Dark Water

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@thekrynoidman

Your post in Fan Creativity was very funny.  The Master/Missy kissed the Doctor, but it was very clearly not reciprocated – the Doctor is traumatised after 😉 I thought it was funny at the time and more so in retrospect, there are traditionally many layers to the Master’s motivations – could as easily be him being ironically playful as suggesting a longterm crush on the Doctor – whichever way you want to read it.

I think this has been skilfully handled – dropping the name Missy into the mix early on meant that lots of people guessed it, giving 10 weeks for the internet to bubble a bit and get used to the idea. I also like the idea for the slightly contradictory reason that we get a female Big Bad who isn’t actually female ie we get the massive plus of Gomez playing the baddie without her actually being the uber-female stereotype. And in the process, very possibly outMastering all the previous portrayals except for Delgado. (Apart from the mischievousness of the casting, she is certainly 1 of the best choices out there for the role).

(btw – I’m with you on short skirts – but there’s always the option of a full length maxi dress – not very practical admittedly, but fine for a photoshoot!!!)

@thommck Really pleased to hear how your 10yo reacted

[Arbutus @arbutus]

Well. The episode itself was great, beautiful roller coaster of intensity and laughter, with the shocker of Danny’s death right at the beginning setting the tone. After I caught my breath, it did occur to me that those who thought Clara would die and Danny and the Doctor would have to rescue her almost had it right! I was actually engaged enough in events that I forgot about the Cybermen until they showed up, which was nice.

I’m pleased that I was right about a few things (Danny being a good guy, Missy being a Time Lord). Well done to those who had suggested a Halloween connection, and that connection was nicely done, with the skeletons in their chambers and then watching them come to life.

My only disappointment here was the big reveal at the end, because it had been speculated on from the start. Perhaps Moffat had intended a YANA-like trick, but enough people caught on that it wasn’t really a surprise. It deprived me of an OMG moment at the end. But not the hugest of disappointments, given how well it was all done.

I did love Missy pretending to be an android at the start, and the kiss!!! Both the Doctor’s reaction to it and the in-joke itself were brilliant. And the Doctor asking “Doctor Who?”

We still don’t know how Clara fits in to Missy’s plan. Or how the Mistress/Master escaped from Gallifrey. So lots more still to be revealed. Off to the read your comments!   🙂

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

So, if heaven/the nethersphere is not real, then what is it? The Master’s TARDIS, with an outer shell of St Paul’s cathederal.

[BESD1 @besd1]

Sorry if this has been mentioned already, especially as it may be of no moment whatsoever but:

Who is Seb?

We only ever see him in the nethersphere so this means either he’s dead (but not cyberised as he still seems to have emotions, albeit in a moderately sociopathic way) or  he’s a computer programme or he’s alien/potentially time lord (almost certainly not the latter). Have their been any clues as to his identity or provenance?

 

As for the episode itself, I loved this, right up their with the best of Doctor Who. I am slightly disappointed that Missy turns out to be the Master – not because I don’t love a Master story, and who else could do the job better than the marvelous Michelle, but rather because I had hoped for a reprise of an old favourite such as the Rani. More later once I’ve had a chance to read all the theorising and counter argument below.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

No one’s mentioned (or have I missed it?) that these are different cybermen from previous ones. These are Missy’s “cybermen from cyberspace”. They appear to be the consciousness of the (recently?) deceased, without emotions (choices again – delete your own emotions (and become a cyberman)/live (your death) with the pain of cremation/dissection/slow putrefaction).

The original Cybermen were augmented humans. They’ve gradually evolved as a concept, and particularly since 2005, to being something more robotic, but incorporating human parts, but not usually skeletons, and they usually have to be living. There’s no saying what weapons/attributes these new ones have. And where do the dead bodies come in?

Will we see a cyberised Soldier Blue and Gretchen?

I loved the gradual reveal – the eye motif, the shout out to Tomb of the Cybermen, Missy’s comment about the skeletons being maintained in position by an exo-skeleton which is invisible because of the liquid, followed by Dr Chang putting his arm in the Dark Water. And the doors (as the Doctor says “I’m missing something obvious”!). Dr Skarosas, discoverer of the white noise message, is also a cyberman. And the Invasion riff as they walk down the steps of St Paul’s was great.

