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@ichabod

4th viewing tonight (a little obsessed now I think).

yes he definitely remembers each incarnation but he only remembers when he gets to the wall – never before.  That alone must be torture for him.

@mudlark

You’re spot on about a rebirth when he leaves the dial. It fits in with some of this series themes of inversion and death and rebirth. Missy does say in TMA that the dial will open when the doctor dies however the opposite is true.
<p style=”text-align: left;”>It occurs to me that the dial acts as a grieving process for the doctor. I think he feels responsible for Clara’s death and each iteration of him symbolises a person playing out the same situation over and over again hoping for a different outcome … to no avail, until he reaches acceptance that she’s not coming back at which time he starts to move forward. Bugger, now I will have to watch a fifth time to see if he actually plays out all the stages of grief.</p>
@puroandson

maybe Just Puro will remember the music from the fifth doctor better than myself. The synth piece that occurs whilst the veil is approaching the doctor as he views Clara’s portrait. A call back to the Davidson era? (around the time of Adric)

 

 

[spacedmunkee @replies]

Thanks @countscarlioni

[spacedmunkee @replies]

So I’ve watched Heaven Sent 3 times now. On each rewatch I thought I might get impatient and forward to the end but I didn’t. Each time I was drawn into the story and the puzzle that the Doctor has to solve.

So my thoughts echo most people’s. Absolutely brilliant. Best piece of television I’ve seen in a very long time.

My favourite part was the evolution of the Grimm story. At first the Doctor had barely started the story before dying but as he chipped away at the wall, the veil had slightly further to walk to reach him. Every step the doctor made through the wall enabled a little more of the shepherd boy’s story to be revealed. The total story not revealed until the very end when he breaks through. Beautifully done.

My take on the confession dial. We know how clever the doctor is. I presume that no-one else in the universe could construct a situation that draws a confession from him. I think that the dials are another pod designed to tap into a TL’s own fears so each dial is unique to the person in it. The person in the dial chooses their own hell/torture/purgatory – take your pick. It’s possible he was only in the dial for several days at most.

In essence the doctor was battling with himself. Clara’s death almost caused him to give up for once. In his own mind it took him billions of years to process it and come out the other side.

Question 1. In his last conversation with Clara when he realises what it will take to get out, he mentions that he remembers it all – or words to that effect. Does he mean he remembers every life he has spent in the dial, or he remembers every Claricle? I still cannot make out what he is saying.

Question 2. What was written on the wall behind the Doctor when he first sees the veil? He never acknowledged it. I tried pausing the tele but it was too blurred to read. Have any eagle eye fans with better resolution been able to make it out?

So bonkers theory time. It was the Sisterhood of Karn who made a deal with Mayor Me on behalf of the Doctor. The Doctor will have to set in motion the events that lead him to Gallifrey. It will break his heart because he will realise he is responsible for Clara’s death.

Gotta say I’m looking forward to the finale as much as that little space movie due out in a couple of weeks 😀

[spacedmunkee @replies]

I finally watched the prologue to this series, which by the way, debunks my theory of the confession dial being a bootstrap paradox. But anyway, at one stage The Doctor says “An enemy is just a friend you don’t know yet”.

This series has had a theme of reversal/inversion/opposites – call it what you will but to me, it adds greater meaning to the above statement.

So “A friend is just an enemy you don’t know yet”

I don’t know what will happen and I don’t want to know too much until I watch it on TV but I think they basically told us everything we need to know in the first 2 minutes of the series.

[spacedmunkee @replies]

For those who like their rock n roll can I suggest you try out a band call The Tea Party. I’m sure all you Canadians out there already know of them. Here’s some samples of the best work

I had the pleasure of seeing these guys last weekend at the Enmore Theatre in Sydney.

The reason I’ve posted this is because they were touring for their 20th anniversary of their album “Edges of Twilight” which has a lot of imagery relating to statues and angels. I wore my Weeping angels t-shirt to the gig and thought it funny that everyone there probably thought it was a t-shirt for that album – not Doctor Who.

