Forum Replies Created
17 October 2015 at 22:08 #44952
I’m 8 minutes from the end of the episode but I’ve paused it to just voice my theory on those final 8 minutes. Please Please Please let her be Jenny, it would fit so perfectly! (I’ll do a full review in a few minutes but it’s a great episode so far)14 October 2015 at 02:40 #44746
@pedant A – Good use of the word “mean”
B – 4 goals in 6 for England would suggest otherwise14 October 2015 at 02:27 #4474314 October 2015 at 02:10 #44741
That awkward moment where you realise you still haven’t properly introduced yourself after nearly a month of posting because you didn’t know of the existence of this thread. Time to rectify that I think!
I’m Ben, and I’m from SE England, though having just started Uni I’m in S Wales. As somebody who has only seen AG Who (I don’t count catching an occasional oldie as having seen it) my favourite Doctor would have to be Eccleston, though Capaldi is fast catching him. I like all of them though and don’t think that any of the series AG have had that many problems. My favourite companion is without a doubt Donna, no love sub-plot, just two friends traveling the galaxy together.
Interests wise I’m just a standard teenager. I’m down for pretty much any genre of music, though artists that mash together two things, be it two genres, two songs or a genre with something else entirely (yes that third one is a nod towards Chameleon Circuit). Similarly, I like most sport, Football especially (my hometown club of Maidstone United and Spurs, in case you’re wondering what teams). And I have a great interest in mythology, especially Greek.
Can’t think of anything else to say, but I’m sure most of you know me already due to the belatedness of me finding this thread. Hi!!!!14 October 2015 at 01:24 #44739
Wow that took a lot of catching up!!! Shouldn’t have let myself get over 3 pages behind. So much that I hadn’t thought of has been raised to me now though so it’s all good. (I can’t remember who posted what on the prior pages so apologies)
re: Clara –> Nethersphere. I feel like this is a strong bit of bonkerising, especially considering the discussion on souls. Would certainly fit well into an arc where Missy is trying to break CapDoc and remove everyone other than him/her from CapDoc’s life.
re: River/Clara connection. Again good thinking, I certainly didn’t notice it in that way but now that it’s been mentioned I can see where you’re coming from. The one thing that’s stopping me wholeheartedly buying into this is the CAL=Clara theory, which now that I’m typing strikes me as compatible with the Nethersphere theory as they both exist in largely similar ways, and would explain why both River and Missy seem so closely linked to Clara.
re: Dawn Treader picture not mentioned (I think that was @bluesqueakpip). I highly doubt that we would have been given it if it wasn’t important, hich means it’s part of the series arc. As I mentioned a few days ago, the snake card in Tarot from what I can tell represents rebirth of some sort, and if that is supposed to be a woman in the mouth it could be a hint at Timelord!Clara. she was still inside the Dalek when the regen energy came through after all (though of course it could refer to Missy or River, or even another female timelord like Jenny).
So that’s 4 theories on Clara in the same thread, without even mentioning the Claricles or the Dalek nanogenes and her seeming inevitable forthcoming doom, nor have I touched on the discussion of her becoming a Psuedo-Doctor almost and the possibilities that could bring. This is making me very intrigued to see who is right, if any of us are.
Also, just one last thing
@mirime re: Bran means Raven ……..please excuse me whilst I shake my fist at George R R Martin.12 October 2015 at 07:38 #4458912 October 2015 at 06:20 #44582
Scrap that, it could be another pointer to the Tarot theory. I found nothing in a quick search on any correlation between Snakes and Arthur and so looked up what it means in Tarot. It made for some interesting reading:
Snake symbol meanings deal with renewal, rebirth and development primarily because they shed their skin during each cycle in growth. Snakes are also cold-blooded which means they depend on their environment for their body temperature. This is a symbolic message that we must be adaptive, flexible and adjust as best we can to our circumstances. When the snake slithers across the cards into our consciousness way may need to ask ourselves if we need to shed a part of ourselves to allow further growth, or perhaps we need to be a little more flexible in situations at work or home.
