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    Anonymous @

    @juniperfish the other epigrammatic phrase I had in mind and which I confuse with Callimachus is Cephalus (but originally from Sophocles) whereby ‘love is a cruel and terrible master, one loses oneself for the love of another but in doing so is enslaved to the most capricious of all gods”. That is Clara and Danny, too. But it’s Missy as well ..what has she lost or gained and then lost again to be so heavy with the ‘burden of self’. So we could have apocalyptic horseman or, equally, @phaseshift  -Plato’s four divine madnesses.

    Certainly the Doctor is burdened by self and I imagine the claricles and Clara is also which is leading to her possibly lying (well, ‘kay, definitely lying) and goin’ slightly off her head…?

    ScaryB @scaryb

    Agree with @idiotsavon – good spot from @janetteb re miniaturisation this series.

    <waves @Purofilion > Great to see you back Puro, sorry you’ve been ill. Hope the drugs are working 😉 I think maybe this series has been about putting a bit of distance between us and the Doctor, in terms of re-establishing him as more alien. But I agree that Capaldi’s been great, I love his portrayal. I also think it’s been a slow unveil/discovery which culminated in the speech at the end of tonight’s episode when he fully took on the mantle of the Doctor.  His delivery of it was interesting, compared with similar speeches from Smith and Tennant – authoritative with less swagger (I thought).


    Re watched the episode.  At the start, the guy on the phone distinctly said “I figured out who HE is”.  I’m leaning more towards the he is the master and the master is the she.

    That sentence confused the hell out of me – especially given your general confusion over gender!! 😀 (Welcome to the forum btw)

    Anonymous @

    @idiotsavon indeed we do -but yes, he is not ‘the gay and happy with abandon gent of ages past’ (M. Drabble) but slightly distant and disassociated too.

    @scaryb good point. I think that Missy could be a collection of atoms re-created into a whole sub universe with Seb and Missy as creator when Clara became the Imposs Girl.

    If the Sycamore Leaf as mentioned by @phaseshift was the one on which Clara blew into this world and is also the tree related to Egyptian rites and then is connected to the Isis Story, Clara is the ‘one archetype’ or ‘no-division’.

    She commences to put things back to together whilst Missy is the opposite -tangling and pulling things apart. To have one we must have the other to create balance in the universe.

    Anonymous @

    @scaryb yes I see but I wonder if the distance is…um different? So therefore is not distance at all? I’m not clear (well, rarely am I) but I suggest that we see him for who he is and that nature, the compelling difference between him (as alien) and us makes the distance something which matters less – we don’t need to decipher him with all that running and jumping and epileptic moving that Smithy did (he was still so alien and we forgot it which puts us on the back foot?): he may be ‘in the distance’ but it narrows and is close, and what we see has perfect lines. Reminds of the European light -clear with every lineament drawn precisely. Here in Oz, there’s haze and fuzziness. Kindest, p.

    Anonymous @

    *reminds me of the European light… Sorry folks. It occurs to me it must be very early in the morning for you viewers/ posters in the UK -and cold!  Heck it’s mid-morning here and I generally go to bed at about 9 pm. Do we have ppl up at 3am generally? I noticed in the UK when on visits that I was saying “chums g’night’ when they would say “hey what? We’re heading down the road for a drinkie it’s only 10 pm and we start work at 9. Come with us!” eer?

    ScaryB @scaryb

    @Purofilion I agree the distance is different.  Twelve’s immediate predecessors gave the illusion of more human, approachable (huggable) Doctor (as you say) – which is not to run down either of their portrayals (it’s what Capaldi is building on). I just really like the slow build in what PC is doing. I suspect there may also be elements of – let’s take Colin’s turn as #6 and show how it could have been done.

    You say –

    I think that Missy could be a collection of atoms re-created into a whole sub universe with Seb and Missy as creator when Clara became the Imposs Girl.

    Wow! My little brain’s not coping with that!! (Been out, too much alcohol to compute 😉  )

    Love your comments about light in different places.  I love the delicacy of light in the north; someone told me it’s to do with lightwaves being seen differently (longer/shorter) according to the curvature of the earth so it appears a different colour depending on which latitude you’re at. And depending on the light leakage from cities as well.

    lisa @lisa

    Adams family much on the train tracks with the Doctor’s hand !! loved the “homage” to Thing !!
    The scene with Missy- there was a symbol behind her on the wall/door- a great big circle and little tiny circle attached to the left bottom and I wonder is that is a clue – like maybe a Galifreyan thing or maybe like a cyberman eye- – it didn’t really look very much like the inside of the Tardis to me like someone else mentioned in the thread – does that symbol ring any bells for anyone ? There was something reflected in the big window to the left behind Missy but it was so very fuzzy
    Also the Clara my Clara line is something the Doctor said when he was still the 11th
    Well more later

    Anonymous @

    Robin Hood I think I just soiled myself!!! 🙄


    Can’t say anything, Need Head Explody Emoticon!