Anyway, after the concert, I remembered they had a song called “Raven Skies” so I looked up the lyrics.

I am walking on to the place of the light.
And the things I see with the starlight sight.
In the dance of the fires in the flames I see,
Under raven skies she will sleep with me.

And I need her now and I need you.
Welcome to my garden and what do you see?
Welcome to my garden do you still see me?

I am looking through through the dance of the trees.
I experience what a shaman sees.
I’ve returned within I’ve returned with sight.
Under raven skies I will sleep tonight.

And I need her now and I need you.
Welcome to my garden and what do you see?
Welcome to my garden do you still see me?

And I need her now.
Welcome to my garden and what do ya see
Welcome to my garden do you still see me?
Welcome to my garden and what do you see?
Welcome to my garden do you still see me?
Do you still see me?

 

so my bonkers theory for tonight is that Moffat is a fan of The Tea Party 🙂

Enjoy!

[spacedmunkee @replies]

@purofilion @nerys

Now that I have looked up the meaning of Scatological 🙂 yes that would make sense to me, particularly if it was actually of British origin. It sort of fits in with the undergraduate humour that I grew up watching with shows like The Young Ones, Goodies, Blackadder etc etc. No biting satire on the existing socio and/or political landscape of the time was complete without a poo, bum or fart joke

[spacedmunkee @replies]

Howdy all,

It’s Friday night and it’s beer o’clock so just jumped in to share a thought I had. I wasn’t sure which forum was most appropriate for this so I’ll dump it here.

I re-watched TMA the other day and something about the Doctor’s statements that he is A doctor, plus the continual serpent imagery throughout the series set off a lightbulb moment where I pictured the image of a snake coiled around a staff. There are 2 symbols of serpents wrapped around a staff, one with and one without wings, that are commonly used in the medical industry. I started looking around and found the following link which seemed to provide a decent comparison of both symbols. It’s interesting that both mythologies mentioned feed into this series’ arcs and themes in one way or another.

http://drblayney.com/Asclepius.html

I’m unaccustomed to having an independent thoughts such as these so I’m feeling pretty chuffed with myself. But in typing this, there is a very strong chance this has already been discussed and debated ad nauseum here, in which case I’ll slink back into my corner and drink my beer quietly.

[spacedmunkee @replies]

@purofilion @nerys

Heh! All the important issues covered here 😉

Today’s the first time I’ve heard “pants” used in that context.  Is it a British thing?

I heard Rowan Atkinson (I think) talking once about language in comedy and that using the word “underpants” is inherently more funny than using the word “underwear”.

 

[spacedmunkee @replies]

I posted a while back that I think the confession dial is a bootstrap paradox. Now with all the talk about Clara’s demise, I am wondering of the confession dial is hers. Given previous storylines where Clara impersonates the Doctor, I wouldn’t put it past them to do the same here.

[spacedmunkee @replies]

@doctordoctorwho

ahh yes. Just rewatched with volume up<i>.</i> Too many concerts and loud music over the years has taken its toll on my hearing. Thanks for clearing it up

[spacedmunkee @replies]

When you watch DW for long enough, any part of an episode no matter how insignificant can appear to be a reference or call back to another episode or story arc. But hey that’s half the fun of DW – trying to figure out what is relevant, what is not, and what fuels the next round of bonkers theories which is done so beautifully in this forum.

So again with the pods. It seems like every story this year has some sort of pod (or Dalek)  that someone is placed in.

Was the guy making the video talking to us thus breaking the fourth wall again this season?

More references to it all being another story.

Similar settings and similar looking monsters as Journey to the centre of the Tardis in which Clara was seen to die in the future.

The sleep in Clara’s eye is a little like Amy Pond’s predicament in time of angels when she had the weeping angel in her eye.

The doctor equating awake and asleep to life and death so a reference to ashildr who will never “sleep” and the consequences of this.

