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17 June 2024 at 18:08 #76371
Remember, when 15 first appeared, the other guy got the trousers…
Priceless!
Am still trying to work out Mrs Flood. Nothing would surprise me at this point. We don’t know her first name. We don’t know her maiden name. Am now prepared to be told it was Helen Arbinger… But I still hold out hope that she is on the side of the angels (but not the Weeping Angels!). The fact that she knows what a TARDIS is and has been a close neighbour since Ruby’s childhood, must be relevant.
17 June 2024 at 03:09 #76349Your sketch map and aerial view: that’s awesome!
And the cloak. Yes, you may indeed be right.
17 June 2024 at 01:02 #7634316 June 2024 at 22:13 #76336Nah, it is an evil TARDIS, designed with evil intent by an evil deity, who turns out to be the progenitor of Maga…
Not only do the recruitment practises of UNIT leave something to be desired, but when the Doctor arrives and asks them to find S. Triad because her name is an anagram of TARDIS, they all roll their eyes: “Well, we knew that” is the collective response. Well, if they knew that a new technology company was arising led by someone whose name was an anagram of TARDIS, why didn’t they get in touch with the Doctor ASAP?
16 June 2024 at 18:30 #76327That is…an orange cloak.
16 June 2024 at 18:26 #76326Fun fact: a bit of quick research on Sutekh (god of storms, disorder, violence, etc) reveals he had, among his offspring, one called…Maga.
16 June 2024 at 18:17 #76325While it is very short, two things stand out: the image at the beginning looks like an evil, Sutekh-controlled(?) TARDIS. And who is standing by the controls? Second, the ever so brief clip of a figure in an orange clock walking towards a TARDIS (good or evil?) on a devastated landscape.
16 June 2024 at 15:46 #76321BBC trailer for Empire of Death
16 June 2024 at 05:50 #76310I tend to think you are both right. Yes, the Doctor has long ceased to be the magical solution to all of humanity’s problems. Or even the problems of non-humans. And the limits on the Doctor’s ability to solve the problems of others goes back a long way. The Pertwee Doctor had to witness (impotently) the Brigadier senselessly blowing up the undersea home of the Silurians. On the other hand, when the current Doctor punches the metal door in impotent rage over the death of Col. Childozie, it is clearly because he recognizes his role in the colonel’s death.
But I think that what the show did back in the days of Pertwee, or today, is to force us to think about these very questions. I think that is what makes Doctor Who such a special show.
16 June 2024 at 03:10 #76305A cracker of a post! I had forgotten all the names that Harriet Arbinger had listed (also seems very unfair in a story involving gods that some people (like Harriet) have had their humanity (as well as their lives) stripped away. Also agree with a point made upstream that the site seems really energized in a way we haven’t seen for some time.
Now off to re-watch.
16 June 2024 at 00:03 #76296Been thinking more about how Sutekh managed to escape from the captivity of Horus (as in deity) as opposed to Horace (as in Rumpole) and turn up in 2024 London. In “Pyramids of Mars” the Tom Baker Doctor tricks Sutekh, who (as the Baker Doctor explains) does not understand time and does not take account of the 2 minute delay for radio waves to travel from Mars to Earth, thus allowing the Doctor enough time to foil Sutekh and send him on his way.
Now, my idea (best guess) is that Sutekh (the one we have just seen) has been manipulating the Susan Twist character to (somehow) steal Tardis technology and and develop (via Triad Technology) a way of overriding the ability of the Tardis to do what the Tom Baker did back in “Pyramids of Mars”. But how to explain that to the viewer?
For this reason, I have this crazy notion that–just maybe–the upcoming episode will include clips of Tom Baker in “Pyramids of Mars”.
Anyway, whatever happens, I encourage finding (streaming service, library, etc) and watching “Pyramids of Mars”.
15 June 2024 at 21:00 #76287@thane16 Many thanks, Puro!
After watching the reveal unfold, I couldn’t help but look back at my post on the BBC Spoilers thread on 13 June at 17.53. I want to assure you I do not write for RTD2–although, perhaps I should!
I have a couple of thoughts about how Sutekh escaped from the captivity imposed on him by Horace in order to return this time, which I will give a bit more thought to. Suffice to say, the hint is in what Tom Baker says toward the end of “Pyramids of Mars”: “It’s all about time”.
14 June 2024 at 23:51 #76261Re: Mrs Flood and the potential of an another Tardis in her past. The Meddling Monk, perhaps?
In fact, I am starting to envisage a spin-off series of the travels of Mrs Flood and the Meddling Monk…
14 June 2024 at 05:11 #76228Having just seen the whole Tom Baker show (above) it seems like it has to be Sutekh.
Of course, if I was to add up all the times I had been wrong…
14 June 2024 at 05:01 #76227Just watched all of “Pyramid of Mars”. Fabulous. And it now seems obvious that we are are going to see or hear of Sutekh in the next episode.
