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23 November 2015 at 19:20 #47657
As for the question of why the Doctor didn’t offer to take the quantum shade, my interpretation of “The Rules” was that the obligation could only be given away once, not passed around like a hot potato. Just a thought.
I agree. Also, the sense I got was that there’s a set chronology in which things can happen:
- Ashildr/Mayor Me can remove the chronolock.
- If Mayor Me refuses, then the individual afflicted with the chronolock can pass it on to one other individual, but that second individual must willingly request and accept it. At this point, the first individual has changed the rules of the contract under which Mayor Me is bound, meaning that Mayor Me can no longer intervene. That was Clara’s fatal mistake, not realizing there was a contract (complete with fine print) binding Mayor Me to the Quantum Shade. Clara thought she had Mayor Me’s absolute protection, but there was nothing Mayor Me could do once Clara changed the rules of the game.
23 November 2015 at 19:03 #47655@mersey Thanks for that link to the Radio Times interview! Reading it, I’m amazed the 50th anniversary special turned out so spectacularly well. Not because of the talent involved; there’s no question there. But because it all seemed to come together at rather the last moment. I figured this had been in the works for years!
23 November 2015 at 18:20 #47646@sirclockface Thanks for these video links! I confess that I worry we are looking toward a time when the Doctor travels without a companion. I have no idea if that’s the case, but if it is, then those tend to be my lest-favorite episodes. I enjoy it when the Doctor’s personality bounces off that of his human companions. We’ll just have to wait and see what’s in the cards for this Doctor.
23 November 2015 at 18:02 #47642Just spotted this video (non-spoilery for future events, but spoilery for anyone who hasn’t yet watched this episode) on the Tube, in which Moffat explains the inevitability of Clara’s death: Death & Consequences – Face The Raven – Doctor Who Series 9
23 November 2015 at 17:48 #47641@jphamlore You make some very good points about Clara missing what the Doctor truly needed from her. But I think there are two distinct elements to Clara, as we know her, which may have kept her from fully understanding this:
- She and the Claricles (or maybe she too is Claricle; dunno) were meant to save the Doctor. Surely this must have resonated throughout her subconscious, at the very least. What is it we often do to protect someone we care about? We hide the truth from them, in the mistaken notion that we are saving them from pain. But I think ultimately the reason we do this is because we, ourselves, can’t handle their pain … so we avoid it. Is that the right thing to do? Of course not. But it’s very human.
- In that vein, perhaps Clara succumbed to one of the most human of all traits … the need for approval. What do we do when seeking the approval of someone we admire? We emulate them, in the mistaken notion that this is how we win their approval (when usually it’s the last thing that person wants or needs).
23 November 2015 at 17:22 #47634@jphamlore One could also argue that traveling with the Doctor for such a long time, longer than any of the other companions, damaged Clara irrevocably. The traveling process had eroded her sense of what it means to be human and to live, and then Danny’s death snapped that tether altogether. The Doctor, as Clara noted, gave her a reason for being. But it’s not really living in the fullest sense that humans are meant to live. Clara was living the ultimate escapist’s dream … experiences charged with non-stop thrills and stimulation, but not without consequences.
Living a companion’s life for so long changed Clara’s perspective, and I think it makes sense that by this time she would have flawed reasoning, viewing herself so often not through a human lens but an alien one. So it seems this (or something much like it) was the inevitable outcome. To avoid it Clara would have had to reject an ongoing life with the Doctor … and that’s something she refused to do. Maybe that’s why she embraced death. She was finally acknowledging what her choices had led her to, and opening her arms to the final reality of what it means to be human.
@blenkinsopthebrave I like your analysis of Capaldi’s Doctor and how he is, as you point out, starting all over again. I’ll keep that in mind as I continue watching.
23 November 2015 at 17:05 #47630Capaldi’s Doctor seems more alien, less human-like than his new-era predecessors. He reminds me somewhat of Eccleston’s Doctor, but without the spontaneous bursts of joie de vivre that he, and also the Tennant and Smith Doctors, exhibited. So, even with nearly two seasons under our collective belt, I do still find it difficult to get a firm grasp on who he is. He seems almost reptilian at points … though I know that’s an odd way to describe someone’s demeanor. But that’s the word that first come to mind, for me.