The computers insistence on the soldier singing the “Song” . Seemed like an obscure piece to add to the story.

The doctor appears to have an warped perception of time. When trapped in the cold store he asks the soldier what she said 18 minutes ago, when it was really only a couple of minutes. Similar to the longest month of his life when he thought Clara was dead in the previous episode.

He tells Clara she has so much to look forward to with an impending catastrophe. I had the impression that this will  happen closer to the 38th century rather than in Clara’s lifetime. . . unless she is already immortal but does not know it because her memory was wiped of it being implanted in her (kudos to someone else in this forum for suggesting that. Sorry can’t remember who).

Can anyone answer me this? When Clara names the monsters “Sandmen” and the doctor is upset because he normally names them, he then mentions how the situation was similar to what happened with the Silurians. I could not see a link between this situation and any previous storylines involving Silurians. Could anyone else?

 

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Random thought. In The Magicians Apprentice and Witch’s Familiar, the doctor barely acknowledged the confession dial when presented to him by Missy. What if the doctor has not actually sent the dial to missy yet (in relation to his own current timeline). This would mean he is yet to send it to Missy. As he takes possession of the dial when escaping Skaro he now has the dial that he sends to Missy later thus creating another bootstrap paradox.

Bonkers theory. Like the Osgood box, there’s nothing on the dial. It is the maguffin that enables Missy and Clara to track down the doctor. The doctor has to make an impossible choice. Send the dial and set in motion events played out this series that lead to Clara’s death and regeneration into the hybrid. Or worse, don’t send the dial and suffer some other consequences not yet revealed.

[spacedmunkee @replies]

Just got home from AC/DC concert in Sydney. Such a great band. They sounded the same as the last time I saw them 20 years ago. Wondering if anyone out there has seen them recently and what they thought of them

[spacedmunkee @replies]

@purofilion

After typing out the below I decided I better move this to the sofa as I was getting a bit political, (which I don’t normally do).

re Osgoods death. Yes, the emotional payoff was massive. At the time I had forgotten about zygon Osgood and was disappointed that they had killed her off. Then I remembered and denial kicked in and hoped it was the Zygon that died. From memory this denial was echoed by a lot of people online at the time (a lot like another recent “death” in one of my favourite shows last week).

But now after mulling over it for a week, and recovering from the blunt force trauma I received from the episode’s not so subtle jabs, I’m seeing that my reaction is similar to the attitudes commonly seen these days where one persons life is valued more highly than someone elses depending on race, culture, creed, sexuality etc etc.

The death of either Osgood should draw the same emotion.

This makes me think that missy’s “enemy inside the friend” comment could be seen as a reference to the enemy inside oneself, or that the enemy we perceive does not exist in the way we think and is mostly drawn from our own fears (or prejudices) rather than anything real. Also, it’s could be a reference to the continual confusion that we see these days – largely conveyed by mainstream media about who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. I mean apparently Putin is now a hero after bombing Syria! Who nose? Being told that “these guys over here are bad guys” makes it easier to accept their deaths when we read/see/hear about it.

So after my rant,  latest bonkers theory – Missy selected Clara to save the doctor from becoming the Valeyard (hence Amazing Grace reference). Missy knows that there’s a Yin and Yang thing going on between her and the doctor

Cheers

[spacedmunkee @replies]

I think the Osgood puzzle is an interesting one. I doubt we will ever find out which one she is, and maybe that is the point. It shouldn’t matter whether she is human or Zygon. If anyone was to find out, then perceptions of her may change with possible judgments made. “Oh, she’s Zygon. Can I trust her?”.

Imagine identical twins, both raised as catholic but later in life one of them converts to Islam. If someone was to meet one of them and ask “Hey, which one are you? the Catholic or the Muslim?” Would they reject the question?Possibly. They may feel the answer is not something that should define them in the eyes of the questioner. If they are peaceful then they should be accepted as an equal citizen of the world without question.

