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I felt this episode confirmed what I had been feeling about all of series 8 so far: it seems as if this series is more about Clara than about the Doctor. This is Clara’s journey. To where? As others have noted, probably to somewhere beyond the Doctor. Whether that is with Danny, or somewhere more tragic (and there are precedents in AG Who) isn’t clear yet.

But Clara really seems to be even more central that the Doctor in this series. I know that it was “all about” Amy  and I know that Clara  was “the impossible girl”, but Clara is really occupying centre-stage this time around. In a funny sort of way, in some of the episodes Capaldi’s Doctor is off to one side (in a way that Matt Smith’s Doctor never was), or, in the case of this episode, consciously absents himself. Not sure what to make of it yet.

The other thing is that he seems strangely ignorant of things. Age for example. It is not just in this episode that he makes a bizarre comment about age: “How old are you…(to Courtney)…35?” Someone upstream made a brilliant point that it is as if the Doctor, on a second set of regenerations, beyond what is intended (natural?), is, like Rassilon and the Master, “damaged” somehow.

So, not much to say about the actual episode. Like many others, I need a second viewing. But what does seem to be clear is that many of us on the board are strangely…puzzled…by how this series is unfolding.

 

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Many thanks @bluesqueakpip. I’ll give it a go.

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Has anybody else been having problems getting the embedded youtube clips to respond when they are using portable devices? Up until a few days ago I could always access the clips when reading the site on my iPad (or Mrs Blenkinsop’s nifty new iPad mini) but since then there is no response.

I thought someone more tech-savy than me (which includes pretty much the entire planet) might know if apple or youtube have recently changed their settings.

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@pedant

Edge of Darkness – Agree 100%. Should be required viewing.

One of the finest thrillers ever made. It makes you realise just how dark and paranoid (or revolutionary–or both?) British TV drama was in the 1980s.

The 1980s, with phrases like “the personal and the political” If there was a TV show that captured the indivisibility of the personal and the political, this had to be it.

Which is not to say that I am in any way nostalgic for the 1980s. I found it a rather grim and depressing decade.

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Having re-watched A Matter of Life and Death this has now become Blenkinsop’s idee fixe in relation to what is happening. @phileasf – excellent call on The Red Shoes, btw, as the relationship between Clara, Danny and the Doctor does seem to replicate the relationship between Moira Shearer’s Vicky, Marius Goring’s Julian and Anton Walbrook’s Lermontov. Although I hope that it does not follow through on that, given the rather unfortunate fate of Vicky in The Red Shoes.

No, I go back to A Matter of Life and Death (and, @phileasf, I actually think the idea of heaven in the film isn’t ambiguous–it only exists in David Niven’s character’s mind. It only appears to be ambiguous on first viewing because of the film-making genius of Powell and Pressburger).

If there is one idea that defines Moffat’s approach to the relationships between the Doctor and his companions under his tenure, it has to be the redemptive power of love. In fact, love is so powerful it can change physical reality. Rory and the Doctor can disappear but be remembered back into existence by the power of love. I fully expect that the power of love will play out in this season as well. There is a fabulous moment in A Matter of Life and Death, where the characters in “heaven” go down to earth to find evidence to save David Niven’s Peter in his trial. And they find it in a tear drop on Kim Hunter’s June, who is desperately in love with David Niven’s character, and they capture the tear drop on an English rose, and it is the evidence they present to the “heavenly” court to save his life.

Now, I am not saying that Moffat will replicate this, but it is precisely the type of thing Moffat could emulate.

In other words, I think that we should not over-emphasis the possible darkness of the Doctor, or Danny, or Clara. Rather, this is all leading to to a tear-jerking, but ultimately happy resolution in the finale, resolved by the redemptive power of love.

Of course, I could always be shot down by devastating logic (hello, out there, @bluesqueakpip…)

Now it is time for more coffee to ruminate on “the promised land”.

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@scaryb

(tho I think there will be a more “real world” explanation).

