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22 November 2015 at 21:50 #47553
@miapatrick Infinite life, finite memory, teenager, easy to manipulate, big ball of hormones and emotions, a rather convenient teleport bracelet, are you thinking what I’m thinking?
22 November 2015 at 20:04 #47544So over on the Raven thread it was mentioned that Clara was once again the Hanging Man card, and that it represents a sacrifice made to bring a gift of great value. My thinking is that the gift will be Gallifrey, and that the anger and despair that CapDoc must have inside him at the moment will be what gets him through Heaven Sent.
22 November 2015 at 19:52 #47541@whisht I think you’ve hit the nail on the head by saying Clara was once again The Hanged Man. I also have an idea as to what will be gained as a result of her sacrifice. I’ll post my theory over on the spoilers thread though because it involves the last two episodes.
22 November 2015 at 17:32 #47529Welcome, @akhaten! I’m sure you will enjoy it here and it’s always nice to see new faces!
22 November 2015 at 17:01 #47523@pedant the thought of an immortal teenager is rather terrifying, isn’t it? I can only imagine what I’d be like as an immortal, and I’d rather not meet me. I mean, having all those hormones floating around in you, forever? That would be a living nightmare.
22 November 2015 at 13:13 #47507I see her death as result of the lack of luck.
This. This sums up my feelings on the matter completely. She did something The Doctor would definitely do, and was just unfortunate this was the one time that wouldn’t work. Because sometimes, once in a blue moon, but sometimes, The Doctor loses.
22 November 2015 at 10:23 #47494My brain might have just clicked as to why last weeks episode was important. It was the hint that we were being provided of Clara’s death. Because Clara was acting like The Doctor, she’d learnt the first rule to being him, the rule that Missy told her: If you believe you will win then you are more likely to. But last week was the reminder that it isn’t a guarantee. Last week The Doctor lost, despite that self-confidence. This week Clara was in his place, doing everything as he has been known to do, but she lost, because sometimes believing you will win just isn’t enough.
22 November 2015 at 06:10 #47481Over on the Raven thread @serahni just said something which made me think back to this and the 2nd Zygon episode. (obviously don’t go investigate unless you’ve see Face The Raven) From The Zygon Inversion:
Clara: So you must have thought I was dead for a while?
<i>Doctor: Yeah.
Clara: How was that?
Doctor: Longest<b> month</b> of my life.
Clara: It could only have been five minutes!
Doctor: I’ll be the judge of time.</i>And then in Sleep No More we have a machine that compresses sleep in to a 5 minute period that allows you to go a month without sleep. Coincidence?
22 November 2015 at 03:51 #47475Well, I didn’t expect that. I guess once Clara took the chronolock from Rigsy I should have known what would happen, but I just couldn’t let myself believe it. all the way until the raven actually took her I was still of the belief it could still be CapDoc. It’s rather fitting that Clara’s death comes when she is most like The Doctor, a reminder that there can only ever be one Magician. And the acting from all involved, especially in that final scene, was magnificent. But I can’t help but be disappointed that I was incorrect when I was so certain I would not be.
One thought for you to ponder on though. One idea that might mean this was all planned by another (probably Missy). Ashildr says she didn’t ever think Clara would do that, but I think that is a lie on her part. The one other time they’ve met was the start of Clara truly acting like The Doctor. And self sacrifice to save an innocent is most definitely something The Doctor would do. The signs were already there and somebody set this up, be it Ashildr or Missy or somebody else.
21 November 2015 at 16:02 #47421@phaseshift so THAT’s what the hybridness in Sleep No More was! The IndoJapanese environment!
21 November 2015 at 06:30 #47393@kharis and what is Sand but grinded down stone? I fully support your wonderful bonkerising!