Rebirth? Shedding skin? That points to one thing and one thing only in the Whoniverse and that is Timelords. With Timelords you get Gallifrey, Missy is off making a plan for something, and the seed of how Gallifrey is back has already been left in “Death In Heaven” and “The Magician’s Apprentice”, you just need to read between the lines. Gallifrey is back and there is nothing anybody can do about it.12 October 2015 at 06:07 #44579
@craig was that yet another snake I saw in the trailer? Certainly seem to be racking them up, what with Colony Sarff and the Dawn Treader painting, might have to look to see if there are any serpents in Arthurian legend and the symbolistic meaning of one11 October 2015 at 09:58 #44480
I’m going to be honest, this wasn’t my favourite episode, I much preferred the first part. There was far too much breaking the fourth wall and far too little Fisher King action for my liking.
There were some great touches though, I loved the bit with Cass and Moran, I guarantee that it will have had many children hiding, and at the same time it will have inspired some deaf people, reminding them that they aren’t “Lame ducks”. A truly inspired scene.
The use of Bennett to show Clara’s insecurities and to bring hope into the darkness in the shape of Cass and Lunn was perfect also. It is clear that Clara is still learning to cope without Danny but now she’s able to capture that pain and use it to help others.
@phaseshift @miapatrick @everyone else intrigued, I feel like the “Minister for War” mention is definitely not a throwaway, and like you said Mia, it very much reminds me of the “new prime minister of England”. Maybe a nod to somebody’s plans come the end of the series?
All in all an okay episode, but not one I’m going to be raving about.9 October 2015 at 11:39 #44368
@mudlark you wouldn’t expect them to fall under the songbird grouping, but they do. Ravens belong to the family of crows, and they are songbirds despite common beliefs (which are mainly rooted from their seeming inability to sing). Corvids make horrible sounds, but still fall under the larger branching term, so Ravens are songbirds.9 October 2015 at 00:50 #44346
And in reference to the episode, I wonder if anybody else has noticed the possible hint as to who is in the box? I can’t remember the quote, but it’s something about the ghosts being unable to pick up wooden items. This smells so much like a hint that it is CapDoc inside it that it’s unbelievable.9 October 2015 at 00:47 #44345
Mega realisation!!!! (and this time there definitely can’t be any geographical faux pas’)
Clara’s mother’s maiden name = Ravenwood
Ravens = SONG birds
Wood –> “the only water in the forest is RIVER”
River is in some way Clara’s mother, whether it be as a biological mother, or as I have been convinced off for well over a year now, her adoptive mother. I’ve found another clue that Clara = CAL @kharis6 October 2015 at 16:25 #44192
@bluesqueakpip re:Welsh version of Arthurian Legend; Okay that makes a lot of sense, and it’s definitely a Moffat thing to do, I don’t know why I didn’t think of that before6 October 2015 at 14:42 #44181
Darn it, i thought i might have something then6 October 2015 at 13:40 #44176
@bluesqueakpip ah man, not even in a wibbly-wobbly spacey-wacey way, like how the Daleks moved all the planets in “Turn Left/Journey’s End”???6 October 2015 at 12:53 #44174
Dark. Sword. Forsaken. Temple.
Darksword. Forsaken Temple.????
Since I first heard the words my mind has been drawn to one thing and one thing only. Clarent, the sword which killed King Arthur, ie a Darksword. Considering the large amount of references to Arthurian legend, and the fact they are under a lake, it’s seemed like a certainty to me. And it just so happens that I’ve found a “Forsaken Temple” in Arthurian Legend, with equally strong links to Arthur’s death. Clarent is the murder weapon, Glastonbury Abbey claims to be the resting place. It makes complete sense. Glastonbury has long been considered to be Avalon, which has been referenced by the BBC in the past, and thus putting it under is not strange. Not only that, but Glastonbury Tor is considered to be a perfect place for a Sun Temple, and has the ruins of St Michael’s Church on it, the place of the execution of the last Abbot of the Abbey.
And if you do not believe that the church/abbey really fit for being a temple but agree that Glastonbury is the right region I offer you this quote:
This temple of nature is like the “chapel” that is not despoiled. “Never was that chapel ravaged, nor did it fall into disrepair, but remained as untouched thereafter as before, and so still stands.”
