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13 October 2014 at 21:45 #33522
@jimthefish I really love Capaldi’s Doctor. He’s so accomplished an actor that the smallest of tics or gestures conveys so much.
If I had to rank the Nu Who Doctors in order of their places of affection in my heart, I’d have to say Smithy and Capaldi and Ecclestone all come in ahead of Tennant for me. It’s a shame but I think Tennant got lost in a few catch moves (the running, the “brilliant”, the grin, the “allons y”) in the end.
13 October 2014 at 16:05 #33503@phileasf I like the idea of Missy as Penelope but Missy refers to the Doctor as her “boyfriend” and I suspect if the Doctor’s children and grand-children are eventually part of the narrative (which I think they will be) then Moff (who is a bit of a traditionalist) would consider the Doctor had a wife once on Gallifrey (not a girlfriend).
Incidentally, has everyone noticed that the soldiers we’ve seen are ALL soldiers whose wars haven’t ended? Journey Blue, Skivotz Blister and now the Mummy
Yes – they are narrative mirrors for the Doctor, whose own war is still not over given the daleks still loose in the universe and Gallifrey on his mind.
But Danny and the Doctor have been set up as antagonists who simply haven’t yet realised how much they have in common (both being reluctant soldiers who wanted to dig wells/ save people).
Unlike some, I don’t think Danny is going to turn out to be nefarious. But yes, he will probably turn out to be a good man stuck in a situation between bad and worse choices.
Eventually, he and the Doctor will recognise their similarities and bond over their shared love for Clara.
12 October 2014 at 21:40 #33457@mtgradwell Thanks for the reverse engineering explanation. So GUS wanted to build more killer Mummies…
@Various
Interesting some people dislike Clara this season. I much prefer her. I remember when she first arrived as Oswin Dalek and I thought she was great, then she became a sort of blank canvas whose defining characteristic was fancying Eleven and being “impossible” and I was bored. But now, I can see that Jenna Coleman is a decent actress again (as when she first appeared).
I don’t think Clara is behaving badly vacillating between leaving the Doctor and keeping going. He’s a difficult man in this incarnation. We would all be torn between our lives back here and our time travel adventures if the Doctor came a-calling.
I very much enjoyed the Doctor’s softer underbelly this week – clearly sad about losing Clara but leaving the decision in her hands. The Doctor in Capaldi’s shoes feels very layered and slow burn. I love the slapstick quality Matt Smith brought to the role but I love the savagery Capaldi brings with those flashes of tenderness beneath.
@bluesqueakpip Yes – who WOULDN’T want to go on the Orient Express in space!
12 October 2014 at 16:38 #33442@phileasf Regarding your (a) above, GUS says that:
“Your goal is to ascertain the Foretold’s true nature, probe for weaknesses, with a view to capture, after which we will reverse engineer its abilities!”
Of course, GUS might be lying about the true nature of the enterprise, but what would “reverse engineering” of the Foretold’s ability to kill actually mean? Enabling it to grant eternal life? Interesting for all those wondering about a Missy/ Gus connection as Missy has stored a bunch of apparently dead people in a virtual afterlife.
Also interesting given that the dalek in Into the Dalek was also “reverse engineered” to hate dalek-kind instead of all other life-forms.
Someone is messing with the basic nature of things. I smell (rogue) Time Lords.
12 October 2014 at 09:56 #33425@phaseshift You are sweet – cheering up a sick fish 🙂
I have to say that I find the mythological undercurrents in Moffat’s Who somewhat frustrating because whilst they are clearly there (and I love your sycamore tree catch) it wouldn’t take much, and needn’t disturb the waters of the casual viewer, to sew a more consistent thread together.
Certainly, we might think of “Missy’s place” as a kind of virtual underworld and I think maybe a judgement, a weighing of the Doctor’s hearts (as happens in the Egyptian underworld) by nefarious folk, by himself, and by those who love him, is coming.
Missy could be setting up a gigantic reproach – as in “Look – here are all the people who have, just recently, died in your wake Doctor – you are a Lord of Death”. In his present state, the Doctor will probably agree and then, as @blenkinsopthebrave has predicted it will be up to (of course) love to save the day.
12 October 2014 at 08:38 #33420@phaseshift You know perfectly well Egyptology is @juniperfish bait ! 🙂
We’ve talked about Clara as Isis before, because she puts the Doctor back together when she jumps into his time stream (and remember she was also wearing that winged brooch in the rings of Akhaten), the way Isis put the scattered body parts of Osiris back together. Osiris comes back from death to be the Lord of Death and so it would seem has the Doctor. At least, he presently feels he is faced with choosing death everywhere in spite of his quest to save people.
Of course, the only body part Isis couldn’t find was Osiris’ “little Osiris” so she made him a new one using magic. I did notice the Doctor’s screw-driver wasn’t working in this episode 🙂 So maybe Clara and the TARDIS need to make him a spiffy new one in order to lift his mood and restore him to a more optimistic view of the universe…
11 October 2014 at 23:39 #33397@pedant We don’t have much to go on in terms of a Gus/ Missy relationship.
Except – both create virtual worlds.
