[lisa @replies]

@purofilion
Love to hear your stories! You always have an entertaining perspective about everything.

@geoffers @bluesqueakpip
Regarding the song Amazing Grace, I immediately thought that since its a song about conversion
then has to be a subtle reference to Clara and the hybrid conversion. But I also can get the
Zygon hint too.

@kharis
The 8th Doctor film was set in San Francisco. So how about a script that’s something like the
Doctor having Sara Jane style adventures with some young Whosters from Frisco? One comes
from silicon valley as a techie geek and maybe another young Whoster is Berkeley health nut
environmentalist which also has a Rigsby type Zygon double that teaches dance and science?
I thru in the Zygon since its a Zygon thread and the dance and science:) (Did you catch how I
sneaked that). I can totally see how that might work.
It can also pick up Whosters from other places in the world/universe. Something like where
Sara Jane left off and possibly a bit similar to how the new BBC ‘Class” series is that’s
being developed now might do.
Oh my! Did I just have a sudden in the moment sort of burst of wild experimenting?

2purofilion

[lisa @replies]

@phaseshift Thanks for sharing this! I shared it on to a few more friends
and I know they will appreciate seeing this as much as I have! We have a epidemic
of poor governance in so many places. It’s more than just about sticking your finger up.
Its also about staying informed and making smart choices so that we get good government too.

[lisa @replies]

@janetteb In my house we still refer to it as the tube as in
“what’s on the tube?”. Then some one says ‘not much”. Its like a running
gag. I turned it on this week a few times.
But I guess the tube thing probably wasn’t anything.

I’ve been to the UK a lot. I don’t spend lots of time in the cities. There is
great stuff in the cities but all my favorite places in the UK are mostly
but not totally around the cities. Its the Peak district and the
Lake district and the Yorkshire area and all those great gardens, all the villages
and so on and on. I like taking the trains to get around too. Unfortunately I have
a bit of a problem with driving the things called the round abouts. lol Their
everywhere and they are very tough for me!

[lisa @replies]

@purofilion There are 2 Osgoods and they both seem to be reasonable and level headed.
They both also call themselves Osgood. Then we get 2 Clara’s but 1 calls herself Bonnie
and is a dark copy of the original. Now is that because of the Zygon or could that be
from something that’s been lurking inside of Clara and shows up in the Bonnie version?
Interesting thing about that clip is that I’m not sure if Clara is really in her flat or
if she is dreaming that scene in her head while she’s trapped in the pod? Maybe its her
way of trying to break out of the pod?
I’m probably just stretching things again.

[lisa @replies]

@purofilion I keep thinking about her voice mail when she says “I’m either in the tube
or in space” and then she ends up in a tv ‘tube’. Is that a thing?
Yes, the other side of what?

[lisa @replies]

@jphamlore @blenkinsopthebrave

Great ideas! I’m inclined to think of Clara being a hybrid with some Zygon
in her and that she has been picking up lots of little bits of hybrid-ish
features going back to SmithDoc starting with the time stream and then the
hacking talents and so on. So my question now is what all these powers are
leading up to? I think she is going to morph into something new possibly using
the Zygon gift for becoming another life form but also not sure that will turn
out so well. Also, I wonder if she chooses to morph to escape death and it doesn’t
go well then becomes trapped into a new way of existing?

[lisa @replies]

@blenkinsopthebrave I totally missed that! Thanks tons and acres because
I sure do need it 🙂

[lisa @replies]

@drben OMGosh! I seem to be tripping over my fingers lol
previous post

[lisa @replies]

@BrBen previous post 🙂

[lisa @replies]

DrBen Yes, think it was significant. The Knightmare was a thief and the
nightmare scenario is broadly a rebel faction wanting to steal the planet.
So my thinking is in ‘Face the Raven’ some entity/person/thing will try to
commit theft. Maybe robbing Clara which might also involve hybridizing
and creating a nightmare for the Doctor to cope with?