21 November 2015 at 04:05 #47384@purofilion @kharis In regards to whether Sleep No More is a standalone or not, I’m really rather puzzled. I didn’t include it in my ring narrative theory, and it does make it very clear to me how it was supposed to be in S8, but at the same time you make a compelling case for it to be important to the current story arc. It is unquestionable that it aids the altered reality theme as you point out Kharis, and I can see why you view it as the connector episode Puro – another monster infecting Clara as with most of the series, and CapDoc being beaten leads nicely into the culmination of the series, in a slightly similar way to how Professor Yana “beats” Tennant in Utopia. I’m just really unsure of what it is and I don’t think I will be until at the very least a few days after I’ve seen Raven and processed everything.
21 November 2015 at 01:17 #47373@phaseshift Thank you! sorry about that, I hope you had a good night.
20 November 2015 at 21:13 #4736020 November 2015 at 20:33 #47355@bluesqueakpip
::cough:: Rule Zero: Moffat lies. ::cough::How did I forget that?!
Now that you mention it, I can see CapDoc has been staring at Clara a lot this series. Maybe a rewatch of S8 is needed to see how far back he’s been doing it. If it was there last series as well then it might be pointing back to Name of the Doctor
20 November 2015 at 19:23 #47351@bluesqueakpip ah right, so it was just the PS that was the problem, gotcha! as for Clara’s ending, I’m still trying to puzzle my head around Moffat’s words.
It will shock, terrify, and surprise you. strictly in that order.
Why though? It just doesn’t make any sense to me, and i don’t think it will until we actually have seen the last 3 episodes and her departure.
20 November 2015 at 19:01 #47349@phaseshift how do I move my post (#47346) to the spoilers page? I can’t seem to work it out
20 November 2015 at 18:48 #47348@bluesqueakpip my sincerest apologies! I don’t know how to move it to the spoilers page, how do I do that?
20 November 2015 at 18:30 #47346I’m beginning to wonder if there is possibly a link between the Lake/Flood 2-parter and the Zygon 2-parter. and in turn will there be a link between Apprentice/Familiar and Heaven/Hell.
I mean ignoring Sleep and Raven for the moment, then there’s 10 episodes, all as 2-parters. and the middle 2: Girl Who Died and Woman Who Lived, definitely seem to be important as a turning point of some sort. Not only does Ashildr get the immortality chip, but the names of the episodes I think could still have implications for Clara. Furthermore, Girl Who Died is the first time Clara properly acts as The Doctor, trying to reason with the Mire before Ashildr steps in and ruins everything, trying to persuade The Doctor to stay and help. In that episode she is no longer the apprentice, which makes it even more interesting that she doesn’t appear in The Woman Who Lived. Because you can’t have 2 magicians. You have to have a magician and an apprentice.Looking at the series if you look at just the 2 parters:
Daleks – Clara is definitely the apprentice, CapDoc and Missy make sure she is never alone.
Lake/Flood – Clara wants to be more like The Doctor, CapDoc doesn’t like how adventurous she’s become, Clara is forced to step up and be the magician for a little bit due to the lack of CapDoc, CapDoc is in a pod
Girl – Clara steps up and is the magician of her own accord, tries to convince The Doctor to stay
——————————————————————–
Woman – No Clara, just CapDoc being the sole magician, though Ashildr/Me has grown to be similar to a magician by her own
Zygons – Clara is brought back by The Doctor after 127 missed calls (shows Clara doesn’t need him to teach her anymore), Clara spends most of the time in a pod, thus CapDoc is left having to find another apprentice in the shape of Osgood
Heaven/Hell (from what non-spoilery stuff we know) – No Clara at the very least in Heaven, CapDoc left without an apprentice or anyone to make an apprenticeIt seems to me that Moffat might be trying to create a very complex Ring narrative, with a turning point in Girl/Woman, and culminating at both ends with The Doctor being alone.
19 November 2015 at 20:30 #47301@bluesqueakpip Great catch on the Scottish king/Scottish play thing! Never would have spotted that with a thousand rewatches!
