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I’ve  watched a lot of this season several times -Rogue was fabulous as was the penultimate episode @whohar but no, I didn’t get the reference myself -funnily enough I’m no proper fan of Sci Fi: Blake’s 7  I tried once or twice. Though I DID catch Foundation (big fan of books and 2021-24 series).
@cathannabel indeed. I welcome the Garnett.

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@ps1l0v3y0u the Tardis was exploded by the Silence effectively implanting this in Dr Song’s mind (at that point relatively early in their I hate you/I love you relationship). 🙂

Even in the Tardis itself, in The Pandorica Opens, River says over & over “I’m sorry my love” as it begins to explode causing a detonation event across time and space which naturally the Doctor fixes IMMEDIATELY. This is what he always does …. So that also explains, narratively and continuitively (!) why Doc Gatwa can fix All Bad And Evil Death in Empire of Death, speedily.

😲 😉

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@ps1l0v3y0u

Silver Nemesis?! = Harbinger…. Noice. That’s a great sp0t.
@nerys I get where you’re coming from & yes, keeping life free of added-on bits & pieces is less stressful. Our boy has remade his room & study into a monastic copy- bed, shelf, chair, Desk (there’s a 4m by 2.5m world map too). clothes fit in the shelf & the shelf’s study books. He seems to have hammered hooks into the wall for various sporting clothes. 😮

@winston DVDs are always a great buy. I bought a yearly Disney sub but I forgot that Who was only 8 episodes, not 13. It’s a big difference leading Rus to get to the point super-quick which shows, at times!

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@mudlark -ah yes, no, I understood (a tad late) but I’m not sure that PPP is going to be any different to RTD’s original intention. It would be interesting if there was a different configuration.

@miapatrick. Absolutely. I wholeheartedly concur. & I think that RTD explained, somewhere, that the hooded woman was “shadowed by time…..?”

Mudlark. Maestro is wary: “she’s very wrong.” Is this significance that the Doctor spoke of in the finale related to Sutekh’s attachment to Ruby? So Maestro describes her as “very wrong” but is that because the Doctor is perhaps obsessed with her & this perplexes Sutekh?

And Ruby’s determination to locate her mum is…..enormous ….to the point of obsession… where she can’t function at all. Except none of that’s true. So, yes, I’m a bit stumped. But we know that RTD is interested in theme over plotting & this show comes with acres of backstories, cruft & continuity issues as well as obstacle courses…. Maybe this season was exactly as it’s supposed to be?

But as you said IS the One Who Waits the same as the Oldest One? Is it Mrs F?

@ps1l0v3y0u I think you’ll find the Tardis crack was explained? It was the angry TL’s who’d been cup-of-souped at the ‘side’ of the universe & were calling to get out….😄

As to the SN connection ….I haven’t read that post yet. Though I’m not sure what SN means -unless it was another, nearby also-voiced nasal consonant? 😀

Yes, backtracking to R & even that scene…R’s mystery bracketed the entire season.  Given that R was peculiar to the Doctor, her magical mystery tour is what drove the season so if she’s back then it has to be = mystery + twist.

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@mudlark @whohar @ps1l0v3y0u @vickymallard  et. al

I appreciate the theories but I wonder to what extent it’s likely the Christmas episode (or Eps 1-2, next season) will address issues of the Position of Pointing Person (PPP)  particularly the differences between the first & last episodes under forensic analysis? 😁

If it turns out R’s birth mum isn’t ‘ordinary’ it might cut into RTD’s socio-political vision of the Doctor’s companions as @juniperfish & others have eloquently described. I guess the same goes for R herself & if the PPP is shown to be an overlay figure thus accounting for subtle changes in directional shooting etc., I’d question RTD’s marriage to his core assumptions or whether he’d undercut the dogma. I recall Joss Whedon discussing the importance of not hanging a serious plot point over a season’s break as it dilutes its power.

Elsewhere I read a theory about R’s snow. It suggests Sutekh is confounded by the Doctor’s concern for R’s cosmic potential, so much so, that suspicions cause him to “shadow her continuously as he’s wary of R’s mother’s uber-power & also thinks R’s a dodgy being.”

