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15 November 2014 at 23:47 #35638
Hello @purofilion
BTL = Bacon Tomato Lettuce. On a soft bread roll, it’s the most excellent sandwich *, with a bit a chilli sauce.
* except for a mutton lettuce and tomato sandwich, where the mutton is nice and lean, and the tomato is ripe and perky …
Kidding aside, BTL = Below The Line. Where we unwashed leave our comments. ATL = Above The Line, where people are inexplicably ** paid to write drivel to entice us unwashed to leave comments.
** Have you seen The Guardian lately? Jessica Valenti is the most inexplicable ATL writer I’ve ever seen. She must have some serious pictures of Alan Rusbridger in her file cabinet.
15 November 2014 at 12:14 #35588Hello @whovianlookingforthedoctor and welcome
I woke up, and wanted to know what happened.
That’s a wonderful sentiment about a dream.
Hello @papermoon and @purofilion
I have friends in River Downs, outside of Brisbane. Do you know it? It’s fantastic to see people congregating here from so many places around the globe.
Hello @badwulf
I watched The Daleks a few months ago. Your post reminded me of things that I thought about it, too.
Their gender politics was a trifle unenlightened
Well, it was of its time and I like watching old movies / old TV shows to get that ‘capsule’ feeling – like opening a time capsule to see what people were thinking and how they behaved long ago.
Late last night, I watched The Tenth Planet (so now I have three First Doctor stories under my belt so to speak, having also seen An Unearthly Child). It was interesting to see the Cybermen in their original outing (please someone correct me if that wasn’t the first Cyberman story), and compare them to what we’ve recently seen in Dark Water / Death in Heaven. But watching stories out-of-order is confusing — I didn’t know enough about Ben & Polly or how they ended up with The Doctor to feel enough sympathy with them. I probably need to visit the Tardis Data Core and read up.
15 November 2014 at 11:51 #35587Hello @lisa
I’ve never heard of Regina Carter. That’s a really blues-y piece and both uplifting and calming at the same time. Thanks for sharing.
Hello @scaryb
Is ‘Do Not Stand at My Grave and Weep’ your soundtrack for the Death in Heaven ep?
Hello @arbutus
Ahhh, Louis Armstrong! Nice riff on the Santa teaser in the DiH credits. You introduced the Lau song by attributing it to both of the finale eps. Is there a ‘thing’ in this thread to find music that encapsulates each DW ep? If so, I did my bit for Dark Water above.
15 November 2014 at 11:31 #35586I meant to post this in tribute to Dark Water:
Give Me Water – John Forte & Valerie June
There are so many good songs on this thread! I keep seeing it in the Activity stream and meaning to visit. With no new Who for several weeks, I might instead spend my time scoffing the choices here. Really eclectic and wonderful tunes, everyone.
PS @purofilion — re Trololo — someone on a newspaper website posted that in response to a troll and I’ve kept it bookmarked ever since. But I’ve never listened to more than 3 or so minutes, the whole 10 hours would probably land me in an institution. 🙂
13 November 2014 at 18:28 #35461This probably should be in the Music thread, but it’s so apt right now that I wanted to share it with a wider audience.
13 November 2014 at 16:07 #35454Hello @badwulf
I interpreted this as the Master creating an army for the Doctor using “volunteers”, as the Doctor would probably have had more difficulty taking ownership of a conscript army.
Interesting idea. I hadn’t considered that – I went for ‘The Master is so cold-heartedly evil she laughs at making humans delete their emotions.’ OTOH, I don’t think The Doctor has any idea about the iPad with the Delete option in the Nethersphere, so he must assume that these Cybermen were converted against their will, as all others in his past were.
Hello @purofilion
Right, I’m going to re-watch The Caretaker to see if I can see it through your eyes. It’s wonderful that our viewing experience of Doctor Who incorporates our own real-life experiences; it’s what makes each person’s theorising so interesting to read. I’m trying to discern the ‘Danny’ in my past who is making me so sympathetic to this character.
Hello @phaseshift
‘Masterspotting’ ! That was a great graphic. I hope you make a separate thread to discuss Masters past and present.
Hello @devilishrobby
Good points about twins and how they perceive the differences between them re Osgood. I’m thinking back to The Doctor calling out to Kate, who at that moment is tete-a-tete with Osgood conferring about … what? Telling Osgood’s twin how to act like Osgood? Besides Zygons (a nice throw-back to earlier series) we also have Seb who, when zapped by Missy, had the same colours as any other human zapped, including Osgood. Seb was an AI interface. Could Osgood have been a similar type of interface (ie hologram) except to a living person instead of AI? *
* just trying to keep the flame alive for Osgood’s potential return. Without River Songish timey-wimeyness. I agree with @rob re the finality of death and also the world of Doctor Who with its possibilities of death not being final (hey, look at The Master for a … erm … Masterclass on that topic!) 🙂
13 November 2014 at 08:11 #35427Hello @purofilion
Sorry, I forgot to @ you in my previous comment, regarding the scene with Danny and Clara in the restaurant. (First date jitters, not just his first date with Clara, but perhaps his first in a very long time?)
And I keep forgetting to bring up Courtney, so I’m glad you did. She just dropped off the planet so to speak. 🙂 I can’t even remember right now (and have to go to work soon, so can’t re-watch) but was she even in Forest of the Night? Anyway, we appear to have been teased that she might be an occasional companion, but no appreciable mention at all has been made of her since.
his behaviour in The Caretaker bordered on menacing.
I’m finding myself taking up the mantle of Danny Fan No 1. 🙂 Can you describe what you felt was ‘menacing’ about his behaviour in that ep?