    :mrgreen: 🙂 😀 😎 😛 😮 😯



    lisa @lisa

    Tried zooming in on the window behind Missy on her left and it looks like there are markings in the little circle sort of similar to Galifreyan markings and that to me means Time Lady ! Maybe also a Cyberman controller like Miss Hartigan was ?

    would it be too spoilery to say we get a new clue next episode cause I checked and Missy is in the cast–

    lisa @lisa

    If she is the lady in the shop that means she can get out of the Nethersphere- If she has been watching Clara since then on her ipad [lol-really?] then how is she able to do that- and finally why is the Doctor trying to train Clara to be more like him?
    Totally loving all the Mystery- this season is full of that genre !
    It adds a lot of depth to the whole series for me
    So far these last two episodes have been the best ones for me
    If SM wants to retire this Mathieson dude might be very able to do a pretty decent job of it

    Anonymous @


    If SM wants to retire this Mathieson dude might be very able to do a pretty decent job of it

    I agree!  What a terrific start.

    I always give SM most of the credit though.  That is probably not true, but I like it better that way.  If SM isn’t the Real Life Mad Man in a Box, then I don’t really want to know the truth.  I think if I understood too much of the behind the scenes stuff, then it would ruin the magic on screen.  I don’t want that to happen.

    It was so cool how Rigsy was clearly a shoutout to Banksy. 

    Did anyone else wonder if Banksy was in the episode someplace?  I wonder if SM knows Banksy’s secret identity now. And maybe Banksy painted some of the walls too. 

    I am happy with just the thought.  Learning Bansky’s secret identity, would be like learning the Doctor’s real name. That would ruin the fun.  😕



    lisa @lisa

    @Barnable- last fall there was a story going around that Banksy was in New York City driving around in this big truck with these different art “installations” in them – he was also doing wall art around town – don’t know if it was just some story or for real but the guy in the truck said he was the artist!?

    The Beast @glenisterm

    Overall I enjoyed the episode.  After the first few weak scripts, and that horrible Kill the Moon, things are starting to look up.  An original script, with some good ideas, although the ending was a little abrupt.

    A few thoughts:

    – could the Dead Man’s Handle really be defeated by Clara that quickly and easily?  I’ve seen movies where they talk about the new system they use because the DMH was too easy to get around.

    – why did everyone have to take the Tardis to get out of the tunnels?  I liked the way the older Doctors were reluctant to admit that they were Time Lords, and would only let companion candidates into the Tardis.  Even Matt’s Doctor was erasing history of himself.

    – will we run into any more Clara duplicates?  There should be a lot more out there, unless they are confined to all the Doctors prior to Matt.  That would make for some interesting episodes.

    – since the boneless could turn 3D people into 2D images, why couldn’t they turn a 2D image into 3D?  I realize it wasn’t a real door, but the logic works both ways since the people weren’t real images.  Not that important, but it was a question.

    – Of course the big question is who our mystery lady is.  How can she keep track of the Doctor’s whereabouts without him knowing?  Why is she saving androids and dead policemen?  Is there a connection to River Song (and will she make an appearance in this Doctor’s timeline)?  The Time Lord/Master theory is possible, especially since we don’t know what happened to his Tardis.  Is there going to be some kind of judgement made on the Doctor with those elements serving as evidence?  Is she related to GUS, or is that another mystery villain?  Who else has access to the Doctor’s phone number?

    Up until these last couple of episodes, the Doctor hasn’t seemed to be as on the ball as he usually would be.  He didn’t clue in that Clara was involved with Mr. Pink, he wrongly assumed she was interested in another teacher, he didn’t pick up on her lies, etc.  It was only in the last couple of episodes that he showed he was definitely more intelligent than Clara.

    I do find Clara’s character a bit odd.  A little too confident and too relaxed in dangerous situations perhaps?  I guess she doesn’t come across as a ‘real person’ to me.

    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @Bluesqueakpip- it is rather odd with Clara and Danny. Danny himself in this episode was rather sweet, I thought. Disappointed at missing a people watching session with Clara, and, I think, not being a complete idiot, he worked out where she was (in a manner of speaking.) His ‘where are you, and are you in trouble’ was completely calm, with just a hint of ‘will you please stop lying to me at some point in the relationship’.

    The reason he thinks she’s quite traveling with the doctor, after all, is because she told him she had had enough and was going to quit. All he’s actually asked her to do is be honest with him. I’m still finding her switch at the end of last weeks episode a little disturbing. Is Missy, in fact, messing with her in some way? Clara has in the past been uploaded, is there still some link?

    GothamCelt @gothamcelt

    Thought that was very good and original. A few points. I actually thought Clara was good in this episode, which surprised me. Perhaps it is the Clara/Danny  Hollyoaks thing that grates. I do agree, however, that she is a bit too dialogue smart in situations where she really ought to be more concerned.