But, if you remember, there is a more “real world” explanation in “A Matter of Life and Death” as well. The film is not actually set in “heaven” as all those sequences take place in the mind and imagination of David Niven’s character, who is suffering a neurological disorder. The film doesn’t actually accept the existence of heaven, just as Doctor Who doesn’t either. But what they both believe in is the power of love. I just re-watched the Powell and Pressburger film again (one of the greatest films of all British cinema) and am more than ever convinced that Moffat may be drawing on it.

What makes me think this is just how deep Danny’s and Clara’s feelings for each other were established in this episode. In the Matt Smith years there was also the theme of the love between Amy and Rory and Rory died over and over, but was brought back to life. Moffat isn’t going to do that again. But the whole notion of deep love, and the willingness of both partners to sacrifice themselves so that the other might live (as in “A Matter of Life and Death”) is very much like the sort of thing Moffat does.

In fact, since there is a week before the next episode, may this is the time to see if there is anything left in the Blenkinsop cellar and do a Powell and Pressburger retrospective.

 

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Finally caught up with it in the wilds of Ontario, courtesy of iPlayer.

Well, I agree entirely with @arbutus, this was a 10/10 for me. I loved every minute of it, and every line of dialogue. Indeed, I am sort of surprised by some of the criticism (too much ‘soap’). This was classic Who, and not just in the way it returned to Coal Hill and set up a set of companions including two school teachers and a student. It was also classic Who in that the reason the show captured the imaginations 50 years ago was that it was as much about the relationship between Ian, Barbara, Susan and the Doctor, as it was about flying through space and time, and this episode brilliantly captured why we should care about these new companions, and why we should care about this new Doctor. For me, this was the episode where I really believed in Capaldi as the Doctor. Perhaps even more so than “Listen”, which was also fabulous.

So many people have said so much already about the episode, that I do not want to repeat–although it was “otters”!

@cathannabel I loved your pick up on the Blorgons. I think that it just the type of meta joke Moffat would make.

@badwulf Intrigued by your idea about Mr Pink from “Reservoir Dogs”. There is clearly more to Danny than we (or even he) are aware. When I think about it, the Doctor is usually correct in his first impressions, so his refusal to see Danny as a Math teacher isn’t just irritation, I think.

On the question of Danny as a Sergeant, correct me if I am wrong, but is it not the Doctor only who refers to Danny as a Sergeant (I assumed in a generically dismissive way)? Does Danny identify himself as a former Sergeant, or only as formerly being in the military?

But the one thing that I couldn’t help thinking about in this story, was the whole “Promised Land” thing. Perhaps it was the setting of the long, white corridor, where he was welcomed to “heaven”, but it reminded me very much of Powell and Pressburger’s fabulous fantasy film from 1946, “A Matter of Life and Death”. I am now wondering if Moffat is using that illusion to set up something for the finale. The movie was about a second world war airman (played by David Niven) who is shot down, but due to a bureaucratic error in heaven, survives. By the time the error is discovered, he has fallen in love, and a trial is held in heaven to determine if he should die or be given a second chance.

Here is a clip, where the new arrivals are given their heavenly wings (note the first screen appearance of Richard Attenborough as the Sergeant and the always gorgeous Kathleen Byron):

 

 

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@bluesqueakpip

Now that should really have been Crazy Captions #89

“The Whore Doctor” perhaps?

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Can Susan regenerate? Possibly.

Should Susan regenerate? Probably not.

What I mean by this is that while it is firmly established to generations of viewers of the show that the Doctor and the Master can regenerate, I am not sure that Susan is a character who is established firmly enough in the mind of the casual (or brand new) viewer to be able to be accepted as Susan if played by a different actress.

Moffat is pretty clever at balancing the desires of the committed fans with the neccessities of telling a story to a viewer with little knowledge of the history of Who. So, while it is entirely possible for him to refer to, or even bring back, Susan, I am less convinced that a different actress could carry it off. When he tried it with Mels, the response was lukewarm, to say the least.

So, for these reasons, I think we are left with two possibilities: either, he brings back Carol Ann Ford one last time for a touching farewell that links the characters (yah!) or he simply drops Susan as a character in the ongoing story of the Doctor.

