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    Frobisher @replies

    Wow. So many comments.

    I have never seen Jodie Whittaker in anything before, so I have no idea about what she will bring to the role (I am sure it will be lots, though). I am super excited to see D13 in action. Bring it on!

    Frobisher @replies


    Is that… is that… is that a duck?


    Frobisher @replies

    @jimthefish @missrori

    I think Cyber-Bill has been foreshadowed by the temporary zombiefication of Bill in Oxygen, and Heather taking on a form similar to a Cyberman head during The Pilot. In fact, could Heather actually know what the future holds for Bill, and was trying to warn her/save her in The Pilot? She let Bill go, allowing her to follow her own path. Now fate re-unites them?

    Frobisher @replies


    I think the Cyberman shown interacting with the Doctor in several publicity photos may well be Cyber-Bill. With her body converted, I expect her soul to be liberated by Heather, and they travel the universe together forever.

    That fits the themes of the series, of “enemies” not being evil, and of release and freedom.

    Frobisher @replies


    Who is it you are hoping is going to play the next Doctor from the current cast? Michelle Gomez? Pearl Mackie? Someone else?

    Frobisher @replies

    And one can fall into depression. Which may fit with the It’s a Wonderful Life theory.

    Frobisher @replies

    @thane15 @missrori

    Ah ha! Yes! I too have been pondering that. Like “Gallifrey Falls… No More” I am expecting some sort of Moff twist on The Doctor Falls. What could that be?

    One can fall in love (but River is gone).

    One can fall for a trick or a lie (hello Missy).

    One can fall to the dark side (Bill… <wheeze> I am your father…<wheeze>).

    What could it mean, other than the obvious?

    It does bring to mind the demise of D4 though, in which The Master played a part…

    Frobisher @replies

    Well, my latest thoughts are that the Christmas special will be based on a hybrid. No, not that old chestnut, thankfully. Instead, I propose a variation of my thoughts in post Bearing in mind the Christmas timing, the rumoured guest stars, Capaldi’s Oscar winning history, and The Moff’s stated story preferences, I think a hybrid of A Christmas Carol and It’s a Wonderful Life is on the cards (Tarot cards? No, that was last series…). My guess:

    The Doctor fails in some way in The Doctor Falls, and ends up being mortally wounded/bound for death. Missy is tied up with this, and the Doctor will likely feel some guilt and/or regret related to her expected demise. He, probably harshly, adjudges himself wanting in his last actions, and once more questions if he is a “good man”. He chooses, as the Simm Master did in series 4, NOT to regenerate, and will thus truly die.

    The Christmas special is D12 being shown he is actually a good man and should regenerate by the ghosts of regeneration past (D1), present (Clara), and future (D13? A D13-less universe?). Ultimately, he is convinced, given a new lease of life, and regenerates at peace with himself. Happy ending all round, glass of sherry for Granny.

    Frobisher @replies


    But Who would play the cabbage?

    Collard Baker?

    Sylvester Savoy

    or perhaps Peter Kale-paldi?

    Frobisher @replies

    Well, I won’t harp on too much, but I will say I am immeasurably pleased to see the Monk story end, and I look forward to better things ahead.

    Please, please, please.

    Frobisher @replies

    Aaaaand it’s gone. What did it say?

    Frobisher @replies

    What are the chances that the Monks are actually Osirians, do we think?

    Frobisher @replies

    <p style=”text-align: left;”>Can anyone recommend a good Doctor Who podcast that I can download and listen to here in the UK? Ideally it would discuss current stories as they happen, but some classic Who discussion would also be very welcome. Ta muchly in advance! :)</p>

    Frobisher @replies


    There must be many multiples of simulations, I agree. Although, to be honest, I think we will now leave the sims behind and see the fight with the Monks in the “real” world.


    Other theories I am considering as to why this regeneration will be unlike any other:

    – The Doctor splits into two seperate people, the Doctor and the Valeyard.

    This would riff on the idea on 12 being preoccupied with if he was a good man or not – he could feel the Valeyard within him.