23 November 2015 at 15:05 #47625In fact, if he accepts Clara’s “order” that he not take revenge on whoever set this up, that leaves him no one to take revenge on but himself. She should have thought of that, but under the circumstances . . .
I think she did think of that. When he asked her what the point of being a Doctor was, if he couldn’t heal her, Clara replied, “Heal yourself.”
23 November 2015 at 06:08 #47591Dearest Puro/Melissa,
Thank you for this explanation and apology to Geronimo/Daphne. Heartbroken for you is all I can say. How I will miss your eloquent observations and reflections on the Doctor’s not-so-aimless wanderings. Through you and others here I have learned so much about this beloved show … but even more importantly about humankind. If it means anything, I hold you in my heart right now.
I also understand that you need to do what you need to do at this time. And I respect that.
Nerys/Sue
23 November 2015 at 05:55 #47590It’s funny. I loved Eccleston and Tennant as the Doctor, and really couldn’t imagine anyone topping Tennant. So I stayed away from Matt Smith’s Doctor for his first entire season. Then, at some point I started watching again, and was kicking myself for missing out because I really enjoyed his uniquely manic take on the Doctor every bit as much as his predecessors. As others have noted, he had an amazing ability to convey ancient wisdom in a young face. And then his relationship with Amy and Rory was extraordinary. On top of that, he was our Doctor during the 50th anniversary of Doctor Who, and of course we got all kinds of goodies associated with that.
Once we got Netflix, I made sure I got caught up with all of Smith’s episodes. I did feel a bit of trepidation prior to Capaldi’s Doctor, but then he and Jenna Coleman’s Clara clicked in a way that just didn’t quite happen with Smith’s Doctor (other than “The Day of the Doctor”). So gradually he too grew on me.
My biggest reaction to regeneration, going from Tennant to Smith, was denial.
23 November 2015 at 05:06 #47586Also when the raven entered Clara’s body, there was an intense light. There was no such light when the street person died.
Thanks to your pointing this out, I made a point of looking for this on tonight’s rewatch and saw it, as well. I’m hoping it’s significant … much like the blue light was significant before Missy was supposedly vaporized (but we later learned that she had transported herself).
@sirclockface I too noticed Clara’s and the Doctor’s wardrobe change, from the opening scene to when they met up with Rigsy. I was puzzled as to why they would have changed clothes, or even when they would have had time to do so. I wonder what significance, if any, there is to this detail.
22 November 2015 at 15:56 #47516@iusedtobethedoctor I don’t think Ashildr is meant to be likable. She was so young when the Doctor made her immortal that she hadn’t yet developed the emotional maturity of an adult. I think that shows in the choices she has made. She has enough certitude that she is right, that she is willing to be judge, jury and executioner of her little street community. She was angry enough with the Doctor to enter into a contract to lure him in, without considering the potential ramifications. It’s good that she at least seemed to feel remorse over the path her actions set in motion.
As for the episode itself, I’m still processing my thoughts on that. Like others, I think there may be some smaller, more upbeat ending for Clara. I hope so, anyway. I don’t mean a “happy” ending. But something with a little more hope. Though it may be that the theme of Clara’s story arc is, “Travel too long with the doctor … at your own peril.”
Hubby refuses to watch scenes for next week, so he missed the after-the-credits scene of Rigsby’s graffiti art on the TARDIS. I do wish they had positioned that differently, pre-credits, for folks who don’t like spoilers. It was an important detail, and a wonderfully poignant ending scene.
20 November 2015 at 14:22 #4733920 November 2015 at 14:18 #47338You know, I had forgotten this little detail of it being set in 2016. At the time, I didn’t think much of it … but then, I didn’t know what was going to happen to Danny. Then again, do we know what year we’re supposed to be in currently? I’m never sure if we’re to consider this “present time” or not. This is a time-traveling Doctor, after all. I don’t have any answers. Anyone else?
