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“Clara, my Clara”

Everyone seems to be thinking that this means that Missy has chosen Clara for some sort of nefarious purpose – but what if it is the other way round – what if Missy is referring to when Clara came and tried to comfort her as a small boy, and gave him Dan the Soldier man?

This could be strong evidence that the Master was the Boy In Bed In The Barn.

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@brewski Could the Dark Water tanks have anything to do with the repeated mention of Clara’s ability to hold her breath?

That would certainly be “for the dads”, as the euphemism goes, since all non living inorganic material would be rendered invisible by the Dark Water, so all we would see would be skin.

And eyes.

Big, big eyes.

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@alex Just added my scores to the sheet, looks like Tennant really is my doctor, followed closely for Troughton and Mcgann (been listening to his audio stories and been loving it), Smith had a lot of more good episodes then I remembered, I think Series 7 wich had some episodes I didin’t like left me a bad impression of his doctor overall!

Excellent! Yes – I was surprised that I rated Tennant as highly as I did – I had forgotten that probably the best (IMHO) two AG episodes were during his tenure.

Also, I was surprised that Davison was much lower than I expected, since he was *my* Doctor, given that my first real memory of Doctor Who was the Melkur from the first showing of Keeper of Traken, and the first story I remembered was Castrovalva.

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@purofilion phenomenal work on the spreadsheet -helped perhaps by the mods. Boy, I can hardly ‘cut and paste’. It looks fab and I shall endeavour to head there for a longer time to add my values.

Thank you very much!

Alas, I spend far too much of my time playing with spreadsheets than is really healthy. I’m not too familiar with Google Sheets, but my Excel-Fu is pretty good.

Looking forward to seeing your ratings!

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@drben

Actually, there was a bug in the sheet caused by my trying to cut and paste new categories from my Excel master sheet. The formulas for the Sontaran, Master and Gallifrey sections hadn’t copied properly, so they were just showing the data without doing any calculations.

It is fixed now!

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@drben The category averages should be on the “Do Not Edit” tab.

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I’ve updated the spreadsheet with a few more categories. We can now see ratings for the following:

• Doctor (Pertwee and McGann are trending highest here – each on 4.17 out of 5)
• Series/Season (Forum Average: 3.72 out of 5)
• Christmas Specials (Forum Average: 3.74 out of 5)
• River Song (Forum Average: 4.49 out of 5)
• Paternoster Gang (Forum Average: 4.07 out of 5)
• Daleks (Forum Average: 4.06 out of 5)
• Cybermen (Forum Average: 3.42 out of 5)
• Sontarans (Forum Average: 3.94 out of 5)
• The Master (Forum Average: 3.79 out of 5)
• Gallifrey (Forum Average: 3.94 out of 5)
• Unit (Forum Average: 4.07 out of 5)

So far, three people have voted (including me).

@fatmaninabox is clearly a Gallifrey fan, giving all Gallifrey episodes rated a perfect 5 out of 5!

@phileasf – I was also surprised about how much I have enjoyed many of the Pertwee stories, and there are several classics that I have yet to see!

With regard to River – I agree that she has tended to appear in very strong stories, which certainly sets her arc above many of the others – as you say, it is clear that the Moff had a strong vision with where he wanted to take the character.

I think one of the key differences between the AG and BG stories is that, if a BG story was a stinker, it might fester in the memory for week after week (The Twin Dilemma, I’m looking at you), but the great stories can leave on ongoing sense of mystery and suspense.

One of the stories that I usually find that I rate higher than other fans is Terminus, mainly because I saw it at an impressionable age and the idea of an accident being able to both create and destroy a universe really captured my imagination.

For anyone who missed the link:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OMlaYpWrBclrz3YddmTFjanxaK02tzmr_lXKaZwxiJs/edit?usp=sharing

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@mudlark Archaeologists tend to have a rather ghoulish sense of humour

Does that include sneaking around Egyptian tombs, wearing a gas mask and asking “Are you my mummy?”

Speaking of Greyfriars – I was very pleased when they made the announcement because I remember going shopping in Leicester as a small child, and my father always used to park in that car park, so I have very probably walked all over Richard III’s grave! Finding an actual *named* individual’s remains from that long ago (where the grave wasn’t clearly marked like Tutankhamun’s) seems incredible!

