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It’s interesting re-reading comments on 73 yards — @wolvesarerunning “everyone who meets Spooky Ruby manifests that original loss” is most interesting considering the recent episode.

@juniperfish also “when the Doctor has to restore the timeline …Ruby will have to vanish like the changeling she is- back into faerieland.”

Now, considering the theory there might be 2 Tardis’ and possibly 2 Doctors -one who is imprisoned by Sutehk or says “yes” & the other moving thru time to restore “normality,” it’s possible Ruby will vanish temporarily but somehow the Doctor ensures her survival/arrival at the correct time.

If the Doctor’s memory is changing regarding the Church on Ruby Road, & IF we assume he will need to protect & restore Ruby at a future point, is the person who deposits baby Ruby somebody other than her mother? Is it a Time Lord from a different time line…(perhaps no paradox in this instance? 1. Or will he brave the paradox?)

In 73 Yards the Doctor vanished. Did he do so because of the broken circle, significant because of what 14 said at the end of the universe, effectively ending his own time line when circle-stepping  OR is he disappearing to fix the mess created by Sutehk?

1. Given how RTD respects a paradox I don’t think the Doctor reappears on Ruby Road… But I do wonder WHO deposits baby Ruby. Why is she/he cloaked? Unless hiding is paramount (it’s not 1978/67 but 2004).

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@bunface I think RTD may have suggested that 14’s run has effectively ended -as Tom’s Doctor is a curator, so David’s Doctor is pottering in Donna’s garden…However like Moffat and the Doctor, I’m sure RTD fibs too. He could indeed return but it would be well hidden from audiences until a proper reveal.

Now, did Gatwa’s Doctor ask Rose “how is your UNCLE!?” Is he Uncle/Doctor or was there a different gent in the house? Or did I miss something ? Perhaps @mudlark or @blenkinsopthebrave would know, too….

However @bunface I get what you’re saying:

“real love means absorbing and  acknowledging our history.”

Although the concept “woke” always worries me…

@ps1l0v3y0u thank you for the info about all the other Doctors -I know so little before The Gap though as a child Pertwee was my Doctor. The arch, aristocratic & at times cynical Doctor was what I expected from Who aged 6-10. 🤔😀

Puro

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@dr-pepper-bean

I don’t think the Dr needs to be punished. Since 2005 the Dr has carried a burden associated with this work, with his name. We know he’s saved countless billions.

I’ve noticed we’ve moved away from the Dr being the sole saviour, particularly since the Moffat era & into Chibnall’s, the ‘companions’ have had to solve their planet’s problems -whether on the moon, or where Rory was the boy who waited; where Clara survives in between her penultimate & final heartbeats… & where Yaz walked earth alone for decades, over a century ago.

I think it’s time that the Doctor isn’t our only saviour anymore.

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@juniperfish I like it! “ That in an alternative universe the Doctor said yes.”

ooh, yes, I think you’re onto something here. The TARDIS groaning & the fact we have STRIAD/Sutehk appearing everywhere (& in places we haven’t specifically seen) Ruby & Doctor travelled in the universe.

That we have 2 TARDIS perhaps one is an Alt reality where the Doctor feels he must say “yes” the result of which are the odd tales; the similar stories where Ruby is shown a burning planet from a spaceship calling her mother just like Rose did in her second episode in 2005 etc etc.

The second Tardis (hence what you said about the groans, @juniperfish ) may be used to fling Sutehk into a time wilderness via another Time Window with Mrs Flood’s help? Who could be Susan?  @unitpicker

So Ruby (Horus) is the daughter of ….a certain wolf ….? I like how Ruby & Rose are similar….

That Susan’s name is quite ancient, meaning Lily of the Valley…. (THAT valley). A place not far from a river which floods….

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@scaryb @juniperfish @mudlark et. al.

Yes, this is juicy! ScaryB, yes, something is very odd about Ruby -Maestro says “she has music hidden in her soul…. This creature is VERY wrong. And HE can’t have been there that night!”
@unitpicker “she could of course be the real Susan.” Oh yes! That’s most intriguing.

Juniper -yes, me too. How can the fixed point suddenly change ? Perhaps this particular baddie can alter … a point so it’s not…. fixed…..?

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@bunface “not as a costume” -in other words, originally playing at dressing up, to a point… Now, the Doctor is more fully immersed in this culture -he wears what he wants, as he wants which is precisely what we humans do. He is thus more natural, fully at ease in himself…. Or is he? 😉 As you intimated, too.