He cannot let R die until this mystery’s solved so extends a protective corridor around her. Key to understanding this, is Sutekh’s presence can sometimes be discerned where there is ice: when Mel was infiltrated, Sutekh “concentrated his powers to the extent that the area around her (& others also) became intensely cold, thus whenever R is anxious & in danger, there’s snow….” Unless, as others pointed out, in this complication of Mrs Flood (water, ice…) there’s a snowy twist.

Could it be that TenDoc’s assertion of the supernatural caused mere wishes to be supersized, leading to a TL resurrection or re-creation of another god entirely: Tialoc or Enlil… -& who recognises a tardis?

Another idea is whether R’s dad could be involved in a way that’s….irregular? But again a dilution of RTD’s core theme.

Puro.

 

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@mudlark despite the 2 women, I do think that there won’t necessarily be a return to R’s mum. Pretty sure Rus would say it’s all tied up -theme over slavish addiction to plot.

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Thanks @whohar !

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@juniperfish yes, the article mentions Peter Pan

– also makes it clear the wish is over (the snow won’t necessarily be happening again)

-RTD is aware of other Disney shows….
-spoons

-and, ordinary people. They MATTER.

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I’m trying to link this -anyway  please, please FIND this and read it (I’m actually saying thank fuck). It’s from bleedingcool.com “What you missed, got wrong and much more” article. Someone else can probably link it. Courtesy of a pedantic friend.

it’s probably for us… 😎

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@ps1l0v3y0u

….Linx that I to my theory.”

Yup.

 

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Thinking about it more & more, why is Ruby’s mother really pointing? As others have said repeatedly, how on earth could anyone see it and why is she really pointing? If she’s  determined enough to cover herself up, why would she also point? 🤔

I know the answer we’ve been given, but ‘I want to name her Ruby Sunday” doesn’t make much sense.” If she’s aware of the camera then pointing would make less sense.

It’s the dramatic presentation of that scene which concerns….

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@ps1l0v3y0u

I think the false face REG lookalike Doc in Rogue could be successfully utilised at any time? And wasn’t it Moff’s last hurrah in 2016 too? I’m sure he’ll come back unless he has more writing for BBC or HBO to do?

God yeah, “the earth should be …enough.”
RTD loves reality bombs, end of universes, outside of universes, cyber men AND daleks etc etc. Maybe it was time to put dog on a leash? – which I have to say was very funny.

I’m not sure how copyright works in telly. Maybe those with education can tell me? If a story is written by …. (Insert name) then can anyone use snow, for example & have it linked to, say, REG in The Snowmen Xmas special with Matt Smith, without series legal issues? Q

It’s a bit like those hoping for River. She had a fantastic end with CapDoc… it’s over! And that’s a good thing. There are others.. Well, God, I sure hope so.

So I really don’t think they’d bring a low level baddie like that back? After all, 20-somethings were all “WHO?” when Sutekh returned.

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@whohar no, I totally get that. Certainly there’s a feel that the series is a tad ….thin, for me, at times? I’m reminded of characters who pirouetted on screen during 2011-2017 in chewy, but digestible stories in 11-14 eps a season including Christmas -certainly RTD had all sorts of specials after the success of season 2.

Whilst I like Ruby I do wonder if she’s sufficiently…complex beyond the not-orphan story? Rogue & Doom were captivating enough, showcasing her talents, but in general I have to admit there were meagre triumphs & vagrant habits.

I recall Mickey’s knavery, Rose & her mum -how operatically those stories were laid out. Amy & Rory: from boy to the man; the punch & humour;  the investigations of, & deep dives into, their alliance; their daughter; & their almost-divorce.

Then jousting Clara, all fractious sarcasm & a noble almost-death, recalling her simple-duple “Run you Clever Boy & remember mes” & the stunning writing. Compiling her losses is too difficult to do- there were many. But Moffat knew that a finale had to be earned, in the  campaign & the pursuit, was the win. Better to keep the capture til the last.

Sigh. 😞

Mind you, I don’t write verse: why enter a crowded field? 😀

Puro x

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@whohar I don’t agree that it is the writer’s, necessarily. We all have some form of post-grad here so we can think, obviously, but could it not be a situation where we are not accounting for the concise writing RTD might have shown here?

We want MORE emphasis on why Ruby felt/saw snow or why the carol’s so dynamic & I believe that this was answered specifically in Wild Blue Yonder & in The Church on Ruby Road.