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@mudlark I have excavated – and seen the analyses – of too many Saxon and medieval burials to be convinced by that assertion.  Prove it, I say!  (And, just for the record, the gravedigger scene in Hamlet is exactly true to life/death).

Touché! One cannot argue with Shakespeare in terms of either archaeological methodology or historical accuracy – the chap was prodigiously error-free in all his outputs. Why, only just the other year they found one of his leading men under a car park in Leicester exactly where Shakespeare said he would be (just off Horsefair Street where he was looking to purchase a horse for the price of his kingdom).

As for the moon egg, I thought I had provided a very satisfactory exposition of the pseudo-science behind that: the ‘egg’ the space dragon laid was not moon sized; it was a super-dense egg – a neutron egg, if you like (which accounted for the increase in mass of the moon without increase in size)  which inflated to moon size after it had been laid.

There was *something* super-dense about that episode, but I’m not sure it was the egg… (mumbles something about silly plots)

In skimming through yesterday’s contributions just now (to refresh my memory) I noticed that my post #34529 in response to you was incorrectly addressed; my apologies.   I didn’t notice at the time because there is someone registered with the user name badwolf – which must have caused confusion if they were alerted.

No need to apologise!

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@phileasf I’ve been looking at Clara’s bookcase. Saw something odd, a ‘Body Swap Ticket’ (the preceding word is illegible… MIxxxSCAPE?

Presumably this is a ticket for a recreational body swapping experience.

I believe it is for a “Hyperscape Body Swap Ticket”:

(From the 2013 Prom)

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@fatmaninabox

Thank you!

It’s interesting to see how people have had different reactions to various episodes – I really suspect that I am in the minority in my profound feeling of “meh” regarding the Family of Blood episodes – most people seemed to love them!

I’ll look into modifying it with extra categories – so if anyone else has any suggestions… so far we have:

• The Master
• Sontarans
• UNIT
• K9
• Some way of rating companions (although, by story seems a little unfair, because for example Warrior’s Gate was awesome despite having Adric!)

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@blenkinsopthebrave Moffat rarely bothers to take the time to explain away stuff like that, and probably correctly so–because, at the end of the day, most people are willing to accept it.

And it would ruin some enjoyable bonkers theorising!

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@craig – if this works, perhaps we could have an Episode ratings thread?

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Hi all!

If anyone is interested, at @craig ‘s and @thommck ‘s recommendations, I have put up an editable version of my Doctor Who ratings calculations spreadsheet onto Google Docs:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OMlaYpWrBclrz3YddmTFjanxaK02tzmr_lXKaZwxiJs/edit?usp=sharing

This is the first time I’ve used Google Docs, so let me know if it doesn’t work.

The spreadsheet works as follows:

• 2 tabs, one called Data Entry, one called Do Not Edit
• On Data Entry, type your name (e.g. BadWulf) in the top row in an empty column
•  Now you can go down your column, giving ratings to each story
• The ratings go from 1 to 5, with an N/A as the default value for a story you’ve not seen in its entirety (it would be unfair to rate a story you’ve not seen!)
• There is a grey column with average scores – this is a calculated column, so don’t edit it!
• There is a black row beneath every season, which will give an average of your scores for that season, if you have seen all of the stories. (It will show N/A if any of your individual scores in that season are N/A)
• There is a green row beneath the last story per Doctor, which will give your average score for that Doctor (It will show N/A if any of your individual scores for that Doctor are N/A)

 

• The Do Not Edit tab shows some interesting breakdowns of the data in various categories, e.g. Doctors, Cybermen stories, River Song stories. The cells on this page should *not* be edited!

 

I hope this works, and is interesting!

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@mudlark And even if a time travelling entity could download the consciousness of each and every one of them, I can vouch for the fact that they could not have harvested all the bodies  – trust me, I’m an archaeologist 

Pshaw! – in a show where giant moon eggs can hatch and instantly lay identical moon eggs of the same size, and single-celled life can have all the features of multi-celled eukaryotes yet still be considered prokaryotic, your so-called archaeological remains could easily be faked. :p

Did anyone else spot that the person who was said to have founded 3W was Dr Skarosa 

3W  =  www/world wide web.  Hmmm,  is that how Missy has been keeping tabs on the Doctor and Clara?  (well, that and the I-pads).