20 November 2015 at 02:32 #47314I never “hated” Clara. In fact, I struggle to think of any fictional TV/film character I have hated and can’t come up with one. I did realize that if I knew her in real life, Clara would be someone who’d probably annoy me. But I also understand that TV characters tend to be written very differently from the way most of us are in real life. So I have always had a problem when people say they “hate” thus-and-such character on TV.
With Clara, I did find the character underutilized early on (especially after the great introduction we got to Oswin in “Asylum of the Daleks”). In the beginning Clara seemed like an anemic character, by comparison. But I felt she really came into her own during Season 8, and I have enjoyed her even more this season, in part because of the knowledge that this will be her last. So the suspense and anticipation of seeing how it will be resolved lends even more weight to this season’s episodes.
19 November 2015 at 16:30 #47293What does “pants” even mean? (I know the general meaning. I mean in context with some sort of criticism.) Is it that you drop your pants to take a poo? Underpants? What?
17 November 2015 at 05:25 #47171Something my husband worked out, which I didn’t, is that Clara figures out how to open the Morpheus pod. She does a hand gesture to her face, indicating to the Doctor (we think) that’ she’s not just a pretty face. There’s a brain up there, too. (Then there’s a distraction before she is pulled into the pod.) Nice bit of humor in this episode!
16 November 2015 at 17:55 #47123@drben Gotta love your description of them as “eye-booger monsters,” LOL! I’m curious as to why the ending made no sense to you. I think it did to me … but then I may just be imagining that. From what I can tell, the Doctor was able to save only himself and Clara (I don’t think Nagata made it into the Tardiss with them). And then we return to Rasmussen, who has been an unreliable narrator. He reveals to us that the whole point of assembling this video footage was not to warn viewers, but to ensnare them via the video. And then his face dissolves as the sand crumbles away. I thought it was a wonderfully creepy ending.
16 November 2015 at 17:33 #47120I also think the Doctor’s observation that this was playing out “like a story” is important. Ashildr?
16 November 2015 at 14:33 #47109I enjoyed this one. But then again, I tend to enjoy the more unsettling ones that don’t have a predictable narrative flow. I felt after this episode much like I did after watching “Blink.” I don’t mean to say that the episodes are identical, or even all that similar in content or style. But I had that same “What did I just watch?” feeling after both episodes.
15 November 2015 at 22:28 #47025I’d missed the ‘Doctor Who’ in the coding. @doctordoctorwho spotted that; excellent catch!
Thanks for that correction. Excellent catch, indeed!
As for the episode itself, I enjoyed it. It made a lot more sense on second viewing. Of course, for me first viewing wasn’t ideal. I worked all day, while hubby cooked dinner for guests coming over. So then we all enjoyed a lovely meal, with lots of beverages, and after our guests left I tackled several sink-loads of dishes, while hubby enjoyed some “brain pudding”-style TV viewing. By the time I got around to watching Doctor Who, it was past midnight, and the many beverages were taking their toll.
So this episode didn’t make loads of sense to me when I first watched it. But on this afternoon’s second viewing, the narrative flow came together a whole lot better for me. Quite creepy … and it would have terrified me as a child! (Believe it or not, I managed to sleep quite well after watching it the first time, despite the theme. I think the beverages played a role here!)
15 November 2015 at 18:35 #47009@countscarlioni Right away I spotted Clara’s name listed in the downloaded names at the beginning, but I didn’t catch “Doctor Who” (shown horizontally, intersecting with Clara’s name) till my second viewing. And even then I had to hit “pause” to really see it. Good catch!
15 November 2015 at 17:28 #47005@margaret-blaine I too believe that since “The Witch’s Familiar” Clara has remained trapped in the Dalek, and that we would come back full circle to her “Asylum of the Daleks” incarnation. But I hadn’t worked out exactly how. You’ve come up with a beautiful theory. Bravo!
12 November 2015 at 03:03 #46823Just noticed something on a re-watch: When Clara and Bonnie are conversing via Clara’s TV, Clara reveals to Bonnie where the Osgood box is, and Bonnie threatens Clara, saying she is looking forward to Clara’s death. But Clara insists Bonnie will want to talk to Clara when she finds the Osgood box. Yet, once they’re down there, Clara doesn’t do any of the talking. Only the Doctor speaks to Bonnie and Kate. Hmmmm?