Very old Who, like the original PoM, had a series of obstacles which the Doctor either failed to climb or eventually succeeded in climbing. Audiences now see that a LOT in the dross of excessive streaming platforms & new series (after series), soulless pieces with little development of specific characters who are trite, have claustrophobic scenes in which we’re not invested & yet rumour spreads like a blaze in thatch….
Perhaps what this episode needed was more spine…

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@juniperfish and @bunface you both referenced the Spoon.

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@krathoon because she’s remembering only her previous memory of the Time Window & her previous memories of looking at the VHS. We’ve learned, in the last 10+ years, that when we think we recall a fact or a memory that really we’re remembering HOW we remembered it last. But recall now how the Doctor LET wishes into the universe. This is significant.

Lastly, Ruby has no awareness-memory of being a baby BUT she was there: her DNA, her construct, her super structure, was there. This memory, then, is still a true one.

Also the SPOON. a clever clog remembered the spoon in The Sherwood Story (sorry, I can’t scroll back at the mo) but it’s also in Hell Bent and Heaven Sent.

I’m reminded of the Doctor eating soup from the village dwellers. This was sufficiently concise a point for us to recognise his alliance with them & his dislike of TL society. That conciseness is in this episode but I’d argue it’s a simpler story.

Puro.

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@krathoon I’m not sure the episodes hinged on Ruby remembering anything as a baby. She has the VHS tape. She went to the time window where they could see who else was there & to closely see if she could describe who her mother was -as in clearly describe or draw. UNIT would have sufficient information to be able to create a composite of this person I’m assuming.

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@krathoon

Interesting point!
@blenkinsopthebrave

ah! Yes I think it probably stayed with the Doctor proper?! What do we called that? Doctor to the first power…. 🤔
(Sorry about this -I do most posts on my phone & attempting to cut & paste quotes is often not possible for some reason).
@mudlark I think the snow came because of the world now hinging on wishes -from Blue Yonder. I think this comes from further exposition in The Church on Ruby Sunday. Also words like “luck” were chucked about a lot & we had goblins 👹 which reminds me of fairies- the same category perhaps.

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@bunface & @juniperfish yes, I’m thinking which is it?
If it’s collective wishes emerging from Wild Blue Yonder then why did the Doctor narrate a completely different reason for the return of life itself? That  “ memory is life ?”

@classicsrule1

A pedantic friend said that RTD “has the gift of conciseness.”  In rewatching  Before Gap or classic episodes, many of them stretched the plot out undesirably with obstacles each Doctor fixed before moving onto another. This didn’t happen here, RTD was concise, providing just enough information for us to follow along.

I know @juniperfish you stated that ideas “needed to breathe” & I get that, but is that our problem rather than the writer’s, I wonder…?.

Puro

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Brilliant posts people!

With the wishes at the end of the universe as @juniperfish elucidated, is it possible this applies to “death to death = life” @bunface you wrote of “2 wrongs don’t make a right.” And @blenkinsopthebrave yes, it seems “stupid” unless it IS connected to the wishes?
But if that’s so, then wouldn’t the Doctor need to work through this which, he decidedly did not do, so I’m stumped too!

@craig “characters stuck up a tree and get them down.” Yes, quite right.
@devilishrobby  indeed, is seems she is a big bad or, with the “clever boy” idea is it that she’s a watcher figure? But this doesn’t explain the prophetic utterances about “tell your maker.”
😳

 

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Now why did we think the episodes were part of a virtual reality? I remember how Rose was able to phone her mum on her first trip into space. The same scene and photography with Ruby -who also phoned her mum, Clara… We had Rogue, much like Capt Jack…. There’s probably something there which could still be relevant to our ideas about VR… & the similarity of these episodes to many others. From Carla to Clara etc etc…

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@classicsrule1 welcome to the forum!
I do think that the entire season WAS about the significance of Ruby’s mother. Pretty much from Christmas.

Many orphans, like the Doctor, and those who don’t know their parents, have taken this story to heart (Still, I understand you registered just to complain  😀). The series is strong and has been this way for many years. I’m sure it’ll go from strength to strength. There’s usually something in it for most people. This season, no exception.