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@bluesqueakpip

I seem to recall running with the idea that Clara was the daughter of the Doctor and River, and therefore Susan’s mother, way back when Clara first appeared. I also recall being quite excited by the idea at the time, until it was shot down with devastating logic by those far more clever than I.

Although, for the life of me, I cannot remember what the counter-argument was.

But there is still something emotionally appealing about the idea.

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@thommck

Yes, of course. There must have been a memory worm with me in the cellar.

Mind you, when the Doctor mentions the woman in the shop and says: “we still don’t know who that was”, it was a perfect opportunity for Clara to look at him and say: “well, actually…” but she didn’t.

Hmm. Now I am questioning my previous reflection. Obviously time for still more coffee.

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Still catching up, and I have undoubtedly missed this, but has there been any discussion of whether Susan was the woman in the shop who gave Clara the phone number? (which would be a nice way of bringing Carol Ann Ford back)

Also, I am not conversant with the Who novels (and therefore I am ignoring them in terms of canon) but since it has now been established that not all Gallifreyans are Time Lords, then am I correct in concluding that Susan was not necessarily a Time Lord? After all, just because she was related to the Doctor does not have to mean she was a Time Lord, yes?

Of course, the point of that reflection escapes me at the moment. Time for more coffee.

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@phileasf

acausal loops

Fabulous post. It is posts like that this make this site the brilliant place it is.

Not much in the way of coherent thoughts from me yet–having only recently been released from the cellar, the light is still a bit overwhelming. But some reflections (albeit, not quite as brilliant as @phileasf) soon. Hopefully.

Oh well, maybe just one now. Has anyone noted that the whole acausal loop in this episode is reminiscent of Moffat’s joke in his Comic Relief Doctor Who parody “The Curse of Fatal Death”?

“I went back in time and bribed the architect to build the castle….” etc, etc.

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Hurrah! Mrs Blenkinsop has finally agreed to let me out of the cellar. Fortunately, the cellar was well stocked.

And thanks to @purofilion, @janetteb, @arbutus, @craig, @phaseshift for the thoughts.

Crikey, so much to catch up on. It might take a while.

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@juniperfish and @craig

I feel the need to respond to you collectively, even though the films are different.

@juniperfish

Sad to hear the repsonse to “Dawn”, as I had (maybe still have) high hopes for it, but your comment about the nuclear family made me think you were probably accurate, as it is all about context. And it is so often hard to escape from the context of the 21st century American sentimental valorization of the nuclear family. Which leads me to

@craig

Of course, Mad Max 2 was awesome and unforgettable. Partly because of its context. There had not been another movie quite like it at the time (except perhaps John Carpenter’s Assault on Precinct 13). But what was different, and unique, about MM2 was the setting. Australia. The colours are unique. This trailer lacks that, and while it looks good, it looks, well, too slick maybe. There was a visceral violence (and humour) to MM2 that took your breath away. Not sure I see that in the trailer.

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@phaseshift

Hurrah!

<Blenkinsop considers a late career move into PR. Thinks to self: “Is it possible to convince everyone to buy the DVD of the Opening Ceremony of the Commonwealth Games, or is that even beyond the capacity of Blenkinsop?”>

Less than five pounds for THE Colin? A mere bagatelle !

And remember, I did offer the opportunity of a double dose of Colin…

But no matter. In only a few days the Rani will fail to be intimidated by Colin’s…ahem…costume.

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@fatmaninabox

Have you had your first class in the Glasshouse yet?

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Just re-watched both episodes with Mrs Blenkinsop, and it struck me that Will Chandler was something of a lost soul, and I would not be surprised if he came to a sticky end. Then it stuck me that it would seem strangely appropriate if the Doctor took him back to 1643 and plopped him right into A Field in England. Somehow, that seems to have a certain narrative logic (if unfortunate) as an end for Will.

And, of course, A Field in England was directed by Ben Wheatley, who is directing “Deep Breath” on August 23. So it all ties back to Doctor Who!

@Wolfeed. Agreed. Would love to see the Malus again in a future story. And SM has said that he has probably finished with the Weeping Angels and is looking for a new monster. Seems tailor-made.