A VERY good point bunface….

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@miapatrick. Yes indeed, perhaps pressed for time though, he said “a different face, same person” but Matt’s Doctor phoned Clara to “help” this new Doctor because he would need her… and as he was so very different to the previous incarnation….  Absolutely. A friend like Mel must tell us truth – you’re amazing but get up! To have a  friend one trusts is gold.

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@bunface –very interesting yes…learned human social graces (?), which, to others like Kate, may seem odd or different for the same reason characters in the Doctor’s previous iterations (2006-2016) found his occasional coldness, his “jibber-jabber” timey whimey quite jarring. It is the centuries -long question, as you say, thoughts, or deeds-  as expressed by John Donne, for example.

Puro . Til tomorrow!

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@miapatrick I should clarify that I don’t mean to describe the Doctor as vain but rather they had a smell of vanity, occasionally -in the way it might be perceived by earthlings…In Gridlock the Doctor admits “I lied and I liked it. This way I could pretend. That they were still alive [context is everything!].”

Puro.

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@miapatrick yes! I recall Tennant & Capaldi mentioning their vanity: the conversation with Martha in Gridlock fraught with loss & memories of “the mighty citadel under twin suns with fields of deep red grass, capped with snow.” And he didn’t want to share this, as to make it concrete was to no longer contain despair…

and yes: blind or vain, but as you say, “when someone’s trying to blind him.” 

 

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@bunface Yes I see what you mean.

And the Capaldi iteration had a carer: “Clara cares so I don’t have to” so possibly there’s a more relaxed Doctor wearing heart on sleeve; carefully introducing characters to Gallifrey; to Susan; & ruminating on potential children…

Perhaps in keeping with his new personality: confident in himself; putting others first: to ease them in; to say: “show me the lovin’” so is it hysteria, or courtesy?

This might be a gentle response to those banging on about “ooh woke, ooh politically correct” when really it’s about how recipients feel; about civility & kindness when in our current climate the latter is oftentimes dismissed & interactions harsh or insensitive.

Puro.

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@winston ??? Halloooo!

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@miapatrick yes, you’re right, she did say it was the beast. It was interesting when the Doctor demands Ruby go into the Time Window (what a terrific idea!) & she asks “why?” that Kate says “go, don’t question!!!” -a little harsh considering the issue with Harbinger…. AND the latter did say, before the reveal, “this is what I’m made for (presuming the tech & analysis angle which means something else now…)” so for me, there was a lot of “mind blown” as I know little before The Gap.

as for Ruby? Golly, I’m lost! She seems SO empathic, kind & generous to the extent that she wants to speak to her mum not for herself but to reassure her. She mentioned several times how alone mum must’ve felt. But the whole created-reality theory is getting away from me – at least.

I think it was the Doctor’s anger at losing the soldier which surprised me -he didn’t know him, & it felt as if it was all about the Doctor for a second hence the “stop grizzling” by Mel.

lol -Kate check out together staff better. @miapatrick -oh boy, do I agree & she did explain that a lot of their problems were supernatural in 73 Yards. I’m also a bit stunned -what did Ruby say to everyone incl Kate which caused them to run? And NEVER come back -even to the pub, well after Ruby left? I don’t have the imagination to work it out. Other than Mad Jack …

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@blenkinsopthebrave to those who said it’s not sutekh…. Take a bow! And @ps1l0v3y0u and all those others who followed early Who and remember those very early episodes.

24 hours ago, and not having seen him before, or the years in which he travelled: “the mother and father and other of them all” all I could offer was The Beast because RTD LOVES a beast, devil or tormenter and yes he most definitely enjoys going OTT @mudlark so we’ll have to wait for part 2.

It was odd to see the Doctor slamming the wall? There’s something very human about this Doctor. Even facing the devil trapped in the dark of the Satan Pit or facing  Akhaten with Clara, he often behaved in a way that you’d least expect? I thought of the Family of Blood and the quiet “rage of a time lord” as he placed Mother in every mirror and Father in chains forged from the heart of a dark star: “He never raised his voice….”

Ncuti can do quiet, though and beautifully. And Millie Gibson is fantastic. And barely 19. 😳

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@mudlark you created a MAP?

wow!