If anyone out there subscribes to Britbox, I strongly recommend watching the show.
14 June 2024 at 02:41 #76223Just re-watched the first episode of 4-part Tom Baker story “The Pyramids of Mars” (1975). A great show! It introduces (but does not reveal) Sutekh. What a great show! And filmed on the estate then owned by Mick Jagger. If only the Doctor and Sarah Jane had a white cat with them. (You have to remember “The Mummy” with Brendon Fraser and Rachel Weisz to get that allusion.) After dinner, episode 2.
It seems obvious now that Sutekh is where we are leading to with the 15th and Ruby.
13 June 2024 at 17:53 #76221If S Triad leads us to Tardis, and if Triad leads us to Technology, then (with a bit of a twist) perhaps Susan Technology heads us back to…Sutekh.
13 June 2024 at 04:07 #7621413 June 2024 at 04:02 #76213Yes, Vancouver has its charms, but Vancouver Island, where we live, has a few more. Unfortunately, the BBC has shown no interest in filming Who here, so the local film industry is dependent on the dubious appeal of Hallmark movies.
13 June 2024 at 02:17 #76209Love the above! Indeed, Mrs Blenkinsop and I have been having a similar discussion that covers many of your points over a glass of wine. (And I hasten to add (on this international forum) that as we live off the west coast of Canada, the wine is being consumed at 6pm…
To respond to your Bonkers Theories:
1,2,3. No.
4. Perhaps…
5. Quite possibly.
6. Probably not.
7. Maybe.
8. Maybe.
9. Perhaps (but would need more evidence).
10. I am attracted to that. Mrs Blenkinsop is more sceptical.
11. If you mean Shalka, then yes.
12. Could be.
13. Speaking from a totally secular house, maybe!
Phew! Time for another glass of wine…
12 June 2024 at 19:30 #76200BBC plot description for “Empire of Death”
“his ageless enemy”…?
12 June 2024 at 15:56 #76197I think I read somewhere that both episodes would be screened back to back in selected cinemas on the 24th.
12 June 2024 at 15:54 #76196The Rani. Hmm. Had not thought of her, but someone with a bright red fingernail did pick up the Toymaker’s gold tooth containing the Master at the end of “The Giggle”…
12 June 2024 at 03:20 #76186Yes, agree entirely about alternate/altered reality. And still think music may be important. Or not.
11 June 2024 at 23:29 #76181I have been amusing myself by scanning the web for outlandish theories about what might happen in the two-parter finale. Most are just versions of Triad Technology, so I thought I would throw in the one thing I would love to see (and based on RTD2 saying that there will be some sort of reference to the period of the Pertwee Doctor).
I think it would a real hoot if RTD2 could use his large Disney budget on voice and facial technology to bring back the Roger Delgardo Master!
But I am, alas, prepared for disappointment on that front.
10 June 2024 at 22:07 #76170Could RTD2’s long-term plan be to bring the Timelords back? In fact, could he have decided to accept Chibnall’s eradication of the Timelords in order to bring them back?
9 June 2024 at 05:24 #76139Well, I am not sure my conclusions to my previous post can match the excellence of the dinner.
Conclusion 1: Music is central to the season, and is central to whether or not Earth survives.
Conclusion 2: Ruby is associated with music in a way that makes her special (and potentially capable of saving humanity).
Conclusion 3: Ever since she ran away on adventures with the Doctor, they may have been having adventures in an alternate timeline/reality/ universe.
Conclusion 4: What we have been seeing ever since “The Church on Ruby Road” may have been a creation of an alternate AI-generated reality created by Triad Technology run by S. Triad (ie, Susan Twist).
9 June 2024 at 04:04 #76137Random thoughts about what this episode might reveal about what is to come.
- Dates: From “The Giggle” until now there have been some important dates: 1925 – When John Logie Baird recorded the first moving image and voice of Stooky Bill which would lead to television, and therefore, to “Doctor Who”.
- Music: What Stooky Bill utters is an Arpeggio, which is notes of a chord performed one after another.
- Dates: 1963- When “Doctor Who” begins. Also when The Doctor and Ruby arrive in London. Also when Maestro attempts to ensure the destruction of the world.
- Music: Maestro is puzzled by Ruby emoting the Carol of the Bells, which is metrically bistable, ie, a four note repeated melodic phrase in 3/4 time and a bell pealing in 6/8 time. A listener can focus on either measure or switch between them.
- Dates: 2005-Ruby is born and “Doctor Who” begins again.
- Music: At the church we hear (for the first time) “The Carol of Bells” at the church. We also hear “0The Carol of Bells when Ruby is captured by by Maestro and the music comes out of her and Maestro cannot understand how Ruby contains the music.