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@phaseshift

was it just me who thought that Polly James Jane was more preferable as a companion?

I was actually reminded a lot of the interaction between Matt Smith’s Doctor and Meera Sayal’s Nasreen in the Silurian two-parter. Yes, Polly James was excellent in this, and it does raise a point about who is, and who is not, allowed to be a female companion on the show. Both Polly James and Meera Sayal displayed great chemistry with the Doctor, and both could have been great companions. But unfortunately, the bias against middle-aged women and the bias in favour of young, pretty, female companions who need rescuing, is still as in evidence today as it was in JNT’s day. And this is ironic, since the very first female companion Barbara (I’m not counting the Doctor’s grand-daughter) was (to the target audience of 11 year olds) the personification of a strong, mature, woman. There were all sorts of ways in which Verity Lambert was pushing the envelope.

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Well, another cracker of a story!

What began last week with an air of “Sapphire and Steel”, progressed through a nod to “The Wicker Man”, and ended with more than a hint of “Quatermass and the Pit”.

Of course, that is one of the pleasures of these stories. They are not mere rip-offs of earlier shows or authors, but are consciously drawing on traditions of English story-telling in a celebratory way. That was as true of “Black Orchid” as it was of “The Awakening”. That is one of the reasons that made this pairing of stories such a good combination.

I must say I thought the manifestation of the Malice that was growing at the top of the wall in the Tardis was particularly creepy! And, of course, running in tunnels. Where would Doctor Who be without it?

However, something that was increasingly true of the JNT years, was the unfortunate way that the Tardis was demystified to such an extent that half the village could be inside it at the end, and no-one even pauses to comment on where they are.

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@arbutus

Ha! PC? Blenkinsop? As I said to (the future) Mrs Blenkinsop: “Expect the unexpected!”

@scaryb

You did see what I was doing up there, didn’t you?

PS. Love the new Sil avatar!

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@phaseshift and @everyone

Who would have thought Colin would have aroused this level of interest!

Therefore, should we, perhaps, be guided by this unprecedented level of interest in Colin?

In other words, why not a double dose of Colin!

We are all up to watching and commenting on two stories simultaneously.

After a frenzy of double dipping Colin, we will be psychologically primed and ready for 23 August!

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Mind you, the country of my birth has fared no better. The Australian outfits for the 2010 Commonwealth Games. Oh dear!

This is not the only reason I emigrated, of course…

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As the Commonwealth Games kick off in Glasgow, it made me wonder if the Scottish uniforms this year (#28847) were an aberration. In the basis of this photo of the 1998 uniforms, not so much an aberration after all. Yikes!

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@purofilion

Welcome to Sherlock. I confess to loving that show. It is Moffat and Gatiss being really clever and having lots of fun with Conan Doyle.

But a word of caution. As it is a mystery series, the show abounds with clues that pay off in later episodes. For this reason, you have to be very strict about avoiding spoilers. Not just the spoilers on the web, but I would even advise not telling anyone you know or work with that you are watching it, as they will inevitably (even if inadvertently) spill the beans.

Enjoy.

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@whisht

@blenkinsopthebrave ‘s impassioned plea kinda tugged at my heart.

Aw, shucks…

<Blenkinsop snuffles, reaches for handkerchief, and noisily blows nose>

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@fatmaninabox – Many thanks!

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@scaryb demonstrates her aggressive reporting skills to @craig

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@craig

I second @juniperfish and @scaryb wholeheartedly. Crikey, in a perfect world, they should be inviting you to the screening.

Of course, we are a polite forum, that believes in tolerance, diversity, civility and protection against spoilers, but, well, if they do not respond, then, in the words of Arnold Rimmer:

Call it extreme if you like, but I propose we hit it hard and hit it fast with a major – and I mean major – leaflet campaign, and while it’s reeling from that we’d follow up with a whist drive, a car boot sale, some street theatre and possibly even some benefit concerts.

<Thinks to self: “Could there be drawbacks to being a polite forum?”>

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This story is strangely unnerving for Doctor Who. It has a definite Sapphire and Steel air about it. And with Tegan dressed up at the end, perhaps a bit of The Wicker Man as well. What is particularly interesting is the way it presents the past as malevolent.

