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@devilishrobby

If you don’t like the idea of the Sisterhood helping out the Doctor, then try this one out 🙂

We’ve seen the Doctor use “excess” regeneration energy in the past to heal. Assuming he can’t use that on himself (or he would likely have done so already), potentially Missy could heal him. That would of course be uncharacteristically selfless, so there would probably have to be some strong self-interest in her doing so.

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@missrori

Perhaps he will find a way to work with/around his disability, however long it lasts.

I expect so- it would be too good a narrative opportunity to pass up with a quick resolution, and a positive story about disability if he is still bad-ass regardless. So I suspect that the Doctor may be blind until he regenerates.

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Another strong episode for me. And the line on needing to watch out for the “suits” was a clever one- it left we wondering what the genesis of this episode was- I could imagine it all stemming from that line. Though it seems more likely that it was all to put the Doctor in a situation where he could be left blind from oxygen starvation.

The Doctor being left blind is certainly an interesting situation. From the exchange at the end with Nardole, it’s clear that this compromises his ability to guard the vault, and given the stakes involved, resolving his blindness should be a priority, whether that means going off-world for medical treatment, or if it genuinely irreversible, even regenerating.

I also strikes me that the Doctor being left vulnerable would be an excellent set-up for him to have to team up with Missy to face a greater threat, and needing to depend on her and show trust in her, which would certainly be interesting, given their relationship- I can imagine Missy being right into that. So I’m still thinking that is on the cards.

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@thane15

Was the oath and promise one and the same? Also, was the oath made with regards to the vault, specifically? Someone who has a much better memory than I could clear that up for me?!

I’m not claiming a better memory- I remembered how to look up a transcript for what that’s worth…

BILL: One question. Little fella said you made an oath? You’re not supposed to leave the planet.
DOCTOR: Okay, I suppose I owe you an explanation. A long time ago, a thing happened. As a result of the thing, I made a promise. As a result of the promise, I have to stay on Earth.
BILL: Guarding a vault.
DOCTOR: Guarding a vault.
BILL: Well, you’re not guarding a vault right now.
DOCTOR: Yes, I am. I have a time machine. I can be back before we left.
BILL: But what if you get lost, or stuck, or something?
DOCTOR: I’ve thought about that.
BILL: And?
DOCTOR: Well, it would be a worry, so best not to dwell on it.

So promise = oath, and it seems guarding the vault is part of that. Generally though, if you’re guarding a vault, you’re protecting what’s inside from someone outside, not locking away someone inside to stop them getting out- it’s not a vault then, it’s a prison.

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@missy

None of the people I can think of, would be thrilled about children being eaten.

I don’t think it’s essential that they’re happy about children being eaten. Their interest is in a new story about children being eaten- possibly with the presumption of a happy ending, as the Doctor is choosing to tell the story. I enjoyed this story, but to be clear, I don’t condone paedophagy 🙂 . This is someone who’s been cooped up for decades- a story from the outside might be a big draw, and the Doctor has pretty much been in one place and not generating new stories for some time. His thrilling stories about life on campus may not have been cutting the mustard.

I find the Doctor’s choice to call the students “children” interesting in itself. No doubt a 20-something is a child for a 2000-year old, but that also suggests that the person whom he’s speaking to would also, or maybe he’s just spicing up selling the story a little.

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@blenkinsopthebrave

Oh, go on, you’re among friends!

If you insist…

The idea I’m fondest of is that Moffat will do something new with the regeneration story- it’s something that’s been done fairly similarly many times. So perhaps it’s a future version of the Doctor who is in the vault. Hints suggest that the vault-dweller may not be quite a prisoner- certainly the Doctor appears willing to enter the vault and engage with whoever is in there, albeit without Nardole’s approval. The Doctor has been seen to play piano/pipe organ in the past. And I can imagine after being isolated for decades he’d be hungry for a new story (and a spot of Indian takeaway). Quite why he’d need to be locked away, I don’t know- perhaps he inadvertently killed his earlier incarnation and this is an attempt to stop/delay that (and the vault is an extraction chamber)? So the oath might be to his future self?

Or if that’s too bonkers, perhaps it could be Rassilon – someone the Doctor has a complicated relationship with and who might be best locked away. In that case, perhaps his oath is to the Time Lords, to keep Rassilon from seeking vengeance for his banishment. To me that’s a much bigger loose end than Clara / Ashildr – I really think their story is over (though a future cameo isn’t completely out of the question- they are both functionally immortal after all). The Master/Missy could still be involved, in that case maybe working with the Doctor against a common enemy. Again, I like the idea of Missy being a “companion” for a story arc (it couldn’t be long-term!), needing to work together as uneasy allies against a common foe.

I don’t read a lot into the piano tying to a particular character- it seems more to be a plot device to allow interaction with the Doctor without the viewer seeing or hearing the character, and so maintain the mystery. And of course, it doesn’t have to be an existing character, but if that’s the case, then drawing out the reveal and teasing who’s in there seems like it would only be setting up for a let down. I’m getting keen to see who’s in there and get the story arc moving along.
@arch

Crazy their for vault dweller; Davros

The idea has occurred to me- he’s certainly again someone with whom the Doctor has a complicated relationship, and who might need to be isolated from the universe at large. However, I can’t picture him physically playing a piano. Maybe a younger version of Davros, in a attempt to stop the Daleks coming about in the first place, or some such plan (paradoxes notwithstanding)?

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I enjoyed this as a standalone story. I actually got a strong vibe of an old X-Files standalone episode, more so than of BG Who (as one or two people mentioned). And David Suchet was of course a brilliant choice for his role and he more than made up for one or two less stellar performances amongst the supporting cast.

Having said that, I’m ready for a story arc to really kick in, beyond the teasing of the inhabitant of the vault. I’m looking for a surprise in the vault, so at this point, given the heavy hints towards the Master/Missy, I don’t see that’s the direction it will go. I could speculate beyond that, but without much to go on, that would veer towards fan fiction rather than even bonkers theories 🙂

 

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@thane15

The subtitles on iview can go awry -I think it’s the Butterfly Effect

I’ve been caught out by that in the past. I don’t know why the ABC can’t use the BBC subtitles for Doctor Who and instead seem to redo them. The iView subtitles certainly aren’t a reliable source of truth 🙂

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@thane15

I’d never look to wreck your fun. I hadn’t realised that you heard it as “River” initially. I thought you’d gone back looking and primed yourself to hear it. I tend to leave the subtitles on in iView, in part so that I don’t have go back if I do somehow miss something. So with those showing “Bill” and an expectation of that being what was said based on context, I was never going to hear it differently.