Missy is nefariously “saving” people to one whilst Gus was nefariously slaughtering people “for science” in another.
Each of them seems to be “testing” the Doctor in some way – Missy by “saving” people who have died in the eddy of his dealings and Gus by watching him work to save people under pressure.
I’d say a second Trial of a Time Lord is in the offing and it is being decided whether he really is “worthy” of his new set of regenerations.
11 October 2014 at 23:00 #33388@scaryb Lol re the Doctor’s telephone number 🙂
@bluesqueakpip I’d have to agree with @badwulf that the Kill the Moon choice was presented to Clara and Courtney as between potentially mass deaths on earth due to flooding (hello climate change reference) and killing an innocent baby creature – no good choice there (from their perspective) although a gamble, as the mass deaths were not certain. So it was a slightly “softer” option the Doctor gave them than the choice he himself faced as the War Doctor, between the children of Gallifrey and the destruction of the universe.
After you have chosen the genocide of your people, even if you have later rescued the situation with the help of several of your reincarnations, all choices where death is at stake must burn with the sting of that enormity. The Doctor is attempting to shrug as if he feels them less, because they are “smaller”, hence his many callous-sounding speeches to Clara. But the truth is, he feels them all and feels eternally condemned to make them.
11 October 2014 at 22:44 #33386@scaryb <waves> It was the Marcus Aurelius quote I was thinking of – his full name was Marcus Aurelius Antoninus Augustus.
I think a theme of the Time Lords as the Roman Empire of the galaxy is developing.
Perhaps “Gus” and Missy are rogue Time Lords. I like that idea @devilishrobby
11 October 2014 at 22:18 #33378Hmmmn – well “Gus” is short for Augustus – first Roman emperor. Wasn’t there a quote about Augustus on the blackboard in Clara’s school in a previous episode? Anyone?
The question of “rule” is looming large, what with the Doctor identified as “officer class”, and saluted whether sarcastically by Danny or gratefully by the Mummy. What right do the Time Lords have to lord it over time and “lesser” species?
11 October 2014 at 21:53 #33374@pedant – I agree – Clara thought Eleven was hot but she has a more complicated (and much more interesting) relationship with Twelve – a love-hate relationship. And the entire vibe is much more father-daughter, as you say. I’m not sure where @danmartinuk is getting the sexual tension from!
11 October 2014 at 21:50 #33371Also, after last week’s episode, which passed the Bechdel test with flying colours, this one deliberately took the piss, with Clara and Maisie locked in the sarcophagus room decrying the fact that all they can talk about is a man, only to spend the time talking about just that.
Plus – I was very taken with the Doctor’s snazzy jelly baby case – nice touch.
11 October 2014 at 21:37 #33367Well the mirroring of the War Doctor’s terrible choice in each of the narratives this season, which I’ve been banging on about, is made even more explicit in this episode.
Sometimes, there are no good choices but you have to make them anyway.
A war-weary soldier kept artificially alive by tech… so that’s how the Doctor is feeling about his new set of regenerations. He doesn’t see them as a gift of forgiveness from his people. He sees them as an extension of the punishment meted out by The Moment – that he has to live on – to keep making impossible choices, over and over again, since the one he made between the children of Gallifrey and the End of Time for the universe.
If last week’s episode was Jenna Coleman’s this week’s was definitely Capaldi’s, who acted his very talented socks off and showed us a little more of the terribly weary and hearts-sore Doctor behind the brusque façade.
I’ve not doubt this was a delight for Agatha Christie buffs and to appreciate it properly necessitates a re-watch of Murder on the Orient Express.
11 October 2014 at 17:06 #33354@bluesqueakpip and @phaseshift
We will revisit the Doctor’s crib before Moffat is done however, I swear it.
And to be fair, Moff is fond of a pregnancy story – having them in both Doctor Who and Sherlock.
I think the reason why a baby (moon dragon) was the entity to be killed or not to be killed to potentially save many people on earth in Kill the Moon was, once again, narrative mirroring of the Doctor’s terrible choice. It was stressed that the War Doctor was responsible for the deaths of the children of Gallifrey.
8 October 2014 at 12:25 #33265True! But not the same as facing them all, his Time Lord people, those who he killed in the previous time line, and receiving judgement and/ or forgiveness in person.
Clearly at the moment, Twelve feels he is not worthy of those new regenerations. And he is stuck, replaying or acting out the trauma of the War Doctor’s choice (or forcing Clara to re-enact it) over and over and over…
8 October 2014 at 09:04 #33257The Moment’s punishment is still in operation: the Doctor still has to live.
Yes, and not only that, but eventually he has to face his people, the Lords of Time, for whom time stream one (Gallifrey destroyed) and time stream two (Gallifrey saved in a bubble universe) will be equally real. How will they judge him, murderer of the children of Gallifrey and saviour of the universe from the Time War?
When Twelve asks Clara whether or not he is a good man, I imagine he is bracing himself for the judgement of his people.