- Date and Music:1813 The whole episode (“Rogue”) is a historical pastiche, and the music is contemporary–Billie Eilish, Kylie Minogue, etc, etc.
And the point is?
Coming after dinner.
8 June 2024 at 18:29 #76110The addition of another ring on the Doctor’s hand at the end made me think of the discussion here on the forum about the possible meaning of all his rings back in “The Church on Ruby Road”. Given his addition of the ring from Rogue, perhaps one of the other rings was from Houdini.
8 June 2024 at 03:23 #76104Like @craig, I can only imagine the craziness of the interwebs. In fact, I am looking forward to to this episode becoming part of the UK election coverage.
As someone who started watching the very first episode as a nipper back in 1964 (there was a bit of a gap before the show started on TV in Australia) it has been blindingly obvious that the show has always pushed the boundaries of what “responsible adults” assumed was right and proper for anybody to watch. My parents thought the Hartnell shows were too “dark” for my impressionable nipper brain, for example.
Anyway, both Mrs Blenkinsop and I thought this totally gay Who episode was a hoot. The Doctor was the Doctor – always focussed on saving whoever he could save. The intergalactic villains were probably some of the silliest cos-playing villains I have ever seen, and we enjoyed ourselves immensely.
7 June 2024 at 17:39 #76090Coming this Christmas!
7 June 2024 at 05:14 #76084The cast list for the final two-parter lists Susan Twist playing a character called Susan Triad. Is not S. Triad an anagram of Tardis?
7 June 2024 at 03:29 #76083Orange. Have you noticed how prominent the colour is in the clothing of both the Doctor and Ruby? Is it just an art director’s choice (and it is a great colour) or something else?
I would love to have a complicated theory, but I suppose I will just have to accept that it is just a cool colour.
5 June 2024 at 00:54 #76065@scaryb That is really sad news. He was wonderful in the early Hartnell episodes, and a wonderful companion in the context of the early 1960s. When I first started watching the show at the age of 12 when the show began I always felt he was the type of school teacher I wish I had.
RIP
4 June 2024 at 20:40 #76062on the question of Susan Twist, everyone is focussing on the name Susan, but there is a very famous tale of an abandoned baby by Charles Dickens: Oliver Twist.
He is not abandoned in the same way as Ruby (as he is born in a workhouse, and his mother dies giving birth). But his identity (or evidence of his mother’s identity such as a blanket and a neckless) is stolen.
3 June 2024 at 23:55 #76046Random thoughts about who or what Ruby is, as we make our way to the two-parter in a couple of weeks.
What do we know? It is clear that when the Doctor arrives at the pub where Ruby is playing in the band that he is there to find her. There is nothing random about their first meeting–he is there to find her. Why? We can (I think) assume she is human. True, I base this assumption of the prosaic notion that anyone growing up in Manchester and London would at various times have been pocked, prodded, x-rayed, and all the regular stuff that a 19 year old would be subject to over the years. (So, no two hearts, for example.)
But it it is also clear that she is “special”. Where this comes from and why it is so, I do not know. But I assume it precedes her adventures with the Doctor. Which leads me back to the question of why the Doctor seeks her out in the first place.
Then there is the question of the universe she inhabits. It might be London, but is it London held in place by gravity, or mavity? It is clearly a universe where magic can happen, and a Wales where fairy circles can change everything if disturbed. But how central, if at all, is she to that?
And then there is the question of who left her at the church in 2005; just when RTD was re-introducing the show to the world after a long break–sorry, not only am I starting to ramble, but my rambles are getting a bit meta now.
I will conclude where I began–why does the Doctor enter the pub looking for her?
I confess, I’m stumped. Oh well, it looks like I will have to wait until “The Legend of Ruby Sunday”.
3 June 2024 at 01:23 #76029BBC trailer for upcoming episode “Rogue”
2 June 2024 at 20:39 #76026On the suggestion voiced above that the horrid inhabitants of Finetime might be the Space Babies grown up, I would say no for two reasons: the Space Babies were racially diverse, and they were sympathetic to the suffering of the bogeyman, which this appalling lot would never be.
1 June 2024 at 18:20 #75977Giving it more thought, the other movie (besides Truffaut’s version of “Fahrenheit 451” that I mentioned earlier) that this story reminded me of would have to be George Pal’s excellent version of HG Wells’ “The Time Machine” from 1960. I am thinking in particular of the scene shortly after Rod Taylor’s time traveller arrives in the future to discover the child-like Eloi, who, while they live a live of endless play, have been drained of any sense of morality or feelings for the well-being of their fellow compatriots, as they blithely ignore the plight of a companion who is drowning.