But, dear me, does Tegan have to be quite so whiny? All the time?

But I will leave it to @phaseshift to do his erudite and comprehensive assessment, as he does with all these retrospectives.

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@phaseshift

OK, I am going to do my best to convince everyone that we really should watch “The Mark of the Rani” for the 6th.

Why?

1. It is an historical (I love historicals). But more importantly, it is not just the only historical that Colin Baker did, it was also filmed on location at the Ironbridge Gorge Museum (the story is about the Industrial Revolution).

2. It has not simply one Time Lord, it has 3 Time Lords!

3. It has a brilliant new Tardis (the Tardia of the Rani).

4. It has the Rani, or more to the point, it has Kate O’Mara, being deliciously evil. Hmm…evil?…or…just deliciously amoral? Let’s just settle on…delicious.

5. It has marks of death on its victims which are, let’s face it, big love bites (watch it and you will see what I mean).

6. It has, actually, a really good performance by Colin Baker, who manages to overcome his costume and give the Doctor real gravitas and sympathy.

7. It has, just like the best historicals of the Verity Lambert years, great reflections on the history of the industrial revolution, the consumption of lamb chops, and the the life of trees (can’t really explain the last two because of spoilers, but take my word).

8. It is (unlike Vengengence on Varos) unique and original. We have been to Vengence on Varos before, actually quite recently with RTD and evil game shows. But this is sort of special when we come to Colin Baker’s tenure.

9. If is only 2 (45 minute) episodes, which helps a lot in terms of timing before August.

Did I mention Kate O’Mara?

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@wolfweed, @phaseshift

Out of the Unknown. At last! This was one of the best, certainly one of the most thoughtful, and challenging, anthology science fiction shows ever put on TV. And in October the remaining episodes released! And cleaned and spruced up! Wow.

Out of the Unknown (like Who) suffered terribly from the policy of wiping tapes during those years, and so much of it was lost. Perhaps the story that affected me the most when I first saw it (probably in 1970 on Australian TV) was from series 3, and titled “Target Generation”. The experience of watching that (I was in my final year of high school, and participating in anti-Vietnam War demonstrations) was profound and has never left me. The story of a repressive future society where books were banned and religious dogma was used to repress the population, made a huge impact on me. Unfortunately, it was one of the tapes that was wiped. But here is a synopsis of that lost episode:

http://www.625.org.uk/ootu/bbcents/bbces311.htm

The ending (where the protagonist/rebel quite literally walks into the beam of glowing light and an uncertain future) is something I have always carried with me.  I would rank it as one of the most moving and inspiring TV experiences of my life.

It is fabulous that the remaining episodes are being finally released with a proper restoration job done on them.

 

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@craig.

I just watched Kermode’s review of Sex and the City 2 on your recommendation…This man is now officially my hero!!

For the whole 10 minutes of his rant (that was not a rant) you wanted to roar in agreement, but you knew you couldn’t utter a sound because he was talking so fast that you might miss another brilliant comment.

Wonderful. I am now on a quest to read and hear the collected wisdom of Kermode (Mark, not Frank, that is).

Which is not to put down Frank Kermode, but, let’s face it, there are not as many laugh-out-loud bits in The Genesis of Secrecy and the Interpretation of Narrative.

 

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@scaryb

Long may we continue to be perverse!

I couldn’t agree more.

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Oh dear, this may be the collapse of civilisation as we know it:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/video/video-in-australia-the-end-of-shiraz-as-we-know-it/article1958371

There is only one answer. To drink it while it is still available, and accordingly, I am about to go down to the Blenkinsop cellar.

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@craig

Ah, yes indeed, life is full of ironies! I am certainly no Luddite, but there is a whole generation that has grown up knowing only a world that allows them to say whatever they like while hiding behind a wall of electronic anonymity. Nowdays, they (and not only that generation, of course) never have to be confronted by the expression of pain on the face of the person they have insulted. I am not sure that civility, wimsey, word-play, are really organic to the Internet. It is no surprise that so many people who are attracted to this site tell us that this site is very rare in its commitment to civility and good-natured humor.