19 November 2015 at 10:24 #47286Maybe it’s just wishful thinking but it is jarring to me that Face The Raven does seem to have so many people that know spoilers, when none of the other episodes have. It’s probably just because it’s a big spoiler so everybody who knows it is being a dick and publicising it, but to me it stinks of false information being fed to the media so that what actually happens is even more shocking (ie it being CapDoc not Clara).
18 November 2015 at 07:37 #47234@jphamlore I’m not sure how much of this is me just hoping it will happen, and how much I think it will happen, but I think SM might be planning to have CapDoc travel with Luke, we haven’t had a male solo companion in AG Who, nor an alien companion, plus he has high intelligence and would come with K9, so it could help put the show in a different direction than it’s been in a long time.
18 November 2015 at 04:50 #47230@janetteb I’m beginning to think my source was incorrect, because I can’t find it now, and you are correct that it is just a set in Leavesden studios. Also in the shots we’ve seen it looks more like Knockturn Alley so I am probably incorrect. Sorry guys!
18 November 2015 at 01:36 #47222I’m a little late to the party, but I think that a K9 movie could be marvellous, if only for the implications that it could mean. After all, he is currently in the possession of Luke Smith from SJA, after going with him to Uni. And how brilliant would it be if CapDoc were to travel with an alien, especially one that we already know and love?
17 November 2015 at 18:44 #47204@lisa thanks for the link. Fun Fact: the article says the street has a Diagon Alley feel to it, in fact it is diagon Alley, they used the same street to film for both.
17 November 2015 at 01:36 #47154@arch I’m sure you will find it a lot better once you’ve rewatched it, it has for me, especially as it’s a lot easier to follow once you’ve already seen it. No period of confusion that makes you miss things at the start.
17 November 2015 at 01:29 #47153@purofilion Here’s the video! Happy watching!
16 November 2015 at 23:07 #47146Okay that was a lot better on second viewing. I knew what to look for, so it was easier to follow and problems I previously had with it have been solved.
My main problem had been Chopra’s seemingly meaningless death. The grunt had saved him, he hadn’t used Morpheus, it made little sense to me on the first watch. But I picked up on how he died this time and it makes a lot more sense. He dies in the room that the super sandman was in, and presumably he got absorbed into it making him larger. especially as we’re given no clue as to how different the timescale between Chopra reaching it and the confrontation with Rasmussen is. It could be hours, it could be minutes, I would personally guess at being as the episode goes, giving 5 minutes for the absorption and then re-encasement before Rasmussen opens it up again.
There really is only two small gripes I have with it after this wholly more enjoyable second viewing.
1 – why do we get a shot from the TARDIS at the end? surely it hasn’t used Morpheus?
2 – Capdoc is quite clearly watching Clara, and in turn the pod, from very close quarters when it pulls her in. That strikes me as poor editing, would have made more sense for him to be looking somewhere else.16 November 2015 at 22:15 #47141I’m near the start of a rewatch and I just found something. Somebody said earlier how The Doctor losing and running away felt almost like it should be a Davison episode. Well, I just got to where CapDoc mentions “The Great Catastrophe”, looked it up, and apparently it is a reference by Gatiss to Frontios, one of Davison’s episodes. Anyhoo, back to the rewatch.
16 November 2015 at 17:44 #47122I feel like my faith in humanity has been restored. after the events in Paris my instant thought had been CapDoc’s speech, so on a youtube video of the speech I said something along the lines of how we need to remember talking is the only way to end this, and it has 27 likes.
16 November 2015 at 08:03 #47071@purofilion @janetteb I think that I must agree that no episode I’ve seen has been purely bad, there’s always been good parts. What I fear is that episodes I liked as a child I may now dislike. For instance, I remember loving the Slitheen double header, but I fear that if I watched it now, especially now that I’ve seen the Zygons, I would just find it childish, unoriginal and boring.