13 November 2014 at 07:55 #35426Hello @rmfgotenks and welcome
It was only in this ep Death in Heaven that Jenna was billed above Peter (and we saw her eyes), and only at the beginning. In the end credits, The Doctor was billed first as usual. This was, I think we all believe, just a cheeky wink from Moffat to the audience since the trailers included Clara saying ‘Clara Oswald never existed.’ As we discovered in this ep, she was just trying to save herself from Cyberdeath and lying … again.
And finally there is Capaldi himself. He only signed on for one season
If you have specific and irrefutable evidence of this, please post it in the Spoilers thread. This thread is only for discussion of this ep (and how it relates to previous eps).
13 November 2014 at 07:50 #35425Hello @barnable @pedant @besd1 @blenkinsopthebrave @spider
I think it was all a con about the-dead-feeling-cremation, just to get them to press the delete button and erase their feelings, so Danny (or others) wouldn’t ruin Missy’s plans
I agree with @pedant, we cannot trust anything Seb or Chang said. On a philosophical note … why was it so important that the person themself press the Delete button? Why wasn’t that something Seb (or Missy) could just do themselves? Since 2005, Cyberman creation hasn’t required that the person delete their own emotions – quite the opposite in fact.
Is this another one of the holes in The Master’s plan which shows how it was destined not to work in the end? Or, a facet of The Master’s over-arching evil that she thought it would be hilarious to force humans to delete their own emotions this time around?
I think that whole graveyard scene would have worked better if he’d kept his facemask on and Clara had interacted with a cyberman.
I agree with you @besd1 in most of what you wrote, except as the days go by after viewing, I’m warming to Danny over the whole series more and more. He was incredibly nervous at his dinner with Clara – for all we know, it’s the first date he’s had since returning from war (and killing that child). And I think it was emotionally important for Clara – and us the viewers – to see Danny’s face in the graveyard. We needed to see the physical expression of his pain, and also be reminded that inside each Cybersuit was a real person.
Hello @arbutus
“Queen, that would be good too.”
I keep meaning to highlight that! What a tease that Moffat is. The Doctor As A Woman door being pushed open ever so slightly more, or just Moffat “chain-pulling” as you say?!
12 November 2014 at 16:51 #35396Hello @barnable
You rogue you! I have watched that 3 times now, and it gets funnier every time. 🙂
12 November 2014 at 16:49 #35395Hello @bardicraptuslive
If you’re new to this site, the amount of comments to read can be quite daunting. However, there is a Search function. At the top right where it says ‘Search Forums’, try Master. The results are returned in reverse chronological order, so you’ll see the newest comments first. I’d also suggest searching on ‘pregnant’ because there has been quite a lot of theorising about this for Clara.
Also, please visit the On The Sofa thread, where you can introduce yourself, talk about your history of watching Doctor Who, etc.
Re Osgood – that’s another hot topic. You might also search on that, to find theories regarding Zygon replacements, comments discussing the gut-punch realism of death, and such.
I agree about Astrid Peth btw. She would’ve made an excellent companion. However, she shouldn’t have shown up in an RTD Christmas special … 😀
12 November 2014 at 10:55 #35385Hello @barnable
Just never bring up Justin Bieber again, please?! 😉
Now, I’ve made my morning break last a half hour so lunch will be similarly curtailed – must off back to the trenches. See youse later.
12 November 2014 at 10:51 #35384Hello @arbutus
I suppose I am old school enough that it didn’t occur to me to worry about the companion needing to sustain a story arc. And in fact, even in AG Who, it hasn’t always been that way.
Sorry, I used ‘arc’ when I could just have easily used ‘development’. Each of the RTD companions (what is ‘AG Who’?) had a clear development of character throughout their series. I guess the arc thing is more of a Steven Moffat thing: The Girl Who Waited, The Impossible Girl. This latest series for Clara actually brought her back into the Rose / Martha * / Donna school of companion – a normal person who becomes extraordinary through her adventures with The Doctor.
I am hoping that the next companion will be arc-less in that definition, or if Clara continues (but it’s hard to see how that can work), that she can continue to grow and develop as a person rather than having an ‘arc’ to play to.
* Speaking of Martha, now I’m wavering again on Osgood as a companion! I went from ‘waahhh, why did she die, I want her as a companion!’ to ‘ooh, maybe there’s the Liz Effect and she’ll be too ‘sciency’ to be a good stand-in for the viewers’, and back to ‘well, Martha was ‘sciency’ and she did all right.’ Flip-flop, flip-flop, that’s me. 😀
12 November 2014 at 10:32 #35382Hello @barnable
I’m glad you went through each of those Danny Pink ‘issues’ in detail. Fwiw, I had no problem with Danny’s character at all.
1. The first thing we learn about him is how all the other females at school are drooling over him, so why shouldn’t Clara, too?
2. Far from controlling, I thought Danny was bending over backwards to accommodate Clara’s need for dangerous adventure, while still gently reminding her that there can be serious consequences from being in danger. But we saw so little of him until this ep that we had to fill in the blanks, and unfortunately for us viewers, it was Clara (lying, lying little Clara) who was filling in those blanks for us. People who think Danny was being over-controlling, imho, were buying into what Clara said with no actual (for us) evidence to the contrary.
3. Totally agree with what you said about ‘poorly written’. Missy was underwritten too until DiH, too, but nobody complained – we just slavered at the theorising possibilities. We just didn’t see enough of Danny to make an informed opinion of him (see my no 2 above). I loved him banging his head on his desk when he didn’t have the nerve to ask Clara out the first time!