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this ain’t my idea: on other places I’ve read ideas about S TRIAD creating a business with a Tardis and maybe it unleashes … hell? But in my opinion, what makes THAT idea sensible is Mrs Flood’s “never seen a Tardis before?” AND  that RTD has presaged this specifically with both a  biregeneration  and two tardis’ ….

also the  2 tardis timestream in Twice Upon Time led to havoc and snow falling…

 

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et. al…… I suddenly remembered the destroyer or the beast which is a supernatural being (RTD’s time with Satan/ ghosts etc) and Kate saying UNIT’S time was focussing more than ever before on the supernatural … in 73 Yards.

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Have people seen the preview (from 15 hours ago) on YouTube which has the Doctor asking who “the blonde woman is?” 2 mins long.

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@whohar well if it’s the 3rd Doctor -then it’ll be something else entirely. I didn’t see your post -apologies.

It seemed to cross over with my response to Mr Blenks.

Either way our wait will not be long…. 🧐

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@blenkinsopthebrave As you mentioned Sutekh I did some reading, having not recalled ANY of those adventures & boy did Sutekh get around! So that’s a great spot @blenkinsopthebrave et. al.

There was mention of a King Nocturne, though,  which is interesting -considering Maestro’s involvement. Certainly Sutekh fits as the One Who Waits & those here who know a lot about old Who have spotted similarities across the decades. Apparently this “destroyer”  known also as Satan (see The Satan Pit) was imprisoned in The Void -and we know RTD’s partial to a void ship…

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@blenkinsopthebrave looking at the description … the “Doctor’s ageless foe” has to be someone he’s encountered before… could it be Master territory? Could Mrs Flood be involved in this or be part of Division…? 🤔

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@janetteb the Alt doctor is a great idea. Also @miapatrick the fact the Doctor isn’t the sole -saviour now. It’s interesting in story and to look over all the Doctor’s seasons and how it was “doctor save us/will save us” to the Doctor expecting US to save ourselves: see Capaldi’s moon episode with Hermoine Norris to CC’s idea of the companions wandering the world alone for decades working to solve an alien problem prior to @ps1l0v3y0u Flux episodes (because I know you liked them so much… 🙂  )

but also the beginning of companions becoming best friends which is what I like about this & the previous incarnation of the Doctors.

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@whohar wow, yes, I love these theories!

it’s interesting how Carol Of The Bells, a Ukrainian composed new year song,is based on an older tune & with modern lyrics added during WW 1. It’s also both in 3/4 and 6/8. So it’s polyrhythmic qualities are up to the arranger, composer or listener – as to what _time_ or beat the tune is in… which, considering this is Doctor Who, is intriguing.

(Despite career in music I didn’t spend any time looking at Western polyrhythmic music -rather, the ethnomusicological equivalent of ….Malaysian rhythms…. Unhelpful 🙂  )

I’m liking the idea that Susan Twist could be just a RTD joke… And, “There’s always a twist” can be laid, with some difficulty, over the rhythmic motif of Carol of The Hells ….bells….

😳😀

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@krathoon @blenkinsopthebrave

Ah, yes, bright red fingernail. I like it.

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@ps1l0v3y0u

“River’s wedding barking brain blower.” 🙂 🙂

wasn’t it just? and I SO wanted to see the nightmare child! I had visions it _was_ the Doctor, at one point.
I’m envisioning something different now: is Ruby her own mother? I think not as @mudlark pointed out -it’s not a particularly great twist: “there’s *always* a twist..”

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@whohar @mudlark @janetteb @juniperfish @ps1l0v3y0u @blenkinsopthebrave @cathannabel

yes! I also think it’s an altered reality. I was rewatching Church on RR  & saw STRIAD (Tardis) -I’ve been slow on that front. Also an early episode actually mentioned the doctor’s granddaughter which I don’t think has happened in decades?

But on the issue of an altered dimension and one where the Pantheon are mentioned, where snowflakes are formed from Ruby’s tears, coupled with Tennant’s unease regarding calling into the universe, a myth or superstition AND Unit admitting that supernatural elements take up a fair amount of time, “now,” all points towards an altered reality….

Even Ruby taken to a planet, where the SAME shot appears- remembering Ecceleston’s 2nd episode (and the names? Ruby/Rose)- standing in front of the ship’s screen at the same time as the Doctor has “soniced” her phone so she can call her mum…All very similar.

*Then* we meet Rogue -and wasn’t Capt Jack a rogue? Yet this most recent episode feels a lot like Girl in the Fireplace too….