I can’t help feeling we’ve been misdirected though. As other people have said it would have been great not to have known it was the cybermen, but even a spoilerphobe like me couldn’t avoid it. They were among the first official images released and they’ve been all over the place in the last few weeks. Likewise the “Who is Missy” question. So what are we not seeing? 😈

I agree with @blenkinsopthebrave @phileasf and others that the nethersphere is not real. And I suspect they’ll drop a line next week to suggest that post death consciousness-still-attached-to-corporeal-body thing (probably) isn’t either (that’s just too horrific a concept!). There’s been lots of refs in this series to knowing what’s real – the Doctor’s insistence about Robin Hood not being real is paralleled in this story. He was wrong about Robin though.

We’ve also had mysterious behind the scenes machinations, feelings of being watched (which are now shown to be justified). And now dream inducing patches. People have mentioned Danny’s and Clara’s outfits, but what about the Doctor’s? Why does he wear the black sparkly jumper sometimes…? (Is the black jumper/white shirt this season’s red/blue bow tie, with jacket/no jacket? Am I overthinking this?!!)

What price is Clara willing to pay for Danny’s life? (Agree with @pedant – her sacrifice is going to be central. But maybe not resolved till the Xmas special).

Oh, and that line that @juniperfish highlighted – “do you think I care so little for you…” Just beautiful. And should completely put paid to any doubts that Capaldi’s version is very much the Doctor (even if you missed all the other “caring” bits in previous episodes)

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@blenkinsopthebrave

So, if heaven/the nethersphere is not real, then what is it? The Master’s TARDIS, with an outer shell of St Paul’s cathederal.

That’s one of the things I was wondering about, but with so many other things to think about, hadn’t got round to yet!

Going back to Robots of Sherwood (again) – the robots’ base seemed to be imposed on, or hidden by, the original castle. Could be a similar thing happening here?

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@scaryb

It is probably a perception filter, just like the one making everyone believe there was a second floor to the house in “The Lodger”.

So, next week the dastardly Master (and I am still holding out hope for the second part of my original prediction–that at the end of that episode, perhaps after a tremendous battle with the Doctor, Missy will be forced to re-generate into…a male actor who will play the Master in series 9–even though I think Michelle Gomez is doing a spiffing job!) and…what was I saying?

Oh yes, so next week the dastardly Master will escape in his/her TARDIS, the perception filter will disengage and St Paul’s will still be there. A good thing too.

[PaperMoon @papermoon]

Hi

I really liked the episode and it will be interesting to see how it unfolds in the second part.

Like some of the posters above, I too got a sense that those people, including Danny, weren’t dead. There’s just something odd about the dead with technology, even with Steve Jobs there.

When Clara is checking her post-it notes at the beginning before she calls Danny, I felt that she was making sure she had gotten all the bits of information she needed before she made the call. She picks up the ‘say it’ note as if it’s the final part of whatever it is that needs to be done and then calls Danny. Also, the way she said ‘I love you’ to Danny is strange, again, a point other posters have noted. She has told him this before, so it’s not a nervous first-time, ‘ok, I’m going to say it’ , it is, instead, very deliberately said. I’m in two minds as to whether this is the final piece of the puzzle Clara is putting together, or something else.

I’m not sure how much I really think of this theory as viable, but I’ll throw it in here anyway. What if the people are in some way connected to some kind of super-computer and certain parts of their memories are being extracted and presented as reality. If there are children there that would explain some of the more fairytale like stories, a Skovox Blitzer from the mind of a soldier, and so on.

Michelle Gomez is great as Mistress/Master. I do wonder though, if the St Paul’s in this episode is also possibly an unreal place. Whilst it was amusing to have Missy comment about Scotsmen and football matches, the people there were rather oddly reassured by a woman in Edwardian dress making the comment.

[newtunicorn @workb]

A very fun and cool episode although I did find it strange that the Master and the Doctor had been strongly rumoured to be siblings but Missy goes ahead and kisses him.

[WhoGirl @whogirl]

Well, what to say that hasn’t already been said! Very much enjoyed this episode, and like a lot of people was left saying: “Nooo! I need to see the next one NOW!” Enjoyed the jokes that broke the tension: Angry Scottish people and football, superb. And the little reference to PC in ‘The Thick of It’, excellent.