4. I’m glad you said this. Perhaps people have Amy/Rory on their minds when they think of an ideal DW companion relationship. I thought Danny’s function in Clara’s life was to be boring (ie, uninterested in travelling in the Tardis) – the perfect stark contrast to her exciting adventures with The Doctor. And moreso than with Rory, this forced her to make a decision as to which life she wants to lead in the long-term.
Also, Danny with his ‘officer issues’ was perfectly placed to try to make Clara see The Doctor in a different light. She didn’t, of course – instead, she tried to become The Doctor herself, not even noticing that she was turning herself into the one thing that Danny couldn’t abide.*
* This is my take on one reason why Clara says at the end ‘I wasn’t very good at it … ‘
12 November 2014 at 10:21 #35381Hello @bluesqueakpip
Regarding John Simm’s Master, you have a better memory than I do so I had to revert to the Tardis Data Core.
Hypnotism was clearly defined as at work through the Archangel Network in Sound of Drums; Martha says that everyone likes Saxon and there’s the fact that no-one worries about his obviously forged biography. I’d forgotten these. And I have a pretty good memory!
Since SoD was 6 years ago, though, I’m still of the opinion that a quickie reminder in DiH regarding The Master’s hypnotic abilities wouldn’t have gone amiss. It feels like I’m belabouring a point, but although there are quite a few people here who don’t seem to forget any detail of any ep, I’ll wager there are many millions more like me who could have done with even a tossed-away one-liner to remind ourselves.
PS reading the TDC about the SoD/LotTL two-parter, I was reminded that The Master says “I win” just before ‘dying’ in 10’s arms. Nice touch for Steven Moffat to repeat that in this ep. 🙂
11 November 2014 at 22:40 #35361Hello @arbutus
I think Oswald would be a great companion. Yes, she is very bright and “sciencey”, but also timid and insecure, probably idealistic as well. She would have lots to learn from experiences with the Doctor.
My own opinion is, that might not sustain a whole series’ arc. We saw a bit of that in her scene with Missy. Now that @bluesqueakpip has advised me on The Master’s history of hypnotism *, it’s clear to me why Osgood crossed the room when Missy asked. (The entire time I was screaming at the TV ‘No!! What are you doing?!’ 🙂 ) But she walked back to her desk and did a fine job of appearing to ignore (the seriousness of) Missy’s countdown, and get on with her work.
We’ve already had Donna, who while being the very antithesis of timid ( ! ) still had bags of insecurity. We saw Donna’s confidence and self-assuredness grow through her experiences with The Doctor. At first glance, Osgood’s arc might be very similar.
* @bluesqueakpip – For the many millions of DW fans who’ve joined in since 2005, The Master being good at hypnotism isn’t known. It would have been good to explain the guards’ behaviour, which could have been done with another one-liner (Missy had so many in this ep).
11 November 2014 at 22:30 #35360@whisht – hah hah hah. Spoken like a true ginger!
How could we have two gingers on screen interacting – if the actors are within ten yards of each other, the static electricity interferes with the studio equipment.
Well, you and I are here sequentially on the same thread, and the DWF servers haven’t blown …. yet …. 😀
9 November 2014 at 19:51 #35171Hello @arbutus (and @ everyone else who replied)
On second thought, DiH’s mid end-credit scene with Santa was equivalent to 11 seeing Donna-in-a-wedding-dress materialise in the Tardis. That ep’s bolt-on scene, however, was inserted as the actual end of the ep.
Inserting this one into the end credits of DiH made it feel like a ‘coming-next trailer’ – and I’m the extreme example of spoilerphobe in that I don’t even watch the ‘coming-next’ guff. So I still send a cross look in the general direction of Steven Moffat. 🙂
9 November 2014 at 18:33 #35165Hello @bluesqueakpip
Thank-you for the links to Terror of the Autons comments. Reading down on Part 1, I found this paragraph in your 1st comment:
It’s interesting how many different ways they find to play the companion. Liz was definitely felt to have not worked – not because of the actress, but because she was also a scientist. Worse, she was a polymath scientist; the last time they’d had a scientist-companion, they’d made her expert in one area only (maths/physics) and made her someone with very little real life experience. Liz could discuss stuff with the Doctor as an equal – but the audience doesn’t need an equal. They need someone who can justify the Doctor explaining things. In English, since the audience doesn’t really speak techno-babble.
Everyone who was especially saddened by the killing of Osgood because The Doctor had just intimated that she could be the next (co-)companion, probably doesn’t remember / know Liz and why her companion character left.
Thinking about what you wrote, you’re probably right. Asthma inhaler might give her a humanising touch, but Osgood was probably too good a scientist to make a good companion.
Speaking of which, I’ve seen The Mind Robber and Zoe was – what? an astrophysicist? – a scientist (is that who you meant in your comment?), but she was paired with Jamie so that rounded the corners a bit.
9 November 2014 at 17:07 #35155Hello @bluesqueakpip
as I said on the Graun, the Master historically has hypnotic powers
Sorry, I’ve never read all the comments there. I only went back to look (at the last page) because of JimTheFish’s comment here.
Apologies for making you say something again, you’re obviously frustrated about that.
Also, I’ve never seen a Delgado Master ep. Do you have a recommendation?
9 November 2014 at 16:11 #35148Hello @jimthefish
Why read The Guardian BTL? (except for the laughs at the same names coming on every week to say they’ll never watch again)
I have a problem with Missy’s guards in this ep. They obviously didn’t notice her get out of her handcuffs, they didn’t care that Missy said she was about to kill Osgood, but most of all: they were swaying slightly side-to-side in every shot. I think they must have been drugged or something, but it wasn’t explained.