It could be, although I thought that the Doctor’s comment about reading it back to front would make 3W look like leetspeak “WE”, indicating some sort of collective.

The mausoleum with the tanks containing the cybermen bore a distinct resemblance to the tanks containing the Silents in The Wedding of River Song.  Coincidence?  I think not.

I thought so, too, but assumed that it was essentially a bit of misdirection on the part of the Moff, rather like the “Time Lady that you left behind”.

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@apopheniac …but wasnt the point of the dark water that it contained/only showed actual organic material?  The bones, bodies – but not souls.  So I agree with people who think that Danny isnt dead, and that the Nethersphere contains people who arent actually dead.

A good point. Hopefully we will have some sort of explanation as to how the Mistress was able to transmat people’s still living bodies away, whilst leaving a dead body (some sort of dummy copy?) for people to treat as if it was the real body!

New bonkers theory: The Master transmats people away at the point of death to the nethersphere, but replaces their body with a ganger made of the Flesh (see The Rebel Flesh, The Almost People), that is able to feel everything that is done to the “corpse”, and send that back through the telepathic remote control to the real person, to induce them to voluntarily hit the DELETE button.

 

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@thekrynoidman Tony Ainley is done up in yellowface to make him seem exotic and inscrutable.

Actually, it’s kind of worse than that, it’s more like zombie-warlock yellowface.

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Now that the season plot arc seems to be all about stealing souls to power Cybermen, I am less sanguine about the creepy smiling sister at the end of In the Forest of the Night. Although, there is nothing to prevent the Moff from setting up threads in one season that he doesn’t pick up for years.

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@thekrynoidman  The kiss however, is something I don’t think I will ever get over.

They all said that about 8 and Grace, and yet now it just seems like another facet of the Doctor’s character, and soon it will be the same about the Master.

It’s a darn sight better than the ridiculous Master of The End of Time, the racist Master of Time Flight, or the pathetic Master of Planet of Fire. (to me at least!).

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I really enjoyed that – the emotional impact of the beginning, plus the fun with Missy telling fibs about who she was.

The Steve Jobs gag made me chuckle!

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@TheCrackIntheWall Did you know that Alan Moore has encountered demons?

Well, if he lives in Northampton, he’s bound to have encountered some sort of eldritch abomination – it comes with the territory.

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@drben It’s funny, I have only thought KtM was a true stinker this season, and have certainly enjoyed all the other episodes, but weirdly, according to my number crunching, unless the last two stories average more than a 3 on my rating scale, this will be my lowest rated AG season, excluding the Tennant specials!

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@pedant

All good points! (I have the box set of Buffy, but I’ve only got as far as the middle of season 2 – I presume it is worth continuing with?

I have found that many newer TV shows work better and feel more coherent when I can binge watch them. Doctor Who is really the only thing I watch on TV now as it airs (aside from Strictly, which Ms BadWulf is rather fond of).

Perhaps @TheCrackIntheWall , your perspective on the current storytelling would be different if the show was watched over a much shorter period of time?

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@beancounter Well, I don’t have time to respond to everyone, but I think you all understand that primates are generally considered “lower life forms”, relative to humans, and that’s where the bashing comes in. But you can view things from a certain perspective to fit your own internal narrative…so we are not going to agree.

Also, that was not the only point I made in the thread. However, that is the only one everyone commented on, so can I assume you all agree on my other points? Or were you just cherry picking the only point you could “win” on?

What do you mean “lower”? I’m trying to understand *your* internal narrative, as it would appear to be a little incoherent, and I would like to help to bring it some structure, and perhaps, dare I say it, rigour, by pointing out where some of the more glaring factual inexactitudes are.

At the moment, there is nothing for us to reach agreement on, since I have not brought up discussion points, but simply identified where you were in error. This community is based on collaborative conversations about something for which we have a shared affection – there are no competitions or debates, and thus, to speak about points to “win” on would be entirely missing the point.

And is it me, or are they mentioning that Doctor Who is 2,000 years old a lot this season.