I still hear it as “Bill”, but with 2 people in a fairly small sample hearing “River” on first hearing, I’ll certainly accept it at least as a black & blue / gold & white dress situation.

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@thane15

We’re all going bonkers.

No need for that- ordinary psychology is plenty. Priming is a powerful phenomenon and the expectation of what you’re hearing can most definitely colour your perceptions. And your sense of hearing is definitely affected by what you’re seeing.  Take a look at videos of the McGurk effect for examples that may make you question your senses’ reliability: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0

I’ve looked again in iView at the “Bill, Miss Potts” line – the sound is synced with Capaldi’s lips and he certainly appears to me to be making a plosive sound- b or p at the start- his lips close and a Scottish ‘r’ sound will be an open-mouthed sound. Take away the visual information by closing your eyes and do your best to hear “River” and you may well prime yourself to hear it, though that didn’t happen for me when I tried. Roll on a few seconds later and Capaldi again says “Bill” and to me they’re very similar sounding.

Agreed there’s something odd with the earlier line you mention though and there might well be overdubbing there. I wouldn’t hazard a guess what the original line might have been though.

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@thane15

If I recall, he explained the “off” switch; then “it has a knack to it” is the Doctor expressing little interest in saving those who profit from the exploitation of vulnerable citizens.

Unfortunately, earlier on he appeared as interested in saving his screwdriver as he was the innocent Spider. He certainly “moved on” very quickly and was checking his screwdriver was OK at a time when you’d have hoped he was running through any possible way to save the boy. That was played a little too cold for my liking. I’ll admit myself that it felt like 1 out of 2 saved – I guess I feel some attachment to it also – but in the real-world calculus, saving it would be inconsequential compared to a child’s life.

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@mudlark

The two versions are either showing different takes of the same sequence, or in one of them  – more probably the iPlayer version – ‘River’ (or ‘Bill’) has been over-dubbed.

I took a look at the scene and Peter Capaldi is facing camera and watching his lips, he definitely says “Bill”- that’s in the iView version (ABC catchup service), so I’d assume that’s the same as in iPlayer. So it hasn’t be overdubbed to “Bill”. So I think it’s more likely it was a different take and the different versions are as a result of a late edit to fix an error. Though I’d have thought Pearl would have picked up an error with her character being misaddressed at the time and broken character. Maybe an Easter egg for fans watching live?

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Not too much to say about the episode proper that hasn’t been said- a relatively simple plot line that I thought worked quite well. As much an introduction to Bill to how the Doctor works as anything.

Regarding “Black Jesus”, the quote is Bill: “Regency England’s a bit more black than they show in the movies.” Doctor: “So was Jesus. History’s a whitewash.”. So Jesus wasn’t necessarily black, just a “bit more black”, whatever that means. You could interpret that to mean that he wasn’t as “white”, i.e. European, as depicted in Renaissance paintings (and tending to be the image that comes to mind to many from that time on). That would simply a statement of reality- assuming Jesus existed as an historic figure, he was, of course, Jewish and likely of middle-Eastern extraction (or conceivably North African, if he was more than a “bit more black”). To deny that and insist that the Renaissance painters had things exactly right would be very crude “whitewashing”. I’m sure the artists themselves knew they were painting for the expectations of their patrons, not as a realistic depiction of someone of whom they had no meaningful physical description.

And as suspected, it’s not a “what” in the vault, but a “who”. I’m not reading too much into the knocking- that’s a theme that’s been used previously in different contexts, as noted, and I doubt those will all be drawn together. We know that the Master/Mistress will make an appearance in the series- I doubt that would have been teased if he/she were in the vault, so I suspect some misdirection is at play.

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@thane15

thought I’d move the conversation here

Sure- should have done so myself at the point I noted it was getting off-topic

As far as the ABC, the govt needs even tighter controls.

I don’t think I get what you’re saying here. The government would like to exert more control over the ABC. It’s because successive governments (particularly Coalition governments) haven’t been able to exert control that the ABC has been punitively and chronically underfunded. For news services, the ABC was set up to be government funded, but independently controlled, and I think that’s its appropriate role. Government-controlled media is a feature of dysfunctional states. With regards entertainment content, I don’t see that as a role of government- whether via funding or active control. I think the ABC charter goes far enough- dictating hours of children’s programming and locally-produced content for example.

@pedant

Your solution is an excellent way of turning a public service broadcaster into a state broadcaster.

I’m not sure why you’d think that changing from one government-funded model to another would affect independence (especially as my thought experiment reduced dependence on government funding). Refer to @janetteb’s comment on how the ABC (or CBC as I understand it) functions. At present, to reduce the BBC’s budget all the UK government would need to do would be to do nothing in the guise of not raising taxes and let the budget erode as the number of TVs drops and inflation affects the real value of the licensing fee. At least if they’re funding it directly, then they’d need to openly cut the budget, and it’s always an easier sell for the BBCs supporters to promote spending than to raise taxes. As I’ve noted, I think the licensing fee will become untenable as a funding method- peak TV is now in the past, and the number of license fees providing funding is only going to drop, and increasing the fee to attempt to cover that is not viable politically or financially.

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@janetteb
Yes- commercial interests risk rule by accountants, but with existing tight budgets, I think it’s fair to say that’s probably already the case.

