictable. The moment The Doctor stepped off the TARDIS, you can see the whole story flash right in front of you, solving the mystery but, the journey was a roller coaster. If you have to choose one Whitehouse episode to watch, this would be the one I recommend.

    #44633
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @arbutus

    The Doctor, of course, should be as broad as possible in his interests.

    Indeed he should!  If someone is able to live so long, with multiple lifespans, they had damn well better make good use of the time in return for the privilege. Come to think of it, a lifetime of more than two millennia (estimated) would become pretty tedious without multiple interests and insatiable curiosity 🙂

    #44636
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    When I posted on this episode after a first viewing I revealed my disappointment. I felt it was primarily Toby Whithouse demonstrating his cleverness by creating a puzzle, which he had to: a) direct our attention to at the beginning of the episode in a rather didactic way, and b) have the Doctor explain to us (rather than show us) how the puzzle worked at the end of the episode.

    But at the end of my post, I held out hopes that subsequent viewings might change my impression. Well, I just finished watching again, and if anything, I felt its flaws were more acute on a second viewing. I recall that after last week’s episode there was a huge amount of discussion on the Fisher King in Arthurian legend and on the meaning of the mural on the wall of the rec room on the base.

    In light of this week’s episode, what did either have to do with the story? My understanding of the Fisher King (TS Eliot and Arthurian legend) is that he is not an evil character, but that his infertility is representive of the infertility of the land and so I am struggling to understand why Whithouse gave the alien warlord that name. And the mural. As far as I could see, it played no role in the story that unfolded. Could it be that these things were dropped in by Whithouse to make the story seem more complex than it was?  (which is my suspicion) Or is there a longer game at play here that will only be revealed later?

     

     

    #44638
    Mirime @mirime

    @ozitenor I love mention of past companions. I was ridiculously happy when the eleventh Doctor mentioned having a gobby Australian on the Tardis  😀

    #44639
    ichabod @ichabod

    @supernumerary   I think the rock theme more came down to “wouldn’t this be cool, guys!”, and having Capaldi’s guitar right before the theme provided a nice excuse.

    Sounds good enough to me!

    @jimthefish  . . . despite the comprehensive embracing of the BG show in these episodes, the troll-brigade on t’other place are still baying for cancellation. Moffatt seems to be giving them exactly what they’ve been asking for and they’re still not happy. I just don’t get it. (Nice work on the drive-by troll btw.)

    Oh, Standard Trolling Procedure — never change your whine, no matter what.

    It took us a while to get a handle on his Doc. Is he the stern father figure. The aloof professor? No, he’s the ageing rock star. And I think it works really well.

    It does — and since it’s authentic to Capaldi’s youthful years, it sits very well on him now, too.  Am I nuts, or was he chewing *gum* when he made the tank entrance?

    @miapatrick  I like the moments when the Doctor talks to us- I liked it in Listen as well. Partly because Capaldi is so good at it. It also increases the sense of the Doctor as a kind of teacher

    I liked that aspect too; and he can be a good teacher, when he’s not rushed or rattled or emotionally involved (see KtM, prime example).  I like that too — sometimes he does a thing well, sometimes he does the same thing pants-ily, it’s conditional — like life.

    @jphamlore  The Doctor and Clara on the other hand are a temporary relationship pretending to be permanent. Neither, especially Clara, seems to be dealing with the fact that the Doctor and a companion’s relationship ends in a jarringly abrupt way

    right; not a word about that, not from him — because he knows it’s coming with the anxious certainty of one who has gone through it so many times before; and not from her because if that goes (and she survives), what’s left for her?  She would have to re-invent herself all over again as a human, and frankly I don’t think she has the heart for it, and I read things as, she doesn’t think so either.  Powder keg a-rolling.

    @bluesqueakpip  to sara-jane109, beautifully laid out, and thank you.  very possible that Clara’s ‘exit’ is one where she will stay somewhere permanently because they need her to be the Doctor. She’s reported dead, because she never returns to 21st Century Earth.

    That, to my mind, is the optimal outcome for her, but frankly, I’m doubtful.  Although maybe by the end of S9, she’ll have stabilized her mental balance enough to be able to recognize, evaluate, and choose that option if it presents itself.  Maybe.

    @lisa Interesting that a group of Ravens is known as a conspiracy.  Oh, you just gotta watch out for that anti-raven propaganda, you know!

    @arbutus   I think that the part of the Doctor who put her to bed with jammie dodgers, and sat guard outside her house all night, is currently well submerged in the complexity of the Time Lord psyche.

    I do too; the TL stage, which is universe-wide, has engulfed him again, starting with the Davros encounter, and Clara really isn’t part of that *as the Doctor’s inhumanly deep history*.  She finds herself shut out of that, a sort of almost bit-player, trying hard to get back in.  It may be that the only way to do that is to crash his (resumed, after S8’s trauma) party in a death-defying way that might defy death but not escape it.

    @lisa   It seems to me that when Clara says ‘you don’t leave me’ that hit a nerve in the Doctor because he nearly keeled over. Why? Because he knows he needs to be with her to help with what ever it is will be her ending.

    This fits nicely with Missy’s parting taunt in TWF — that it’s not the Master who runs away, it’s always been the Doctor.  So, given that parting with Clara may be exceptionally painful as he envisions it, running away might in fact be a sort of sneaky background desire that Clara’s “you don’t leave me” struck sparks from.  If, when it comes to it, there’s literally nothing he can do to save her, it might be a struggle for him to stay and just be there for it, the way it is for people whose go-to answer to a problem is, okay, how do we FIX this?

    @rob   So the Fisher King will return and claim Clara’s soul  Yup I’ve been on the quintuple espressos again

    Hell, man, where do you get your coffee??!!!

    @blenkinsopthebrave  I’m hoping for a longer game; but you might be right.

    #44640
    lisa @lisa

    @ichabod Actually you really have to watch out for the lizard people, my favorite
    conspiracy! No one know who they are. Its an illuminati thing and they are so secret 😉

    In regards to the Doctor running away he did regenerate into the war Doctor rather then take
    a runner. He also spent hundreds of years at Trenzalore to protect the planet. I’m not sure
    if Missy using those words about running away weren’t a bit of an exaggeration. To my mind it
    was usually the Master that escaped when conflicts became too unmanageable. So I’m not ready
    to completely buy into her running away comment. Although she might be referring to a particular
    personal incident that occurred between the 2 of them ages ago? Have3 to give that more of a think

    Does everybody remember retconing? When you wipe the memories. I wonder? Maybe that could be
    what happens to Clara. Maybe something like what the Doctor did to Donna to save her life?
    just another wild thought…….

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