About The Guardian, though – someone posted this in reference to them: Dumb Guards
9 November 2014 at 08:25 #35118Hello @herisson
Your point in comment 35090 is a very good one, re Les Revenants and how the Afghani boy’s parents will react to having a son return from the dead many years later but at the same age as he died. Many people everywhere (mostly not here, though) have complained how dark it was in Dark Water to posit that the dead can feel pain. But a dead son returning to his family in that way? That is much, much darker.
Hello @macphisto96
I think the “known as Danny Pink” is a note since we know he real name is Rupert.
I also think you’re right, but @bluesqueakpip thinking it is a clue about Orson Pink is probably what Moffat intended. As always, the ambiguity is quite fun.
So, Missy nonchalantly zapped Seb after defining him as an AI interface.
BONKERS THEORY No 1: Osgood was also an AI interface. Her getting zapped wasn’t her actual death. I need to re-watch but she said something interesting in the beginning when we first met her in this ep.I take @pedant‘s point about “Consider Moffat’s journey from “Everybody lives” to “Osgood doesn’t”.” and that is a good point, but give me some hope we’ll see Osgood again!
8 November 2014 at 21:35 #35038Hello @miapatrick
Moffet played it really fair.
Oh no he didn’t! I can forgive him character and series arcs I don’t like. (not many) But I will never forgive him pissing on the spoilerphobe fans by inserting the Christmas preview in the middle of the closing credits. I could just imagine the evil cackling he was doing when he agreed that. (And who else’s heart leapt in thinking it might be Danny Pink at the door?)
I need to re-watch tomorrow before gathering my thoughts on this ep.
Hello @spider (and @miapatrick again)
Not just Clara’s eyes in the credits, but Jenna’s name before Peter’s. That was the kind of mis-direction that made me chuckle, since it was well known even to us spoilerphobes that Clara was going to, at some time, say that Clara Oswald never existed.
8 November 2014 at 13:22 #34990Hello @mudlark
even if it were possible to miniaturise someone to the extent that they could be inserted into a computer hard drive, all they would be able to perceive would be the hardware; they would not be able to read or make use of the information stored on it. The miniature people exploring the interior of the Dalek were in the Dalek hardware, not in its organic or cybernetic mind.
Two words: Perception filter. 😀
(You have a good point about the difference in Deep Water to Into The Dalek; however, we don’t know about ‘organic or cybernetic minds’ for what’s going on with The Nethersphere.)I like where @barnable is going with DNA and computer code. That’s an excellent bonkers theory for the chalkboard writing. Also, how you’re describing video games (also in 34963). Obviously I said I thought miniaturisation would be the answer, and you’re making my wild thoughts seem actually plausible! Thanks! 🙂
PS got a new keyboard installed on my laptop, I can do apostrophes now! Whoopee! ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
7 November 2014 at 07:43 #34911Hello @stormintheheartofthesun
Another thought, the Nethersphere even looks like a Toclafane. Small floaty sphere thing. Hmmmm
In response to that comment and your previous one, tying the similarities between what we see physically of The Nethersphere and the plot of Utopia (v good btw!), I had a search because I thought I had said something similar. It took a while (because I dont seem to have consistency in spelling toclafane/toclaphane, but I finally found it:
http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/forums/topic/robot-of-sherwood/page/2/#post-31292
I didn’t see anywhere in the Into The Dalek thread that anyone thought the antibodies looked like the Toclaphane [spelling?] from The Sound of Drums. There was talk about a resemblance to the eyes on Clara’s shirt but their movement and size were very Toclish to me.
There are two of us now to push this meme! Lets run with it. 🙂
6 November 2014 at 22:13 #34879Hello @demafromua
Interesting thoughts about self-sacrifice and suicide, and The Master. Even more interesting when it is put in context of what the original theories were about HFM and Gretchen, and how/why they were scooped up by Missy: Because they sacrificed themselves for the sake of The Doctor.
If any of this is true, it could be something SM dreamt up for this recent series, and fiendishly cleverly, drew it back to RTDs way of saying goodbye to The Master all those years ago.
Hello @barnable
So Missy could be real and have some way to physically enter the Nethersphere (miniaturization, transmat, teleport, or her own Tardis)
My vote is for miniaturisation, because of the repeated use of that method of “travel” throughout this series. And also, one of the highlighted post-its said “Miniature Clara”.
5 November 2014 at 12:53 #34782I said back on the Kill The Moon thread that I thought Clara was pregnant. And I only had a few replies, all of which were derogatory. Now I come back today, and loads of people are thinking Clara is pregnant.
“Three months” (like on the post-its) is invocative of pregnancy, when its safe to tell about it. But Clara didnt tell Danny she was pregnant at the start of this ep. She said “these words of mine are yours now”. (I love you) Why did she “give” him those words, when she explicitly told him, repeatedly, not to say those words to her, later? Im firmly in the camp of Clara Could Be Pregnant, but Im also still in the camp of @miapatrick s theory of a time-shifted Clara at the beginning of this ep. “Three months” could be the timeslip between her running (inexplicably) into his car-crash, and her turning around to see nothing. I still think the opening of this ep is key to the denouement (and that the Cybermen are a distraction from whats really going on, other than as a hook to hang the deletion of sad memories on).
@purofilion – really good detective work on costuming for The Doctor. But is it as much of a sideswipe as the colours of The Doctors bow ties in 11s reign?
@janetteb – “I guess that Missy is now the “anti-companion.” ” Oh, that is goooood.
Why are people still lamenting that Missy didnt turn out to be The Rani? Its over, unless you have fanfic to publish.