Others will have to advocate for him if it does come to a second trial of a Time Lord, because in his hearts he still condemns himself.
I think Listen is still my favourite episode of the season, because I found the terror of the child Doctor of things that live under the bed and the terror of the adult War Doctor of the weight on his shoulders, both in that barn somewhere in the outlands of Gallifrey to be a real emotional punch.
How could anyone endure after such a decision as the one the War Doctor is faced with? Living on is a punishment indeed.
7 October 2014 at 21:56 #33240@pedant Lol 🙂
@scaryb Yes I also love the lesbian lizards. And speaking of which – I hope we get another Jenny and Vastra adventure this season. I love those two actresses – they have mischievous chemistry.
Woo and hoo to the solar storms. It’s also a lunar eclipse tomorrow morning.
I think @phaseshift is right – because this season has been all about death and difficult choice.
To push or not to push the robot to its death? (Deep Breath) To kill or not to kill with its mate held hostage? (the Teller in Heist) To destroy or not to destroy the moon dragon? (Kill the Moon) etc.
Each of these decisions mirror, on a smaller scale, the terrible decision the War Doctor was faced with. The link is overtly made in-text when we actually revisit the War Doctor in Listen.
The Doctor is haunted – and what better time to confront this haunting than Halloween?
7 October 2014 at 19:57 #33221@scaryb – awwww the Soup Dragon!
@pedant et al on the subject of the egg – behold the whip-tailed lizard (a cousin methinks of Madame Vastra) http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p006v48r
6 October 2014 at 22:47 #33166@whisht You’re right I would like that 🙂
Annoyingly, the Egyptology seems to have disappeared.
Missy as Anubis would be awesome.
6 October 2014 at 22:28 #33162@scaryb <waves> Yes I’m not bothered by the accuracy of moon gravitational science etc. either.
@whisht So there are three candidates for Missy’s “Heaven”
1. The Time Lord Matrix
2. The Library (in which River is entombed)
3. The Papal Mainframe
I think Moffat, who is a bit of a sarcastic bugger, is messing with those of his critics who complain that nobody actually really dies in his Whoniverse 🙂
Previous theories about Missy have included:
1. She’s River
2. She’s Clara
3. She’s the Master
4. She’s the Rani
5. She’s Madame Kovarian or part of Team Kovarian
I’d love it if she was a regenerated Lord Borusa on a mission in the bubble universe where Gallifrey currently resides to engineer a trial of the Doctor, in order to get him to, finally, forgive himself for the War Doctor’s choices
6 October 2014 at 14:48 #33142@jimthefish Hello fellow fish-friend – I like your idea that Clara is a future version of Missy
Moff does like his mystery female antagonists – Mme Kovarian and now Missy.
I’m still banking on Clara being a relative of the Doctor’s (grand-daughter as top fave).
<throws some glitter just for @scaryb>
5 October 2014 at 08:46 #33026@phaseshift I like your thoughts on the Twelfth Doctor as a “dead Time Lord walking”. I’m still hoping the Valeyard comes into this somewhere along the way.
There’s no doubt that the Doctor behaved abominably in this episode. I’m not sure this is just about his legacy. We’ve already gone there – remember River’s speech on the top of the pyramid about how she called for help to save the Doctor and millions of beings answered because of his impact on the universe? I think it’s more about – what should be one’s attitude to one’s resurrected life? At the moment, the Doctor is mired in self-recriminations. He can’t shake the choice the War Doctor made the first time around and, it seems, he can’t forgive himself in relation to his past (in one time stream) as the murderer of his people. He doesn’t think he’s a good man and as a result he’s behaving in a pretty difficult to be around manner at the moment.
This can only be resolved by the re-discovery of Gallifrey in its bubble universe and the Doctor’s thorny reunion with his home planet. In a way, although he’s procrastinating, my sense is that he feels he deserves to be judged there – a second Trial of a Time Lord.
It’s not the first time or incarnation in which the Doctor has projected some of his burdens onto his companions. I still remember thinking how inexpressibly dark it was that Nine took Rose to witness the end of the earth right at the start of their adventures. He asked a very young woman to feel the enormity of the death of her planet – that’s harsh. And, of course, exactly what he’d recently been through himself. But putting her through it too wasn’t a kind or a stable thing to do. It was, however, a sort of cry for help.
Similarly, in this episode, the Doctor projected his terrible choice (to use or not to use the Moment – to kill one set of people to save the universe) onto Clara and Courtney. This projection reveals the depths of his self-loathing. He, of course, made, in similar circumstances, the equivalent of the decision to nuke the moon dragon (first time around) and then had to live with it for three incarnations. The fact that Clara helped him change time does not mean he is letting himself off the hook. In fact, it would seem he is angry with her (quite unreasonably) because she found a way when he couldn’t. So, in this episode, he effectively punished her, by forcing her into a similar situation.