As soon as Doctor Chang put his arm in the x-ray water, my brain remembered the trailer and I was shouting at my TV that they were Cybermen in the tanks. Completely didn’t work out that Missy was short for Mistress, AKA Master. Brilliant. Originally I’d hoped she’d be a new character but the reveal of being The Master had greater effect. I know there’s a lot of talk that Time Lords should stay the same sex but I think she can get away with it. Michelle Gomez is a fantastic actress, and she does slightly unhinged very well (Sue White in the brilliant ‘Green Wing’- look it up if you haven’t seen it, she does crazy in that as well!)
Very much looking forward to the finale! 😀

[lisa @lisa]

@bleninsopthebrave — I saw that reflection in the ipad too- Danny will want to speak to that boy!
Also -I agree with you that the nethersphere isn’t a real place- the clues about ipads and steve jobs-
the fact that this nethersphere looks like internet circuitry etc. but the people in it are told to
perceive it as their afterlife -even the dream patches are a clue about the perception of reality
Plus Timelord technology would definitely have that kind of sophistication

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

Have just re-watched Michelle Gomez reveal who she is again, I am revising my idea of a couple of posts above. On reflection, a regeneration into a male Master would only have worked if it came at the very end of the next episode and the reveal…omg, the Master!!…came at that point. But now that it has been revealed, there does not seem to be a point to changing the actor. And…Michelle Gomez is just too brilliant!

On another point, Seb is perhaps the most horrible character in the episode. While appearing to be sympathetic to Danny, he is, in reality, playing on Danny’s emotions and using emotional blackmail in the most egregious way to get Danny to do what Seb and the Master wants. I look forward to him getting his comeuppance!

[newtunicorn @workb]

Agree ^ Seb is a cleverly disgused villain

[SarahJO @sarahjo]

Hi – having been a fan since Jon P and a huge fan of Peter I have to say I have been hugely disappointed with the amount of airtime Clara gets. I don’t understand with such a huge bonus having PC in the role he appears to be second fiddle in a first rate show.

[Apopheniac @apopheniac]

Hello @sarahjo – please do introduce yourself in the On The Sofa thread.   I did so myself when I joined, and found people here quite likeable in their responses.  You can go into more detail about your dislike of the Clara character, as well as your viewing history of DW, over there.

Do you have specific episode-related issues about Clara in Dark Water?  I agree with you that it is a huge bonus having Peter Capaldi as The Doctor – he has been a  revelation, a massive change from recent casting, but he is also incorporating so much of so many previous Doctors — but I think Claras character is key to this current series.  The storybook elements, the focus on eyes and faces, what can be seen (or not seen except from the corner of ones eyes), and the Danny character is introducing a kind of storybook boyfriend (unerringly supportive but with his own dark past), it all seems that this series really is all about the companion.

We know so much about The Doctor, but we have also been reminded of his insecurities (“Am I a good man?”).  It would be interesting to debate with you about your statement that PC is “playing second fiddle” somewhere other than a discussion about this particular ep.

[lisa @lisa]

Does anyone still think Missy was the woman in the shop because I don’t –
Also- I am convinced that the Master is using the timelord matrix technology after re-watching
and to me this means that he might be portraying himself as a female dopple ganger – so why
choose that particular version ? I wonder if it could be cause he always had a ‘thing’ for
the Doctor ?? hm ?

[Arbutus @arbutus]

@serahni   I agree about the pace of this story, I frequently feel that 45 minutes is too short. Also, I agree that while I wasn’t keen on Missy as the Master, partly because it had been signposted so egregiously, at least it was a believable outcome, and I would have been more upset had she turned out to be the Rani, for instance.

@lisa   There are still 45 minutes of story remaining. I’m assuming that we will be told how the Master escaped.

@mudlark  –  Excellent. We have all next week to talk about the various versions of the Orpheus story, it will give us something interesting to do around midweek when we’ve run out of theories.

@jimbomcmaster   (Do you become Jimbo McMistress now?) As someone who much prefers expressing complicated thoughts in writing rather than in a conversation (and edits almost everything, including these posts), I did not find the post-it notes confusing at all. Very important conversation. She didn’t want to leave anything out.

@spider     Good thought. I had thought the “3 months” meant the time she had spent in the TARDIS without telling Danny, but it could be pregnancy. Also, I think Jimbo is right that Orson must be descended from Clara, since Danny clearly hasn’t been time traveling, and Orson specifically mentioned a time traveling grandparent.

@thommck   Your ten-year-old is wise. Object, absorb, accept, move on. I have done the same! And @spider’s “5 stages of grief” were as much fun as the episode itself. Brilliant, actually.

 

 

[Apopheniac @apopheniac]

Hello @phileasf

I also suspect much of what Danny and, presumably, other dead people are being told is a lie, intended to persuade them to allow their personalities to be deleted.