@spider – “Danny is Adric!” The maths connection is good, but please please please dont advocate for the return of Adric. Pretty please. 🙂
Enough carping from me. My theory is that Danny and everyone else in The Nethersphere is not really dead. For all the reasons people have posted about the overwhelming creepiness of telling children that cremation, and scientific experiments on dead bodies, cause pain to the person who died.
Clara has juggled her “real life” and “Tardis life” enough. Its over. She chooses real life. This is the point that a companion leaves The Doctor. My vote is for a Sara Jane style of leaving, where The Doctor dumps her (several hundred miles from home, ha ha) because he knows he cant keep taking her away from home. Oh and he also “got the call from Gallifrey” which means he must let her go. Theres nothing like a “call from Gallifrey” like having The Master re-appear in his life. (And Sarah Jane says “my Doctor” in this bit, which is a clear connection to “Clara, my Clara”).
3 November 2014 at 19:05 #34660There are ructions over in The Guardian about a potential future female Doctor. Reading the (ritually depressing) comments BTL, I had a thought which was originally prompted by someone on this site (sorry for not giving proper attribution nor making an exact quote):
The Master is now female. This is testing-the-waters time for a future female Doctor.
My vote goes with, NO. In fact, I think, casting The Master as a female is a coffin-nail on The Doctor being cast as a woman in any short-term future.
I dont have any strong feelings about The Doctor being a woman – its all about the casting and the writing, a point which I hope Peter Capaldi has locked in. “The Doctor” is a gender-neutral title. To cast a woman actress as The Doctor, if it were solely done as so-called “stunt casting” would be terrible. And if there was a change in the way the show was written, the kind of adventures being shown, simply because the lead character was played by a woman rather than a man – that would be equally horrible.
Moffat and any showrunners-at-large know these minefields. This is why I think making The Master a woman is as far as they can go in todays world of instant Twatter “OMG”-ness.
2 November 2014 at 23:52 #34596@ everyone -Im re-watching The Mind Robber tonight, and just came across this gold Zoe quote:
You see, they dont want us to find a way out, only a way in.
Im probably doing too much of my namesake but I still think that there are stellar comparisons between The Mind Robber and the entirety of this Peter Capaldi series. Its all been about the way in. How to get Clara (and The Doctor) into the Nethersphere, and next to Missy (The Master). Clara adores fairytales (similar to Amy loving the Romans via her schoolbook). Clara wanted to meet Robin Hood. The Big Bad of her school was a Sarah Jane Adventures monster (she must have watched one or two of those programmes). Clara meets and falls in love with a “damaged” soldier boy. (Thats a bit icky because a female character trying to “repair” a “damaged” male character is a bit retro to say the least).
But, Danny is The Way In. To the Nethersphere. So Missy has been monitoring Clara, trying to get her in. Via Danny. Could Missy be responsible for the death of the Afghani boy that Danny still tears up when he remembers?
And what does that mean to Danny Pink’s history, that he didn’t actually cause a child’s death. I think that is what we will see in the finale. Time being re-written. What/who does Danny Pink become, when that awful death is no longer on his conscience? How does that change his interactions with Clara – and her insistence on Danny NOT saying “I love you” in either of their two telephone calls?
2 November 2014 at 23:00 #34585As BBCBackHome said:
ARE YOU A FAMILY LIVING WITH SEVERAL GENERATIONS ALL UNDER ONE ROOF?
Some people with new avatars appear to have several people living all under one skull.
@fatmaninabox – LOL at Conchita Wurst!
2 November 2014 at 22:52 #34582You two seem to be very knowledgeable about the whole of Doctor Who history.
Im re-watching The Mind Robber this evening and I thought I saw some parallels with this series, and its arc and details. Obviously, that there is a (potential) dream world, and that people see what they want to see / what they expect to see. Of course, there is “a Master” controlling all of it in both cases, who is watching events via TV screens (the Ipads of their time). The male companion “dies” and becomes someone else (an acting availability problem with the original). Not to mention the fairytale story elements in both.
Do either of you see similar parallels? Im quite interested to hear your feedback. (and everyone else here of course. Youre all much more erudite than I am!)
2 November 2014 at 22:36 #34577@glenisterm – yeah, Im not really au fait with that whole “blackmail” scene. But as we subsequently learnt, it was Claras dream state so the fact it doesnt make a whole lot of sense can be laid at the door of “whose dreams make all that much sense anyway?”.
Ive said before I think this series is suitable for a SJA reboot (ducking potential brickbats when I did that) so I agree, that is a debate topic. The monsters have generally been SJA-stylee and the concepts could be argued are suitable for the tweenies. But they (the concepts) can also be argued that they are much deeper and richer – and scarier – than that.
Lots of fairytale influences = kind of like CBBC. But with adult overtones = what Doctor Who always was about. Something for the whole family.
2 November 2014 at 19:49 #34557Hello @phileasf
I also suspect much of what Danny and, presumably, other dead people are being told is a lie, intended to persuade them to allow their personalities to be deleted.
Your post is one of the reasons why I think this site is so wonderful. Deeply thoughtful, contextual (bringing in PK Dicks “Ubik” and also SMs “Coupling” is Master-ful, sorry for the pun), and detailed. The call-back to Donna in The Library with the abrupt scene-cuts is also a good call. That camera-turn in the beginning of Dark Water really grated on me — unless it was deliberate. None of it is real, except in Claras mind.
I think I posted a while ago that I thought Clara was pregnant. In the execrable Moon ep, she looked too shocked at thinking about future generations. Like it finally hit her that her children would have to live with the world that was left by her own actions.