Basically, someone needs to kick the Doctor’s arse and twist his tail and drag him off to space therapy for a bit 🙂
4 October 2014 at 21:50 #32965Well someone is a Bowie fan – this was a grouchy Ziggy Stardust (the doc in a spiffy spotty shirt) meets the spiders from
Marsok the moon. It also contained a bit of a reference to John Carpenter’s The Thing (1982) and also to the recent hit Gravity (2013) methinks.This story was a fun jab at the sci-fi disaster blockbuster, wherein scientists have to save the earth by blowing something up or killing something. And appropriate for the time of year too, given the number of big spiders hanging in gardens and the corners of rooms this late golden Autumn.
The Twelfth Doctor as the Grinch is working for me. I’m enjoying Peter Capaldi’s worlds weary misanthropy with flashes of his hearts of gold peeping through.
And I like Courtney, she’s sassy and smart, and watching her bunk off double Geography I get that thrill that we’ve all had, imagining the TARDIS materialising in the broom closet at school 🙂
Basically this version of the Doctor is a bit of a manipulative dick, and his studied awkward shuffle when Clara calls him on it was nicely played by both of them.
It was also, in a world where blockbuster movies like The Avengers still routinely involve a heroic team of guys with one gal, noticeable and pleasing to have that in reverse here.
The more I see of Capaldi’s curmudgeonly Doctor, the more I want to see him and River together – the fights would be glorious.
2 October 2014 at 17:53 #32872@phaseshift 🙂 Yes, that all, re the medical profession, resonates only too strongly, unfortunately.
Santa Muerte is very interesting – news item here from National Geographic http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/13/130512-vatican-santa-muerte-mexico-cult-catholic-church-cultures-world/
And much more in depth info from Lucky Mojo http://www.luckymojo.com/santisimamuerte.html
I would enjoy the Doctor and Clara’s visit to Crocodpolis – I wonder if they’ll get there – one for fan fiction I suspect.
1 October 2014 at 22:39 #32842Waves at @scaryb x
There’s a lot of bait and switch going on. The narrative wants to sow some suspicion concerning all the characters – did the Doctor kill the automaton? Is he a good man? Is Clara two-faced (all the mirror images)? Is Danny not who he seems? Classic detective fiction device to keep us all guessing before Professor Plum in the library is revealed 🙂
1 October 2014 at 21:13 #32835Waves at @phaseshift :-}
Thank you for your offer – it wouldn’t go entirely amiss and is very much appreciated x
I actually went to medical school when I was a young thing and managed a year and a half before leaving because the word “empathy” had not entered the classroom. It seems it is still not a valued skill, as it’s pot luck whether your clinician has it, and it’s a wildly better experience when they (rarely) do. The GP has just found out I’m B12 deficient so I’m now having a series of rather painful injections. Hopefully I’ll start to feel better…
Perhaps it’s the European heritage shipped about, yes, there’s a lot of synchretism. Have you come across Santa Muerte? A Mexican worship of a Saint of Death which the Catholic church disapproves of but which is wildly popular.
If we’re playing Moffat bingo, I think there will be, as you say, a return from the dead for Halloween, a power of love moment as @blenkinsopthebrave predicted and a whiff of Gallifrey by the time we get to the end of the month.
I used to love Halloween as a kid. My Mum, having grown up in the States for a while, did it properly with bat’s blood (Ribena) apple bobbing, sticky buns on strings and mashed potato with charms wrapped up in grease-proof paper which had things like a thimble, a button etc, all with their own meanings for luck and prediction. Oh, and dressing up, of course 🙂
1 October 2014 at 19:27 #32831Thanks to @whisht @arbutus and @scaryb for the good health wishes – I really need them – so very much appreciated x
@phaseshift How right you are x I love Halloween / Sahmain and think it’s fascinating that the dead are commemorated in so many cultures at this time of year. In Haiti the Days of the Dead are Nov 1 and 2 and the people take flowers and food to the cemeteries – http://www.wehaitians.com/day%20of%20the%20dead.html
I’m sure Moff is aware of these dates (remember all the Easter references when our dear bow-tie wearer was dying and being resurrected thanks to River and her determination to over-ride the programming of that suit at Lake Silencio.
29 September 2014 at 16:25 #32692Ha ha @blenkinsopthebrave – I agree the redemptive power of love is absolutely going to be in the mix 🙂
@phileasf I liked your distaste for/ discussion of the way the Doctor and Danny speak to Clara. I agree that Moff focuses on commenting on the physicality of women in a way he does not focus on when it comes to men.
Frankly, in other parts of the interwebs, Moffat is derided as a very sexist writer and I do have sympathy with this perspective. I think he’s a very good writer, but I do also think he observes and stereotypes socially prevalent women’s insecurities in his scripts. I hated Mels, when regenerating into River, saying that she was “focussing on a dress size”. Yes, many women are overly concerned about their weight due to social pressures to look a certain way, but why reflect and reinforce that concern in Dr Who, totally unnecessarily? I really wince at that line. It’s not funny, it’s painful. I also hated that Osgood the scientist was (again totally unnecessarily) apparently jealous of her “pretty sister”. Urgh, yuk… I don’t want these messages for girls in Doctor Who because they’re already out there in the world enough (i.e. that women are most valued not for their brains but for their looks).