In both movies, the populous have been given a life of ease, but have been both infantilized and drained of any sense of the importance of caring about anyone except themselves.
I really think RTD has given us another excellent episode, and one of the darkest in the history of Who.
1 June 2024 at 03:32 #75965Actually, the other thought that just came to me was my memory of the Francois Truffaut version of “Fahrenheit 451” where Julie Christie has all her humanity drained from her by participating in the interactive TV soap operas.
1 June 2024 at 03:10 #75964Okay, that was both both powerful and utterly depressing.
Not sure what else to say at the moment.
30 May 2024 at 20:43 #75942Trailer for upcoming episode “Dot and Bubble”
30 May 2024 at 06:15 #75933To what end?
To save herself.
I am not sure why I said that, but it somehow just seemed right.
30 May 2024 at 03:21 #75929@janetteb Well, I am still stubbornly clinging to my idea that the “mystery woman who left her at the church” is Ruby.
28 May 2024 at 23:45 #75917@thane16, @mudlark, Was thinking about the point you both discuss–ie, could Ruby give birth to herself.
If Ruby, at some point does give birth to a girl, could we imagine a scenario where Ruby herself, with the aid of the TARDIS or another time machine, takes the new-born back in time and leaves the child in front of the church. In other words, Ruby creates a temporal paradox that always repeats itself. Would she, potentially, create an ever-recurring loop?
Running with this idea, while the Doctor intervenes once to ensure Ruby is saved from the goblins, and is not deleted from existence, the Doctor nonetheless has a subsequent slightly different memory (during “Space Babies”) where the woman who leaves the baby in front of the church points at him. And the doctor responds with a look of…surprise?
I am sure these thoughts will turn out to be complete cobblers, but this is a forum for theories even more insane than what’s actually happening, so I just thought I should throw it into the mix.
26 May 2024 at 18:28 #7590226 May 2024 at 05:25 #75882Second viewing, second thoughts.
Perhaps some of the most important words are spoken in the pub early on, by the Sian Phillips character when Ruby reveals that her friend (ie, the Doctor) accidentally stepped on the circle of thread and Ruby read the messages aloud. The Sian Phillips character points out that the spot that is being described by Ruby is the boundary between the sea and the land and, as such, is a liminal space.She is making the point that this is where magic can happen, and where there are distinct rules to be followed, and that by breaking the circle and reading the messages, Ruby has broken the rules. And one implication is to release the spirit of “Mad Jack”.
Now, this is sort of reminiscent to Wild Blue Yonder, which is also a liminal space at the edge of the universe–ie, where magic can happen. And the Tennant Doctor constructs a line of salt, with his own rules (that the pieces of salt have to be counted). And then, in The Giggle, the Tennant Doctor admits that by doing this, he may have allowed the Toymaster entrance to the universe. Once here, the Toymaster creates his own set of rules that have to be followed.
So, to return to 73 Yards, we are seeing another example of magic intruding into the real world with attendant rules to be followed. Ruby and the Doctor inadvertently break the rules, the Doctor disappears (?) and Ruby has to play it out to the end–of her life.
Anyway, just some late night thoughts.
26 May 2024 at 00:56 #75880@mudlark You make excellent points about the importance of abandonment in relation to Ruby. I am starting to wonder if the Doctor doesn’t just appear in the dance hall and strike up a conversation with Ruby in The Church on Ruby Road but rather seeks her out precisely because he knows all about her and the centrality of abandonment to her. Indeed, he may already be aware of the events in the episode we just watched when he meets her back then. Of course, others may have already made a version of this point.
p.s. @mudlark No need whatsoever for an apology, as the comments are coming thick and fast and overlap is inevitable.
25 May 2024 at 22:38 #75871<p style=”text-align: left;”>For the first time, Ruby feels she recognizes the hiker played by Susan Twist. “Haven’t I seen you before?” or words to that effect. That also acknowledges that Ruby has previously seen Susan Twist’s face. (I know that it has been argued that while we, the audience, have seen the same face multiple times, that Ruby was never in actual eye contact in previous episodes.) This question by Ruby belies that argument. But as for what it means, or where it is leading, I no idea.</p>
25 May 2024 at 20:01 #75863@thane16 Yes, Sian Phillips! For me, the indelible memory is her as Smiley’s wife in the 1970s version of “Tinker, Tailor…” Given a choice between watching space babies and Sian Phillips anytime, anywhere, Sian Phillips wins out hands down.
And while I thought the episode was excellent, I confess I did at one point (after Ruby has had no luck with the awful pub patrons) think back to the bit in “Blink” where the video store owner is berating the movie he is watching: “Just go to the police! Why does nobody just go to the police?”
@bunface: The plot’s thickening so quick the Spoon’s standing up on it’s own.
Brilliant!
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