@miapatrick yes, agreed. The ordinary amongst us shine. Not everyone is the Impossible Girl. I loved The Kind Woman. How memories die before people -like a virus attacking before the Dust drowns. I liked that image and idea.

Puro. x

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@winston absolutely, laughter, music, the best medicine. And Who is so comforting and comfortable a lot of the time. As recent reviewers stated, it would be rubbish if the Doctor couldn’t reverse the evil he met. But I know what you mean… “how did he hang the laundry that way?”🤨

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@miapatrick I think you won @mudlark some cash… “Mrs Flood chameleon arced til Christmas.”

Niiice.

I really, really would’ve liked the carol to have been used a little more. But overall, I can see why RTD has gone down this particular path. We’ve had reality bombs, the most important woman in the universe, the end of the world. And the death of the end…. So the death of death makes sense…..

and I enjoyed the use of 73 Yards.

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The Doctor says, though, @blenkinsopthebrave that “we invest things with significance.”

you did good work @craig 🙏

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@bunface yes indeed you did!!

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@magdiragdag welcome to the forum!

wow, the time is incorrect on Mrs Flood’s clock? Well spotted! I wondered too -why is the clock used? Is it JUST to show the storm (because we already see the storm) or is it something else entirely? I like it! People have suggested she’s chameleon arched.

Puro

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@bunface “the triad programme may be an evil entity…” ooh, I like it, I like it…” !!

A bit like the end of Nine’s run? 🤩

@miapatrick “Mrs flood is Susan who has been chameleon arced” I ageee with @mudlark for  this is super bonkerising…

And @mudlark 3+ hours is insanely good in your garden. And I agree, you don’t need it to be too shaggy -just a bit, shaggy….

@ps1l0v3y0u yes, we still don’t know why REG is in Rogue’s Gallery??? Im still wondering to what extent all these episodes really happened.

And, shepherd tones on I am The Walrus …. But only as in all Shepard tones…. being an example of something else….

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@bunface ever notice ears ringing? As you listen to streams or cars passing  -you might have access to a keyboard, guitar, tuning fork -or heck, whistle over a bottle, & you can match the ear ringing to “A” 440 hz. Fun trick. ‘Course, like a lot of tricks, it doesn’t always work 😬

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@mudlark wow! You got both 😳-please, please don’t read them both. 🤓 You’ll run out of time! -I said a lot. I’m so glad you’ve  regenerated a new knee. Back braces can be cumbersome &  bruising… & I know how important the garden is to you.

@bunface believe me, I have one eye open when I read about a title- all  the better to go “La La La” I can’t see you; can’t buy you (sing song voice). 😄
The music in Who shreds me. Watching the last of Amy Pond with SmithDoc & her motif combined with the Doctor’s, caused watery  “moosh” face & tear floods.

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@bunface -aw, shucks, thank you – back with my own username. classic radio is fantastic. How you interpret & why it makes sense to you is in keeping with Kramer’s The Hum of the World.
I liked nine too -the Moffat ep where he beamed? “everybody lives”  & you’re right he said “fantastic.”  He was swaggery doctor. Gatwa has that.

Edit: I was going to say that you do know music theory if unconsciously-that swelling, sonorous loudness at the end of Dot & Bubble filled with many instruments peeling shame…

Puro

 

 

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Yes, I said this. Had a massive post and it’s ….gone. Never mind!

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That was also for @whohar who commented on Jemma Redgrave & physics & maths. Also @blenkinsopthebrave  who inspired many thoughts on the importance of the Carol of the Bells & The Devil’s Chord.

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@whohar Spearhead from Space? Does this mean Ruby’s an auton? With musical powers?

A good auton who doesn’t know she’s one? Like the flesh in Matt smith’s Doctor???

I do notice Ruby almost never gets mad. She’s always relatively ….calm  when facing hissing goblins, snot monsters and Alien Bird monsters. 😳😳

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@cathannabel Wasn’t Stranger Things wonderful? The sheer power of music in the most recent season to transform & invigorate characters and to create a channel to more effectively beat the Big Bad was impressive, demonstrating how music is natural: endowed with a necessity and power to act as transformative, cosmically, across culture and  time, interestingly.

In ancient China and India, scales and units of measurements were viewed as part of an overarching principle of cosmic music similar to Plato’s Occidental theory where the relations between musical intervals, the characters and sound of particular scales, of numbers, influenced nature and society but also individuals right down to ‘singing tones’ believed to exist within the walls of flesh of the tiniest animals and within the building blocks of humans.