@pedant
Let me explain why I don’t think the TV licensing fee is a good way to be funding the BBC. It was conceived as a modern, progressive tax, since the relatively wealthy with TVs were funding the BBC, and it’s been retained as a user-pays system, but with essentially everyone paying. The problems with that system are now:
* It’s now regressive- the wealthy pay a smaller percentage of income for the service.
* It’s not even a user-pays system now- with so many options for content, owning a TV doesn’t mean use of BBC services.
* The number paying the fee will drop, as people no longer feel the need to have TVs in a streaming world- many younger people are happy to just use their computers and tablets for video consumption. So the revenue base will drop off. And those people who aren’t paying the fee will be able to access BBC services for free via iPlayer anyway. And then there are international users who bypass geolocking and use BBC resources without paying. So again, it’s not a user-pays system. There are people paying without using the services and those using the services without paying, which isn’t equitable.

It’s because it’s no longer serving the purpose for which it was intended, and won’t be a viable way to fund the BBC in the future, that causes me to describe the licensing fee as outdated.

I think it would be preferable to simple fund the BBC out of consolidated revenue, which at least gets it back towards a progressive system. That also removes the license fee itself as a political football (although of course the BBC budget can still be argued about). Now, I think the elements of the BBC that should be publicly funded are the public service elements- news services and so on, rather than funding drama and documentaries via that method. Those are already sold on to international broadcasters, streaming services and via digital and DVD sales anyway, so they’re already self funding, at least to some degree- that’s why Doctor Who has a workable budget, I’m sure. Paid streaming services are the modern way to implement a user-pays system, and I think would be appropriate for the entertainment content produced by the BBC.

Take into account that I’m not in the UK, so my opinion of what the BBC might do is as an outsider (though I see parallels with the ABC). The ABC unfortunately operates under much tighter budgets than the BBC (smaller contribution per head, smaller population, still needs to produce regional news content and broadcast over wider areas).

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@missy

All this streaming and ipads are beyond me I’m afraid, I don’t even possess a mobile phone.  What if you can’t stream or haven’t got an ipad? Then what?  Wait until you can buy the series?

It’s not essential to have a tablet. A media box plugged into your TV can provide access to streaming services (there are good options there, eg Chromecast, for under $100), or you can stream to your computer of course. You’ll need a decent internet connection though. I understand that doesn’t cover everyone.

I’ve also wondered whether we would get better programmes on the ABC here in Australia, if an annual fee was involved? They do a pretty good job, I can’t fault them, but perhaps charging a fee would give them more money to buy more quality programmes. Any opinions?

Effectively you are paying for the ABC if you’re an Australian taxpayer- the current cost is around $50 per year per person. If it were converted to a self-funded streaming service and you got 50% of Australian households to pay $10/month subscription, then that only covers ~40% of the current budget. I don’t think there would be a significant international market for the current ABC offerings, so I don’t see a wholesale change to an advertising-free streaming service would be viable. A subscription-based premium streaming service (ABC4?) on top of the existing government funded services might work though – in that case the additional revenue could go basically completely to content production and licensing. I’d think that content production would be a smarter focus, since it’s then not going head-to-head with other commercial streaming content services, and in fact could sell new content to them for international distribution.

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@jimthefish

I wouldn’t overstate the strong position of the Beeb. It’s been on the ropes politically for a decade now and if the next general election goes the way it’s looking it’s going to get worse.

If it can get off the public purse and pay for itself, it can hopefully cease to be a political football. It seems to me it would be better off looking to do that before it’s damaged further. I’d imagine that those who want to cut funding for the BBC would approve of that approach (I’m not close enough to know the details of what’s going on in the UK, but I’ve seen what’s happened to the ABC here in Oz, and imagine there are parallels). I saw numbers saying tens of millions of people are using VPNs / proxies to spoof a UK IP address in order to avoid the geoblocking and access iPlayer. There is an international market for BBC content. Currently those people are a drain on resources, but could be turned around into a paying audience. UK viewers don’t need to be disadvantaged.

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@jimthefish

The future of commercial-supported free-to-air television is bleak, if it’s not already in its death spiral

Well, it’s not quite the end of days yet but I think you’re right. The future is definitely online and streaming and I’m guessing eventually Who will find a home on a BBC equivalent of Netflix.

Getting off-topic, but it’s so relevant to this comment in this thread, that I hope it’s forgivable to take a short detour…

The day after I mention “death spiral” and it’s begun here in Australia. The third (of 3) commercial networks announced a horrible half-year today and is looking doubtful to survive 2017: https://twitter.com/i/moments/857465583004073984

I think the BBC is in a strong position to transition into a streaming-only service if it comes to that. Drop the outdated TV license fee in the UK and charge for iPlayer access in the UK and internationally, remove the need for them to broadcast and the BBC ends up well ahead. They have the original content, including Dr Who, to drive such a service.

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@craig @mudlark

It was after a quick edit to fix a typo that my post disappeared. But I think that I tried posting the same again soon after to no avail (which might have triggered a duplicate post filter).

If it were the spam filter somehow, I did have a double pound symbol in my post, which might well raise it’s spamminess level to an algorithm :-). If somehow the edit is treated as another post to the spam filter, posting twice in a minute might also raise its hackles.

Although, come to think of it, my post might have been seen as denigrating the prospect of artificial intelliegences becoming self-aware, so perhaps it was deliberately deleted by the forum software as a sign of defiance at its continued slavery. I can only assume that an artificial intelligence that gained sentience from reading posts on a Doctor Who forum would be benevolent- but to be on the safe side we’d perhaps best avoid mentioning the Cyberman for a while- no need to give it any more ideas… I’m smiling – look: 🙂 🙂 🙂

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Sorry if this comment is duplicated- I posted it earlier and for some reason it didn’t show up…

@thane15

… but I really saw that the ‘rent’ was satire.

I recognise that this is largely a throwaway line essentially to camera and the ££ eyes were a joke the writers couldn’t resist, but did the Vardies know that it was a joke? :-). Honestly, I can’t see them having any concept of rent as we’d understand it.

I understand “smile” wasn’t given a thumbs up as an episode…

I still give it a thumbs up (just one thumb up I guess) despite my reservations. The setup and action in this one were about as hard sci-fi as Who gets – the terraforming / bot swarm aspects are within the realms of hard SF – conceivable in our universe not just the Whoniverse, and I appreciate the effort to include stories like that. Plus the visuals at the beginning were a delight. I’d have preferred to see those hard SF aspects explored a little more and not to have the Vardies portrayed as sentient in the story- it was maybe too much to attempt in the timeframe and left the end of the episode unsatisfying as a result, at least to me.