    Now some bonkers stuff. There was an earlier discussion about how this series was channeling myths and folk tales. We saw more of that in this episode and the trailer for the next. Here- as someone has already pointed out – we saw a reference to Alice and the ‘Drink Me’ potion. We have already seen references to Robin Hood and a dragon. I am sure there are others. Next episode shows a girl I a red coat running into a dangerous  forest. And we all know what’s in there – The (Big) Bad Wolf.

    The Beast @glenisterm

    I sometimes find Peter Capaldi reminds me of Tim the Enchanter:


    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    I suspect there may also be elements of – let’s take Colin’s turn as #6 and show how it could have been done.

    If that was the strapline Moffat was giving to his writers, it becomes obvious why everyone was saying ‘you need Peter Capaldi’.

    I don’t really like the ‘Clara as alcoholic’ thingy because it does have an aura of female transgressiveness about it. But if it’s part of the Doctor’s arc, that would make sense. He starts by saying “She cares so I don’t have to.” Clara is his carer. He doesn’t want to care; if there’s one thing he learnt in his previous incarnation, it’s that caring will end up hurting him badly.

    But then he starts to recover from his regeneration trauma – and Clara becomes ill. Addiction is an illness. So he has to become her ‘carer’. Especially since part of the reason that Clara’s picking up all his bad qualities is that these are the only ones currently ‘on show’.

    Like a grandchild, she admires him and tries to copy him.

    [:: waves at @Purofilion and hopes the stay in hospital wasn’t too boring ::]

    Anonymous @

    Hello @glenisterm – A few thoughts. 😆

    Very few thoughts indeed, but plenty of stupid questions.

    Not worth reposting most of them, so I will just number them and answer them in order.

    1. yes 2. They already saw the Tardis reappear right in front of them and the Doctor kill the monsters. I think the secret was out of the bag at that point. 3. No and I disagree, it would suck imo 4. They turned real 3D people into real 2D people (they were still real people in both cases). They could not turn unreal 2D drawings of objects into real 2D or 3D objects. 5. Not sure which mystery lady you are talking about. I assume it is Missy. 5a) Dr. might be her boyfriend, so she would know him in that case 5b) she is starting a new band of village people 5c1) probably not 5c2) maybe 5d) maybe e) read the MotOE thread 5f) WitS and Psi.

     You wouldn’t have so many questions if you tried reading some forum posts. You would definitely know character’s names at least.

     Nicely stated opinions about the Clara and the 12.

    The Beast @glenisterm

    1. I guess British trains are simpler than American ones – See ‘Taking of Pelham 1 2 3’ where overcoming the dead mans handle was complicated because they don’t want people to be able to send unmanned trains on tracks, ie. collisions, etc.

    2. What secret?  Certainly they saw something they couldn’t explain, but that doesn’t mean you have to fill in the gaps.  I should know, I’m a magician.  If I do a trick people can’t explain, I’m not obligated to explain it or invite them back to my place.  Besides, were the stairs broken?

    3. What, Clara saving Clara, or Clara working with Clara wouldn’t be any better than the episode where a guy thought he was the Doctor, and the Doctor had to check how many hearts the guy had to be sure.

    4. Depends on the process involved.  If one is converting a real object into a 2D picture, then the process could be reversed.  If on the other hand the real object is converted into a non-painted 2D image, then a painted 2D image would not be convertible and I concede your point.

    5b. lol

    So why were ‘plenty’ of my questions stupid?  I’ll concede #4, and perhaps #3 if they keep using the writer(s) as the first few episodes of this season, but I’m writing this at 2 am in Canada so you’ll have to forgive some laziness as far as reading/names go as its late.

    Serahni @serahni

    That was great fun!  So much so that I’m annoyed I left my iPad at my cousin’s because I want to rewatch it on iView right away.  The season finale seems to be approaching at a much faster rate and the more we see of Missy, the more sinister she seems.  I really do get the feeling that all of this season is going to make sense once we see it in its entirety and these gripes that are arising, even from me, about choices that have been made and who does and doesn’t have the limelight, will make sense when the final curtain closes.  At least I hope so.  It at least seems like we’re being set up for a rollercoaster ride to the end.

    Next week’s looks fun too!

    Anonymous @

    @glenisterm – I concede your point that they were not really stupid questions really, they just seemed pointless since most of the answers are posted already on the forum. So, I could tell that you didn’t read the posts and that made your post sound more like The Troll’s instead of The Beast’s. Sorry for the mistake.

    I can understand not everyone has time to read all the posts. There is some really great stuff posted, so if you get the time it is worth it.

     I’m glad you laughed 5b that was a joke. There are much better theories posted to answer that.

    1. ‘Taking of Pelham 1 2 3′ is an action thriller movie (from wiki). So another fictional story is your proof for how DMHs work? If not, then like you said it might be different in Britain or different in DW fictional world. There are much tougher things to believe than a little handle.
    2. What secret?  Exactly, Clara filled them in when she was planning how to bring the Tardis back to real size. The secrets were gone. And even if not completely gone, the Doctor gave a train load of people a ride last episode (unless he lied again), so it fits his character.  I think the main point is that you wish it was still like the BG Doctors on not giving rides to strangers, but no explanation is going to change your opinion on that. So did you really want the answer? Or was that a stupid pointless question.
    3. It is possible Claricles could be around still. I don’t think so. I think Claricles are all gone now, because 12 has a new set of regenerations. New reginerations could mean new time line (or at least an addition). This new time line or addition didn’t exist until after Clara left the Dr’s time stream. So no Claricles should be around now, since this part of the Doctor’s time stream didn’t even exist until after TotD.