Your post is one of the reasons why I think this site is so wonderful.  Deeply thoughtful, contextual (bringing in PK Dicks “Ubik” and also SMs “Coupling” is Master-ful, sorry for the pun), and detailed.  The call-back to Donna in The Library with the abrupt scene-cuts is also a good call.  That camera-turn in the beginning of Dark Water really grated on me — unless it was deliberate.  None of it is real, except in Claras mind.

I think I posted a while ago that I thought Clara was pregnant.  In the execrable Moon ep, she looked too shocked at thinking about future generations.  Like it finally hit her that her children would have to live with the world that was left by her own actions.

@scaryb, those phone calls are related, Im sure of it.  The two in this ep are obviously linked thematically, but you reminded me of Clara Primes original contact with The Doctor in Bells of SJ.  We have been showered with eyes, and faces, and phone calls … what links these for grand theories about the finale?

I for one will be disappointed if “technology wins the day”.  Its been set up with the Steve Jobs line in this ep and the Ipad references with Missy.  Its also been set up for “true love wins the day” which could be good for the kiddies but not up to SMs standard I dont think.  It should be deeper.

Ill take a punt and say that past mistakes cant be corrected – except messily.  That Afghani boy will always die because Danny did what he did in the heat of war.  Danny will always die because Missy threw a car in his path.  Clara will always die because she went too far in demanding of The Doctor that he change history just for her love-life.

Or … there might be a more uplifting theme.  People who die, even after death, still have the agency to be “better”.  Its not over when you die.  You can still choose not to “Delete”, because feeling emotions is part and parcel of the human existence.  Even after death.

Erm, Im going for the “emotions are good” angle, after having wrote that.  Past mistakes cant be corrected – but people can still have love even after making mistakes and seeing loved ones making mistakes.

Oh, and the Cybermen are totally incidental to the two-parters conclusion.  Just my suspicion.  Except as a mirror of “no-emotion” to the ultimate theme.

[beancounter @beancounter]

“Do you think I care for you so little that betraying me would make a difference?”

I beleive physiologist would regard this statement as evidence of a co-dependent relationship. 🙂

But really, I think it was obvious before that comment that he cares about Clara a lot, and would forgive her human failings.

In any case, I didn’t expect the Master, as I thought he had been killed in a previous episode. Frankly, he’s more entertaining in this current form.

Cyber men..[sigh], they’re not really my favorite villains, and I think they’re re- used more than the Dalek’s. (at least it seems that way)

What confuses me, is that they have people’s bodies, in addition to their minds. I  thought that spherical machine could only capture a person’s thoughts/soul.

 

[Miapatrick @miapatrick]

@Apopheniac- yes, ‘twas me and thank you- after being so very wrong about Missy (although she could still, in theory, be the papal mainframe, I’m stepping back from that theory) I’d love it if this hunch was true. The post it notes, her attitude seemed so important, I just think it has to mean something more than ‘what she was doing when he died.’ Anyway, I agree, something timey-wimey with ‘I love you’. @janetteB- I thought the grief was handled amazingly well. The sullen, selfish resentment. My words at the time (I was pretty drunk at the time though) were ‘she’s being the doctor’ when she said it was boring. Even Eleven telling River she embarrassed him because she upset him. There was something wrong here
Back to @Apopheniac- yes, full agreement. I think, personally, she is ringing him thinking he’s going to die whatever she does. Or that there is only a small chance he could be saved. @Mudlark- yup. I just feel the conversation is a bit of a bluff or misdirection. It feels very Moffat.
@PhileasF- are you also a coupling fan? Do you remember The One with the French accent and the Australian bar, and the Spiderman episode?
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[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@arbutus, @lisa

I’m not sure we will be told how the Master got away last time, or indeed, whether we need to be told.

As @phileasf so wisely said:

Some are wondering how the Master got away from the time bubble in which Rassilon and co are imprisoned. But there’s a long tradition of the Master escaping from certain death with no explanation, and I suspect that tradition will be honoured in this case too. Once we actually saw him get ‘burnt to a crisp’, as the Doctor put it, and when he was later seen to be all right he didn’t explain why, even when it was pointed out that he was last seen being burnt to a crisp. Like the Doctor, he just always gets away.

Moffat rarely bothers to take the time to explain away stuff like that, and probably correctly so–because, at the end of the day, most people are willing to accept it. In fact, sometimes he even makes fun of not explaining what happened (a la, how did Sherlock survive the fall from the hospital?)