Even dealing with one lone bomb big enough to explode the planet is reminiscent of Eccesltone’s episode, Dalek…. It’s interesting how Rose begs the Doctor to let her see her dad (Father’s Day) but here the Doctor explains clearly why Ruby can’t ever go back to the Church on RR..

and is Mrs Flood a baddie? She didn’t  want to speak to the scary “staring” lady in 73 Yards when everyone else dismissed this as “not a problem.”  Mrs Flood made it clear it was certainly no problem of hers.
@juniperfish this episode dealt with loss beautifully. And yes, those lines delivered with Rogue’s liquid eyes were a jab to the heart: “at the end of that day I lost them.” It IS demonstrative of loss: “It’s always sudden.”

@ps1l0v3y0u “no more chicken headed mooks.” Well, amen to that!

seems to me that the Doctor has been “gifted” a perfect BFF who is clever, kind, helpful, and has a secret which the Doctor enjoys solving…. I wonder whether one of the Pantheon have decreed all of this for the Doctor…. But it doesn’t explain Mrs Flood yet, nor what you clever people all noticed, which is the Doctor crying but not knowing he is….?

Puro.

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Rubs chin… “Ruby a projection of the Doctor?!” I like it.

Yes, also a possibility that Susan Twist is the TARDIS too.  And what did Mrs Flood say awhile back? “Haven’t you seen a TARDIS before?”
As you say, & others too, that AI is a big thing this ‘season’ (1) and certainly Dot & Bubble were a large clue in that direction -or better yet an example, rather than clue.

(1) I also feel short changed with only 8 episodes. 🙁 Mind you everybody [Apple etc]  has 8 episode runs but with something so pregnant with sci fi philosophies and Who narratives, it tends to feel a tad thin now…The Moffat years were deliciously chunky and filling.

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Ah THOSE snowflakes… ❄️ I think this is part of whomever (and wherever) left Ruby…

I think her role is more complex than I originally thought (though others have surmised this pretty quickly!)

Is this person an old TL? Or a nasty god-type person? As others suggested, The Game Maker, maybe?

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Yes, he does look more like the other one…

I think 14 is first as he’s the most recent in the “new new new” Who on Disney +?
They all DO look odd- as if a mirror has been shifted so that their chins look more pronounced, or at least the bottom of their faces…?

I thought it could be R.E.G. too… but the forehead is odd. And also why? Unless this is the ‘reveal?’
I recently rewatched The Snowmen aaand I think they’re monsters produced from the child’s memory (that is, the GI as a child) with the snow mimicking him and then melting due to Clara’s tears. I think those stories are tidied away…. But the GI could return and so could the ….one rhyming with barnyard…. 🙂

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But can we add that MJ died only this year? The actor playing the …..

a very nice nod….

Puro.

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you mean … in the “yard!” I’m NOT sayin’ it here! 🙂  🙂

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@ps1l0v3y0u

by Testimony do you mean the alien in Twice Upon A Time?
To be fair, I REALLY need new glasses! (Possibly a better memory…)

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And could he be a “bad” doctor? Don’t want to say too much here….?

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Did we all see the unexplained extra Doctor-face during the scan onboard Rogue’s ship??

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@craig —agreed

on a calm note (pun intended). Interesting to hear the Who theme & variations played by the strings in the ballroom as Rogue, Emily Beckett, Doctor & Ruby discuss the cosplay.

Puro and Son.

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@blenkinsopthebrave interesting comments about HG Wells Time Machine: as a child, it was fascinating.

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@cathannabel

Good to hear from you!

Absolutely agree with the idea that many young ones aren’t as attached to social media as many others assume.

Just from our perspective only, The Son and many of his mates have virtually no socials with most working 2 jobs & at university/college. There is less time, less disposable income and as @janetteb might attest to, rent & food in Aus is cripplingly expensive.

Certainly the racial component also described by RTD as the most significant issue in the episode & the “step away before you’re contaminated (by the chap putting himself forward as leader)” was the most cold and despairing statement in any episode this season

@ps1I0v3y0u Yes! The undercurrent denying racism is evident. But then those squawking about how the series is horrendous are doing the typical thing…. No discussions as to why or how…  🙂

@janetteb @brewski yes, the initials…the names…..WHO is Ruby? I remember Season 6 & 7 with Matt Smith & Dorian’s “question hiding in plain….the question to end all questions…” etc. Doctor WHO?

nice to have these asked about the companion: we had this with Donna as the most “important” person in the RTD-verse.