     There are other theories that could explain how it is still possible though. I just don’t think so. I don’t think it would be interesting for stories either, because Clara died all of the time when she was a Claricle. It would become too much like “Oh no, they killed Kenny!” to me. And another reason is, I like the real Clara much better than the Claricles.

    4.    If on the other hand the real object is converted into a non-painted 2D image, then a painted 2D image would not be convertible and I concede your point. Yes that is the answer.

     Maybe it’s because you are a magician makes it tougher for you, but you have to suspend your disbelief a little in DW.  I’m pretty sure you already know that (fan since 1976). 

    I hope you see the irony in magicians being so sceptical, since the show is just like a magic trick to me, that’s why most people don’t like spoilers, it ruins the trick. 😉

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @pedant – you may have staked marmite, but

    I made no marmite stakes. I was still smarting from the loss of my ‘Clara is the Doctor’ theory – which now turns out to be unexpectedly correct. Okay, I didn’t see that one returning. 😈

    Mirroring. Clara’s his mirror image. And Missy is very probably the Master’s new regeneration.

    Does this connect somehow to ‘reverse engineering’? Is Missy trying to reverse engineer a Doctor?

    Anonymous @

    @scaryb you’re quite right about that speech, upon listening to it again (rather than head up against speakers squinting at the screen (much like the Dr out the Tardis) I found it was The Doctor…da-da da-da duuum arriving!  Spectacular. Wudda loved more. But then I always will with this Dr. Gosh, the funny lines and the mad Greek chorus in the form of  Team Council Bristol with his yelling and helling was wunderbar.

    I must admit Clara talking on the phone with Dan The Man and then singing “see you” as she crashes out the window were Pythonesque.

    Brilliant. Fantastico. What’s next?

    A little widdle Tardis. Aw. @janetteb magnifico with miniaturisation theory. And Missy, she aint good. Could there be two bads? Danny and Missy or will Dan be just fine and indeed save Clara to atone for whatever he did on ‘his bad day’?



     I got the impression from this that she is not trying to hide her “addiction”, but genuinely feels like she is protecting Danny by lying to him.

    Yeah, that’s pretty much classic addicts rationalisation – the person the addict lies most to is herself.


    Re the train and dead man’s handle – modern trains have varying degrees of automated protection, post-Paddington. The DMU used here was conspicuously not modern (slam doors and all,).

    PhileasF @phileasf

    I liked it.

    I’m a little perplexed by complaints that the show is too much about Clara these days. The show started as the companions’ story in 1963, and only really became the Doctor’s story when Ian and Barbara left. After years of companions without ‘arcs’, it became the companion’s story again in Dragonfire (1987) and ever since. I’d say the balance right now is about the same as its been through the whole of the AG series (and the last few seasons of the BG series), with the exception of those specials where the Doctor travelled alone.

    An interesting difference is that Clara has an ‘adult relationship’ on the go while she’s travelling with the Doctor, while other companions the post-Dragonfire show has focused on had child/parent or sibling relationships. It is as though the Doctor and his adventures are essentially childlike, so he tends to surround himself with childlike companions. Clara stands out, as a grown-up interloper in our children’s world.

    My theory that Missy works for the Doctor — running a pseudo-afterlife where the Doctor’s sending people he’s rescued after they appeared to die during his adventures — took a hit this week. But I think I can deal with it. After all, Clara had just saved the Doctor (and the world). Missy can still be on the Doctor’s side: she chose Clara well, because Clara’s a good protector for the Doctor. The snort and the… well, evil laughter… well, that’s just… would you believe, cultural difference? Where she comes from, snorts and evil laughter are perfectly ordinary everyday noises that anyone might make. Bwa hahahaaa! Like that.

    OK, I’m less convinced of that theory now, but I think it’s still a possibility, and the snort and seemingly evil laughter are just misdirection. Or was she working for him, but has now Gone Bad?

    Missy’s tablet. Has she hacked the Doctor’s optic nerve? (We saw Clara on Missy’s screen, but not the Doctor.) Does he know about this? There has been a recurring theme this year of performing for unseen watchers/listeners (the Listeners, the Architect and GUS). Was the Doctor’s obsession with the hidden listeners in Listen sparked by a sense that he’s being watched?

    In season 6 the Teselecta was established in Let’s Kill Hitler and then became the solution to the season arc. I wonder if a lot of the technology etc being introduced throughout this season will turn out to be part of the explanation of Missy and what she’s doing: the teleporters, the optic nerve hack, the shapeshifting, maybe the miniaturiser in Into the Dalek?

    soundworld @soundworld

    Hello everyone
    Hi @purofilion, as you know I have been rather unwell for a long time, so big commiserations to you on your recent hospitalisation and hope you’re feeling better now.  Are you up for a <small> glass of red wine, perhaps?  A large one?