@scaryb, those phone calls are related, Im sure of it. The two in this ep are obviously linked thematically, but you reminded me of Clara Primes original contact with The Doctor in Bells of SJ. We have been showered with eyes, and faces, and phone calls … what links these for grand theories about the finale?
I for one will be disappointed if “technology wins the day”. Its been set up with the Steve Jobs line in this ep and the Ipad references with Missy. Its also been set up for “true love wins the day” which could be good for the kiddies but not up to SMs standard I dont think. It should be deeper.
Ill take a punt and say that past mistakes cant be corrected – except messily. That Afghani boy will always die because Danny did what he did in the heat of war. Danny will always die because Missy threw a car in his path. Clara will always die because she went too far in demanding of The Doctor that he change history just for her love-life.
Or … there might be a more uplifting theme. People who die, even after death, still have the agency to be “better”. Its not over when you die. You can still choose not to “Delete”, because feeling emotions is part and parcel of the human existence. Even after death.
Erm, Im going for the “emotions are good” angle, after having wrote that. Past mistakes cant be corrected – but people can still have love even after making mistakes and seeing loved ones making mistakes.
Oh, and the Cybermen are totally incidental to the two-parters conclusion. Just my suspicion. Except as a mirror of “no-emotion” to the ultimate theme.
2 November 2014 at 19:11 #34554Hello @sarahjo – please do introduce yourself in the On The Sofa thread. I did so myself when I joined, and found people here quite likeable in their responses. You can go into more detail about your dislike of the Clara character, as well as your viewing history of DW, over there.
Do you have specific episode-related issues about Clara in Dark Water? I agree with you that it is a huge bonus having Peter Capaldi as The Doctor – he has been a revelation, a massive change from recent casting, but he is also incorporating so much of so many previous Doctors — but I think Claras character is key to this current series. The storybook elements, the focus on eyes and faces, what can be seen (or not seen except from the corner of ones eyes), and the Danny character is introducing a kind of storybook boyfriend (unerringly supportive but with his own dark past), it all seems that this series really is all about the companion.
We know so much about The Doctor, but we have also been reminded of his insecurities (“Am I a good man?”). It would be interesting to debate with you about your statement that PC is “playing second fiddle” somewhere other than a discussion about this particular ep.
2 November 2014 at 13:30 #34523Before all of that … before all of the stuff that I did wrong
@janetteb and @miapatrick
Thats the dialogue key to @miapatrick‘s theory, I believe. Clara is going to do something “wrong” next week, something which endangers Danny instead of saving him. And she’s calling him from the future, seemingly wracked with guilt. Which means, of course, that she knows hes about to die. So why the surprise when he drops the phone?
Things to say … not all of them good.
Im probably over-obsessed with the initial phone call, but I keep replaying it because I think it holds the key to the story. And I just noticed in the post-its that one is labelled “Truth” but thats not the one Clara pulls. Instead she grabs “Just SAY it”.
Clara cant tell Danny the Truth. Even now, even when supposedly shes trying to stop his death from happening, keep him on the phone talking (well, listening, because she keeps saying “shut up”), she isnt telling him the Truth. She grabs the “Just SAY it” post-it and blurts out “I love you”. And it might be clever editing, but she runs into the scene of Dannys accident (how did she know where he was hit by that car?), and then the camera turns and there is nothing there. Whilst a background voice starts saying “By now Im sure youve heard the rumours” …
The fairytale element is quite strong this series. And the boy-meets-girl/boy-cops-it storyline is something a (young) girl might get very sentimental over. And The Doctor in this ep made a point of talking about how much older Clara looks since “Danny died”. Is she over fairytales now?
Im with previous commenters saying that Claras gran doesnt look quite all that real, nor are any of Claras reactions to her gran all that real. Yes, we all deal with grief differently. But there is something decidedly “off” about that scene. Gran says “Who calls you?” in a weird way, especially since Clara was apparently calling The Doctor and waiting for him to pick up. Gran met (the previous incarnation of) The Doctor but has a strange head turn at hearing 12s voice on the phone.
The prologue will tell us everything about the ending. Im nailing my colours to the mast on that.
2 November 2014 at 11:49 #34514Now that the season plot arc seems to be all about stealing souls to power Cybermen
Hello @badwulf – but wasnt the point of the dark water that it contained/only showed actual organic material? The bones, bodies – but not souls. So I agree with people who think that Danny isnt dead, and that the Nethersphere contains people who arent actually dead.
Which means, the Afghan boy that Danny thinks he killed isnt dead, either. Are they all teleported?
Its been discussed that Missy was building an army and certainly the people weve seen “snatched” in this series were in some way involved with The Doctor, in sacrificing themselves for his life. Except the poor policeman who was just (seemingly) randomly killed, but then he got processed by Seb and not by Missy. Danny was also processed by Seb and not Missy. Danny did not, so far as we have seen, sacrifice himself for The Doctor.
Was it @miapatrick who thought the Clara at the beginning was an out-of-time Clara? I think thats a great theory. The post-it notes were reminders of … what? To help her keep the phone call on track? What was “shut up shut up shut up” all about if not someone who is trying to work to a script and remember the important things to say? She took the post-it that said “Just SAY it”. Of all the reminders, why that one? (“Danny – Ill never say those words, not to anyone else – EVER”.) Clara says “Those words from me are yours now”. (I love you)
There is a link between that first phone call and the one in Missys world, where she kept telling Danny *not* to say “I love you”.
I suspect some timey-wimey is going to happen in the conclusion, perhaps because Clara convinced The Doctor to “change time” and things have got a bit out of kilter because of that. Also miniaturisation will feature, because of the physical size of the Nethersphere erm sphere, and also because one of the post-its said “Miniature Clara”.