    Or this one, of which I particularly fond:

    – The 12th Doctor somehow ends up inserted into the events of The Tenth Planet (hence the Mondasian Cybermen), and ends up dying instead of the 1st Doctor, possibly in a deliberate attempt to change his own timeline for the better, or to try to save his life in some way. This causes a paradox, as if the 1st Doctor doesn’t regenerate there and then all the subsequent events in the Doctor’s timeline are altered, and 12 doesn’t exist as we know him, so he couldn’t save the 1st Doctor in the first place. Timey wimey – nice. The series ends with a bemused 1st Doctor realising he has to try to put the timeline back as it should be, or VERY BAD things will happen to space time. That means stopping the 12th Doctor saving him.

    Cue the Christmas Special:

    It is late, and the mechanics of it escape me now, but basically the Christmas Special is It’s a Wonderful Life, with the 12th as Jimmy Stewart, and the 1st as the angel, with the 1st showing the 12th how he has affected those around him positively, and that he is, after all, a good man.

    Somehow the 12th must end up dead (and the 1st too as a result). Could be a cheery Christmas treat….

    Frobisher @replies

    @jimthefish, @blenkinsopthebrave, @missrori

    Regeneration speculation! Now we’re talking! 🙂

    I love @jimthefish‘s idea of the Shadow Doctor regenerating, and Shadow Doctors in different simulations becoming different “new” Doctors. To push it a little further, what if the Shadow Doctors could destroy the simulations by all simultaneously regenerating, but each ends up different. We could then have the next Doctor played by:

    Kris Marshall

    Phoebe Waller-Bridge

    Ben Whishaw

    Idris Elba

    Tilda Swinton

    Tom Baker

    Jenna Coleman

    Richard Ayoade

    Maxine Peake

    Miranda Hart


    Sacha Dhawan


    That would be… um… something.


    Frobisher @replies


    Ah! I hadn’t seen your reference to The Passenger. What a song though!

    And yes, Under Pressure! A great choice with that line (as well as the title, of course!).


    Frobisher @replies

    Re. bootstrap paradoxes, as have been discussed elsewhere in relation to a specific forthcoming episode, how about this…

    The Master and Missy work together against the Doctor, before something makes Missy turn on the Master, killing him. The Master then regenerates into… Missy. Missy creates herself. Bootstrappy enough? Plus, double the Missy fun for a limited period. 🙂

    Frobisher @replies


    Pick up spare from desk tidy?

    Frobisher @replies

    Blimey, the BBC know how to start the hype early, don’t they?


    Frobisher @replies

    Hmm, a belated thought: Anyone else get a bit of a Flight of the Navigator vibe from this? I love that film! 🙂

    Frobisher @replies

    I like pushing the Bowie envelope a bit, so:

    Knock Knock + Oxygen = Sound and Vision?


    The Pilot was searching for… The Passenger (by Iggy Pop, but featuring the musical talents of our boy Dave).

    Frobisher @replies

    I would love it if Nardole turned out to be Frobisher. A CG penguin to hang out with the Doctor? Yes please!



    Could the President’s daughter (presumably the daughter of Rassilon) and Missy’s daughter be one and the same? Will we find out what happens to cause the Doctor to give Missy that brooch?

    Frobisher @replies

    Oxygen / Bowie?
    Ground Control to Major Tom
    Your circuit’s dead, there’s something wrong
    Can you hear me, Major Tom?
    Can you hear me, Major Tom?
    Can you hear me, Major Tom?
    Can you “Here am I floating ’round my tin can
    Far above the moon
    Planet Earth is blue
    And there’s nothing I can do”

    Frobisher @replies

    I had another thought about this episode late last night. The episode title reminds me of a classic joke. Could this even be a clue regarding the vault?


    Knock Knock!

    Who’s there?

    The Doctor.

    Doctor Who?

    Well, yes! How did you guess?


    Apologies if this has already been posted. The thread is too long to check now! 😉

    Frobisher @replies

    Not really a spoiler, but to be on the safe side I’ll stick it here:

    Kris Marshall plays the piano.

    Just sayin’.


    Frobisher @replies

    Oh my, @whisht! That is fabulous bonkerising! 🙂

    The fact 12 seems to have grown into a parent/grandparent figure, the lines about regeneration and not leaving your charge behind. If 13 did travel back in time as a child to get 12’s help, maybe 13’s TARDIS is also in the vault with him or her. That would tie into Nardole’s suggestion to Bill to consider a TARDIS as a big box inside a smaller box.