But there is a nuclear reactor there. A Nuclear reactor that still uses Fission, even though I am sure by 2119 the human race will have learnt how to use Nuclear Fusion. The temple of nature will have been despoiled.5 October 2015 at 23:58 #44151
@fivefaces this is probably of irrelevance, but remember that in “The End Of Time” Tennant did the same to hide the TARDIS from The Master, shift it in time by a split second5 October 2015 at 18:56 #44122
@lisa I’m so glad I’m not imagining Clarent, I was beginning to think I was misremembering Arthurian legend5 October 2015 at 08:04 #44092
I still think that Excalibur is a semi red herring and it will instead be its twin, the coward’s blade, the darksword, Clarent. It just links in so well with the Claricle theory as well that i’m certain of it.4 October 2015 at 06:11 #44010
Great episode, loved the cliffhanger.
@bluesqueakpip i knew someone else would pick up on the reason Lunn wasn’t killed, especially since they always pause for a little bit to analysis their prey before killing, must be them checking to see whether the chant is in the mind yet.
When I heard the chant I thought of one thing immediately. It isn’t necessarily, Dark. Sword. What if it’s Darksword? One of my favourite series of books is The Secrets of the Immortal: Nicholas Flamel series, and it contains the 4 swords of power: Durendal, Joyeuse, Excalibur, and though it is more commonly known as the Coward’s blade, Clarent is sometimes also referred to as the Darksword. Not only that but Clarent sounds alarmingly similar to Clara, and being the blade to have slain Arthur, is inextricably linked to Arthurian legend.1 October 2015 at 13:53 #43890
One point that none of us had thought of but I’ve just seen brought up in the comment section of Emergency Awesome’s review of TWF is very interesting. Clara was still in the Dalek when the regen energy was sent. What effect will it have had on her or the nanogenes?30 September 2015 at 23:58 #4386730 September 2015 at 15:19 #43850
@mudlark and anyone else interested. I ended up putting it on the standard spoiler thread30 September 2015 at 15:15 #43848
Posting in here because I’m not sure whether it counts as Spoilers or not, but I’ve had a theory about Clara based on the Abbey Road promo picture. So in the TWF thread there is a lot of theorising about the dalek nanogenes working in Clara’s brain and the fact CapDoc echoed Ten with the “I’m so sorry” suggesting that he can’t save Clara. But in TMA there are hints he already knows about her fate, and that’s before she goes into the Dalek
Now flashback to the picture. The theory goes that it is a copy of the abbey Road album cover, which many Conspiracy theorists say reveals the death and replacement of Paul McCartney, and thus foreshadows Clara’s death. But what if she’s already dead? The Abbey Road cover supposedly has a “fake” McCartney on it, so what if the clara we’re currently watching is a “fake”, ie a Claricle? I know I’m not the first to suggest this, but I might have made some more links to it now.
Firstly, the “29 IF” Reg plate. what is the point in having that if she isn’t already dead? If she dies at the end of the series then Clara makes it to 29. Therefore she must either die early in the series or already be dead.
Next, the choice to make the other two members of the publicity shoot Daleks. This can’t be a coincidence. Moffat doesn’t do coincidences. Sure, it was released on the morning of TMA, but why choose the Daleks? Surely that would be a spoiler that they had returned? Why not someone else that was in the episode? Yes that rule would rule out Missy and Davros, but there were other available characters. Bors, Kate, The sisterhood of Karn, The TARDIS etc. No this was a deliberate decision, highlighted even more by the Oswin Claricle and Missy putting her inside one in TWF.
Third, we need to look at the nanogenes themselves. This is where Asylum of the Daleks becomes very important. Not just because it’s the first time we see Clara, but because of how much we learn about the nanogenes. We learn that they cannot be stopped, but they can be slowed (see Eleven’s explanation that Love helps to slow down how quickly they take effect). Presumably that is how the Oswin Claricle is able to fight the urge to Exterminate the Doctor: her love of humanity. She is still possibly succumbing to the nanogenes, responsible for her hallucinating mayhaps, but she fights them back very well. This ability to fight them back is shown again in The Name of The Doctor, when Tasha Lem is able to fight back her not-so-human dalekness. Now the version of Clara we are currently seeing has nanogenes floating around her head, trying to convert her. I would hypothesise that her love of travelling with the Doctor could allow her to fight them back until the end of the series, but ultimately she is doomed.