[BadWulf @badwulf]

@blenkinsopthebrave Moffat rarely bothers to take the time to explain away stuff like that, and probably correctly so–because, at the end of the day, most people are willing to accept it.

And it would ruin some enjoyable bonkers theorising!

[Arbutus @arbutus]

@whoville    You’d think that by now he’d be relieved it’s just the Master again       No kidding!

@thekrynoidman   To me it just doesn’t seem like something any of the other incarnations of The Master would ever do.   I disagree, I think the Simm Master would have done it. In fact, even as a man, I can imagine his Master having done it!  🙂   (And in response to your refusal to put on a dress: my teenage son, who plays basketball, will not wear his basketball uniform without an undershirt to cover his armpits. Apparently, some things just go too far!)

@purofilion    I also loved The Doctor’s unabashed and unconditional love for ‘Clara, my Clara’.    Yes. When she asked him, “Why are you helping me?” so many possible answers flitted through my mind. What he came out with surpassed them all in excellence! I also really liked the line “Clara, I’m terribly sorry, but I’m exactly what you deserve.”  (And your whole post was lovely, BTW!)

@apopheniac   And I just noticed in the post-its that one is labelled “Truth” but thats not the one Clara pulls.  Instead she grabs “Just SAY it”.    I thought that she wanted to start with the depth of her love for him, in hopes that it would help mitigate some of the difficult things she had to say.

@phileasf     Love your theorizing! You are right about the Master’s long history of survival without explanation. However, I suspect that Moffat will give us an explanation, because he seems to be inclined that way. He usually tries to tie up his loose ends (even when the tying is brief or doesn’t convince everyone!). @blenkinsopthebrave, part of my assumption is based on the feeling that it would be very, very unlikely that the Doctor wouldn’t ask, “If you are the Master, how/when did you escape Gallifrey, what happened to Rassilon,” etc. etc. But we shall see, I guess. In any case, the question doesn’t bother me, because I know there could easily be an explanation.

And by the way, would a perception filter mean that there isn’t really a dome on St. Paul’s?   🙂

@scaryb   I take your point about getting people used to the idea of a female Master ahead of time. I would have preferred a bigger surprise, but I suppose this way helps mute the internet rage somewhat.

@workb   Didn’t Mickey say to Ten, “I thought maybe he was your evil twin” or something like that? And the Doctor blew the idea off as ridiculous?

@apopheniac   My intellect agrees that some mistakes cannot be fixed (such as the death of the boy), and that this is an important lesson. However, it seems much too dark a lesson for Doctor Who! Because, of course, it’s equally true that some mistakes can be fixed; and although death isn’t usually one of those, this is fantasy, so you never know. So I’m inclined to go with @blenkinsopthebrave‘s prediction that “they will all live happily ever after”.  (Because I’m just optimistic like that!)

 

[Rob @rob]

Keep going all, fantastic ideas being floated into the ether

Missy to the Doctor “I’m the one you left behind” Now there’s a story arc in itself 🙂

The “I love you” response by Danny a last attempt to save Clara from risking herself to come and get him. Dead and still looking out for her

Also, 3W backwards and forwards We (are the) www ????

So the Nethersphere is both real and unreal as in consciousness able to switched off by a flick of a switch

Things that Clara has seen that are not real, in a dream state Robin Hood? Maybr the whole series ala Dallas lmao sorry all!!!!

 

 

[Spider @spider]

@arbutus  Wow, thank you *blushes* (and of course to others who commented on my journey to acceptance rambling daftness, glad you enjoyed it!). I hadn’t intended to do that, it kind of just happened as I was writing my post about initially being annoyed about Missy/Master and that 5 stages of grief somehow just clicked.

I’ve gone back now and watched the Time Of The Doctor and also The End Of Time and I’m now thinking that where this series is going is ‘balance’. The Time Lords gave the Doctor a new set of regenerations, but to keep the balance with the universe they have to give the Master the same. They are the only two survivors of the time war (as said in End Of Time).

Other thing is about ‘where did i get this face from.’ I am still hoping this will be addressed. One of RTD comments about John Frobisher in the Torchwood Children of Earth was that he thought this was possibly  a descendant of Roman time Caeciluis and that him doing what he had to do  was balance/closure for the whole ‘save someone who should have died’ – i.e. future consequences. I wonder if Missy is the one who is going to break it to him about this balance!