@juniperfish I also had problems with Oppenheimer as did The Son. We both found Barbie to be watchable.  The fairytale motifs with 3 stooky babbies & the significance of both 3 & myths/fables is intriguing & with perplexing ambiguity!

interesting how archetypes & universal principles or forces impel & permeate the psyche across time/culture. This is one of the beats across this season whether Gremlins at Christmas; creatures at the end of the universe or the Giggle. The immortals (seen in TDC) described by Aristotle as “indwelling forms” or in Wittgenstein as “linguistic family resemblances linking disparate but overlapping particulars” are part of archetypal traditions described in many ways, with creative & diverse contexts.

Puro.

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@monkey8ea5t

I’m not sure it was at all ambiguous… was it? 🙂

possibly!

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I’m also reminded of The Wedding of River Song: “why are some people in boxes?”

Because some people are rich and some are left to rot…

🙁

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@janetteb hi-ho! Yes, I thought so too.

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Upon rewatch Lindy’s statements to the Doctor before the reveal are beyond disturbing:

This is getting ridiculous. I’m sick of you…

Is THIS (monster) something to do with you?

condescending much! Are you two in the same room? You’re together !

I blocked you! You’re criminals.  I was so right to hate you. He’s (the Doctor) going to be SO disciplined when this is over.

I’m reminded of Martha’s era and Human Nature where the boys AND Nurse Redfern explicitly comment on how Martha could never be educated or a Doctor.

Puro

 

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Interesting. To all those recalling the Scan the Doctor does I’d forgotten this.

I’m remembering how safe the companion is often not; and how promises are broken. I’m reminded of The God Complex where the Doctor says to both young and current Amy: “I knew this would happen. I can’t save you and there is nothing I can do to stop this….I’ve led you by the hand to your death. This is what ALWAYS happens. I took you with me because I wanted to be adored. I’m not a hero. I’m just a mad man in a box. It’s time we saw each other as we really are.” The loss of her faith is a stunning realisation and in a way we’ve returned to this.

It’s time to stop waiting.

Puro.

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@mudlark Dark is definitely worth a watch: the key to it all is a fabulous character based study where crossing timelines (not necessarily the most important part of the drama) creates a stunning backdrop for the story.

I’m pretty sure -& no spoilers here- one of the female characters is her own mother…. There’re a few instances of  timey whimey plot points – though not repeated exactly.

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@devilishrobby

Goodness, I echo others in wishing you a quick recovery: my husband had a heart attack approximately 6 weeks ago but thanks to one of the best Australian cardiac units located a mere 5 minutes away, he was home within 5 days. This isn’t often the case & it was definitely nerve inducing but I believe he also took advantage of the free wi-fi,  essential in these situations.

You’ll have plenty of insane bonkerising on these threads to keep you sufficiently distracted interspersed with fantasies of appetising & colourful meals you can happily chomp on once home -hospital food generally soft & flavourless.

I’m now wondering about Ruby’s origin story & if indeed she’s her own mother? I’m reminded of a friend who recently introduced me to the wonderful 1980 film, The Flipside of Dominick Hide & its sequel, Another Flip for Dominick …..starring a young, lithe, Peter Firth, later a main character in Spooks.

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Just been told there are only 8 episodes this season! 🙁 🙁

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Schrödinger’s Cat … the point at which Ruby *doesn’t* read “I miss you” is where the Doctor both exists and doesn’t exist ….in the ‘box?’

Puzzled.

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I don’t know, I think it’s great to reference previous ideas..Moffat’s Boom shows us the themes, chapters and characters that exist in his Whouniverse which are now ever-present and I like that. I hadn’t thought of the Mummy Train, though, but it did remind me of The God Complex.

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Oooh wow! I remember my first ever post on this forum many years ago writing of my love of Old Who -dirty, dilapidated corridors, rain & wind, quarries… and a general tremble of dis-ease as occasionally, on a different planet, or a different earth – nothing seemed quite right…. This episode held that and more for me. And Sian Phillips, all of 91! (I Claudius).

Puro

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@mudlark yes, one thing about RTD is that ….lack of delicacy …but in rewatching the Tennant years, and of course the Ecceleston years also, RTD has ….I was about to say “matured” as a writer which is a tad arch of me. Still, great to see a completely different episode in this season: more dialogue and less shouty shouty..And I love a callback.

This episode came at the right time too.

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Cor, it’s lovely to read everyone’s wonderful ideas and memories of past episodes: the doctor’s ditty “the moon and the President’s wife.” I KNEW I recognised it from time past….

thank you to @juniperfish and to @scaryb @blenkinsopthebrave @mudlark and @craig

So much to read and ponder on and respond to! whee-hay!!
Puro.

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