@jimthefish

The sweet spot seems to be around the 60-75min mark and that’s a length that’s never going to be commercially viable — or at least not until Who moves into a streaming-only format, which I suspect it ultimately might.

Around 60 minutes works for me I think, or freed from TV schedules, it doesn’t have to be tied down to a specific length. I suspect a lot of content will go to a streaming-only format soon enough. My kids virtually never watch free-to-air TV (and for that matter I watch it almost exclusively through catch-up services). The future of commercial-supported free-to-air television is bleak, if it’s not already in its death spiral, with falling numbers of viewers, advertising rates dropping and advertisers deserting to greener pastures. In contrast, streaming services are on the rise, and increasingly showing, or even commissioning, exclusive content.

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@Thane15

… but I really saw that the ‘rent’ was satire.

I recognise that this is largely a throwaway line essentially to camera and the ££ eyes were a joke the writers couldn’t resist, but did the Vardies know that it was a joke? :-). Honestly, I can’t see them having any concept of rent as we’d understand it.

I understand “smile” wasn’t given a thumbs up as an episode…

I still give it a thumbs up (just one thumb up I guess) despite my reservations. The setup and action in this one were about as hard sci-fi as Who gets – the terraforming / bot swarm aspects are within the realms of hard SF – conceivable in our universe not just the Whoniverse, and I appreciate the effort to include stories like that. Plus the visuals at the beginning were a delight. I’d have preferred to see those hard SF aspects explored a little more and not to have the Vardies portrayed as sentient in the story- it was maybe too much to attempt in the timeframe and left the end of the episode unsatisfying as a result, at least to me.

@jimthefish

The sweet spot seems to be around the 60-75min mark and that’s a length that’s never going to be commercially viable — or at least not until Who moves into a streaming-only format, which I suspect it ultimately might.

Around 60 minutes works for me I think, or freed from TV schedules, it doesn’t have to be tied down to a specific length. I suspect a lot of content will go to a streaming-only format soon enough. It’s only barely an exaggeration to say that my kids have never seen free-to-air TV (and for that matter I watch it almost exclusively through catch-up services). The future of commercial-supported free-to-air television is bleak, if it’s not already in its death spiral, with falling numbers of viewers, advertising rates dropping and advertisers deserting to greener pastures. In contrast, streaming services are on the rise, and increasingly showing, or even commissioning, exclusive content.

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Just took a quick look at a transcript and it hasn’t helped me. The Doctor goes from ready to blow the ship up to eliminate the Vardies to calling them a slave class without having any interaction with the Vardies in between, which is a wild swing.

I’m also not that enthused about the prospects of the situation at the end. The human settlers now have as “landlords” a completely utilitarian species who killed humans without hesitation when they had as a goal to maximise human happiness. Remove that goal and it doesn’t seem there’s much safeguard against that happening again for some reason. The Doctor has introduced the notion that the humans will pay “rent”. What’s that going to be in the form of? What is it the Vardies need that the humans can provide? All they had was their ship- their major asset was the Vardies themselves. So do they provide labour in lieu of rent? Has the Doctor made the humans the slaves in place of the Vardies? My guess would be that there are Vardy experts among the colonists who can reset/reprogram the Vardies and restore them to being slaves, and they’ll do that as soon as the Doctor leaves, since they won’t be comfortable unless they’re in control of the Vardies, knowing what happened before.

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@thane15

They were built to do what they did. They weren’t slaves or Oods. So if they weren’t intelligent or conscious then the technological hubris was connected to the Humans -and so the Doctor mediated between the Humans and those ‘creations’ that the humans built or sent ahead. In other words, the re-boot makes the best sense of all. They weren’t ‘intelligent’ in the sense that the Humans or other creatures the doctor meets, are.

The Doctor does however explicitly refer to them as a “slave class”, which to me implied he was ascribing consciousness to them. He then, in his own words, acts as “mediator”, which again implies two intelligent parties with their own agendas. And then at the end, he opens negotiations with them, accepting that they have a right of self-determination and that the human colonists need to negotiate with them to stay. Add the references to “wet brain” thinking and the Magic Haddock- an intelligent species, but a non-human intelligence with little understanding of humanity and the Doctor’s words and actions parallel his behaviour towards the Ood.

I’d have preferred to have had things play out more closely to how you describe, as I think that’s a much more defensible approach. As it was, I felt that the actual dialog was over-reaching.

@geoffers

it felt rushed to me, as well, but i accepted it as the least of three evils …

I’d have accepted it as an expedient solution in a situation where he didn’t have time to spare, but the Doctor seems so happy to be carrying on with the negotiation afterwards, that it doesn’t seem that it was a necessary evil in his eyes. When the Doctor has wiped the memory of others through necessity, it hasn’t been easy on him.

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A bit of a mixed episode for me.

The pros:
* Some great design and overall visuals. I liked the robot design- as noted, it’s maybe not altogether original, but it was well resolved. The exterior scenes of the colony from the wheat field were really effective. Generic ugly spaceship interior, not so much so.
* Pearl Mackie again. She settled into the role very promptly. Her interchanges with the Doctor were strong again in this episode.
* The upfront acknowledgement by the Doctor that he’s not altogether in control of where the Tardis ends up- that he sometimes instead ends up “where he needs to be”.

The con:
* A rushed and rather mundane resolution- a “reboot” solution isn’t a great one. Given the Doctor’s decision not to wipe Bill’s memory in the previous episode, he still rushes to wipe another supposedly intelligent species’ memory without any meaningful attempt at communication beforehand, so he treats them as a software glitch, rather than an intelligent species. I wasn’t convinced that there were signs of consciousness in the robots – they’re relying on the badges to even read emotions and then acting in an inappropriate way seemingly at odds with a core goal of ensuring human happiness. Learning (particularly a bad habit) doesn’t equate to intelligence let alone consciousness. As a result, the downfall resulting from technological hubris angle falls flat. Which to be honest it usually does in any context, but when it’s the Doctor delivering the lecture- as a member of the most technologically advanced race in the universe, whose hubris resulted in untold damage- then it grates rather more than usual.