Twelve does constantly jab at Clara’s appearance – she thinks she looks good from behind, he says “Really?”. He says she’s already taken off her make-up so a reconciliation on her date with Danny is off, when in fact she hasn’t… etc. Clara does hold her own, and she does refer to the Doctor as a “grey-haired stick insect”. However, thus far her appearance is commented on far more in “script quips” than the Doctor’s.
So yes, I would say Moffat is an excellent writer, but he is also rather old fashioned in his approach to femaleness in some respects. These kinds of details are where I really think Doctor Who falls down by having an all male writing team.
@bluesqueakpip I do hope Clara doesn’t turn out to be yet more of a mystery. Because, while I’m on a roll 🙂 The other thing Moff does which I dislike is make women into mysteries as standard – mysterious River, “mad impossible Amy Pond”, Clara “the Impossible Girl”. Freud thought women were “the dark continent” and that was in the 19thC.
28 September 2014 at 05:55 #32602@phaseshift Thankyou x The squeaky helium voice made me smile – but yes, in reality ENT stuff is awful.
@pedant The Doctor tried to keep out of the Time War but he ended up on the front line fighting the Nightmare Child, the Horde of Travesties and the Skaro Degradation (End of Time). This season is drawing a parallel between reluctant fighter Danny Pink, who wanted to dig wells and save people, and reluctant fighter the Doctor, who wanted anything except to use the Moment, but went there [in time stream 1 :-)], don’t you think?
Their antagonism is partly projection – Danny and the Doc see in one another things they don’t like in themselves. Eventually, they will have “the conversation” – the one where they recognise this mirroring and empathise with one another’s battle scars.
This becomes an even more poignant storyline now that the House of Parliament (I don’t say “we” – because who asked us, the people, as usual) has decided to get involved in war in Iraq again. Nu Who is marked by the backdrop of the UK at war, and the Doctor as a reluctant participant in war, in RTD and Moff’s hands, is a reflection in fiction of the agonies of such. The flashback to the War Doctor walking towards the barn gave me shivers in Listen.
@bluesqueakpip I liked the sense very much, at the end of this week’s episode, as Clara and Danny cuddled on the sofa, that Danny is on the brink of something very, very dangerous now that he has met the Doctor and will, without doubt, be travelling in that blue box on occasion. The Doctor is marvellous but he is also calamitous when he sweeps people away into time and space.
27 September 2014 at 22:54 #32589Oh – and the irony at the heart of this episode is, of course, that the Doctor fails to recognise that Clara actually has chosen someone like him – not superficially a la bow-tie, but a scientist (mathematician) and fighter who has renounced war…
27 September 2014 at 22:48 #32588Hi @phaseshift – hee hee – was it “otter” or “Auton”? A rewatch is required.
I thought, if “otter”, that this might be when the Doc and River met @jimthefish !
Thanks for asking – I’m still pretty sick and a bit miserable. But Who always cheers me up.
I’m still liking the snippy fighty Clara/ Doc dynamic. They give good comedy together.
27 September 2014 at 22:43 #32586The Doctor also took on the persona/ role of “the caretaker” in the 2011 Christmas special “The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe” and that what he was doing to himself emotionally at that point was feeling alone, until he was invited in for Christmas with Amy and Rory.
Twelve’s obvious affront at having to share Clara with someone who isn’t just a “mini-me” is a guise for his ever present sense of loneliness.
27 September 2014 at 22:29 #32583Hi All,
A fun comedic outing for “the caretaker” in all his cantankerous and obstreperous glory.
And yay – a mention for River. Apparently the Doctor hung out with a bunch of otters after a “big fight” with her. Was that his cute way of saying “sorry” given that otters live in rivers? Awwww….
I’d just love to see Capaldi and Kingston together. Sorry, non-River fans, but I just… would.
Yes, indeed @Phaseshift, the Doc’s ego was endearingly planet sized to behold in this episode.
Courtney was a cutie and I did like the Doctor’s instinctive flash of connection for a fellow “disruptive influence”.
Meanwhile, @pedant and @Phaseshift I think you’re both right – the Doctor was a member of the patrician class on Gallifrey, but he was always a bo-ho rebel patrician.
Also meanwhile… Missy…
22 September 2014 at 18:12 #32367@phileasf I like your theory. But not sure our-time Doctor knows that people aren’t dying – only his upstream self.
And if that’s what’s happening then I predict a fall – someone is going to really die for really real and break his hearts down the line.
“Listen” revealed that Clara and Mr. Pink have kids and that she also has a deep familial connection to the Doctor given that the TARDIS took her to Gallifrey to comfort his child-self – the soldier without a gun. Clever TARDIS – she knows the way into that bubble universe already but knows the Doctor has to get there emotionally on his own. Maybe Missy is indeed a TARDIS manifestation.
21 September 2014 at 16:02 #32292@pedant I think the two time streams or not has been argued before on these boards – so, in two times streams spirit 🙂 you can keep your always-already and I’ll keep my second-time-around saved Gallifrey.