    I love your writing (purofilion) on the closeness or otherwise of the Dr.  I think we are seeing much closer to his real character with fewer facades, and we see genuine empathy and compassion and humour, only in glimpses but they are strong, genuine, and brilliantly played by Capaldi with that look, or those eyebrows.  He seems to me to be an incredibly present character, which is why this episode (to me) really worked with him imprisoned off-centre from the main drama and from Clara.  He was still thoroughly there, exasperated, alone, and maybe close to his end, trapped inside a dying Tardis.  To those complaining about it being dr-lite, with all due respect, I disagree.  This story alllowed us (the viewers) to explore though Clara, what it means to be the Doctor, to make the decisions he is faced with.  The same idea as in Kill the Moon.  Which gives credence to the idea upstream (sorry, I think several have mentioned it) that Clara is somehow doctor-in-training or at least reflecting the question: what does it mean to be the Doctor?

    @idiotsavon I like your spot there on the multiples of ’11’ .  Multiple fragments/aspects of Doctor 11? (Clara being the Isis trying to put it all back together again @puro),  bleeding through into the virtual-reality test-world run by Missy?

    Now to my own post:
    Well, didn’t that give a lot to think about.  I was excited when I saw the trailer last week, wondering if any reference wold be made to the classic work on 2D and dimensions: <i><b>Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions by Edwin Abbot Abbot ( see wiki article).</b></i><b> </b>

    “Flatland is an 1884 satirical novella by the English schoolmaster Edwin Abbott Abbott. Writing pseudonymously as “A Square”, the book used the fictional two-dimensional world of Flatland to comment on the hierarchy of Victorian culture, but the novella’s more enduring contribution is its examination of dimensions.

    He is himself visited by a three-dimensional sphere, which he cannot comprehend until he sees Spaceland (a tridimensional world) for himself. This Sphere visits Flatland at the turn of each millennium to introduce a new apostle to the idea of a third dimension in the hopes of eventually educating the population of Flatland. From the safety of Spaceland, they are able to observe the leaders of Flatland secretly acknowledging the existence of the sphere and prescribing the silencing of anyone found preaching the truth of Spaceland and the third dimension. After this proclamation is made, many witnesses are massacred or imprisoned (according to caste).

    After the Square’s mind is opened to new dimensions, he tries to convince the Sphere of the theoretical possibility of the existence of a fourth (and fifth, and sixth …) spatial dimension; but the Sphere returns his student to Flatland in disgrace.”

    No obvious references that I can see, other than the entire concept of beings limited in dimensional perception which has inspired SF stories and films ever since, so…

    Now to those lines:

    “..thank goodness – wasn’t I a great Doctor though?”
    “You were an exceptional Doctor Clara. Goodness had nothing to do with it”

    We could stretch this to mean that an external goodness had nothing to do with it – its down to Clara’s innate goodness.  If it weren’t for the chilling delivery!  What is goodness?  (Without going on an entire Zen and the Art of… exploration and blowing our minds).  Does this mean that to be a good Doctor, all one has to do is , what?  Cleverness?  Its all tautological, one can’t be a good Doctor, making the choices he makes, trying to save the entire Universe, without goodness, without an innate morality.

    DannyBoy might be good, but he’s not necessarily good for Clara.  Something happens when they’re together, and Clara becomes less than herself.

    I’ll stop now before getting too tied in self-referential knots here.   Please pardon my typos (especially capitalisations) this keyboard is getting very worn out and temperamental)!  Like myself 🙂

    ScaryB @scaryb

    @soundworld (hope your recuperation is going well)

    Good spot on the Edwin Abbott Abbott connection. That’s why Rigsy’s estate is the Abbott Estate ( blog from writer Jamie Mathieson explaining the background to the episode Also includes the drawing he pitched it with)

    @bluesqueakpip Fair enough point re Clara going to the bad being another flawed female needing rescued. Hopefully she’ll see it herself and realise that it’s the lying that’s the problem.

    @gothamcelt  Nice:

    …Alice and the ‘Drink Me’ potion. We have already seen references to Robin Hood and a dragon. I am sure there are others. Next episode shows a girl I a red coat running into a dangerous  forest. And we all know what’s in there – The (Big) Bad Wolf.

    @glenisterm 12’s still got a LONG way to go before he approaches 5’s tendency to bring everyone and their granny into the TARDIS 😉

    (I thought the dead man’s handle thing had been fixed (post Pelham 123) so that it couldn’t be rigged this way. But I see from other posters (elsewhere) that this is an older style train)

    Missy – so far we’ve had “my boyfriend” and now “my Clara”. Does that mean it’s Clara who’s the chosen – or someone close to Clara? (looking at Danny again!). If it’s Clara, does she knows she’s been chosen?  How is Missy watching her? (If she’s hacked into the Doctor’s optic nerve (as he did with Clara) – surely he’d know?). Does the Doctor have an idea something’s going on? Is that what he’s trying to work out with all the equations?  Was his paranoia in Listen down to more than Clara being the thing under his bed? Maybe he was right, and he isn’t alone. She’s “saving” soldiers/fighters – is she building an army for him?