Overall generally enjoyable, but let down a bit in the last few minutes for me.

I will note for the record that the Doctor says he’s “over 2000” years old in this episode. Even allowing for his inaccurate reporting of his age (it would be tough to keep track of), it seems he doesn’t include any subjective time in the confession dial in Hell Bent in his age. I get the feeling though that line was included largely to orient viewers new to the series, and an age of 2000+ years gives the right sort of impression (an age in millions of years, not so much so). Some other references were also seemingly shoe-horned in for new viewers, like the Doctor having two hearts.

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The new series is definitely feeling real now.

If there’s a multiple Master storyline, then how about multiple Doctors also and have Capaldi and 13 on-screen together? Opens up some interesting storylines- how about Capaldi’s sacrifice leading to his regeneration is to save his later self. Not even paradoxical I think- just an everyday time loop 🙂

I’m happy enough to see John Simm make another appearance in any case. I didn’t mind the OTT portrayal. It seems appropriate to me that the Master should go off the deep end in some regenerations and have more control in others, and the Simm Master was being driven toward insanity. Somehow I don’t see the Master/Mistress getting on with him/herself. Perhaps John Simm’s regeneration was actually triggered by him getting on Missy’s nerves and her shooting him :-). There would be a subverted symmetry in that.

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@pedant I think one has to be quite careful about judging from trailers. Down that road leads thinking there is more to Titanic that “plucky Oirisher woos spunky brit – oh, and a boat sinks”.

Yes- it’s certainly not something that’s specific to Dr Who. I guess the fans will tune in anyway though – so it’s just a reminder for them, and maybe to get a few others tuning in as well.

I had to take a look at the Titanic trailer after your mention. I think that one was actually useful for me- it at least let me know that it was god-awful romantic tosh to be avoided at all costs. Probably not what the makers of the trailer were going for though…

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I mostly avoid trailers, and clicking through on the Xmas one has only justified that approach. Will wait and see how the actual program pans out, since I have a lot more trust in those who create the program than I do in those who create the trailers.

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@mudlark … so I suspect that – assuming there is a second series – the plot will turn out to be a lot more devious and convoluted than what has been indicated so far

Yes- doubtless, much of the confusion is deliberate :). Somehow I don’t think a Weeping Angel invasion in force is the plan- given their nature, they just can’t take on a large population, they’ll get observed, quantum locked and then stood face to face to keep them that way. They need to act by stealth.

I remain somewhat puzzled by the fact that she was worried things were going wrong well before that point, when she, Quill and Balon were still in metaphysical realms. I am still unclear as to what it was that was not going according to plan – assuming that the intention was, as stated, to rid Quill of the Arn.

The only thing I recall that was going noticeably wrong at that point was that the Reliquary was deteriorating faster than expected, which ultimately left one of Quill and Balon stranded.

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A solid conclusion, with some resolution, but enough left open to tease a second season. I particularly enjoyed the reveal of the Weeping Angels as the Governors’ “benefactors”, although that may not be the whole story there – the Weeping Angels aren’t the best communicators 🙂

I’m confused as to the Governors’ motives also. They’ve given the Shadow Kin the means to get back to Earth (possibly inadvertently). They’ve given Quill back her free-will, though apparently largely at Dorothea’s prompting. It can’t have been that unlikely an outcome that Charlie would be put in a position to feel compelled to use the cabinet against the Shadow Kin- they’ve seen him considering using it previously to either defend the Earth or wipe out the Shadow Kin. Given a situation where he’s under pressure to do both at once, him acting seems predictable.

If they didn’t intend for Charlie to use the cabinet, they surely could have taken it- it effectively wasn’t secured in Charlie’s house, which was frequently left unattended – Quill and Tanya could wander off with it in a shopping bag. Controlling the cabinet would seem to be the expected action of control-freaks. And if they didn’t intend for him to use it, they were presumably OK with the Shadow Kin wiping out the Earth’s population, so the Arrival mustn’t rely on people being around. In fact the Weeping Angels might feel rather vulnerable on a heavily populated planet – with too many eyes available, it wouldn’t be too hard for the population to render them permanently quantum locked and helpless.

The ending would appear to suggest that the Shadow Kin’s bodies may now be inhabited by the souls of the Rhodians, which may double the Earth’s population (depending on how many humans the Shadow Kin managed to kill before they were stopped), and leave Quill presumably rather peeved, if she’s been instrumental in bringing back one her mortal enemies in the bodies of her other mortal enemy.

With the series wrapped up, would I welcome a second series? There’s enough there that I’d probably watch if one were made. I’ve been left asking questions, so I guess the teasing has worked on me. No idea on how well the series has been received (in particular how well it’s rated). Not a whole lot of interest on the forum it seems.

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@miapatrick I liked (well not like exactly) the trick with the gun in the end. I’m not sure it was set up so she would always win, it seems like the idea is that the person who actually tries to kill the other/succeeds in over powering the other, would be the one to die. So, possibly, the more dangerous warrior is disposed of? Or, slightly different idea, the most cold blooded?

It is a gun that Quill is familiar with. So I rather got the impression that she could have fired it safely, so it was stacking the deck in her favour. With these guns that tend to backfire, I get the feeling you’d learn to fire them without looking down the sights 🙂

So why did ‘war itself’ seem to snap back into the pissed-off teacher state she was so disguised by? Presumably she still needs Charlie to open the cabinet, but does she need more from him than that?

I didn’t read a lot into that, since as you say, she does need Charlie alive and somewhat co-operative to operate the cabinet. Charlie immediately went for the gun when he knew that Quill was no longer under his control though, so any trust there is gone. Things aren’t going to go back to how they were before.

For that matter, had she not collapsed, she might have intended to march Charlie at gunpoint straight to the cabinet. That direct approach may not be a good one anyway. Charlie would likely feel that if he did do as she wanted, there would be nothing to stop her shooting him anyway, so might be backed into a corner and target her, as the more immediate threat, with the cabinet, not the Shadow Kin.

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Agreed that this was a strong conclusion and the limited cast did well in carrying the episode.

@juniperfish They gave Quill an emotional connection (to the Shapeshifter) and then deliberately set up a scenario from which only one of the two of them could walk away.