Why not 1,000 or 3,000 years old? (or some other number)

You don’t need to be a theologian to understand what’s being implied.

Certainly, we have promised lands, afterlives, Lazarus-sisters and a protagonist who has reached the end of his allotted lives, sacrificed himself for an entire world of innocents, and then been granted a whole new existence by a powerful force. These are tropes that permeate our culture, and it would be difficult to find a show that hasn’t played with them at some point.

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@fatmaninabox

Surely you mean T2? T3 was horrid!

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@beancounter To me that statement is rather direct and obvious man bashing. Apes are generally considered less intelligent than humans and brutish. Therefore comparing men to apes is an intentional insult pretending to be a good natured jab. Clearly you disagree, so please explain why.

All men *are* apes, it is an indisputable fact.

Given that humans are a subset of the hominids, and hominids are a subset of the apes.

I don’t take offence at being called a mammal, a vertebrate, or even an animal, because the terms are entirely accurate and I have better things to do with my time.

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@beancounter It was just an unintentional typo, hardly a crime.

Indeed – I was simply drawing your attention to it, because it was making it tricky to actually respond to you, as the autolinks were not working.

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@TheCrackIntheWall Is it multiplayer? I tend to avoid multiplayer, as I much prefer the immersion involved in single player campaigns. There’s only so much being dubbed a “n00b” and being “pwned” that I can take before losing interest!

I was comparing Halo to Larry Niven’s Ringworld (a novel) because AFAIK both of them involve megastructures in the shape of a loop that imitate gravity via centripetal force on their rotating inner surfaces (Ringworld is built around a star)

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@beancounter And then there is the subtle man-bashing. Remember the first episode of the season? “All men are apes”

How is the statement in quotes incorrect? I see no man-bashing, subtle or otherwise.

Also, your username is spelt incorrectly and doesn’t match your profile name.

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@melloyello I watch quite a few movies, but usually don’t mind when they came out. In fact I quite recently watched André Øvredal’s Trolljegeren, which is an absolutely hilarious blend of the found-footage, monster and fantasy genres from 2010. I would recommend it to anyone who hasn’t seen it. Otto Jesperson’s catchphrase had me in stitches! (I won’t spoil it for anyone who hasn’t seen it.)

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@TheCrackIntheWall

I’ve never played Halo or its sequels. I was given to understand that it was kind of like Larry Niven’s Ringworld crossed with Unreal Tournament – is that a fair assessment?

I’ve tended to be disappointed with novels based on video games – the main example I can think of are Drew Karpshyn’s Star Wars: The Old Republic and Darth Bane novels, which were shlocky despite being written by the same person who wrote the stories for the awesome video games on which the novels were based.

Are the Halo novels worth reading as a standalone without playing the games?

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What’s to prevent even the toy soldier being a TARDIS, if size and mass considerations can be disregarded?

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@rob Really interesting,  take it you’re a River fan too, or did that surprise you too.

I do rather like River, but, yes, I was also surprised that the episodes with her in were ones that I consistently appreciated much more highly than average.

@blenkinsopthebrave @drben @thommck In other news – I have now emailed the spreadsheet to @craig, so soon we might all be able to enjoy some story rating shenanigans!

@janetteb I really enjoyed the lists. I wasn’t quite sure if the ratings for the later ones were episode or character based. Ie you were rating the Doctor/RiverSong/Daleks or the stories in which they featured. I would like at some time to try doing my own ratings and see how they compare.

The calcs are based on my rating for the stories (BG) / Episodes (AG). I suppose I could add another section to the spreadsheet to show how each companion is rated overall…

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@purofilion @arbutus  and @bobbyfat yes I thought that too! The idea that someone could be rattling around the TARDIS with the Dr -I didn’t say the crucial “another TARDIS inside a TARDIS’ though! Great idea.

It has been suggested before! In post #33840 on the Flatline thread. (I may not have been the first to suggest it, though!)

Given that TARDISes materialising inside each other caused recursion problems before (in Logopolis), it is possible that there were clues in Flatline to show that:

1) TARDISes can be whatever size they want;

2) TARDISes can be whatever weight they want;

3) People can carry TARDISes around with them;

Therefore, by carrying a TARDIS into another TARDIS may prevent that kind of recursion.