But even as I type these words, I suspect that there are many of my fellow Enthusiasts who will disagree with my assessment, so perhaps I better stop before I talk myself into a hole!

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@phaseshift

Thanks for the warning. I reaffirm the comments I made a couple of hours ago at #29003 in the On The Sofa thread.

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@wafflebro

Greetings from Canada. Well, the world tour misses Canada entirely. As for the first episode of Series 8, in my town the only option is an expensive cable subscription to be able to watch it on one of the cable channels. It sounds like neither of our countries are doing their best by Doctor Who.

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@wolfweed

Loved that 1986 video. Especially the comment from one of the fans about what
attracts the American fans: “It’s good versus evil without getting terribly violent, like it is over here.” Exactly. And something AG Who is sometimes in danger of forgetting.

Also loved the final comment by the guy in charge of the roadshow about the fans: “They are probably the most gentle souls I have ever met in any work I’ve done in my life.” Of course, that was in the days before the Internet, which allows the less gentle souls who frequent Guardian talk-backs to spoil the experience (in every sense of the word “spoil”).

Yep, as far as I am concerned, the jury is still out on whether the Internet has improved our quality of life.

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@wolfweed

What?! An entire episode? (even if it is a rough-cut episode)

This is why you should never sub-contract.

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@phaseshift

Actually, that list of American actors was quite inspired!

But…imagine it being written by American writers and produced by American TV. It doesn’t bear thinking about!

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Well, I really enjoyed that. In a way, of course, the cast were right. It wasn’t the type of sci-fi show they had signed up for. But the idea of taking the Doctor out of his comfort zone (if all of space and time can be described as a comfort zone) and placed in a very different genre-based setting was an intriguing one. And it really was well executed. If it wasn’t for the revelation of the inside of the Tardis at the end, it could stand it’s own against many TV adaptations of Sherlock Holmes, or a dozen other period murder mysteries. (For example, if anyone has ever seen a 1939 British murder mystery film, “The Case of the Frightened Lady” with Marius Goring, you will know what I mean.)

And I agree with @phaseshift that modern Who could (on occasion) take the Doctor out of his comfort zone of aliens and (to be honest) too many explosions, and put him in a very different setting, and, if done right, not only would it not harm the brand, but it might enhance and deepen the show. I think “Black Orchid” demonstrated that.

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@miapatrick

A Distinction AND a well-dressed boyfriend. Fabulous…and impressive!

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@scaryb

Damn!

Here is a site that still seems to have it.

http://www.darkhorizons.com/news/32887/votd-japanese-style-doctor-who-parody

It really is quite entertaining (if you can see it, that is!)

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Doctor Who meets Japanese tokusatsu

Weird and wonderful!

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@TheCrackIntheWall

I just realised that @midnyt already answered your question. Sorry, @midnyt, I missed you reply as well!

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@TheCrackInTheWall

Actually, I don’t think the Doctor defeats the Vashta Nerada, as such, but rather he buys some time so he can release the trapped people. How does he buy the time? He tells the Vashta Nerada to read about him in the books in the Library, and presumably they are impressed enough to give him the time. But once the trapped people are released, the Vashta Nerada continue to roam the Library.

This is my memory of the episode, so someone please correct me if I am wrong.

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@craig, @jimthefish

Actually, I thought the outfit of the tall Australian with the scarf had a sort of “Tegan flight attendent” air to it.

Actually, is there a bit of Jamie in the Scottish outfits? After all, his time with the second Doctor was in black and white. Who knows what it may have been in colour?

One wonders if we could match a companion to each team. Of course, that might mean that one country has sent their atheletes as Adric. Or Leela?

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@craig

You are a wise and benevolent Emperor.

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@craig

Yes, I think you are right. The nuclear option is a bit drastic. I think that, personally, I am becoming more spoiler-averse than I thought I was. I shall more vigilant.

At the risk of sounding like some nostalgic ancient thing, there was something really great back in the pre-internet days of BG Who, when you turned on the TV to watch the show each week and every episode was a complete surprise.

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