[lisa @replies]

Oh wow! Cant wait for Saturday after seeing this!

[lisa @replies]

@countscarlioni They put out some pictures from next episode out today and 1 has
a very good look at the box. The shots don’t look very spoilery and are on the Doctor
Who news site.

[lisa @replies]

@countscarlioni Sorry I missed that post. Could be? It’s another paradox.
Probably just a device to give the Doctor the upper hand. I think it would be
interesting if it ends like the movie “They Live” but I doubt that will happen.

When the Doctor was stroking the Zygon control panel on the screens around him the words
‘Sapphire’ popped up. I took that to mean it was the name of this UNIT operation? It
was pretty prominent. I don’t think its connected to the box. But it had me thinking.

[lisa @replies]

So do we have anyone that wants to make a prediction about the Tardis blue Osgood Box?
I would like to predict that its not actually a box. When the Doctors had their fingers
on the pulse of the big red button of the Moment they chose to do something different.
I wonder if we will even get to see what the box is capable of. Maybe its a sort of bluff?
I imagine that the Doctor has already anticipated this conflict. But how is this box in
the plan?

[lisa @replies]

@bluesqueakpip @nerys @purofilion

Thanks everyone for commenting! I always appreciate all the help I can get 🙂

You are all right! I also think those scenes with the 2 little girls/Zygons and UNIT soldiers
at the church would be a lot creepier and peculiar if I guess I try to use my rational
brain instead of my Doctor Who universe brain. Cant dispute that. I will re-adjust my settings.

Regarding all the other soldiers following the first soldier into the church I suppose its
possible that the Zygons were taking the shapes of people that all the other soldiers knew.

Assuming that these scenes are being developed intentionally confusing and when the
explanations finally come we wont be underwhelmed. Optimistic since I have the comfort
of never really feeling disappointed.

[lisa @replies]

I just re watched most of this episode and a couple things are nagging at me

1. When I think about the idea of an older man talking o 2 young girls
and then they get snatched well just saying that it felt unnerving and i cant decide
if I think that scene is courageous or crude

2. That church scene with the UNIT soldiers bugged me too. Why would they all follow
the Zygon/people impersonators into the church? That was annoying again on this watch

BTW- Are Zygons androgenous? That’s what I’ve been assuming.

Also, for just a moment I thought the boy sitting on the stairs could be the boy that
Danny sent back. I think that might have worked out well.

[lisa @replies]

@blenkinsopthebrave Totally remember this from when I was still a kid.
The series didn’t last too long but it came at a time when invasion sci-fi
like Quartermass, Nomads, Body Snatchers were all coming out. Great stuff!
Thanks for this!

[lisa @replies]

@blenkinsopthebrave Apologies!! lol – That was meant for @phaseshift about
the series 9 on Amazon. 🙂 Didn’t mean to cause you any mental grief with that!

You think that Jac and the UNIT troop were Zygons which had become totally
absorbed by the Human personalities? Therefore Bonnie/Clara saw them as traitors
to her concept of Zygon purity and chose to eliminate all of them? Yes, I can see
how that can work.

[lisa @replies]

@kharis That’s a great Dali Lama quote! What sort of science? Maybe get into the
special effects dept?

@blenkisopthebrave Zygon Clara lets the UNIT team die. So they were
likely human since the Unit investigator named Jac was a human.
BTW – what ever happened to Malcolm? I like his charecter as a UNIT scientist

[lisa @replies]

@blenkinsopthebrave Bummer if its only 1-6 ! I haven’t pulled up the Amazon yet.

@arbutus You are right about Osgood’s question mark shirt because as you say
which one? She’s a really great mystery now! I like that about her!

Why do I recall something someone said someplace about this series being about
Clara and the Doctor gallivanting across the universe and having glory days?
Was that 1 of the SM comments?