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@phaseshift I can’t particularly fault the message of this one. Trees are about the most useful thing on the planet.

Agreed – it made the story much more palatable than “risk the entire human race on the off chance a spacebaby is harmless”.

As far as the science goes – it’s exaggerated, but the points are very, very real. Deforestation directly reduces the biosphere’s capacity to absorb, reflect and convert heat. If you want to survive a devastating blast, the inside of a forest is where you want to be – plant tissue can act as a highly efficient absorbent – the Tunguska reference was well made. If that air burst event hadn’t happened where it did, and all those trees were not around to take the blast, the radius could have been far wider.

I’ve seen photos of the Tunguska aftermath, it is sobering. They remind me of when I visited Mt. St. Helens with Ms BadWulf on our honeymoon. It was the eeriest place I’d ever been, surrounded by endless miles of tree trunks flat on the ground, still plain after more than 30 years.

 

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@spider – has the disappointment affected your spider-signature?

Oh and another thing i forgot to say, the girl sister of child-i-have-forgotten-name-of who appears from the bushes in a haze of golden flashes and gives a lovely smile? My immediate thought was ‘future companion’ 

I thought – “Hmm, this is someone who has returned from the dead…”

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@bluesqueakpip In fairness to the writer, the magic trees had the ability to produce or withhold oxygen. The Doctor, in fact, said they were withholding oxygen, that was what made them fireproof – you can’t have fire without oxygen. I think Boyce had some vague idea that the magic trees basically reversed the gas exchange and exhaled a cloud of CO2 (presumably with enough oxygen for us on the ground to keep breathing).

The atmosphere is basically what protects us from solar flares and Coronal Mass Ejections, so suddenly expanding it could plausibly act as an extra security blanket. Not in real science, of course, but plausibly enough for a story.

Agreed – and this is why I am much less inclined to care about the bad science here than in Kill the Moon – it looks like the writer tried to come up with something plausible, and either made a mistake or took it too far (hey, even ozone, which protects us from solar radiation, is a form of oxygen!). This writer didn’t rely on “Awww – wook, a wuvwy spwace bwaby” to distract us away from the stupid. This writer tried!

Kill the Moon shall not be forgiven. Ever. Ever! (stamps foot)

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Re: Danny Pink

@bluesqueakpip … and he probably didn’t. 

That would fit in to the bonkers arc we have been theorizing for him.

Still, today I found Danny in a much more mellow, yet “with it” mode. He seemed less like a restless ghost with unresolved issues in his past, and more like a man who has made his peace, and is now just trying to do some good in the world.

Almost as if there was a PTSD Danny, and a recovered Danny from later on in his timestream…

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@thekrynoidman True, but that was resolved pretty quickly.

A quick resolution does not necessarily mean an automatic resolution – the Doctor still needed to intervene. I can see your point about the anticlimax, though!

I was sufficiently bought into the smaller story of resolving Maeve’s problems to not care overmuch about the world threat. One thing that I wish AG Who would do is to dial back the Earth/Humanity/Universe/Reality destroying threats. A young woman alone and terrified by living statues is a far more compelling story than yet another fleet of Daleks getting into position to be zapped by a flick of the sonic screwdriver.

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@devilishrobby Agreed re: Danny as red herring – that would be typical Moff sleight of, erm, character.

Regarding the science – I understand the need for suspension of disbelief, but it can do real harm to a story if the science is done poorly when it is unnecessary to the story. Here, the magic trees made oxygen, which apparently protected the Earth from solar radiation. By reducing the combustibility of the atmosphere. Which is very very silly, but it is done by *magic trees*, so it gets a pass from me. The reason for this is I think that the writer wanted to get across the message of “Trees are good. Trees make oxygen. Magic trees use oxygen to save us. We should therefore be thankful to trees”. I’m OK with that, even though it didn’t make a blind bit of sense, because it struck me as if the writer had tried to think it through, but had unfortunately come to a silly conclusion!

This differs from Kill the Moon, in which the science was offensively bad, and for no good reason other than the writer was too lazy to think about the science at all, and tried to distract us with technobabble.