11 November 2015 at 17:05 #46795i just wish and prey, that steven moffat would bring back classics, like early cyberman, as everyone wants that, bring back omega, 6 months ago i was screaming for davros, and it delivered big time!!!
There are those like my husband, a longtime Doctor Who viewer, who wishes the opposite. I think he considers it lazy writing to keep relying on the old familiar favorites. He prefers newer ideas, and also standalone episodes. I think this is just a matter of personal taste. I came in later in the series, so I’m OK with them re-exploring old themes. But I also want new ideas and themes. So I think what Moffat & Co. are trying to do is strike a balance and appeal to both sides of the fan base. It’s a bit like trying to keep all the James Bond fans happy … basically an exercise in futility.
11 November 2015 at 16:46 #46793@jphamlore Thanks for pointing that out.
10 November 2015 at 23:47 #46748Actually, being the RAF it would be Group Captain Jack….
My thoughts exactly, as soon as I read “RAF-style great coat.”
<Nerys staggers toward fridge as Donna bellows on phone.>
10 November 2015 at 18:20 #46730Speaking of the TARDIS, has anyone worked out why the Cloister Bell was going off like mad at the start of several episodes this season? It happened so frequently, I was starting to think it would be part of every episode. I had a theory revolving around Clara, but now I’m not so sure about that.
10 November 2015 at 15:15 #46715Wow, @frobisher I like your ideas about Orson and what Clara might do to save Danny. Brilliant bonkerizing! Though, as @purofilion has pointed out, there are a few snags in the resulting timeline. Isn’t that always the case?
9 November 2015 at 17:50 #46669@kharis Dunno if I agree with you about River having played a role in creating Clara, as Missy is the one who claims to have done so well in choosing her. So I think it far more likely that Missy has played a major role in creating whatever Clara is, rather than River.
9 November 2015 at 15:33 #466589 November 2015 at 04:46 #46642Welcome, @carrieanne! I agree with you and others who don’t understand the dislike for Clara. Though I did find her underutilized when she first started out as a companion for Eleven. But she really came into her own last season, and this season has been brilliant. I am not looking forward to Clara’s departure, in whatever form it takes. I’m thinking I’ll need to have a box of Kleenex handy!
8 November 2015 at 15:28 #46601@ardaraith Interesting catch on the controls. I hadn’t noticed that. Time for a rewatch! I do find her wearing the long coat rather out of character … or at least, out of character for Clara. But very Doctor-like.
8 November 2015 at 14:50 #465988 November 2015 at 14:41 #46596Jenna as Bonnie/Clara acted both parts perfectly. It was eery to see Clara trapped in the pod but creating a safe place in her mind just like when she was trapped in the Dalek and making souffles. Clara is one heck of a strong willed person.
This was the only time I felt that Clara really acted like Clara. In the rest of the episode, we had Bonnie (who, as @supernumerary noted, was not simply “bad Clara” but an entirely different character), and then Clara, but a pale shadow of Clara. So I really am wondering what this means.
As for Clara, it is becoming more and more evident that the day she was trapped in the Dalek by Missy (perhaps only a calendar month prior in the Whoniverse) and the day that the Doctor said to her “I am so sorry” with that great sense of finality, is the last time the Doctor really was with “Clara” as he knows and loves her.
This takes me back to my bonkers theory that Clara is still a Dalek. Or, at the very least, irreversibly changed.
One other thing: Oswin wore bright red lipstick as part of her Carmen persona. I don’t think we’ve seen Clara wearing bright red lipstick till these past two episodes. Coincidence?
8 November 2015 at 14:18 #46593I am beginning to think that Clara’s fate is to be forgotten by the Doctor. Call it the Inverse Donna.
And yet the Doctor remarks on Clara making her way into one’s mind, seemingly in an unforgettable way. So it would certainly seem odd to go this route. Yet it’s not completely implausible, either.
A glimpse of Hartnell’s face on a safe in the Black Archive? A further sign that we are heading, the long way round, for Gallifrey?
I thought I’d just imagined that! Thanks for confirming that that is indeed what I saw.