But I like the blue pill/ red pill as an addition and if you go back and watch the episode for lighting, you will see that it switches between red and blue at points – it’s very striking in places e.g. at the point when Clara has the conversation with Psi before he supposedly sacrifices himself – she is lit in red and he in blue.
If Clara does turn out to be his great great granddaughter or whatever then I love the two time streams perspective – because in the first one, as we saw in The End of Time, the Doctor sacrificed his own family (we see his Mother) when Gallifrey burned, including, perchance his own descendants. And in the second time stream – they are returned to him.
21 September 2014 at 12:31 #32264@pedant – Just looking back at mentions – yes I also think it would be very funny (and not beyond the realms of possibility as we all know the Moff is a Grauniad reader) if the Blue/ Pink intermittent theme is a chain-yanking writer’s gag following on from the Red/ Blue bow ties spec last seasons. But, on the other hand we now have two time streams clearly in Twelve’s past (and two time streams have previously been signified by two colours) the one where he destroyed Gallifrey and the one where he saved it in a bubble universe…
IM-PE-RA-TIVE – Must swim back and watch all the eps with a large notebook and over-sized glasses for Blue/ Pink clues!!!! 🙂
21 September 2014 at 12:24 #32262Hi Everyone,
One of my fave actresses Keeley Hawes as Karabraxos and her clone – yay!
I liked the cinematographic panache of the episode and indeed I’m really enjoying the new series overall – a very different feel from the fairytale era of Smithy (praise be to it) – this season has a continual 1960s spy undercurrent, which I think is the most subtle but persistent clue that the Doctor’s granddaughter will be revealed (the 1960s origins of the Who narrative) during Capaldi’s tenure. From Clara’s outfits (lovely suit and bootlace tie in this ep) to the patrician aquiline grouch of Twelve which rather recalls The Prisoner (Patrick McGoohan) and The Avengers (Patrick MacNee)…
The Doctor’s self loathing continues apace from the previous Nu Who incarnations as do the glimpses that his hearts of gold are in there underneath the snippy exterior.
The brain suck was pretty scary – wonder what Linda Lee will make of that one.
@phaseshift Definitely one to watch again.
@bluesqueakpip re Clara’s guilt and her memories. She’s related to the Doctor or I’m a fish in space.
“Why did the Doctor think they were suicide weapons, rather than thinking “teleport”? ”
Indeed – does the Doctor save people or get them killed is the central question (both of course) but at the moment he’s gloomily of the view it’s the latter on balance – another case of up–time-stream Doctor knowing more than our present-time Doctor…
13 September 2014 at 21:14 #31553Hi everyone, swimming in from sick bed – did the Doctor say “Dad skills” when he put young Pink to sleep with a Time Lord finger? Methinks he did. Definite Dad vibes.
I know we’re going to see the Doctor’s cot again at some point.
I like Jenna Coleman so much better with Capaldi than with Smithy – she’s stepped up her acting game and is permitted more of a range than just flirting with the Doc – hurrah.
Ah ha – and the return of the War Doctor – so Twelve is haunted by his two time-streams (Pink and Blue) indeed.
Definitely needs a re-watch – that was fun and I really love Capaldi in the role (although of course Smithy and the bow-ties are still very much in my heart still x)
9 September 2014 at 08:01 #31351@arbutus and @bluesqueakpip (I’m catching up) Thanks for the kind wishes – appreciated – being sick sucks!
@Purofilion and @Serahani re the silver spoon from our friend Wikipedia (“silver spoon”):
The phrase “born with a silver spoon in his mouth” appeared in print in English as early as 1719, in Peter Anthony Motteux’s translation of the novel <i>Don Quixote</i>: “Mum, Teresa, quoth Sancho, ’tis not all Gold that glisters [sic], and every Man was not born with a Silver Spoon in his Mouth.”<sup id=”cite_ref-2″ class=”reference”><span style=”font-size: small;”>[2]</span></sup> Because the phrase is used as a translation of a Spanish proverb with a different literal meaning (“muchas veces donde hay estacas no hay tocinos,” literally: “often where there are hooks [for hanging hams] there are no hams”), it seems that the phrase was already considered proverbial in English at the time. In fact, the phrase next appears in a book of Scottish proverbs published in 1721, in the form “Every Man is no born with a Silver Spoon in his Mouth.”<sup id=”cite_ref-3″ class=”reference”><span style=”font-size: small;”>[3]</span></sup>
Because it’s a Mark Gatiss episode and he loves his literary allusions, I’ll bet the gold and silver references actually come from here.
7 September 2014 at 11:42 #31244Hi All, thanks for the get well wishes @jimthefish @purofilan and @janetteb
Still with a swimmy head – I’m just popping in briefly to note that the Doctor’s spoon and black glove were very striking.