    Last thoughts, for now – The Thing is a thing!! (Addams Family ref – hand in the box)

    TARDIS in seige mode – I WANT ONE!!!!

    ScaryB @scaryb

    Apologies to @pedant – Credit where it’s due re the DMH info. Thanks

    Ditto re @phileasf Apologies for repeating your thoughts on Missy.

    Note to self: read ALL the posts before posting!!


    Rob @rob

    Bloomin’ awesome episode

    The Tardis in siege mode looks very like the Pandorica don’t ya think???? (@ScaryB I think you mentioned this first???)

    The lying to Danny thing is (in my opinion, and thereby fueled by an intense arabica coffee) is all related to definition of being pushed too far, Clara’s perception of how Danny would perceive “too far” is not necessarily what Danny would see as “too far” hence her lying to him. She will know when the Doctor pushes her too far and that will be the acid test. Will Danny come to help at that point or not.

    If we create a graph (by we I mean @bluesqueakpip ) the above concept still doesn’t make sense 😉

    Is Missy Clara’s Mum?????????


    Anonymous @

    @scaryb – Sorry I over stepped. Good point, I know reading all posts is impossible. I was nicer the second post, but admit still a bit of snark. 😳

     Glad to meet you @glenisterm. Truly sorry for getting off on the wrong foot, questions are always good. Welcome to the DWForum.  <going to back to my corner>

    ReboStar @rebostar

    I managed to rip the clip with the UFO in.

    TardisBlueSky @tardisbluesky

    This may sound stupid, but I think Missy might be the Tardis.

    RobertDaller @robertdaller

    I really like the character development for both Clara and the Doctor in this episode, it was nice to see Clara carry an episode too, as she is my all time favorite companion)

    I especially liked when he scared the creature’s off, that was cool.
    And did anyone catch the A113 train? Or whatever it was… Hah Animation reference.

    While i’m still getting used to Capaldi, (As Smith was my all time favorite Doctor and probably always will be.)
    I do feel like they made the right choice, going for something radically different. (And *Cough cough* not a woman.)

    It makes sense for Number 12 to be like this too, I feel like it’s because of his time spent on Trenzalore, and him losing his guilt which has so often made him do the right thing, which is why he needs Clara perhaps more than ever.

    I’m not sure about Missy though… At this point it seems pretty obvious to me she’s the woman in the shop. (That was the impression I got when I first saw her.) but I have no idea what she means by choosing Clara, looks like the mysteries surrounding her aren’t done with quite yet.

    And is it just me or are they really emphasizing soldier’s this season? Journey Blue, The Mummy, it seems weird somehow but I think it all means we’re leading into a very important arc about Danny.

    I actually have some theories i’d like to post, but they’re kinda off the topic of this episode, anyone know where I can post them?

    BadWulf @badwulf

    Sadly, Ms BadWulf has given up on Doctor Who, as she feels that 12 is just too unlikable. She was introduced to the programme in the cuddly era of Tennant and Smith, and has never really cared for any of the BG stories. (My last attempt at trying to convert her to the cause by showing her Pyramids of Mars ended up with peals of laughter at the “kneel before Sutekh” scene – because “sutek” means “nipple” in her native language, and “kneel before Nipple” doesn’t quite have the same level of sinister dignity that the scene should evoke.

    Thus, I watched this week’s episode on my own.

    Well, I found that to be a very satisfying small episode. In particular, the supporting cast were all excellent – particularly Christopher Fairbank, who I only recently saw as the Broker in Guardians of the Galaxy (how many Who actors were in that film?). I kept expecting the Batman to drop by!

    I loved the playing with the dimensional transcendency of the TARDIS, especially the Doctor dragging it around like Thing from the Addams Family. Perhaps this was done deliberately to remind viewers that TARDISes can look like like anything, and can be carried around – maybe Missy has a TARDIS that Clara is carrying around with her? I wonder if Clara carrying a miniaturized TARDIS into the Doctor’s TARDIS would avoid the recursive loop that featured in Logopolis, when the Master materialized one of his TARDISes inside the Doctor’s.

    It was fun to see a monster being monstrous for monstrosity’s sake for a change – antagonists can’t all be poor misunderstood aliens!

    BadWulf @badwulf

    @tardisbluesky This may sound stupid, but I think Missy might be the Tardis.

    It’s not a stupid suggestion. If I recall The Doctor’s Wife, SexyTARDIS did say to the 11th that this was the *only* time that they spoke. There’s a loophole there, as Missy hasn’t spoken to the Doctor!

    Alternatively, there’s nothing preventing Missy being someone or something else’s TARDIS.