I was totally expecting some sort of big, quasi-apocalyptic showdown. It was wonderful to see this quieter, yet equally tense climax mirroring the art of negotiation.
And yes, the reference at the end to time, with the Doctor insisting it had been a month. Still pondering the significance of that one.
One little loose end: I keep wondering what happened to Kate’s Zygon copy. Or which version of Kate are we seeing?
4 November 2015 at 03:45 #46304A minor point to note in passing also: the gravestone we saw must mark a cenotaph, not a grave with a body in it, since the Osgood zapped by Missy was reduced to a small pile of dust which would have been dispersed to the winds when the plane disintegrated.
You know, I had forgotten that the plane exploded. I remembered Missy killing Osgood, leaving a pile of ashes. I’d assumed they would have buried her ashes, but of course you are right; Osgood’s ashes would have been scattered, quite literally, when the presidential plane was destroyed.
3 November 2015 at 20:18 #46279Sorry, too late now for me to edit, but I left out a word in my post above:
As for the question over when a Zygon copy might have been made of the Doctor ….
3 November 2015 at 19:38 #46278@lisa The two scenes you mentioned bothered me on first viewing, for much the same reasons as your own. However, on second viewing, I thought the first scene was a play at humor. Stranger sitting in a swing on a children’s playground, then approaching two little girls who are eventually snatched away? It is creepy on first take, but I thought that was the humor. In what world would an older guy dressed all in black be allowed to sit there and watch the kiddies, without a thousand cellphones photographing him and making the rounds of teachers, parents and law enforcement? I tend to think in today’s world, that just wouldn’t happen without some sort of reaction. Yet there he sat, barely a glance in his direction … and that was only by the two little girl Zygons when he addressed them. I just don’t think it would play out that way in any “normal” scenario.
The second scene bothered me on first glance because I felt certain no soldier would fall for that ruse. He had been warned about what the Zygons were capable of, yet he fell for it anyway. On second viewing the scene seemed a bit more believable to me. Who knows what lurks in the background of his relationship with his mother … what feelings of guilt and so on? The Zygon seemed to be preying directly on those emotions, and he caved. I do still question the other soldiers going in with him. I can see him doing it, but not the rest. Unless the Zygons standing on the church steps were masquerading as people somehow related to them? That wasn’t fully explained, but it’s the only plausible explanation I can think of for why the other soldiers would follow him in.
By the way, at first glance I too thought the boy sitting on the stairs was the one Danny sent back. I’m glad I wasn’t alone there!
As for the question over when a Zygon might have been made of the Doctor (not saying I’m rolling with the theory, just suggesting), there was that point on the playground when a smoke bomb was thrown, and as I recall there was a brief moment when we didn’t see the Doctor, and then he appeared through the red smoke. That’s the only time I can think of when it might have happened.
3 November 2015 at 19:28 #46277@torchwood3 Nice to see another Eccleston fan here! I enjoyed his too-short (IMO) run as the Doctor. But I have also enjoyed all who succeeded him.
3 November 2015 at 03:12 #46233OK, as I guessed was going to be the case, this was much better on second viewing. I felt like there were even more commercial interruptions than usual. I know they’ve gotta pay the bills, but it really disrupts the flow of the story. It all held together so much better when I could fast-forward through the commercial breaks!
1 November 2015 at 14:40 #46086Question: When Osgood (we assume this is Zygon Osgood) visits Osgood’s (copy or original?) gravesite, doesn’t the marker say, simply, “My sister”? If that were the original Osgood, then wouldn’t the headstone be far more detailed? Dates of birth and death, some sort of inscription, etc.?
1 November 2015 at 14:20 #46084Oops, sorry, Truth or/
andConsequences. And yes, I figured that’s not the real town, but rather a set depicting (not very accurately, it seems) the town.1 November 2015 at 14:10 #46082I hope that this episode improves on second viewing. I have a feeling that it may be one of those episodes which I think I dislike initially, but it’s because of the countless jarring commercial interruptions which disrupt the flow. I found the first three-quarters to be a bit plodding, only picking up at the end … and oh, how it did pick up! So I think I should probably be a little less grumpy and watch it again before commenting further.