Also how rare is it for River to be wrong? Very. River warned Clara against entering The Doctor’s timestream, saying it would kill her. It is very feasible that the real Clara died and in doing so created all her Claricles.
One last thing. The ship that the Oswin Claricle was on was called Alaska. A ship called Alaska crashing into a snow-covered planet? That seems far too neat to me and just smells of being pre-planned.
My theory: By the end of the series, this version of Clara will nearly have turned Dalek. Rather than letting her die a rubbish death (note how upset she was at the original way Danny died), CapDoc will wipe her memory, then leave her in time and space somewhere with an application form to join the SS Alaska. This is the Oswin Claricle.30 September 2015 at 14:01 #4384430 September 2015 at 13:08 #43842
I have a theory, but it relies on the promo picture released on the 19th with the possible easter eggs, so I don’t know whether it counts as spoilers or not28 September 2015 at 01:45 #4365428 September 2015 at 00:39 #43648
@kharis Hostile Action Displacement System, it’s the name for what the TARDIS did to survive28 September 2015 at 00:34 #4364628 September 2015 at 00:32 #43644
I think someone predicted the use of HADS on the TMA thread, I can’t remember who though28 September 2015 at 00:28 #4364227 September 2015 at 23:22 #43631
@bluesqueakpip SitL = Silence in the Library, FotD = Forest of the Dead, the Vashta Nerada eps27 September 2015 at 22:52 #43626
@kharis the only reason I know which episode is which is because SitL’s cliffhanger gave me the creeps, I couldn’t sleep for weeks! They are probably the best two episodes I’ve seen, even if I was scared shitless27 September 2015 at 22:44 #4362127 September 2015 at 21:36 #43605
Missed one from the list, who I’m still annoyed has only been used once:
S4 – Jenny27 September 2015 at 20:49 #43601
@mudlark I feel like the gradual increase in usage of hybrids is the one thing that both RTD and SM have in common. I mean all you need to do is look at how much the idea has been used:
S1 – Bad Wolf (okay not a proper hybrid, but she sees all of time and space, and is far more powerful than anything else)
S2 – Human/Cybermen
S3 – Human/Dalek, Toclafane
S4 – DoctorDonna, first use of River
Specials – Master/Human
S5 – River (still unrevealed), Centurion!Rory
S6 – River revealed
S7 – new attempt at Human/Dalek, Clara (only relevant if Human/Timelord hybrid or ends up in a Dalek when she dies or dies because of TWF)
S8 – new take on Human/Cybermen
S9 – Timelord/Dalek hybrid created27 September 2015 at 02:06 #4350226 September 2015 at 22:17 #43478
Am I the only one that doesn’t like the idea of no screwdriver? Sonic Sunglasses just sounds far too cheesy for my liking.
I cannot praise the acting enough. Bleach, Coleman, Gomez and Capaldi over the two-parter have given a masterclass in how to make captivating TV with a small ensemble. The Davros/Doctor scenes had me on the edge of my seat, I truly thought this would be the redemption of Davros. and then the contrast of that with the humour the Missy/Clara scenes brang. And then the parallels with Asylum, especially when Clara came round the corner at the end, because it looks like they might have used the same set, only cleaner. I feel like I need to sit down for a bit and just let the perfection sink in to my mind.26 September 2015 at 18:56 #43441
Looking ahead to TWF, does anyone know how long after it airs it will be on iPlayer? can’t watch it live because I don’t as of yet have a TV licence (only just started at uni, other more important things first). Thanks all in advance.25 September 2015 at 00:13 #43388
To date the only ep that has ever made me scared. Creepy shadow Zombies, a dark suspenseful setting normally associated with calmness, seeing Donna’s face on the statue with the whole “Donna Noble has left the Library. Donna Noble has been saved”, I couldn’t sleep for weeks. a perfect villain, and for once they only have one episode so that fear isn’t lessened.24 September 2015 at 23:13 #43386
@kharis definitely agree with you on the CAL=Clara theory! Been thinking it since pre-regen. Looks more likely now that there is the announcement about ———- in the Xmas special. Had a thought whilst reading this thread that helps that theory as well: In TMA CapDoc is looking for a bookstore at the start. Thinking rationally, you’d link that to Sally Sparrow and the Weeping Angels, especially as Blink was SM’s first ep, but the exact wording is niggling me. Bookstore. We’re British, we say bookshop. So if not a shop, why not somewhere that books are stored, like for instance a Library.24 September 2015 at 19:18 #43365
@brewski you might still have something. Both exterminations were the standard blue light + skeleton, immediately followed by a red flash. The colour the vortex manipulators made earlier when they jumped to the Doctor? A red flash. Not to mention the fact that both of them still have the ones on their arms and I wouldn’t put it past Missy to have added a telepathic use option on hers.