5 October 2014 at 00:10 #32983It seemed to go against the Doctor’s past philosophy (that immorality was for fruitloops, and self interested people) full stop.
Is that “immortality”?
Although immorality being for fruitloops and self interested people is also a good reading. 😉
4 October 2014 at 22:11 #32970Is it OK to say here that I think this ep and the last one were really Sarah Jane Adventures eps?
The monsters were rubbish (in The Caretaker, they were Silurians On Badly Drawn Wheels; here, they were spiders which all children fear). The tension factor just wasnt there in either ep for me. It was nice to see Clara facing off against the Doctor, and left to her own devices to control what happens. But that felt a bit like the writers saying that the wimmen need to have more control over events. The [older] female astronaut, the female teacher, the female student? Was is just me who saw them slo-mo running and thought, sigh?
There is definitely a clash building between Clara and her Real Life and the Tardis Life. I dont watch Next Week guff so I will be reading this thread with caution. But there appears to be a choice that Clara needs to make, soon, and I got the feeling that Clara might be pregnant from the way she looked when the character Hermione Norris played talked about her children / grandchildren.
Which would be sad. Why is it that TV writers think that young women must all get pregnant as a story arc? Thats soap land. Couldnt Clara just decide that the danger of life with the Doctor – and the danger shes putting her students through, in the guise of Courtney – isnt what she wants any more? The danger of Real Life, making the mortgage and finding a plumber and fixing light bulbs is something I guess Amy Pond already did. What else can Clara do, except get pregnant (with a child that doesnt have a Time Head??)?
4 October 2014 at 21:24 #32959Did anyone notice an anti-abortion vibe to that episode, or am I imagining things?
Interesting. No, I didnt, but Im thinking Clara and Danny have got more jiggy than the programme has let us into, and Clara is seriously worried / thinking about her [potential] children.
But thats just on first watch. Have to watch again, natch. Off to the Red Button and Iplayer
21 September 2014 at 01:06 #32235Its just too effing late but I saw @bluesqueakpip s comment when logging out.
Clara did have her memory wiped in another Stephen Thompson script – Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS
I wondered why Clara was so moved by Psi saying he had no family or friends to remember, and how he had deleted them for their own safety. I need to go to bed and re-watch this ep tomorrow. But I will focus on that moment because I think it is quite important to the arc. My immediate thought was that Clara was thinking of Danny (Rupert / etc) but perhaps she was thinking of her mother who died? Or her father and step-mother? Who would Clara see when she saw her life flashing in front of her eyes? I think the Doctor, and all of his lives that she tumbled into. But you have made me remember that her memory was wiped once before, explicitly (and implicitly because shes not supposed to remember being The Impossible Girl).
Hello @craig
So many “criminals” to ponder.
21 September 2014 at 00:36 #32232Aggghhh, was working late tonight so just watched the ep and the Extra. I will definitely watch again tomorrow.
This was fantastic. I liked it so much better than Listen.
Hello @bluesqueakpip
So, now we know how Gretchen ended up in ‘Heaven’. That teleport, with scream, is exactly the same effect. She didn’t die; she was teleported.
Yes, yes, yes, and yes again.
Hello @scaryb
a callback to Hide again … with lonely monsters being really starcrossed lovers, Rings of Akhaten -”eat my memories”.
I got both of those, too. (two? 🙂 )
Hello @wolfweed
I love that picture of Keely Hawes in her old lady makeup. And I want to pause and look at the criminals Psi was downloading. A gold mine of characters and theorising potential.
Hello @idiotsavon
“Everything has a price tag I think you’ll find” (What about the Doctor’s new regeneration cycle?)
What a good question. I also noticed so much emphasis on eyes in this ep so I think @bluesqueakpip was right a few eps ago saying that this series is all about eyes.
Hello @serahni
it’s getting a bit old watching the many ways he pleads with Clara to drop her plans and go with him. I guess most companions in the past have traveled with him full-time and it’s being made very obvious that Clara is trying to have a normal life running parallel to her extraordinary one.
Its also feeling a bit pushy on the whole “hes not her boyfriend” thing. I had hoped they got that out of the way already. The Doctor is still needy for companionship, though. After his lotus sitting on the Tardis in Listen, and its exploration of his loneliness and childhood fears (widened out to a general humankind fear expressed in a particular nightmare) it feels OK that he is portrayed as someone who is needy. But he shouldnt be competing with Claras dates, I agree with you.
16 September 2014 at 14:27 #31880Not sure if this belongs here or in TV Shows.
Last nights Only Connect had a team called the Gallifreyans (they met on “the worlds largest Doctor Who site”).
Even better, a young man on the other team was called Vyvyan.
14 September 2014 at 20:04 #31680The ep Midnight did the knocking on the door horror so much better. Why bring it back in such a diluted form?
Im quoting myself here. Re-watching Midnight reminds me of the full horror of that ep. Yes, the knocking on the door was frightening because there wasnt supposed to be anyone out there. (but it still got in) Repeated here in Listen, although this time the Doctor made it easier by unlocking the door.
But Midnight told much greater truths about the human condition. Namely how we as people are likely to turn on each other when confused and frightened. Listen kept to a single and much narrower truth, that we are all afraid of whats under the bed.
Having written that, I think that Listen is still the more child-friendly story of the two. Midnight was probably too “adult” in its concepts for children. Seeing adults flail and blame each other and be totally unable to deal with a fright that is beyond their ken would be horrible for children, who still think adults know more and rely on them being capable of dealing with monsters.
Or Listen, which teaches children that turning your back on your fears (leaving the space to acknowledge that the monsters might be more frightened of you than you are of them, like spiders) is better.