The Doctor took the plane because if he is a Zygon copy then the real Doctor
wouldn’t grant access to the Tardis to an imposter. The Zygon does have
a pair of sunglasses but not sure if they are sonic. Also, when he refers to himself
as Dr. Funkinstein and the Disco Doctor and I think it’s the Zygon sense of humor? 🙂

[lisa @replies]

We have a Zygon invasion ‘nightmare’ scenario and in the last episode we had
the Knightmare highway man.

Secondly, when Bonnie/Clara was trying to get the UNIT soldiers to shoot the pods it
reminded me quite a lot of Missy trying to get the Doctor to shoot Dalek/Clara.

Thirdly, who leaves 127 messages? To my mind that shows a lot of paranoia too?

So some paranoia and a dark nightmare situation possibly used in an attempt to manipulate
murder at the end of this season? But all this in a family show sort of way.

@missy My patience is running painfully thin too so I might have to follow you to Amazon

[lisa @replies]

Clara’s appearances seem to have really been squeezed back quite a bit so far this series.
So I’ve been trying to postulate that it maybe Zygon Clara that Missy trapped in the Dalek.
Then it means – 1. the real Clara didn’t get the hybrid zap in that instance and
2. Clara has been in a pod for a while! So @sirclockface you have an interesting point.
But please explain how you arrived at two Clara’s from the end of the 50th. Because
its a bit hard for me imagining a Zygon Clara in the series 8 episodes particularly with Danny.
In fact I cant imagine Zygon Clara writing cheat answer cards for the Doctor like the ones he
used in Under the Lake. I think the switch just happened in this episode. But Who nose.
Really would like to know what you were thinking when you say 2 Clara’s walked off.

[lisa @replies]

The Osgood box can be a version of the device that made the Zygons and Humans forget which they
were? Maybe it will create those clouds around the world that drop seed something just like
in Death in Heaven? But I agree that it does rather resemble the Moment, the weapon to be
used when there are no other possibilities left which is interesting.

This might have already mentioned upstream if so apologies.

[lisa @replies]

Well that was quite good! In the States we went onto daylight savings time so I guess
we can say that we time traveled. 🙂 I have to watch again ! Lots of women in high ranking
positions which is so opposite the political situation that this episode was trying to reflect.
When the Doctor made the point about how bombing radicalizes the opposition I thought Yeah! Really
wish that in our real world that .they would end all the bombing asap

I still think Clara will end up trapped in another dimension and this Zygon form isn’t her end.
I’m basing that on several things. I re-watched Listen and Hide together.
In ‘Hide’ we have 2 creatures trapped and yearning for each other. In ‘Listen’ we
get that word listen on the chalkboard. I think it had to be written by Clara from
another dimension. (look at the sticky notes from Dark Water and see the identical way
of writing letters on sticky note ‘lying’ and the chalkboard word ‘listen’) Also, all
the traps. In a Dalek, under the water, now in a Zygon pod. Plus the links with myths and
the clues from other places and at the end of the day I think it all reflects on Clara ending
up trapped in another dimension in just a few more episodes from now. I know lots of folks think
she was becoming a Hybrid but my feeling is she has always been so which might be part of a
big twist we get at her end. Its probably been the bed rock of her story from the beginning when
she climbed out of the time stream. Zygon Clara is just another deflection IMHO.

Loved reading everyone’s comments!

[lisa @replies]

Apologies if this was already posted but when Clara says ‘run you clever boy and remember me”
can she possibly be referring to Ashildr/Me and not herself/Clara/me? Was that an implanted
clue to the Doctor about this ‘new Me’?

@purofilion
So distracted by all this that it interrupts my other reading and I keep drifting back
into this Whoverse !! So it might take me 10,000 hours to get thru this book! ( which is
pretty good so far). Trying to read ‘House of Leaves’ which is full of anomalies and
was probably not a good choice to get into now. 🙁

[lisa @replies]

If the Doctor has read the Gladwell book then he knows Me’s story is either omitting
some things or/and possibly telling faux pas in parts of her journals. He may have
said that he was happy that Me would be watching his companions but does he mean it?
I think that could have been just a damage control comment he said to her.