[spacedmunkee @replies]

When Ashildr mentions a death is required to activate the amulet the doctor says something like

Every death causes a tiny fracture in reality

a fracture. . .  like a ripple.

Now how many Claricles have died throughout history saving the doctor?

Enough to create a tidal wave?

@starla

yes I thought it strange that ashildr would be so dismissive of Clara, given she helped her and was so nice to her in previous episode. Possibly she was jealous that the doctor chooses to travel with a “Mayfly” rather than her

 

[spacedmunkee @replies]

Thanks @fatmaninabox but am in Oz. A quick search has resulted in me finding the podcast.  Got so much catching up to do. I love this Information Age we live in 😉

[spacedmunkee @replies]

@fatmaninabox

was too busy squeeing my pants at ‘the news’. It took 3 swift mugs of coffee to calm me down

Are you talking about Tennant’s new audio dramas. I’ve never listened to any but that seems like a good place to start.

Careful anyone googling Doctor Who news. The second article in my search result mentioned potential serious spoilers for the series end. The Mirror started the article with “Spoilers. . .” Then gave it away in the heading rather than after redirecting. I had no chance to look away. Damn this Information age we live in!

 

[spacedmunkee @replies]

After reflecting on the ending of the episode where Ashildr can be seen in the photo, I got a “Watcher” vibe from her. It made me feel uneasy just like first time the Watcher appeared so long ago. That sense of foreboding. . .

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@purofilion

in this house, dodgy horror = good horror but I stopped watching the paranormal movies at about number 4 I think. Watched a cracker the other week called “It Follows”. Check it out if you have a chance.

interesting time for Aussie cricket. Golden age definitely over but I’m hopeful some of these kids will stand up and if the Mitch’s fire it should be a good summer.

There will be some ups and downs for a while but there’s some good young talent around.

 

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@puroflion.

Lol. No footy here in Oz now (unless you like soccer – but let’s not revisit that thread). Waiting for cricket season to get into full swing.

theres so many snake/serpent/dragon references in human history. I find it amazing that nearly every culture has them part of their mythology. It must tap into something primal going back to when our ancestors first crawled out of the ocean.

I’m not sure what Clara will finally evolve into but for some reason I fear that the loop will mean the doctor will have to let her die so that she can be born.

Oh man, just had a thought connecting  Clara “saving” the doctor and him giving ashildr a second chip so she wouldn’t be alone. What if Clara “saves” a version of the doctor in the library computer so River has a companion for eternity. Will leave that one be for now. Getting too late for bonkers theories.
<p style=”text-align: left;”>Yes, movie sounds good. Need to find a new sci fi movie to watch but I think my wife has plans for a dodgy horror flick. Either will work for a Friday.</p>
<p style=”text-align: left;”>Cheers</p>
 

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@purofilion

<p style=”text-align: left;”>So, if people don’t like her all that much, it makes me ask, what do they so dislike in themselves?</p>

<p style=”text-align: left;”>Exactly! Maybe that’s what has the doctor so concerned. His line about there being room for only one doctor may have been putting Clara back in place but also a subtle swipe by the makers regarding the beast it has created for itself. Again – feeding back into itself. . . Like a snake eating its own tail 😉</p>

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@purofilion

To keep with the recent musical theme, “Ramble On” I say.

Well said and I think it sums up how a lot of fans feel.

Your comments re our connection to DW have spurred my to put my jumbled thoughts into some sort of coherent post.

One of the the ways the audience connects with DW is via the companions. Since the show originally started the main companion(s) have always been human or human looking. Us as the audience see the Doctor through through their eyes. This is evident to me through my childhood where, like most of us, I grew up role playing as my favourite heroes, but my memory was that I did not want to be the Doctor in those games. I wanted to be myself and be one of his companions. I wonder if others thought the same way.

Its no secret this mechanism for capturing an audience was purposely crafted by the original creators because they felt most people would not relate to the doctor so the human companion was essential to the shows success.

This brings me to Clara who seems to have copped a disproportionate amount of criticism from most corners of the Interweb imho.