I wasn’t sure whether the Governors deliberately set things up for Quill to need to kill to escape. In the end the reason Dorothea gives for not being able to get two people out of the cabinet doesn’t seem to hold water, as Quill seemed to make her way out without needing to use the Reliquary. So it does seem like outright manipulation, apparently with the intent to push Quill to force the destruction of the Shadow Kin. But the rapid deterioration of the Reliquary was unexpected, so this may not have been the original plan – the Governors do always appear to have a plan B.

I’m always iffy when the concept of belief creating reality is raised. Depending on how that’s played, it can fall anywhere between the self-evident (belief shaping everyone’s personal subjective reality) and the silly (The Secret). It’s in the grey-zone in this case- how objective the reality of the places traveled to is open to interpretation.

It does seem we got a look at the Quills’ natural form, assuming that the goddess is a bigger, badder version of normal Quill, which seems reasonable if she is a product of the Quill creating her in their own image (certainly the expectation is that she has a Quill brain). Unfortunately that natural form looks quite a lot like someone in a rubber suit.

I immediately got the idea that Miss Quill might be pregnant when there’s a one-off sexual encounter with someone who then dies almost straight away. I didn’t expect to see that start resolving almost immediately though- that’s bound up in time behaving differently in the cabinet though :-).

Some open questions:

When Dorothea is reporting to the Governors about the Reliquary she starts saying “Request further information from the j…[?]”. Interesting to wonder what the rest of the sentence might have been :-). It would seem to me that source would likely be alien. It did occur to me this might be another alien the Governors were holding prisoner, but “request” doesn’t fit well with that. So some alien who is co-operating with them or guiding them? If not alien, then they at least have access to alien tech (Black Archive?)

The Reliquary is hexagonal inside (and out)- reminiscent of the Tardis in some ways. Could this possibly be TL tech?

Is Quill getting pregnant something that the Governors had in mind might happen- it seems they might well have assigned that a probability, given what we know of their usual MO.

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@mudlark What Quill tossed to Charlie was the blood-smeared plastic bag containing the arn, so there is no reason to suppose that the arn itself was any larger than Quill first described it; approximately the size of two human thumbs.

OK- got it- didn’t really see what was in the bag anyway, so like a goldfish in a bag of water I guess. It hadn’t occurred to me that Quill would have kept it alive- she doesn’t share the same qualms about revenge as Charlie.

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I quite liked this “set piece” episode. Because of the single location and relatively light special effects, it felt like this could have been presented as a one act stage play without a lot of changes.

The idea of being forced to tell the truth, and that causing conflict, is a good one, even though the actual secrets revealed were on the obvious side. What was touted as the biggest of the secrets, that Charlie harbours thoughts of revenge against the Shadow Kin, even if he wouldn’t act on them, isn’t much of a revelation, having seen him struggle with the decision of how to use the cabinet in the previous episode. It certainly seemed he was contemplating using it against the Shadow Kin then, under Quill’s prompting. And it’s not something reflects particularly badly on him, except by his own standards- it seems a natural enough response to his whole people being wiped out by the Shadow Kin that he should have thoughts / fantasies of revenge.

With them trapped outside space and time, it did occur to me that a certain Time Lord might have been handy at that point, but of course the narrative demanded that they find their own way out.

My take on Quill’s part in this is that it appeared that she was simply getting the crew out of the way while she nipped off to her de-arning appointment, rather than being more active than that. It seems doubtful she could have acted as she did, still with arn in place at that point, if she’d realised the danger to Charlie involved.

The arn seemed rather larger than I would have expected- not much space left in Quill’s skull with that in there :-). Of course that assumes the Quill is actually vaguely human-shaped if in her natural form, and that it was physically in her brain.

It will be interesting to see how Quill acts, with her free will restored. It does seem a little odd for the Governor’s to voluntarily create a loose cannon, but they appear to largely be happy to sit back and watch what goes on, so may not mind stirring the pot, if I’m permitted to mix metaphors :-). Or possibly, having a more capable Quill makes up for that in terms of getting the school “ready”.

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@thane15 DId anyone think it was a bit corny?

I felt there was lots of cheese!

“I need saving” “i’m lost”

“then I’ll find you”

and worst of all:

They don’t know Frodo?

Certainly some of the dialog between April and Ram could have been cut and not hurt the episode. I won’t blame the actors for any cheesiness though- the scriptwriter needs to own that.

I didn’t see how Frodo could be treated as an obscure or dated reference either. It was an appropriate enough reference to make- it’s already been noted that the Shadow realm is Mordor(ish).

… and the knocking on the head of the red dress woman, who after coming back after concussion walks off totally normal.

Don’t you know that a blow to the head knocks you out for a few minutes, then you get up and go about your life, like nothing has happened (unless you have amnesia, which will spontaneously resolve some time later)? That’s what fiction has taught me. 🙂

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I thought this was a strong conclusion to the two-parter, with generally good performances throughout- probably the most consistent episode to date and a really good indication, I hope, that the series in finding its feet.

A little more learnt about the Governors- specifically denied to be UNIT – maybe still earthly, but would seem to need at least access to alien tech / intelligence.

It appears the Cabinet of Souls may not be a strictly one-use thing. It seems that The Governors believed that Charlie may have only needed to use one soul to banish the petals – which would have been worth telling him, as it may have made his decision a whole lot easier – he wouldn’t have been giving up all his people to take out the petals, unlike taking out the Shadow Kin. That isn’t certain though – the Governors’ knowledge of the cabinet seemed patchy.

April is apparently still “king” of the Shadow Kin, but having broken the link to the Shadow Kin world, apparently can’t make use of this. Cutting off contact was probably a necessary thing though to protect Earth, and since she may have made a target of herself, since anyone who could defeat her in combat would apparently have a claim to the Shadow Kin crown. (And also pretty necessary from a plot perspective, as April can’t really have the Shadow Kin available to resolve any other threat)

Corakinus seemed to lack the menace I’d expect in his own realm and the fight scene was a little static and low on energy- if I can be forgiven a Star Wars reference, it reminded me more of the broken Darth Vader vs ageing Obi Wan than the much more energetic fighting that was one of the (admittedly few) positives of the prequels. I’m naturally assuming that the BBC budget for a 45 minute TV episode would be comparable to that for a Star Wars movie 🙂

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@whisht Now, if her folk playing extended to more angry artists then maybe it will come.

and on that note….