    Mild spoilers below…










    Bonus level bonkerising: Peter Capaldi has said he has already filmed his character’s death scene. Yet the Christmas special, in which he was expected to appear, has not yet been filmed. Could the Christmas special be the story of young 13 going back in time, and growing up under the care of 12, leading up to the start of this series? You could even imagine a theme running through of the maturing 13’s experiences of Christmasses over the 50 odd years 12 & 13 jr are together. That would be sweet.


    Frobisher @replies

    Did The Master play the organ while masquerading as a vicar in The Daemons? The image is half there in my head…

    Frobisher @replies

    Hang on, hang on! It all becomes clear!!! All the clues are there!!!

    The vault contains someone/thing that is needs to be contained, presumably for the good of the universe…

    The piano…

    The repeated David Bowie references…

    Is there Life on Mars? It can only be…


    Cracked it. <Drops mic.>

    Frobisher @replies


    I thought that for Thin Ice it might be Scary Monsters… And Super Creeps. It did have a scary “monster”, and a guy who was truly super at being a creep. Next week: an early guess for Space Oddity from me.

    Loved this week’s episode. Suchet was brilliant, and the twist was unexpected. There is definitely a theme of release going on, imo.

    Frobisher @replies


    A laughing gnome? Oh yes! I sincerely hope to see one. And I am not joking! 🙂

    Frobisher @replies

    As ever, I generally agree with you lovely people about this episode: Better than the Forest of the Dead, not as good as The Pilot. I felt that the Doctor and Bill were slightly flat at times. In their defence, I don’t think those emoji robots can have been easy to act against. I would be happy to never see the emoji robots again. The nano-robots (Varda? Vardy?) were good though. Like AI piranhas. I like the possible link to the Vashta Nerada. I would like to see more like that.

    Also, rather amusing that this colony was noted for finding the secret to human happiness. Going forward, it appears the secret is: Be happy, or the walls will eat your flesh and reduce you to nothing but dry bones. Cheery. I wonder what will become of those colonists, and their mental state?

    On another note, that is two weeks running we have had “arse” in the script. While the simile employed is very amusing, I am surprised to hear swearing in Who when it is shown relatively early in the evening. It doesn’t offend me, but it might offend others.

    @phaseshift @cathannabel  –  I am also on board with the Bowie theme. I think it is just the sort of thing the show (and Peter Capaldi) would go for. The Doctor is, after all, our very own Starman.

    “There’s a starman waiting in the sky.

    He’d like to come and meet us
    But he thinks he’d blow our minds.
    There’s a starman waiting in the sky.
    He’s told us not to blow it
    Cause he knows it’s all worthwhile.”

    Next week: Scary Monsters (and Super Creeps)?

    Frobisher @replies

    Hello again, all. I finally managed to watch The Pilot last night on the iPlayer (yay for watch on demand services!), and really enjoyed it. Bill was excellent.

    No real mad theories from me yet about who or what is in the vault. Though I did note that Nardole’s explanation of the TARDIS being a box within a box was said near the vault. I seem to recall that the TARDIS is not happy to be within itself. Could that be why the vault is in play? Is there a TARDIS in there? Could it be the 1st Doctor’s (for which they have the set), or the Master’s? My money would be on it being either of those two in there, much as many other people have said. The heavy Susan references make me lean towards Billy (or at least, the new Billy). Capaldi being such a big fan of #1 (remember him tugging at his lapel when he was first announced as the Doctor?) and the Mondas Cybermen coming make me think both may be involved in this Doctor’s demise.

    That said, someone upthread suggested a golem of sorts, the Doctor’s next body waiting for true life to enter it. That made me think of the Watcher between 4 and 5. That was an odd concept that hasn’t been re-visited. Maybe now?

    Frobisher @replies

    I’m not sure where you are, @missy , but DW was on the 25/12/16 in the UK, so people will have seen that. Maybe you can use the BBC iPlayer to watch it?

    I myself did not see it. Too busy playing with our ten month old! Glad it sounds like it was good, though.

    Frobisher @replies

    Is it ever explicitly stated that the Rassilon in Hell Bent is a regenerated form of the Rassilon we see fighting Simm’s Master? Could it just be that he is now very, very old? Age can change one’s physical appearance quite considerably, and extreme Time Lord ageing perhaps even more so.