@idiootsavon love your idea about the magician being the Doctor with Davros as his apprentice, adds more meaning to Davros getting the screwdriver: the magician’s wand.
Re – the Confession Dial: that has been tampered with a lot I reckon. not only is there the gap, which I agree was purposefully pointed towards Clara, but if you look just to the right of the gap you see it isn’t perfect circles. One of the bits is out of position. any ideas as to what that could mean?24 September 2015 at 17:57 #43359
right well i’m about to have my first rewatch, I shall report back later21 September 2015 at 20:52 #43167
Okay now I’m putting on my tin foil hat, bear with me.
So when the episode had literally just started I thought the handmines were Weeping Angels. it wasn’t until I saw the eye on the hand that I realised that they were not. However, I’ve been thinking: What if this is when they were created? True they are said to have been around since the beginning of time, and the Thousand Year War is approximated to have been 450-1450AD, but this is SM we’re talking about. He’s prone to occasional continuity errors. Also, it might not even be a continuity error, as I show now explain.
Here’s my theory:
Doctor tries to Exterminate Davros, but Davros has screwdriver (I can’t remember if he’d picked it up already). Explosion of energy akin to the one in HP, causes Davros to become like he is now aesthetically, would do the same to the Doctor but for his Gallifreyan healing powers, remaining energy latches on to handmines.
Energy from Screwdriver (which includes Time Lord DNA, causing the near indestructibility of the Angels, plus as Missy showed already in the episode, the ability to control time/forced quantum lock defence mechanism)
The blast also has the side effect of sending all of them back in time, to the birth of Skaro.
Remember this is my in foil hat theory guys21 September 2015 at 18:55 #43160
@fatmaninabox great spot on it being a 2005 Dalek that he’s using. But as has been pointed out there is a lack of daleks from the new dalek paradigm, not to mention I am certain that when he created them Davros would have installed a failsafe to prevent them firing on him. So how could it be? I think SM’s train of thought is a bit RUSTY.
@blenkinsopthebrave considering the immediate preceding events to that line, I would guess at none of them. He wants to save the TARDIS, that’s been the only constant in the Doctor’s life.20 September 2015 at 07:30 #43023
@jphamlore and if yound davros does indeed die it would change a massive amount of the Doctor’s own history, and we all know what paradoxes mean!20 September 2015 at 07:16 #43020
Also I loved the massive hint that Missy may actually have been telling the truth about Gallifrey at the end of the last series with Skaro being invisible (remember Capaldi didn’t try to step out o the TARDIS, it could easily be there)20 September 2015 at 07:11 #43019
First post in here and all I can say about that series opener is wow. This was the best episode I’ve seen in a long time, and the first time since “Forest of the Dead” that a cliffhanger has actually shocked me. It left two quotes running through my head, and I haven’t been able to remove them since.
The first is “You either die the hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain”. Pretty obvious why, and I have a feeling that may have been Davros’ attempt to get a final victory over his arch-nemesis. Especially when you consider he’s accepted he no longer has control over the Daleks, or at least that’s what he wants The Doctor to believe.
The second one just shows SM probably started planning this storyline the moment The 50th anniversary special was written. “You would make a good Dalek”.