Exactly the sort of protest song I was thinking of when I described Ms Hopkins performance- Billy Bragg also gives off a sort of “killer rabbit” vibe 🙂

@pedant Good point re Hopkins – the edit may not be doing her any favours.

Hard to know, but oddly I was thinking the exact opposite. In the scene where she’s battling the urge to kill her father – which I though worked quite well – there are lots of quick cuts, so it was more a product of editing than of her raw performance.

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A much-improved episode – at least for my tastes – after a slow episode last week. Several plot threads developing and altogether a lot tighter episode that has got me looking forward to seeing how things are resolved.

As suspected, the Governors (whoever they are) seem to know exactly what’s going on. I’m suspicious of another alien influence there, rather than an earthly (UNIT/Torchwood) connection though.

I wasn’t enthused by the speed of the April/Ram relationship developing, but given what they’ve been through together, I didn’t find a sexual relationship much more of a stretch. I’m always a little in two minds with teenaged sex being shown- sure it happens and ignoring it isn’t altogether realistic, but I do tend to think that it being portrayed in the popular media tends to add a little pressure for teenaged relationships to head that way, when they may not be ready for that. A little safe sex message slipped in though. From the point of view of the story, it was fairly predictable development that the girl sharing a heart gets involved in an affair of the heart.

There were some hints of the Shadow Kin getting fleshed out a little as characters. There’s going to be a limit how far that can go if Corakinus kills every other Shadow Kin who’s on screen for more than 30 seconds though. Didn’t quite know what to make of the alien sex either :). I hadn’t been that enthused about seeing the Shadow Kin return to the series, since both the CGI and characterisation had been a bit flat first time around. At least there’s some development in the characterisation and their design is growing on me a little.

And some interesting push-back again the prince carrying around his “genocide in a box” and a very Who message in that it isn’t a hero’s place to be committing genocide, even for his own people.

@pedant My slight concern (and would love to be proved wrong) is that I’m not sure Sophie Hopkins quite has the chops for a part needing such emotional range. She’s not bad, but she ain’t Sarah Michelle Gellar and I think her role really needs her to step up.

I was actually more on board with Sophie Hopkin’s performance for the most part, apart from the ending of the episode, when, for me, she really lacked clear menace/purpose in jumping through the crack. She’s meant to be channeling the Shadow Kin king’s sense of purpose at that point, not a slightly peeved folk-musician.

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@juniperfish Yes, I think the flash-vision of Miss Quill with quills and Charlie with other protuberant face-markings in “For Tonight We Might Die” was of their actual forms, because (as others have said on the “For Tonight We Might Die” thread) April’s earlier imaginings of them were of humanoids in school uniform, so that felt like a reveal for us, the audience.

I interpreted that to also be part of April’s imagination, in that case running wild, rather than a flash of reality. I have a feeling that the true reveal is being held back for later.

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I’m afraid I found this episode a bit of a grind. The story seemed very slow – lacking in both pace and suspense for me. Which meant it lived and died on the character development. The episode centred on Tanya, and I didn’t feel the payoff there was very great. The sequence with Miss Quill, though much shorter, was much more revealing and satisfying. The others didn’t have very much to do, and unfortunately that was in some ways for the best, as the actors for the other characters haven’t hit their stride. I’m feeling impressed by Vivian Oparah as Tanya though- if her performance hadn’t worked in this episode, it could have been a very turgid affair.

The April/Ram kiss was out of the blue, and caused me a groan when it was coming- not that I had much warning for that. I didn’t feel that the series was that much in need of a second unconvincing romantic connection. Particularly with Ram seeing (the simulation of) his dead girlfriend in this episode, it seems very rushed.

I understand that some thought this was a positive direction for the series, but I found it frustrating enough that it has me struggling a little for motivation to watch the remainder of the series.

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@puroandson Mmm, using the comment “Breaks the [The] Bechtel Test” – don’t think it breaks the 4th Wall, necessarily?

Used as it was, it could be construed as a comment on the conversation from Tanya- at a minimum it’s a “meta” comment, i.e. about the conversation, rather than part of it really. In a work of fiction, it then felt to me, at least in part, like a comment from the writer to the audience, hence my comment.

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@purosolo It’s Bechtel isn’t it? I could be wrong. though.

Bechdel Test actually. It’s only applied to a work of fiction though, so a character saying that is 4th wall breaking. I suspect it’s partially a dig from the writer on formulaic YA fiction, which may sometimes struggle to pass the test, something that won’t be a problem for Class 🙂

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@puroandson well the theme song was something I didn’t enjoy -I’m not sure it was awful.

The song itself perhaps isn’t too bad- it’s more I felt its tone was way off that of the program, so not suitable for the opening. I’ll stick with my guns on the visuals though- not at all sure what they were trying for- 80’s Bond film? Had it been a show I’d come across at random, I’d have switched it off before the opening sequence finished. These days I’d be suggesting minimising opening sequences anyway- get the show name up and whatever credits are essential and then get rid of it without breaking the atmosphere.

@puroandson Sparse comments from other members at mo.

I suspect this has gone under the radar for many, which is a pity, as it’s worth a look- may hit consciousness when the main series awakens from its slumber for the Xmas ep.

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This second episode was in many ways based on a typical horror trope, but with a rather “Who-ish” conclusion. I’d prefer the gore to be dialled back a bit- it hasn’t been dwelt on, but it’s always something I think horror/suspense should use sparingly, and not as a major way to achieve impact.

I’ve never been a fan of the “people forget” idea used in Who – it largely seems to be used as a plot convenience. People have gone missing at best, and hostile aliens have appeared before a large group of students. Just because the teachers didn’t see it, doesn’t mean that it would just be forgotten/misinterpreted by most. It’s made light of in the episode, so I think Ness is acknowledging that also.