    For example, when the 11th Doctor got very, very old he stopped looking like Matt Smith and started looking like some dodgy rubber face mask. Oh. 😉

    PS: I think I’ve seen the idea floated here (it may have been elsewhere), but I’d have found it very amusing if Dalton’s Rassilon had regenerated into one played by Pierce Brosnan… 😆

    Frobisher @replies

    Some very last minute, very bonkers theorising from me:

    When we met “our” Clara (aka Clara Prime) she was a nanny to some children. In “The Crimson Horror” she is seen fiddling with a toy robot in the childrens’ home. That robot is a Transformers G1 Galvatron figure. This jumped out at me at the time because that toy was released in 1986, and is an unusual thing for children to have as a toy in 2013. Transformer collectors like me, sure, but kids? Odd.

    Now, what is interesting about Galvatron is that he is the original Transformers lead villain, Megatron, rebuilt and given a new lease of life in a new body. You could say Megatron “regenerated” into Galvatron. Could this be a hint that Clara has also regenerated from a well known villain? Could the fact Missy dresses like a dark version of Mary Poppins, a childrens’ nanny, also be a clue? Could Clara be a missing link between the Simm Master and Missy? An enemy within a friend?

    Or am I reading waaaay too much into a simply idiosyncratic prop choice? 🙂


    Frobisher @replies


    Ah, OK. Thanks for clarifying. I wasn’t sure what the nature of the wraiths was, as I’m a relative newbie to regular Who watching. 🙂

    Frobisher @replies

    So, do we think that there could be versions of Doctors 1-11 + War “sliding” about as wraiths? I did see someone (forgotten who, sorry) mention that the wraith shown flickering in the trailer looked a bit like 10. Will the Doctor come face to face with the ghosts of his previous selves?

    Frobisher @replies

    I’ve seen a few people talk about the “time zone” line relating to GMT. I doubt the Doctor holds the way in which we mayflies choose to define when we should get up, go to work, go to bed, etc in that high regard. I would have thought that, when mentioning a “time zone”, a Time Lord is not referring to GMT, CET, ACST, EST, PST, etc. Instead, I believe there must be some sort of time zone on a more galactic level that 12 is referencing. Just the impression I got.

    Frobisher @replies


    A belated sorry and thanks for moving the posts from Spoilers. Apologies for taking the discussion “off piste”.

    Frobisher @replies

    re. The teleporter / potential multiple copies of the Doctor

    My understanding/rationalisation of this scenario is that during a “standard” teleportation the object that is teleported is broken down into a packet of (incredibly complex) data by the teleporter at the departure point, transmitted to the desired destination point, and re-constructed there by the counterpart teleporter. In the process of physical reconstruction the data is deleted/lost/used up. This would normally mean that is impossible to “photo-copy” a teleported object multiple times, as the transmitted data can only be accessed and used once.

    However, in the special case of this castle, the room in which the receiving transmitter sits “magically” resets after it is vacated. The Doctor’s teleportation data is used up when he arrives in the teleporter, but once he has left the room to play hide and seek, go swimming, do the gardening, etc. the room (and, crucially, the teleporter) reset to the state they were before the Doctor’s arrival. The Doctor’s data is at that point back in the teleporter memory cache, waiting to be downloaded and the Doctor “printed”. There is potential for there to be multiple Doctors in this scenario, but the safeguard for this is that the teleporter needs energy to function – and the room has no source of energy available. The machine can only create a new Doctor if the old Doctor destroys himself as fuel.

    While immeasurably calculating and cruel, it does seem like someone has devised the scenario in such a way that the Doctor always has “another life”, should he choose to use it, but at the same time ensured that there can be no paradoxical multiple 12th Doctor occurrences. Very Time Lord-y, imo.

    Anyway, on to more important matters; the episode itself. Wow. Just wow. Put me down on the “absolutely loved it” list. Jaw droppingly brave and inventive, utterly terrifying and horrific (how many times did the Doctor have to crawl for a day and a half, bleeding and dying, up to a room in which he planned to electrocute himself to death, leaving nothing but dust and bone?), and pretty much the best thing I’ve seen on TV all year.

    The only things I could nitpick on (because nothing is perfect, after all!) are:

    * The jaws staying attached to the skulls. Seems unlikely. Also, incredibly minor and inconsequential.

    * How do the rooms “magically” reset? Is this a timey wimey, time loop thing? Any theories on that?

    Bring on the next episode!