And in Japan and early China, a belief existed that social phenomena and elements of the calendar were related in the most complex of ways and were overlaid with significance when connected with the stars. I think this is happening here, with Ruby and the music “deep in her soul.”

As if special powers or supernatural forces are connected to the music which is acting as ‘memory bait’ and vibrating, using specific intervals only Ruby may sense or feel across her body or superstructure, as was believed by Plato and Pythagoras.

Earlier I suggested that the old Ukrainian hymn might be a beacon for Ruby to locate her self – should she find herself either fighting Set or be lost, in a similar way, perhaps among dimensions, as has happened to Rogue.

As you say, not long to wait!

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@scaryb you mentioned “psychic manifestation”…. & I think you’re onto something there… I was remembering how Ruby’s playing the keys; a goblin causes feedback (nice pun RTD) & S Triad yells out “oi” & asks for Gaudete. Mmm. She’s 2 people in 2023/4.

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Whoa, everybody has written awesome posts!

@miapatrick @juniperfish et. al. If the Tardis was infected when the Doctor saved baby Ruby from the goblin dinner then do we account for his tears, at other times, because part of him, perhaps due to his connection with the Tardis, is aware that something is deeply wrong?

In rewatching the beginning of The Church on Ruby Road, before the Doctor is mad-dancing in kilt, he’s watching Ruby at the keyboard, but he’s wearing a hat & it appears the right side of his face has tears.

However, production/rehearsal/filming scenes out of order could lead to ….Gatwa glowing. 🥵So I could be completely wrong.

@scaryb great post too & yes, Tennant absolutely could’ve filmed a secret cheeky scene. I believe it was @bunface who discussed the importance of absorbing the 14th, stylistically & ideologically.

I recall how the Giggle, in speaking of The One Who Waits, referred to his machinations as a “different game.”

The song implanted deep in Ruby’s soul could still be a beacon, if indeed her name is one….

 

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@craig it’s fantastic that you help -not just for a day a year (nothing wrong with that) but twice a week. That’s a tremendous commitment. I was reading about food insecurity in the UK, via the Food Foundation Tracker where 15% of UK households experienced real difficulty putting together any kind of meals at the beginning of this year. Australia has similar figures dependent on location, primarily. It’s good to bring this to our attention.

Craig, you and your people do a good thing. Thank you. 🙏

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@ps1l0v3y0u

crikey and hells bells of St John you never said dome-shaped heads of ….anyone. (though perhaps in another timestream).

As you were.

And yes (edit) RTD likes massive buildups, flying things with pointy sharp bits, listing baddies, and computer or TV screens which judder about but slowly show important or final name of ….. Big Bad

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@blenkinsopthebrave of course, Molsdorf is her new nickname now.  😊

the theory of @juniperfish that Ruby is Horus deposited by Isis… is a very good one (apologies if Son & I mixed up our gods!) & those who paused on Ruby’s mum’s chin to be certain enough she’s human or human -looking, helps too. Admittedly, when I originally saw the first episode, perhaps because I’d just finished watching Whittaker’s run, the woman’s shoes, socks, & general shape, reminded me of WhitDoc… I couldn’t get that out of my head!

Or as others have suggested  – @ps1l0v3y0u  -is the hood hiding a dome shaped head as per POM?

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@ps1l0v3y0u

you mentioned the Vlinx….? Interesting. Yes, you’re right it looks a little …Osirian!

 

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@markkelly welcome to the forum! This is a fun, engaging place.

I absolutely had to rewatch Deep Blue Y & yep, you’re right, the Tardis groaned there. I also like the idea of more than one Tardis as there’s evidence of more timelines (ie 73 Yards) or the multiverse theme.

@ps1l0v3y0u I don’t know abt Mrs Flood either: I thought, as did a good, pedantic friend, that she is both Susan, and is Ruby’s birth mum and that R herself could be the eye of Horus? …..🤯

@vickymallard I was completely stumped on this villain too but if you head to the Activity thread you’ll see @craig has put a link to Pyramids of Mars with Tom Baker -it’s my first time watching this & it’s terrific. Naturally it’s a bit clunky & the relationship between the Doctor & SJ is a little different, but it’s properly suspenseful & Baker’s wonderful.