The Doctor Who fan fiction archive “A Teaspoon and an Open Mind” is named after a quote from the 4th Doctor in The Creature from the Pit – “Well to be fair, I did have a couple of gadgets which he probably didn’t, like a teaspoon and an open mind”
The 12th Doc has a desert spoon here, but doesn’t have an open mind – he’s convinced Robin is a robot and such heroism can’t be real. Moreover the black glove reminded me of Captain Hook and Dr Strangelove – as if the Doctor has within himself something dark he needs to fight.
I saw quite a few folks are not in favour of a Valeyard story, but maybe we’re going to get one…
4 September 2014 at 21:49 #31095Well I am seriously late to the party – so many good posts, some much needed swift modding and here I swim in at the twelfth hour.
Thanks for your kind wishes @phaseshift x. I’m not well yet – just finished a second course of antibiotics and still don’t think it’s sorted – freaking AWFUL sinus infection – so I’m writing with a swimmy head from my sick-bed (a month now) feeling more than a bit down-at-fin.
Anyhoo – I did smile @phaseshift and @scaryb at your Danny Pink/ Journey Blue hook – whoo hoo!
Strap on your red shift/ blue shift hats my fellow fishy tinhatters!
I think last week someone mentioned that Missy’s locale looks like one of the places in The Girl Who Waited “Two Stream’s Kindness Facility”? Well, I wonder…. Danny Pink (liking the reincarnation/ Pink-icle of Journey’s brother theory) and Journey Blue are now in effect in two (time) streams (just as there were two – red waterfall and green anchor, in the Facility). One remains a soldier and one is an ex soldier who cries at the memory…
The Facility was a hospital – and we have medicine and healing contrasted with soldiers in this episode. The Aristotle was a converted medical ship, for which there was no need, because the Daleks left no wounded.
This series therefore carries within it the question arising from the Doctor’s two time-streams from the 50th – the one in which he killed the children of Gallifrey and the one in which he did not – the one in which he was a soldier (like Journey Blue) The War Doctor, and the one in which he was the healer Doctor again, found an alternative solution and cried for the solder-that-was (like Danny Pink).
But the Twelfth Doctor knows he lived both those time streams – so he is left with the heavy question – Am I a good man?
And so are we – the theme of this season. For which, I am heartily glad, because many (myself included) were rather worried about the retcon the 50th potentially pulled on the Doctor’s dark part in the last Time War, which has been foundational to RTD’s NuWho.
Incidentally, the episode riffs on the film Fantastic Voyage (1966) – in which Raquel Welch and others got miniaturised. Lots of nods to the 60s and Who’s origins. I swear there will be a granddaughter in there somewhere…
As for Missy – she reminds me of Madame Kovarian!
No doubt there’s lots more red/ blue stuff where that came from, but forgive me for now – my head is swimmy!
25 August 2014 at 18:45 #30213Hello Dear Emperor @craig
Sorry to see that a new arrival is speaking to you so very rudely, you who have set up these wonderful boards with your own care, time and attention and created such a lovely space for us all.
If people can’t behave courteously, we really don’t need them here in my view!
Thank you for all you do – you are appreciated x
25 August 2014 at 02:13 #30129@phaseshift Thanks very much for the get well wishes x I really need them.
I love your clarion call to twelve weeks of excitement 🙂
And you too @Purofilion – thank you.
@cathannabel Ooh the Bleak House reference is GREAT – and is it a clue? In that novel, a woman finds a daughter she thought was dead… I’m still sold on Clara as the Doctor’s granddaughter, esp now they’ve put the flirting back in the box. In the process, their dynamic instantly became much more interesting – snarky and hurt and tender – very familial?
@bluesqueakpip The Matrix is a great idea, particularly as the Doc is on a quest, however meandering the route, to find his own, albeit ambivalent, Promised Land – Gallifrey in its bubble universe – that was Eleven’s intention, and I noticed that Twelve’s TARDIS redecoration includes Gallifreyan patterning on the console room walls.
I’m going with Twelve as the Valeyard, or rather, afraid that he’s the Valeyard, as we move through this season.
24 August 2014 at 23:23 #30106Hi Everyone,
I’m a little fishily late to the party. I’m, alas, writing this from my sick-bed (allergic reaction to antibiotics, ended up in AandE, bit of a nightmare). Anyhoo, I’ve now seen the ep and read all your comments!
The new steam-punk opening visuals cement the writing team’s attachment to Victorian Britain, and thus (hopefully) to Jenny, Vastra and Strax as recurring adjuncts to Team TARDIS this season. In my book The Paternoster Gang are a wonderful addition and I was delighted that Vastra and Jenny’s relationship was given so many layers, flirtations, domesticities in Deep Breath and was, frankly, delightfully rendered by Catrin Stewart and Neve McIntosh. These two are great friends for the Doctor to have – smart and to be trusted. I love their history with him too – they are the people he went to when he was in mourning for Amy and River.
In fact I’d say the highlights of the episode were the character interactions, particularly Jenny with Vastra and the Doctor with Clara. I loved the snippy banter between Coleman and Capaldi in the mechanoid restaurant – I hope they keep that new dynamic as I think it raises Coleman’s game as an actress considerably.