    BadWulf @badwulf

    @scaryb Were the Boneless(?) draining power from the TARDIS? Were they accessing it through the Clara/Doctor “phone” link? The first victim we saw, and the policewoman were both on the phone when the attacks started.

    There is definitely an ongoing phone motif in Clara’s story arc. Whether or not this is just an artifact of the show being about a magical phonebox, is arguable – but it does kind of remind me of the Matrix movies, where phones act as portals in and out of virtual worlds.

    BadWulf @badwulf

    @rebostar I managed to rip the clip with the UFO in.

    I looked back on iPlayer, and the moment occurs at the 40 minutes 2 seconds mark. I wasn’t able to tell if it was a VFX shot or a plane in the background. It seemed to move faster than a plane!

    Arbutus @arbutus

    I had no idea what to expect with this one, and was quite delighted with it. I loved the monster concept, and that there was both a lightness of touch and a believable sense of danger. A few thoughts:

    Clara did lie! (An essential survival skill and a bad habit.)
    She was an exceptional Doctor, goodness had nothing to do with it. Again, is the Doctor a good man?
    This planet is protected! The Doctor stops the monsters. A different result than the egg-moon incident, he still gave them the benefit of the doubt initially, but they did turn out to be monsters after all (rather like the dimensional rift creatures in the Unquiet Dead).

    Now off to read what everyone made of the last moments of that. Clara, my Clara?!?

    lisa @lisa

    @phileasf – liked your idea that Missy was watching Clara from the same hacking device as the Doctor but then what can that tell us?

    Someone made the observation that Missy refers to “my Clara and my Boyfriend” {sorry cant find it again}

    The writer likes to use trains in his episodes

    There have been a lot of ‘conversions” from one thing to another this season

    @gothamcelt – Yes! Alice and Red Riding Hood – more myths etc.

    Clara it seems is really beginning to “believe” in herself as a possible Clara-Doctor

    Anonymous @

    I really like the bit where the TARDIS goes from siege mode to a full sized TARDIS. I was holding my breath and gasping in awe at that.

    Arbutus @arbutus

    So many great comments, big and small.

    @bluesqueakpip    So Clara passes the baton; from Smith to Capaldi. He takes the Sonic, and he defeats the monsters.   Nicely put. The Doctor finally, definitely embraces the inner hero that he has been denying all series. A wonderful and (to me) unexpected payoff at the climax of this episode.

    Nerd of the week, beautiful.  🙂

    @purofilion    Good to see you back! I always miss your wonderful combination of forthright speech and literary imagination in the discussion. I love the story of your ancient Greek prof. I once took a course in Old English from a German prof who simply couldn’t understand that we weren’t all linguistics majors! He expected us to easily make connections that just weren’t always happening for us.

    @scaryb  Agreed that Clara’s lying in this case is not a good thing. Because she’s doing it for selfish reasons. @pedant‘s description of Danny as the friend/lover of an addict is spot on. Trying to help but afraid to rock the boat, frustrated by the behaviour but afraid to take that final hard line. @juniperfish suggests that “we’re supposed to wonder if Danny is a wrong ‘un”, but frankly, I’ve just not seen enough of him to view him as anything other than innocuous, an apparently nice guy who is a little damaged from his life experiences. I wonder if, were this anything other than DW, would we all still be so suspicious of him and his motives? And @bluesqueakpip, I wonder if Danny would have taken such a hard line against the Doctor if the Doctor hadn’t taken one against him?

    The survival of the nasty-minded public works guy reminded me of the unpleasant business man in Voyage of the Damned.

    Rob @rob

    Just reading the next tranche of comments and @arbutus and @lisa have fired my neuron

    Missy is a Tardis and has chosen Clara to be her Doctor ?!?!?!?!

    Clara-Jenny link to be discovered


    Issue of River and the Doctor (maybe many times removed)


    Clara jumping into the Doctors timestream has energised her somehow (as per River being conceived in the Tardis) hmmm maybe even the Tardis above Craig’s flat (Not our Craig…. Is our Craig a Craigacle????)


    Something completely different (much more likely)

    Anonymous @

    I’m still processing the episode but the hand emerging from the tunnel roof left me with the need to change undies 😀


    Has she hacked the Doctor’s optic nerve?

    I’m quite puzzle by how Missy was able to see Clara and did think about an optic nerve ‘hack’ but it can’t be The Doctor as he’d already gone back into the TARDIS. Rigsy and the others had also gone by then so who else could it be?


    Does the Doctor have an idea something’s going on? Is that what he’s trying to work out with all the equations?

    I’ve been thinking about those equations over the weekend and I’ve come to the conclusion that they’re nothing to do with returning Gallifrey to ‘our’ universe’ but rather the opposite.

    Remember the line in Day Of The Doctor, ‘No sir, all thirteen’ ? I think he’s finishing of the calculations to lock Gallifrey in the stasis cube and tentatively predict the final scene of Series 8 will show him set off to join the other Doctors with eyebrows set to attack mode 🙂


    DMU? Or, as we used to call them, Bog Units! Do we have another trainspotter in our midst?