@starla Thank you for that explanation about Kate! I kept wondering where the Zygon version of her was. Having it be Zygon Kate who went to Truth and Consequences would explain why she went in without backup. As we learned in “The Day of the Doctor,” the Zygons aren’t good at spotting who is human and who is one of their own.
30 October 2015 at 23:37 #45924And yet what’s remarkable to me about Donna was that she wasn’t cast as the “babe” I’d imagine most 18-year-olds would find appealing. She was attractive enough, but not according to Hollywood’s skewed image of the female form, as she was curvy in an “average female body shape” sort of way. Which, by the way, I applaud. How I wish more leading ladies of this body type were cast. But I just didn’t imagine that 18-year-old boys would find her attractive. The average woman in me was “You go, girl!”ing her all the way, especially as she developed into such a remarkable companion. Tough, yet endearingly vulnerable. And then her memory of all that she had done was stolen away from her. Which is why I still yearn for a better resolution for Donna. Her linkage with our current Doctor’s face gives me hope that it may yet come.
30 October 2015 at 23:20 #45923An Adventure in Space and Time is a nice drama doc for the Hartnell period.
I watched that on Space (in Canada) and loved it. If I recall correctly, it aired around the time of the 50th anniversary special. I felt like I’d traveled back in time, appropriately enough, and caught a glimpse of what it was like to be developing Doctor Who at the BBC back in those days.
@plainolddave
I won’t surrender to the new numbering style because it’s wrong.
In your opinion. Always an important qualifier to bear in mind with any discussion on what we like and don’t like.
29 October 2015 at 03:00 #45786EON’s James Bond has had multiple film reboots, with the most striking probably being the Daniel Craig era. The series also celebrated its 50th anniversary with Skyfall. Reboots and anniversaries are not mutually exclusive.
29 October 2015 at 01:00 #45775Audiences are fickle. Some shows that I thought hit their stride artistically were largely abandoned by their audience. So ratings are not always a measure of quality. I wonder if it’s as simple as the new-era Doctor being written, early on, in a rather romantic way, with younger actors in the leading roles. That’s a natural audience draw these days. Now we have an older-looking Doctor who has a very different dynamic with his companion. Not as natural an audience draw (though it certainly worked in earlier eras). Maybe that’s part of it. But it can’t be a matter of favoring logic over emotion. Some of the most illogical stories came at the height of Doctor Who‘s popularity … but that didn’t seem to hurt the ratings any.
29 October 2015 at 00:44 #45773I’m the opposite myself. But I recognize that the showrunners are opting for emotional and relationship payoff, and shorting rationality and coherence. I don’t necessarily see the two as being opposed. But I do see a prioritization of one and a rather shrifty attitude to the second. Eh, so it goes.
I disagree; I don’t think they’re “shorting” much at all. Perhaps a bit of rationality, but that’s been true throughout the entire run of Doctor Who. The stories gain coherence through the relationships. It’s not all about creating the most logical plot, and I am grateful for that. If I want logic, I’ll watch a documentary on statistics … though I think watching paint dry might be more engaging. Writers are reminded to “know your audience.” I agree that the folks running Doctor Who know their audience quite well, and by and large they write with us in mind. But obviously there are going to be folks with different expectations. You really can’t please all of the people all of the time. As you say, so it goes.
McCoy in his second and third series is ‘my Doctor’. I’m rare among Whovians: I didn’t imprint like a baby duck on My First Doctor. Instead, it was Sylvester McCoy – with that odd, funny, dark, manipulative and somehow powerful little man – who made me look at the TV screen and think ‘that’s the Doctor. That’s how I see the Doctor.’
I am much the same. Tennant was my first Doctor, so when hubby and I retroactively viewed early seasons of Doctor Who, I was sure I wouldn’t like Eccleston. I was wrong. I found him every bit as much engaging as Tennant. I was also a latecomer to Smith’s Doctor, but loved him too. Same with Capaldi’s Doctor. I thought Tennant could do no wrong, but so far none of them have, in my opinion. (Note to self: Must review earlier eras of the show!)
28 October 2015 at 11:33 #45733 -
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