I have some unease about Moff’s Victoriana – i.e. the Paternoster Gang’s easy celebration of the British Empire and the fact that Strax, albeit as throwaway funny, expects Capaldi’s Doctor to be killed by the savage poor. I miss RTD’s commitment to a Doctor Who world more conscious of race and class. However, the fact that there was going to be a murder in the pantry later, as Vastra dined on another London criminal (a poisoner this time) was intriguingly dark (hopefully not simply throwaway). Would Doctors past have approved of such summary carnivorous justice as a regular feature of a friend’s behaviour? Frankly Vastra is hard-core and somewhat dark herself.
We are being set up to mistrust this Doctor, to wonder how dark he is, to wonder who he is, as he is clearly wondering these things about himself. Did he push the cyborg, or did the cyborg jump? Did he abandon Clara callously, or did he not? I’m quite happy with that journey. Capaldi is an accomplished actor and he carries his manic melancholia in the role (a shift from zany and comedic Smith) effortlessly, and yes @arbutus I think he’s very sexy in the part too.
Why is he wearing the face of Lucius Caecilius from The Fires of Pompeii? I think, because he saved him. Hence, he can save himself from whatever darkness, perhaps from within (perhaps the Valeyard) is coming.
Whilst characterisation was well-served in this episode, I think plot was rather less so. The dinosaur was a bit of whizz-bang. The mechanoid from the SS Marie Antoinette was a crude mirror for our Time Lord and for existential questions about change, continuity and regeneration, sure. But honestly, I wanted a plot, not simply a plot device.
I like @bluesqueakpip ‘s suggestion that Missy is the Master too. But Paradise did seem a lot like the Library…
Finally, I thought the age issue was a teensy bit over-laboured. I don’t think we needed to be whacked quite so hard and repeatedly over the head with it, but I certainly prefer the Clara-Capaldi to the Clara-Smithy dynamic. Amy was Smith’s companion, from fish fingers to farewell, and Clara never really worked for him as a replacement IMHO.
So farewell Smithy with your lovely slapstick wobbly dancing, your flashes of ire and your great romance with River Song, and welcome Capaldi, a little lost, a lot snarky, and a great deal intriguingly complicated.
30 July 2014 at 21:04 #29459@wolfweed Thanks for the pic – sartorially I am liking Capaldi’s Doctor very much indeed so far.
Of course <sniff> I’m still in mourning for Smithy’s bow-ties.
Have we seen his sonic yet?
30 July 2014 at 20:58 #29458Hello 🙂 @takemetomyraggedyman – excellent so far! Did you knit the scarf?
28 July 2014 at 22:09 #29432@bluesqueakpip I may be in heartbroken denial, but I don’t see why River and Twelve can’t meet up.
I’d love to see Alex Kingston and Peter Capaldi acting together for one – fun and fur flying. Plus, the vagaries of time travel certainly allow for it, should the Moff so wish it.
So yes, not so sure Capaldi will be entirely disinterested in flirting altogether just because it won’t be with Clara (a relief frankly).
28 July 2014 at 21:43 #29430Has anyone else seen @danmartin is back at the Graun with a naughty (as in hopefully anticipating howls of dissent of various kinds in the comments 🙂 ] article about Capaldi, Clara and no “hanky panky” on the TARDIS ?
27 July 2014 at 22:37 #29416MILD SPOILERS FOR Dawn of the Planet of the Apes
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Just been to see it (in 3D) with an old friend and have to report that we were both deeply disappointed. It’s true, as all the official reviews concur, Andy Serkis as Caesar is great, but, after the interesting and surprisingly intelligent Rise of the Planet of the Apes (2011) this sequel suffered from all the usual Hollywood blockbuster foibles – bloat (easily could have left an hour on the cutting room floor) the apparently obligatory obsession with the nuclear family <big yawn> and too many guns.
On top of that, all the actors were (no doubt because of the first movie’s excellent reviews) determined to deliver the, mediocre, script this time around with all the ponderous grandiosity of declaimed Shakespeare. Plus, watch out for the incongruous tablet product placement in the midst of post apocalypse – truly – no.
Certainly, it’s unusual for a blockbuster to make the heart long for peace, and in these terrible times for Israel/ Palestine, just how hard it is for those who would make peace to do so, when atrocities have been committed on both sides, was undoubtedly poignant. But, this was another big movie so enamoured by its own special effects that it forgot to tell a story other than by formula.
I would, regrettably give this 2 stars out of 10.
27 July 2014 at 22:12 #29414@phaseshift 🙂 “swishy goodness” – thanks for the welcome x It’s good to be back to this salubrious corner of the Whoniverse.
I have never seen Mark of the Rani but @phaseshift‘s “arse gravy” and @bluesqueakpip‘s poker option don’t fill me with tremendous confidence it must be said! Apologies to comrade @Blenkinsopthebrave .
I won’t get to watch it with you folks, as I am ploughing through other things for work at the mo – but I will certainly enjoy the commentary!
@miapatrick – I’ll discuss Game of Thrones with you – but perhaps the general TV thread will suffice – once the new season starts…
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