    Is Missy Clara’s Mum?????????

    I’d been wondering that myself but Clara’s Mum seemed such a nice, gentle soul. That said, I seem to remember theories from Series 7b that Clara may have been adopted. @bluesqueakpip – was that you?


    Welcome. I had a re-watch earlier. It’s no longer a UFO as I’ve identified it (possibly). It’s a seagull. There are a couple more flapping about behind The Doctor in that scene.


    Welcome. Any theories you have can be posted on the relevent episode thread or, alternatively, ‘On The Sofa’.

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @flirtingdinosaur  @jimbomcmaster    The thing about TARDIS physics is that the whole central premise is outside of the everyday physics that we (or I) understand. There was a wonderful, physical demonstration here of the hard-to-grasp fact that the inside of the TARDIS is essentially unconnected to the outside. It is a different dimension, and never has that been more clear than with tiny TARDIS and giant Doctor!

    @strax @rebostar    When we talk about “liking” a character, there are different things that we can mean by that. We might like/not like the actor, or like/not like the way the character is written. Or we might might not like a character that we are supposed to not like, like the public works guy in this story, for instance. My view of Clara is that I am enjoying the character more than in series 7, because she feels more like a real person to me. I also think that the character is essentially a decent person, also brave and smart. I think she makes some poor decisions, though. She is a bit like the girl friend that I want to shake a bit and say “What were you thinking, sister?” She can be irritating at times. But I think that she is supposed to be. How we take to that will depend on our own tastes. Your mileage will vary, etc.

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @purofilion’s use of “buffa” to describe the comic touches in this series is interesting. It reminds me of the classification of many of Shakespeare’s plays, which were called comedies because of the wit of the dialogue and (I think) because, unlike the tragedies, they didn’t end badly.  🙂   And Mozart’s opera Don Giovanni, which he called opera buffa, but which included seduction, rape, murder, and supernatural vengeance! Some have found the humour in the series heavy or awkward, but the balance has worked well for me.

    @idiotsavon   With this Doctor, I like that I can be a little in awe of him. I felt that way about Tom Baker’s Doctor (my Doctor) that while there was warmth and humour there, you couldn’t get too close to him, and he felt a little scary at times. I think I agree with @scaryb that there was less swagger in his “I am the Doctor” speech than we have seen previously. Maybe because he has had a long road to travel to reach this self-acceptance, he makes the statement with a little more determination and gravitas, acceptance rather than the joy of Eleven or the cockiness of Ten.



     Do we have another trainspotter in our midst?

    Nah, just a general interest in transport system and their role in overcoming the friction of distance. Once a geographer, always a geographer.

    Oblique @oblique


    Yes, this is a family show, you’re absolutely right and so perhaps engaging with the story, any story, comes from sharing the experience with those around us. Watching it with the children may make the experience different, than watching it alone –  how sad.

    Personally I’ve never watched Who for laughs. I’ve written elsewhere: the show is ticking lots of boxes, it has to in order to meet the expectations of its Saturday night audience, assuming of course we are all watching as a family. Pre-gap Who in its latter days was a cult for anorak wearing males and largely avoid by everybody else, and we’d rather not go back to that would we… no.

    So ‘dark and edgy’ no longer to your liking, that’s okay. I’m behind the times, lost in a nether-world existence of created by Phillip Hinchcliffe and the likes.

    btw: Do you think this episode  will boost pre-Christmas boost sales of TARDIS ‘Police boxes’ ?


    Oblique x

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @phileasf   I had written this, before reading your post about the same subject:     For a Doctor-lite, I thought there was tons of Doctor. I confess I’m having a hard time understanding those who feel that there’s been too much companion and not enough Doctor. The balance doesn’t feel any different to me than the Amy/Rory/Doctor balance did. And what about Donna Noble saving the day in Journey’s End? And Martha doing the same in The Last of the Time Lords? For me, the Doctor has always been the catalyst, and frequently the hero, but only recently have we been shown him as being on his own journey. Usually, the journey has belonged to the companions. Currently, we’re seeing both a Doctor journey and a companion journey; at least, that’s how it appears to me.

    To your discussion of BG companions, I would add that we frequently saw them off on their own, working separately from the Doctor to resolve things.

    And I like your “evil laughter as cultural difference” theory!

    @glenisterm   It sounds as if you are in western Canada? Me too!   🙂   There are actors, writers, musicians, and artists on the forum, but you may be the first magician. Very cool gig.

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @purofilion    @soundworld   Well said, regarding the Doctor’s character and what this episode displayed of it.

    @scaryb   Yes, I have also said before that I would certainly prefer Clara to sort out her issues on her own, rather than having the Doctor or Danny doing it for her!

    @badwulf    Oh, thanks. I am pretty fond of Pyramids of Mars, but that scene is done for me forever now. Kneel… before… nipple!!!!

    @fatmaninabox    It’s no longer a UFO as I’ve identified it (possibly). It’s a seagull.   For some reason, I find this absolutely hilarious.

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