@jimmyp I might give it a rewatch tonight, maybe now that I know what to look for it will be easier to follow and consequentially a better episode
16 November 2015 at 02:44 #47041@purofilion you missed 2 for the snakes/serpents: The mural in UtL and the name of the school in the first Zygon ep being Draketon
i would say, as I suggested earlier this makes a triple theme of Snakes, Tarot and shape changing/hybrid
15 November 2015 at 23:20 #47029This episode just doesn’t sit right with me. It feels like it was meant to be in the last series and Gatiss has just recycled the idea, with a little bit of tweaking. Of the 3 themes to have appeared in every story prior to it this series (Tarot, Hybrid, Snakes) only the latter definitely appears with an iffy possibility that Tarot could still be there.
I mean there were parts I liked. The having Clara’s name in the coding was good, and the actual acting was great as usual, but I really felt like the story was very anti-climactic. No resolution, The Doctor lost but the villain died, there was no explanation to why Chopra died, who I was sure would survive after the Grunt sacrificed himself because he had not used Morpheus.
Furthermore, I just feel really confused. In the coding every name apart from The Doctor’s is horizontal. If it was who’s been infected, Chopra shouldn’t be on there. If it’s who survives Le Verrier, neither Clara nor Nagata should be on there. It just doesn’t make any sense and I don’t like it.
15 November 2015 at 15:00 #46994@bluesqueakpip Now that would be a curve ball, I like it! if Clara is indeed The Valeyard then I bow down to you for such brilliant bonkerising.
15 November 2015 at 00:02 #46949@countscarlioni the penny may have just dropped for me thanks to your article.
What we know already:
CapDoc is alone and trapped in Heaven Sent
Somebody doesn’t “survive” Face The Raven (trailer heavily hinting at this being Clara, I suspect misdirection)
The villain in Heaven Sent is called The Veil
Gallifrey returns in Hell BentCoupled with the one quote from Heaven Sent – “When, at last, you rise to go, there will be another shadow next to yours. And your life will then be over.”
If this doesn’t mean that CapDoc “dies” in Face The Raven and is hiding from The Valeyard in Heaven Sent then my name’s Harold Saxon!
14 November 2015 at 23:27 #46943Two things:
1 – In regards to Face The Raven,having seen the trailer, I feel like SM is trying to direct us towards Clara’s death occurring in it, which makes me feel like that is unlikely. In fact I think it might be CapDoc who “dies”, hence his alone time in Heaven Sent.
2 – I can not take as much claim as @kharis, since she was the one who actually wrote down the theory first, and it was she who developed it to include the Tarot theory, but it’s now looking very likely that the CAL=Clara theory I’ve held since pre-Series 8 is correct. It’s nice being correct for once.
7 November 2015 at 22:14 #46545would it explain to you my feelings on that episode if i say I’m tempted to watch it again immediately? Truly sublime
3 November 2015 at 14:37 #46265alright there’s too many of you to tag you all now, but @everyone suggesting Zygon!CapDoc the more I read this thread, the more convinced I am that you’re correct. The referring to himself in the 3rd person, the nicknames, the conversation with Osgood, everything just seems fishy.
2 November 2015 at 13:18 #46169Just a thought that popped into my head: When CapDoc is giving out instructions on where to go, he refers to himself in 3rd person. I think that’s the hint that he is a Zygon version that we needed. I can’t remember him ever referring to himself in that way
1 November 2015 at 02:13 #46022@fatmaninabox thank you, i did not realise I could do that!
http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/forums/topic/the-girl-who-died/page/3/#post-45123
1 November 2015 at 02:01 #46020Ah yes I remember now, I mentioned how the tarot theory had the doctor labelled as a magician, and thus made Clara the magician’s apprentice (as shown by the episodes that have followed) The fact that there is a snake on the Magician card reflects regeneration, but it’s specifically as an Oroboros belt, which could mean a bootstrap paradox. and since Clara is training to be “the magician” it could represent the claricles having no start or end. One thing I’ve just realised though, is that it could be some major foreshadowing. What if the Gallifreyans are a hybrid race and The Doctor creates them?
1 November 2015 at 01:51 #46017Greetings @soundworld, I too had been expecting another Snake to appear but alas not. Some time over the last to weeks I mentioned Oroboros on here, but I can’t remember which thread or what I said, I’ll go find it now now and then post it again on this thread for you to see.