Whether it is warranted or not, the evolution of her character has been fascinating and in a lot of ways mirrors the evolution of us the viewer over the years. Her development of IT skills being one example. Her hunger for adventures and confidence in questioning and/or guiding the doctor also parallels the DW audience who are constantly hungry for more stories, more content, more information and more active in voicing their thoughts and opinions which surely shapes the product that BCC must provide to their customers.

After a couple of more accessible doctors in Tennant and Smith, Capaldi’s doctor is a little further removed from us, bringing the companion back to the forefront.

Everyones entitled to their opinion about Clara and people are certainly allowed to digest the show in any way that provides them with enjoyment but  I do wonder about fans that throw around words like “hate” with nothing substantial to back it up. Maybe these are more casual fans who prefer their doctor to be front and centre. Or maybe they just don’t like her which fair enough.

No  disrespect meant to anyone who doesn’t like something about the show because everyone has their own tastes and opinions which adds so much colour to the overall experience of being a DW fan. This subsequently feeds back into the loop between fans and showmakers I mentioned above.

Now that I have that off my chest, time for the weekend to begin. Happy Friday everyone!

 

[spacedmunkee @replies]

Thanks DWF. Only a couple of days since joining and I have now been infected with Bonkers Theory nanogenes 😄

Ashildr = Tasha Lem?

Credit to someone who I can’t locate right now who mentioned the connection between the chip placed on her forehead and the Dalek stems. This reminded me of Tasha, who appeared immortal, was in charge of an army, had history with the doctor, and was also responsible for rejoining Clara with the Doctor when he was dying, followed by a regeneration that created a tidal wave. Some similarities there. Maybe that’s why the doctor recognised her. It also got me thinking of the theme of something being placed inside people’s forehead or people’s foreheads opening. This goes back to season 1 (AG) in “The Long Game” I’m probably giving the showmakers too much credit for playing out something over 8 seasons but at times I’ve felt RTD and co. were playing a very long game.

That should keep the nanogenes at bay for a while 😄

[spacedmunkee @replies]

One more thing, we had the doctor telling us he “saves people”. We have a girl who is a storyteller who possibly wrote books now stored in the largest library in the galaxy. We have a Doctor involved in some serious time meddling. Would this Doctor consider changing other events from his own timeline. <insert bonkers River theory here>.

 

[spacedmunkee @replies]

Is it just me or was Odin’s appearance in the sky very Pythonesque. I was half expecting him to send the Doctor on a quest to seek the Holy Grail. If it was a nod, then there’s another (albeit very loose and obscure) reference to serpents.

Also, more references to the doctors memory. Apart from the link to fires of Pompeii, I can’t help but think this is still linked to the Clara’s/Claricles repeating message to the Doctor “Run you clever boy, and remember” I always felt this was a weirdly constructed statement. Possible that this should not be read as one statement, and reads better as three separate messages meant for the doctor at three different times. He may have to remember other things he has forgotten before the end of this series

Overall, I enjoyed the ep. Nicely paced and felt like a normal DW romp but with some real depth in parts. Had the closure you expect from a one parter but with added excitement of leaving us hanging for more.

I did notice similarities between this Ep and “The Doctor’s Daughter” ie a girl born to fight who is something special and has so much more to offer, her death and resurrection, having to make her own way without the doctor.

Also, another reference by the Doctor of his “duty of care” to Clara. Add this with his admission to Davros that he is “a doctor”, does he see Clara as a patient, or sick or maybe still grieving. But as I’m typing this I’m realising it’s probably his own way of telling her he cares for her.

[spacedmunkee @replies]

Hey guys,

Newly joined but long time follower.

Is there a connection between the serpent on the wall and the location of the base? The base is in a “loch” in Scotland. . . right??

The doctor has had some experience with giant monsters in Scotland before. It will be interesting to see how far back in time the doctor travels to arrive before the flood – will it overlap with the 4th doctor’s adventures with the Zygons in the mid 70’s?

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