[lisa @replies]

@countscarlioni

Maybe he read her journals? They are coming out with a Ashildr book.
Maybe he found it at Waterstones and put it in his own book? But really – probably not 😉
Another “anacronism’. I have the Gladwell book ‘Blink’ and I read thru about half of it.
But I do like the way his mind works. He has some massively interesting ideas.

[lisa @replies]

Clearly its been the tradition in Doctor Who to save the loved ones. Even the Simm master.
But maybe it depends on who shows up – Me or Ashildr? That outfit in the picture
is a crazy making clue. So what kind of patron saint of companions is she? I’m so anxious
for the explanation!

[lisa @replies]

@blenkinsopthebrave

@drben @cybercat @ichabod

@everyone So since we know that River’s library is a universe where there is a
kind of immortality or a place like the nethersphere, (although that is shut down unless
UNIT or Missy help with that) then how likely is it Clara ends up in 1 of these
places even with Me’s involvement? I think we can calibrate Me/Ashildr into this whole scenario.
But I’m still wondering if Clara’s end can be death without death so to speak. Could it be
a hint that River is returning to the end of this series? Might she also end up
involved in some fashion to Clara’s end. I think its one possible reading of it at this point.
What fashion will it be that the Doctor lets Clara go? He loves River the way he loves Clara
and the way he loved Rose and he ‘aved’ all of them.

[lisa @replies]

Thinking about the scenes that were chosen to show as bits of Me’s life.
Losing babies, faking death, soldiering and also working as a nurse on several
occasions with people suffering from diseases showing that she values life but she
still feels death is justified. All these experiences shaped her and must be making
the case for maybe something very significant with Clara.
So @blenkinsopthebrave the photo implies she has been a back round fixture!
If Me is there to hold the Doctor back from saving Clara then could that be connected
to her saying ‘I take particular note of anyone’s weakness’ and the Doctor said something
like he was very glad she would be watching out for the companions. I think you maybe
on to something sir.

[lisa @replies]

@purofilion I just think that Clara has galaxies full of friends but just wants to
hang out with a few special ones.

@ichabod I guess I will have to see a few more episodes with Me but I meant ambitious
in the sense of showing a eagerness to distinguish herself when she was telling the Doctor
of the events ofr her life.

@jphamlore From your description it seems to me that the justice card is spot on!

@brewski Could it be Simon – ale – cocktail – ‘BREW’-ski ?? 🙂

[lisa @replies]

@nerys So just wondering if there might be some way to connect Clara’s book of impossible places
with Me who was a journal maker/keeper? Clara doesn’t have a lot of knowledge about her Mom as far
as I can tell. Clara needs her stories for the same reasons as Me – to build memories.
To my mind there are several candidates as hybrids. I was thinking though that Clara could have already
had a hybridish super power to survive the time stream. Maybe if she was born of an immortal mother
then could she have the ability to resist death going into that time stream?

[lisa @replies]

@nerys That’s a fascinating idea and might account for the sunglasses.
However Clara’s end shakes out its going to be 1 breathtaking twist!

I think it will be involving Lady Me and whether we get Daleks or Missy
well why not?

[lisa @replies]

It occurs to me that first the Doctor spies on Ashildr at the leper colony and now she
is spying on him and Clara. Dysfunctional much? She seems to have some clues about
the Doctor and my bonkers theory is she ran into Rory who was also taking the slow path
back home guarding Amy 🙂

@whisht To your point about following Clara – I think she told the Doctor she would
be following all his companions and Capdoc put on a peculiar expression when she said it.
Maybe she got this idea from Rory who was Amy’s roman guard. Nah- that’s too weird

I like this mystery. It has a similar feeling to me as the River Song mystery unwind had.
River became extremely significant and I have a hunch we are getting a 2.0
They both keep diaries and have library connections. Me lady vs Melody. Wow, that’s even weirder

[lisa @replies]

Clara was born to save the Doctor from any risk. It seems justified that Ashildr
is a bit distraught over having lived thru so many difficult events of her slow path.
I’m thinking she might have morphed into a risk. So I wonder about what she wants to
accomplish.
So maybe she saved the world because she didn’t like the alien interference. That impact
would mean severe interference to her ambitions. Look at the lives she choose to live. She
is extremely ambitious and tenacious. That photo of her felt like her message was game on
to the Doctor.
The enemy inside the friend.