@mudlark apologies about the confusion re the jackal, the puppy & the fact the astronaut was equine (we really should’ve known this: gazing, or properly glaring at Son…)

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“So Set was killed by Horus, god of light…”

“The world is facing the greatest peril in its history. The forces being summoned into corporeal existence are more powerful and more dangerous than anything even I have encountered.”

We never saw PoM, so this is fun homework (is there any other kind?)

thanks Craig! -PuroandSon

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@mudlark very interesting.  🧐 All I could recognise was a ….fez.

Thane again….

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@winston it’s great to hear from you! Yes, we’re doing fine.

Sounds like your leg is very painful. At least you could watch some old Who, though: much of that beyond Tom Baker and some Peetwee I don’t remember but our boy watched all of the very first series & loved it. It’s very dark indeed.

Of the Specials I agree with @dentarthurdent that Wild Blue Yonder’s the best and eminently rewatchable. I think you’ll love it.

🥰 Puro.

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Yes, the cloaked figure may well be Old Ruby in a timey whimey way @scaryb !

interesting that in Rogue, Ruby was very nearly trapped & I wonder if this is signalling at least one possible future out of all the time streams or multiverses. Is time collapsing in certain timestreams? Are tiny decisions, the ones we regularly make every day, leading to an overt, disproportionate or changing structure of time as suggested by the loss of the Doctor in 73 Yards.

@blenkinsopthebrave @bunface @whohar

As for  Ruby’s carol, deep in her soul, perhaps it acts as a beacon to ensure she returns to this specific moment in time. The audience or director can focus on one of the two time signatures – compound duple (6/8) or simple triple (3/4) as Mr B has explained, or they can switch between the two.

This is significant as it is similar to how the Doctor remembers two different events or has 2 different memories of Ruby Road. If Ruby fights Sutehk she may have an implanted memory of this Christmas carol in order to locate those she loves in this timestream.

To amp up the beacon, the carol has a simple ostinato or repeating pattern in pitch and rhythm so that a repetition is like a code or signal continually ringing out, and cast across time like the ripples made from Maestro’s tuning fork.

The carol in compound duple is also interesting as the two Tardis’ compound the effects of Sutehk & his minions, acting as contagion across all time and space. Is this what happened to Finetime & the home planet where the creatures were set to destroy every living thing..

Witnessing the Doctor’s anger at himself for the loss of Chidozie is very revealing too, and I can’t imagine how he will struggle should wrath & destruction enter earth’s every corner. How alone he will feel.

Apologies for rambling -this got away from me! 🙏😀

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@mudlark @blenkinsopthebrave

Yes, it looks like the figure in the cloak is the same woman.

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@mudlark @pufferfish @whohar @bunface and calling those with knowledge of Horus … People have suggested Ruby is part of an altered reality. Has she been placed in different time streams by the Doctor to fight Sutehk?

And, as others noted, when Kate articulates her chrysalis theory, Ruby arrives at UNIT with her VHS. S Triad is the vessel for evil, 👿 but one can speculate Ruby’s a vessel for good:

If Ruby’s placed in various time streams, there’s strong symbolism of Ruby as peacemaker & healer across the sky. Horus is seen as restorative, both helper & healer (apologies if ALL of this has been said before!), significantly a helper to the god, Ra -hence Sun–day??

When Ra appeared at dawn he took the form of a falcon known thereafter as Horus of the Horizon. In losing his eye in battle it was magically restored. 😳

Beyond the theme of magic, though, to what extent has Egyptian mythology been drawn upon this season? Seemingly the dead astronaut in Wild Blue Yonder came from a civilisation with heads shaped like falcons. The No-Things as shapeshifters live through  replication & imitation -much like the Chuldur who are bird-like.

I wonder, then, how many humans can Sutehk …penetrate or replicate? And if there are 2 Tardis’ there’s a potential for unlimited Tardis’  summoned into being, accidentally or deliberately by memories & timestreams….

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Sutehk’s doghead brings us back to the Beatles singing “My dog he’s alive he’s not dead” in Devil’s chord.

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@pufferfish @juniperfish and Roam is from the B52s album Cosmic Thing… (also containing the brilliant Love Shack).

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