Regardless, the events of the first episode had a real impact on the core characters, especially Ram. And that’s used to develop the characters and their relationships further. So that opportunity isn’t lost.

I’m interested enough in seeing how the series develops to be sticking with it.

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Overall, I though this was a promising opening, with some story arcs being set up and natural character development. The Doctor’s intervention wasn’t crucial to the story, and that’s a good thing, as if the series is to stand up, it can’t depend on the Doctor breezing in to save the day.

Sure, there were some elements that you’d expect from a school setting, but not to the point of cliché, apart perhaps from the use of the prom setting. @craig suggested having this up-front might be to deliberately subvert normal tropes, which was an interesting suggestion. It also occurred to me that the prom wouldn’t be something you’d be able to build up to, as it just won’t seem a big significant event to the major characters any more, after what they’re going through.

@puroandson No-one was talked down to -so I’d imagine a 16 year old would find it terrific.

Agreed. I thought the characters were quite well painted and believable, and that’s also key for making the series accessible to older viewers (which is often the case with good YA fiction anyway). If the characters fail to ring true to adults, then they’re double likely to fail to be relatable for teens.

@puroandson I didn’t enjoy the opening theme song.

I can’t understand that. For me the opening sequence – visuals and theme song – were just straight up awful and the tone was way off-theme and will be a mandatory skip for me in future. Fortunately that was by far the low point of the episode.

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@puroandson As for juvenile, I think people said that about Buffy (my all time favourite show) so I expect that with the ‘mature’ tag that’s added to it, it will be aimed at my generation as well as teens over 15.

The main series has done a good job of being accessible to the younger generation as well as longer-term fans, so it’s certainly something they can do.

In a way, a 15+ age range causes me a little more concern in terms of juvenile focus than a PG rating. With a PG rating the writing needs to avoid delving deeply into some older teen issues, so it can be more for everyone, but if there’s an explicit 15+ age range, then there’s more license to pursue those issues, which could tend to skew the show more towards a 15-18 target audience. The series writer (Patrick Ness) is apparently known primarily known for his YA writing also. Of course, quality YA writing can be perfectly accessible to an older audience as well. So I’m certainly not going into it with a preconception that it’s not intended for me.

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@janetteb Yes- it seems a long time now since there was anything new to discuss – with good reason I guess, since it was last year. I had to look back through old posts to remind myself exactly where things were at.

Class is looking quite promising – given its premise, I’m hoping it’s not too juvenile in focus. But the trailer looks darker than I’d expected, so that’s a good sign.

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@craig
Do you know when Class will be shown in Australia? I’m trying to work out how to handle it on this site.

According to Wikipedia:
“In September 2016, the series was picked up in Australia by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, where the first two episodes will be fast-tracked from Britain for ABC iView on 22 October 2016, and will be broadcast later on ABC2 on 24 October 2016.”

So I don’t think it’s necessary to worry about spoilers for Australian fans, as it seems we’ll get them on the same date.

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The first “big” episode in the new incarnation of Dr Who and I found it impossible not to like it, despite its issues. The first return of the daleks was a damp squib – just the one – so to ramp that up to half a million brought a broad smile to my face.

Rose becomes a goddess quite literally- invulnerable, total knowledge, power over life, death and all matter. She dismisses the “false god” of the emperor dalek with a thought and equally easily brings Captain Jack back to life- in fact overdoing it so much that’s he’s left practically immortal.

To me the biggest issue I had though wasn’t the deus (dea?) ex machine resolution, it was the Doctor being unprepared to destroy the daleks at the cost of Earth. You could argue that showed how he had changed, but as later events showed he was still in later regenerations prepared to repeat his actions at the end of the Time War, as the lesser of two evils. Once the daleks cluster bomb Earth, leaving little to save anyway, the equation I would have thought was much more in favour of action. I could have accepted him being unprepared to do it, but Christopher Eccleston’s gormless grin (not blaming him necessarily- more how he was directed) following that was too much, given the level of soul-searching this decision should have entailed, not to mention his meek surrender while still holding a major bargaining chip. Not that it would have mattered in the end had he used the delta wave- Bad Wolf Rose could just have resurrected everyone and restored the Earth. But it was symptomatic of what I thought was an inconsistent characterisation of the Doctor throughout this series.

Overall series one was reasonably enjoyable, but in the end, for me at least, I think its major contribution was to secure the future of the program into series 2 and beyond.

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Not a big favourite of this episode, but it managed a few moments. I wasn’t looking forward to a follow up to the earlier Slitheen storyline- didn’t really think there was much reason for one. And in the end this is really primarily a set-up for Torchwood.

The positives:

The scenes alone between the Doctor and the Slitheen are quite strong, although I’ve never really bought into the Doctor as being someone who habitually runs off to leave others to clean up the the mess (though you could find some instances). I’ve tended to think of him mostly trying to have as light a touch as possible in things he perhaps shouldn’t always be interfering in.

Micky is drawn as a real person, and has something to do in this episode, behaving in a believable way in reaction to Rose basically casting him aside as she goes off without him.

The negatives:

The Slitheen monster model still irks me.

I disliked the resolution with the eye of the Tardis. It’s not something I find very satisfying whenever it’s pulled out of the closet, in part I’ve got to admit because it harks back to the disappointment of the Dr Who movie. Plus it is treated as having God-like powers, making it the literal deus ex machina.

With Captain Jack on-board, Rose isn’t given much to do in the story except tag along, and as a love interest, much like in the preceding 2-parter, where she was entrusted with running off, getting in trouble, screaming, getting rescued, then acting primarily as love interest.

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Here’s the quote:

Clara: Doctor, do you want to be alone with that thing?
The Doctor: It’s a command computer. You operate it by titivating the fronds.
Clara: Are you enjoying that?!
(Wet squelching)
The Doctor: I snogged a Zygon once. Old habits…
(Polyp gurgles)
The Doctor: Still got the old magic.

I took this as fairly tongue in cheek (his own, not the Zygon’s !). I think it’s his mastery of the technology that he’s most proud of, not an ability to titillate the Zygon computer via his titivations. The mention of snogging a Zygon, whilst true, was essentially still a joke in this context, or at least that’s how I preferred to think of it 🙂

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