24 October 2015 at 22:16 #45391Does anyone else get the feeling that Moffat is just trying to reference Magic as many times as possible now?
24 October 2015 at 21:34 #45388Not going to read anything yet, I’m only 10 minutes in to the episode, but alarm bells are already ringing with a functionally immortal girl who owns a large library and is annoyed that she doesn’t have enough memory to remember everything.
24 October 2015 at 12:21 #45363@purofilion I am not well read on the Cartmel Plan at all, but considering it’s to do with Mcgann I would presume so, which fits in nicely if you follow the belief Moffat is redoing it now with different names
24 October 2015 at 05:20 #45355Late night bonkerising now. So Davros assumed that the reason The Doctor fled Gallifrey was because of his part in creating a hybrid. But what if the Doctor IS the hybrid? Some reports says he’s human on his mother’s side, and who’s more warmongering than the Gallifreyans and Humans?
24 October 2015 at 04:30 #45354Only just caught up on the reading, my computer kind of went crazy for a few days. Apologies to @purofilion and @janetteb for the delay. I’m amazed you think of me as a good source for Tarot though. I only started looking into it when it was first mentioned in relation to this series and all research I’ve done on it has come from the internet. It’s only @kharis that truly knows her stuff, as far as I know at least.
@jphamlore good catch on the Shadow Proclamation and “Suicide Moons”. I had forgotten about them to be honest, but I’ve got to admit no you’ve reminded me the lack of a reappearance is somewhat jarring, like they are part of a larger arc that might not even be concluded this series.
19 October 2015 at 13:16 #45123Following on from that, I’ve just done a little bit more research on tarot and found something very interesting. So in TMa, and throughout the series in general CapDoc has been referred to as a Magician. Now if I remember correctly this forum came to the conclusion that the apprentice was Davros. But what if there was more than one? What if it was also referring to Clara. throughout the series we’ve been seeing Clara becoming more and more like The Doctor, to the point where I’m sure by the end of the series some may see her as a magician.
Now there are 4 cards that have a snake on them in Tarot apparently and one of them just so happens to be the Magician. This fits in nicely with The Doctor, because of the connotations of rebirth and regeneration. However, it is also the only snake card that has an Uroboros. An Uroboros is a snake swallowing it’s own tail, symbolising a neverendind cycle. Very bootstrap paradoxy. The Uroboros is also often associated with the ability to re-create oneself, like a Pheonix rising from it’s own ashes.
Now let’s look at the facts. Clara is becoming more Doctory every episode. There are an infinite number of Claricles, each born to save The Doctor. Coupled with the significance of Snakes, Oroboros, and the multiple uses of Tarot already, this surely cannot be a coincidence.
19 October 2015 at 12:57 #45122@countscarlioni @ozitenor A link to an episode including Medusa? Multiple snakes already this series? On running theme of people dying but not dying? A pill to make people immortal/ A lengthy explanation of bootstrap paradoxes? The continuous references to tarot, coupled with what a snake card means? Anyone else thinking what I’m thinking???
17 October 2015 at 22:40 #44958Right well first things first I completely forgot about her father still being alive, so Ashildr can’t be Jenny.
As for the rest of the episode it was a very unusual first part for a two parter, never seen it like this before. Until it actually said To Be Continued I was starting to doubt my memory of it being called a 2-Parter.
The cloister bell went off at the start again, getting it twice in the same series is strange enough, but only two episodes after the last time, the very next story? Crazy. And when you couple that with how many nods to an impending doom for Clara that CapDoc seems to know about, you get a definite series arc.
Yet again there was a serpent, hinting at rebirth, or as I’ve only just realised it could hint, somebody concealing their true form. Again there was Clara acting like a MetaDoctor, and a theme of trickery being used to survive, again linking to snakes.
All in all a great episode, and i am very intrigued as to how they will tie it in to next week’s episode, excluding recurring characters.
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