[lisa @replies]

I’m assuming that Ashildr has found a way off the slow path.
The way she looks and dresses and the fact that she stands behind a gate as though it were
a prison in that photo suggests that she is very devious and probably quite criminal.

I think the ‘raven’ necklace Clara wore implies she is the raven possibly protecting the
Doctor and I think Ashildr is causing a serious risk to both Clara and the Doctor.

Also you cant miss the shocking red gloves Ashildr wore. Or the fancy red dress. Watching it
this time I noticed tons of red. Red as in blood and war. Last week Clara had a very blue shirt.

So now I’m thinking Ashildr isn’t Ellie but is teasing that she is possession of knowledge as
it relates to Clara origin story and has the intention to do something to her.

[lisa @replies]

I’m having a problem with how it can be that Ashildr is in that present day photo? I just
have the feeling that the time line is inconsistent. I thought she was on the slow path?
So how does that work?

I’m also thinking Ashildr harbors animosity against the Doctor. Just what exactly does
she intend for the Doctors ‘leftovers’?

Someone on this thread had an interesting reading of the tea leaves about the Nightmare Child.
I will have to look that up again because I thought that was a place. But I guess that doesn’t mean
that it isn’t still connected .

I like this episode. Better than last week. Liked the conversations. Liked the atmosphere.
Liked the guitar rift -always like that sort of music a lot.

[lisa @replies]

@bendubz11 previous post 🙂

Wondering about the up coming episode “Face the Raven” hm? Feels to me like we are getting very
close to a big reveal.

If it does turn out that its Ashildr/Elie as the same woman then she met Clara before becoming
her mother which is actually a little bit mind boggler to me in spite of being a long time Who fan.

[lisa @replies]

Finally read thru al these posts and whew! Late arrival to this weeks party

I Wiki’d the leonine character Leandro and found that it is related to the Tharils from the 4th
Doctors time. So it was basically the return of that time sensitive and time shifting alien.

@kharis A truly amazing visual spot! I wonder if there is any association in Ashildr the
Viking and the choice of Elsie “Ravenwood’s’ last name? The whole thing had a very strong stalking
vibe and its definitely a thing. They did use 2 different guys to play Clara’s dad so why not 2 Elies?
Also elsewhere I read of the possibility that Ashildr may have been invited into UNIT or Torchwood which
would allow her access to hologram tech. Maybe the fact that they used 2 Dads is a tiny clue about “which
is which’ Elie association?

Bendubz11 I also thought about River and the library when I saw the extensive library at Ashildr’s
house and her also the memory issues remark made me think computer.

[lisa @replies]

I think art is anything that comes from your imagination and your imagination
is the meeting place between your thinking mind and your sensing body. Good
art might be anything that has resonance with you.

[lisa @replies]

@spider That’s a beautiful story! There’s magic in it just like in Doctor Who.
Thanks for sharing! 🙂

[lisa @replies]

@drben Although I found this episode in some sense a bit unsatisfying still
I see Mathieson can write good stories that cross over to very different places extremely well.

I also wondered about Ashildr’s youth. She is at least not as young child as in the “Interview”
movie. She seems to me about the age of Clara when she met 11 yet all the same I take your point.