    PS: For what it’s worth, I don’t think any significant time has elapsed in our universe during this episode. The Confession Dial is almost a pocket universe of it’s own, mirroring ours in some ways, but running independent of it. The Doctor has not aged that much either (just however long each copy of the Doctor was active for – a few days?). However, he will now have a sore hand, as he has punched the pseudo-diamond wall at least once. That’s gotta hurt!

    Frobisher @replies


    I think we will soon also need Rule 0: The Moff lies.

    Something very clever is afoot, in my opinion…

    Frobisher @replies


    I agree with the theme of “illusion, sleight of hand and disguise” you mention. I would also propose a theme of stories being edited or revised, possibly to change or obscure the truth. Rasmussen obviously edits to his own ends, Me edits her diaries to remove sections she doesn’t like (or perhaps someone has edited them for her, to deceive here?), the Doctor “edits” his own actions re. the boy Davros, and (though this may be more of a stretch) the Zygon story has a real feel of timeframes being messed with, in my opinion. We have a strange mention of the Doctor believing Clara to be dead, and it being the longest month of his life, plus there is a lot of long distance travel being undertaken by the main protagonists in, from our point of view, a very compressed timeframe. It all seems like we are only seeing certain parts of the story, with big gaps being omitted. Could just be a TV thing, of course…

    Are these hints that the story we are being told (the series arc) may have been edited or revised in some way (i.e. the order things are presented to us)?

    Frobisher @replies


    Being a Brit, I am finding the “pants” theory rather amusing, as pants are a rather more intimate garment for us. However, it is strangely appropriate, seeing as we have indeed had some information regarding the Doctor’s undergarments of choice this series – according to The Zygon Invasion they have question marks on them! 🙂

    However, nice work above on detailing the Doc’s wardrobe. I have no great insights to add yet (I am still cogitating and ruminating). I could not, however, resist the urge to discuss pants, a topic often overlooked in sci-fi.

    Frobisher @replies


    Now we’re talking! Trouser analysis! With pictures! Thanks for putting that together. 🙂

    I shall have to ponder this further, as well as the Doctor’s hair length(s).

    Frobisher @replies


    In the beginning of S9E2 Missy tells Clara about the time when the doctor was alone with a teleport bracelet in a castle-type and in the snippet he was wearing a white shirt with a red velvet long coat. At the end of ‘Face the Raven’ the doctor was teleported to a castle-type place with only a teleport bracelet and was wearing a white shirt with a red velvet long coat.

    Now that sounds good. I recall the images of Missy’s tale being in black and white though. Am I misremembering (as I often do)? It sounds like a lead on the order of the episodes though…

    Frobisher @replies

    You can just call me Frobisher, @puroandson. (However, I do like the sound of Mr. Frobisher, so the rest of you can smarten up, get a bit more polite, and refer to me as Mr. Frobisher henceforth. 😉 )

    Sounds like you have tried quite a few refreshing beverages! I expect you will grow to enjoy some of the drinks the rest of your family do – I know I did. I expect (hope) your Uncle is busy doing things he likes to do instead of the things he had to do when he still worked. But you are right, of course; Everything is a puzzle. Puzzles can be fun to try to solve though. 🙂

    Frobisher @replies


    Ha! Like mine ever do! 😉

    Frobisher @replies

    @wangkiky, there’s a “floor” in your theory above.

    By the way, recent medical research has led to doctors cautioning against walking barefoot on laminate flooring. Apparently it can lead to veneer-eal disease.

    I’ll get my coat…

    Frobisher @replies



    Welcome back, Puro, and welcome to Ilion. I like @tardisblue ‘s thought that you are our first hybrid member. Quite an honour!

    I’m glad you are feeling able to join us again, Puro. I look forward to reading your posts, as ever. And Ilion, I look forward to reading your thoughts too.

    Surely the boy Ilion can have a shandy, at least? My Nan was giving me cans of shandy when I was 5! (Though, seeing how I turned out, this may be a very good reason not to start drinking too soon…).

    Frobisher @replies

    @bendubz11, I think you are getting somewhere with this theory.

    Does anyone know what the Doctor and Clara were wearing at the end of The Woman Who Lived, and if that corresponds with their clothing at the start of any other episode (e.g. Sleep No More)? The Doctor’s hair length may also be a clue – it noticeably fluctuates.

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 75 total)