14 September 2014 at 19:26 #31673From the first page
A break from the sofa and Doctor Who. Somewhere for real life, non-Doctor chat including news, politics, sport etc. Basically a place of a more adult nature.
Ohhhhh nooooo, Scottish independence debates here, too. I guess it was inevitable with the focus on Twelves Scottishness in DW.
Those who don’t want that, please avoid.
Well I was up for “a more adult nature” heh-heh-heh but obviously I mis-read the brief! Will dutifully avoid now.
14 September 2014 at 19:15 #31669Ive watched this ep twice now and hesitated to comment here. Because I did not have the same overwhelmingly positive reaction to it that almost everyone else here has. I can say, the many posts about Listen have made me alter (slightly) my thoughts. But only slightly. Its nothing like Blink, an episode with such overwhelming tension of imminent danger and which still scares the pants off me even though I know exactly what happens. Ditto Midnight.
From the moments in the introduction where the same hand leapt out from under the bed in 3 different situations – a young and female hand – I knew there was a Clara element to be uncovered. So that reveal wasn’t very interesting to me. (Although I have to say that the look on Jennas face when she realised just exactly what she had done in that instinctive instant in the barn, was exactly right.)
The call-back to Hide in meeting a future descendant of current protagonists was unimaginative to me. And Im sorely disappointed to have travelled back and forth in Danny Pinks timeline. Why can’t an additional (putative) companion just be, a regular person? Even after all the guff about Clara being The Impossible Girl, why cant she now just be a Companion, rather than someone who has set alight in the young Doctors mind a theory which he will carry for two thousand years?
The ep Midnight did the knocking on the door horror so much better. Why bring it back in such a diluted form?
The scary childrens home was so much more scary with Eleven and Amy. Why bring it back in such a diluted form?
Bringing the families of the companions straight to the fore has been a strong element of post 2005 Doctor Who. After so much of Steven Moffat’s reign at the top, we seem to be narrowing the focus to children who have lost their family. Is this supposed to mean that we will discover that the Doctor was an orphan, or otherwise lost his family at a young age?
Im not dismissive of Listen entirely. Although I was shocked at Twelves “do what you are told!” command to Clara, it was nicely rounded off by her telling him the same thing later. And both of them did what they were commanded to do. That speaks of an underlying, fundamental trust between the characters. When you really need someone to do something important, theyll do it because they trust you implicitly.
12 September 2014 at 22:37 #31495Hello @wolfweed
I thought I was the master of detail but I bow to you in your awesomeness.
It looks as though you’re letting go
And if it’s real
Well I don’t want to knowPlease dont spoil me with anything about this series in the future. But the finger-shush of that image seems to indicate that Clara might be on her way out.
PLEASE OH YE GODS OF DW. Dont leave Clara on the scrapheap of “whooyah I found a hunky man and now Im complete and can stop travelling with the Doctor.”
Samuel Anderson provides a distinct distraction but a proper modern DW companion wouldnt have her head turned so easily. I’m hoping for a showdown of soldier v non-soldier and everything that confrontation means [could mean] in todays world. Man With Spoon who refuses to fall back on weaponry more fatal than expertly-wielded silverware, even after The Time War — versus — Man Who Has Seen Modern Earth Warfare and can still cry in front of children about the non-combatants he unfortunately killed.
12 September 2014 at 22:19 #31492Hello @brewski
I’m sticking with the fact that Arcadia is a Greek name for Utopia = Arcadia
… And Im sticking with my theory that the antibodies in Into The Dalek looked and moved an awful lot like the Toklafane in the John Simm Master trilogy (first part of which was called Utopia).
Moffat is playing a lot of cards shown in many previous DW series [Blink (dont) / Breathe (dont) ] and Im trying to work out a theory about how the Toklafane — human beings from the far future, looking for their own Utopia [aka Promised Land] — could end up being the white blood cells in a Dalek casing.
I am totally in awe of and jealous of those who caught the missing coat “continuity error”.
Dont be. Im very tedious to be around in person. 😉
12 September 2014 at 21:53 #3148912 September 2014 at 20:41 #31486Hello @wolfweed
Im not sure anyone can trump an orangutan in a bikini top, with a cape and pleated satin trousers (not to mention that quite obvious posture of — (Hello, Im Here, and Wondrously Outre, and You are Less than the Shadow of My Fabulous Manhood), — but —
Orangutans with spoons are still to be found in a family-friendly image world.
Although this is my personal Fail at not being able to best your image.
12 September 2014 at 17:46 #31477Hello @brewski
All this talk of nit-picking is making me feel slightly better for being a bit OCD about the open-naw-now-its-shut-nope-now-its-open Tardis door business at the beginning of Robot of Sherwood.
Unlike @mudlark, I cannot promise to refrain from picking at such nits in future, sadly. Im the perennial Sees The Trees But Misses The Whole Damned Forest person. In my defense, Im hoping that one of my detail-oriented Gotchas will bear as much fruit as my “hunh, what happened to the Doctors coat?” question back in Elevens day with the Weeping Angels. It meant so much to me and no-one was as concerned as I was, at the time. “Continuity error” they all claimed. Well, HAH I say to all of them now. 😀
Hello @pedant
Good catch / remembering on Claras ability to discern sadness in someone she has just met.
Hello @whisht
As much as I hope there isn’t some big religious REVEAL in the current seasons arc, you have dragged me over to your Ark-shaped corner. 😉 Im still thinking Promised Land = Gallifrey in some way though. And that Missy / Miss-C / Miss-E / ooh-err Misstressy is not a Big Bad at all, shes just being drawn that way right now.
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