About your youth and age point and how the Doctor is somewhat darker now in terms of not giving
any f*** that seems to come with age, I think that concept about age is rather wrong. Like you though
I also have a hunch that the Doctor is burdened and unsettled and he’s even mentioned the burden of
caring a few times of late. But maybe the difference was that 11 was a bit less reckless than 12.
His face should be reminding him of how he becomes when he acts recklessly or rebelliously. Donna
was trying to remind him he is the Doctor and he should save people. That is part of why he saved
Ashildr but also because I think she touched a nerve in him.

But I’m on the same page as you on all your other points!

[lisa @replies]

So is it ‘run you clever boy and remember me’ as in never forget what you did to me
so it wont happen to anyone one else?

[lisa @replies]

@denvaldron Deepest condolences

[lisa @replies]

Have we all noticed how the Doctor has been somewhat reckless? In Witch’s Familiar he uses a
lot of regeneration energy up in the Davros trap and I think he knew that was coming. Now he
is bringing back the dead. This is something I expect to see from Missy. In before
gap Who maybe I’m wrong but it seems the Doctor would often ask himself if he had the right
to change things. So that’s where the face comes in. To remind himself that recklessness
is going to come back and bite him. In some of the previous posts this has been mentioned.
So is this how things change with Clara. Maybe its not about her changing into a hybrid or
any of the Clara possibilities we have shared. Maybe its about the Doctor. He’s a Doctor
showing more of his darkness. “Am I a good man’. He seems unsettled and burdened. I
just wonder if Clara’s end might be because of a situation that is mismanaged by the Doctor.
I wonder if there are clues going in that direction? This ‘burden of care’ he mentions a lot
now. I think he is wondering going forward that he will not be able to control her. So will
he let something happen and not keep her safe? I think its reasonable to consider suspecting his
judgments in respect to Clara’s end.

[lisa @replies]

@purofilion About your ‘a dr’ idea – have you read this?

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2015-10-17/what-does-the-name-ashildr-reveal-about-maisie-williamss-doctor-who-character

good catch puro!

[lisa @replies]

@221badwolf
I felt that when Ashildr was telling the Doctor about always being different
it struck a cord in him. As a very young Doctor he may have been approximately
the same age when he had those same feelings. Therefore when she died that might
of been in his mind and so hit him particularly hard. That might to be in part
why she was brought back. But I agree it was a little irresponsible. Also, good
catch on the song of fire and ice from GofT! In the next episode I actually hope
Maisie’s character evolves away from being so similar a character.

@denvaldron Thanks professor! I like your lessons.

[lisa @replies]

@ozitenor 3 helmets dropped down? Good grief Charlie Brown! You really do have to watch
this a frame at a time! I think that last thing he said in the Tardis about the hybrid
started out about Ashildr and ended up as a possible revelation about Clara. I’m not sure
they are the same but there could be some connection.

Thanks for the sonic explanation too 🙂

[lisa @replies]

@nerys Thanks. Just re-watched and saw that they captured 2 helmets in the magnet trap.
@purofilion When the Doctor said “if anybody had a problem with that…” I was
thinking he may of meant the Time Lords?

Just realizing that I seem to have also missed what happened to the broken sonic sunglasses.
Did the Doctor get those back?

[lisa @replies]

Wasn’t the Dalek nano tech in Clara sort doing the same thing as the chip inside Ashildr?
I believe Missy said something like that to Clara when she was installing her in the Dalek.
Maybe this is why the Doctor doesn’t give another chip to Clara? So this is definitely
a ‘thing” happening twice within a few episodes.
Ashildr said she made all those ‘puppets’ as replacements of the people she knows that died.
Now being immortal that’s so prophetic because she will have to watch everyone around her dying.
Very sad and ironic. Because the Doctor said he was sick of losing people and has an emotional
moment over Ashildr death. after all he may not be human but he is humanoid.
So can this effect the Clara ending? Remember the thing with mirrors? I have a notion about
Clara and Ashildr mirroring each other and just who was these girls mother? Ia that a connection?

[Author]

Posts