Imagine if we consider geography instead of science. If a writer tells us that a protagonist in a hurry travelled from Warsaw to Krakow via Posnan, we may not worry about it because we are ignorant of Polish geography. If the same writer tells us that the same hurrying character goes from Cardiff to London via Aberdeen, then we start beginning to think the writer has done a critical research failure. Even if the story is a fantasy, that would appear stupid to us. However, if the writer introduces, say, a magic door network that somehow means that going via Aberdeen is a shortcut, then the author has introduced a plausible reason for the route.

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@thekrynoidman I also felt that the ending was also an anti-climax since the problem seemed to just resolve itself and The Doctor didn’t seem to do all that much.

I’m not so sure. The Doctor’s intervention was to prevent humanity using the defoliants that would have stripped the Earth of its magical tree protection.

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Well – that was certainly a fun episode, if a little lightweight!

The story was interesting, and the awful science wasn’t as egregious as in Kill the Moon, although it was still pretty terrible. I have no problem with magic forests, but magic forests that increase the O2 level to reduce the inflammability of something need to go back and study their chemistry lessons!

The child actors were surprisingly good – Maeve in particular had some great reactions to the wolves!

I much preferred Danny this week – he was written in a way that revealed much more gentleness and acceptance than I’d seen previously – he didn’t seem controlling, and I think that was due to the script being tighter, although it might be cleverer than that, and we as the audience are supposed to be more trusting of Danny because Clara is.

In conclusion, I’m going to give it 3 out of 5.

Looking forward to next week – as the preview was explosive! (please keep the discussion of the preview out of the discussion of this episode, though!)

 

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Just noticed Planet of the Daleks was included twice in the Daleks data:

The new average is 3.95

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@drben Indeed! Maybe I should multiply each rating by the length in minutes of each episode, then divide by the total number of minutes…

Nah – far too complicated!

I was actually surprised that Eccleston came out ahead of Tennant!

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Cybermen:

Earthshock 5
Army of Ghosts 5
Rise of the Cybermen 4
The Age of Steel 4
The Tomb of the Cybermen 3
Attack of the Cybermen 3
Doomsday 3
The Next Doctor 3
Nightmare in Silver 3
Revenge of the Cybermen 2
Closing Time 2

Average Score 3.36

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Daleks:

Day of the Daleks 5
Genesis of the Daleks 5
Resurrection of the Daleks 5
Remembrance of the Daleks 5
Dalek 5
The Parting of the Ways 5
Army of Ghosts 5
The Stolen Earth 5
Asylum of the Daleks 5
The Day of the Doctor 5
Into the Dalek 4
Planet of the Daleks 3
Planet of the Daleks 3
Destiny of the Daleks 3
Revelation of the Daleks 3
Bad Wolf 3
Doomsday 3
Daleks in Manhattan 3
Journey’s End 3
Evolution of the Daleks 2
Victory of the Daleks 2

Average Score 3.90

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Paternoster Gang:

The Name of the Doctor 5
The Snowmen 4
The Crimson Horror 4
A Good Man Goes to War 3
Deep Breath 3

Average Score 3.80

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River Song:

Silence in the Library 5
Forest of the Dead 5
The Pandorica Opens 5
The Big Bang 5
The Angels Take Manhattan 5
The Name of the Doctor 5
The Time of Angels 4
Flesh and Stone 4
The Impossible Astronaut 4
Day of the Moon 4
Let’s Kill Hitler 4
A Good Man Goes to War 3
The Wedding of River Song 3

Average Score 4.31

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Christmas Specials:
The Runaway Bride 4
A Christmas Carol 4
The Snowmen 4
The Christmas Invasion 3
Voyage of the Damned 3
The Next Doctor 3
The End of Time Part One 3
The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe 3
The Time of the Doctor 3

Average Score 3.33

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By Doctor:

# Doctor Rating
1 Hartnell Incomplete
2 Troughton Incomplete
3 Pertwee Incomplete
4 T. Baker Incomplete
5 Davison 3.45
6 C. Baker 2.64
7 McCoy Incomplete
8 McGann 4.00
9 Eccleston 3.69
10 Tennant 3.53
11 Smith 3.70
12 Capaldi Incomplete

[Author]

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