And i’d just like this opportunity to say this season is the first time I’ve ever participated in a forum like this for Doctor Who and I have loved it! You are all brilliant. So many bonkers theory’s, so much brilliant discussion, I am now kicking myself for never doing this before.

(\(\;;/)/)

 

 

 

 

 

[JimboMcMaster @jimbomcmaster]

@Arbutus – Oh I’m the same re writing complicated thoughts versus speaking. Really what I was referring to was what prompted the conversation. It seemed like the point of the scene was what Clara had to say, but then, no, instead it was scene about Danny’s death. It could have been both, but it seems too coincidental to me. And yes, maybe I should be JaneBoMcMissy, now.

[The Beast @glenisterm]

I’ll chalk it up to grief, and emotions clouding thinking, but Clara’s attempt at blackmail seemed a bit silly.

First of all, why did she need all 7 keys?  If the Doctor is locked outside of the Tardis without a key, then she only needs at most 3 to make her point (destroy one to get attention and show she is serious, destroy the second on first refusal, and then the last).

Then there is the click fingers problem, which she may or may not be aware of.

Since it seemed possible in the Sarah Jane Adventures to build a key from memory, then theoretically the Doctor could always make a new one somehow.

What was her plan if she did destroy all the keys?  That she couldn’t live without Danny and throw herself into the lava?  I assume she just presumed she wouldn’t have to go that far, but it was a silly place to be stuck in (not to mention that being that close to actual lava would probably cause you to ignite).

I’m curious how Missy was able to monitor the Doctor so easily without him knowing (apparently).  Which brings to mind, where is the Master’s Tardis, and in what form?

Regarding the Cybermen, I think recent corpses are being used, and their brains kept alive (tanks), and given a virtual reality.  If they select to delete their emotions, then they can be converted to Cybermen.  So this wouldn’t be a case of capturing souls or consciousness.  I wonder why they needed or wanted that android from the first episode, unless it was for its skills with working with bodies.

[Anonymous @]

@arbutus Thank you -too kind. I wasn’t bonkerising at all just relaying my thoughts, as they came, about the superb acting and the tom foolery in the ‘hideous play’ of life and death. For to me it was a play.  Indeed, we were all watching it and for once, boy Ilion and I said: “I can’t figure this out. Let’s just agree to enjoy it?”

And so we did but my dreams thru the night were not pleasant! I was actually running thru forests, chased by metal and I was carrying many phones….Hell (I mean, Hades), Moffat can influence my dreams! Not good. Not good at all.

I eventually assumed that the phone call at the start had serious and heavy significance. I believe this was done later- or’ before’ -after Danny dies and the costumes may prove this next week. As for the consciousness of different people uploaded, as mentioned above, this suggests the odd story about a Moon Dragon or a Skovox Blitzer entering our, the ‘watcher’s minds’. @scaryb I recall this too! That there were times during this season where The Doctor was wearing his jumper or T-Shirt -this needs explaining (stamping feet!)

@blenkinsopthebrave cheers to you with your winning theory! and all others who stuck bravely to Master/Missy.

@mudlark  The archaeologist saves the day  -the explanation you gave was dead on (sorry no pun intended and all that). No way could Missy have done it….

@spider brilliant: stages of grief.  My boy read that and loved it.

@phileasf  well said: the Dr is explained, but the Master, traditionally, is not.

I loved the kiss -by then I figured, the Master: ‘has to be’. The mad kiss from Hell gave proof to thought.

Kindest, puro (back for a 2nd watch)

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@glenisterm

why did she need all 7 keys?

The stage play/Big Finish Audio Adventure: Seven Keys to Doomsday.

Yes, Steven Moffat’s One Of Us. 😉

[Apopheniac @apopheniac]

@glenisterm – yeah, Im not really au fait with that whole “blackmail” scene.  But as we subsequently learnt, it was Claras dream state so the fact it doesnt make a whole lot of sense can be laid at the door of “whose dreams make all that much sense anyway?”.

Ive said before I think this series is suitable for a SJA reboot (ducking potential brickbats when I did that) so I agree, that is a debate topic.  The monsters have generally been SJA-stylee and the concepts could be argued are suitable for the tweenies.  But they (the concepts) can also be argued that they are much deeper and richer – and scarier – than that.

Lots of fairytale influences = kind of like CBBC.  But with adult overtones = what Doctor Who always was about.  Something for the whole family.

 

[Spider @spider]

@purofilion re 5 stages of grief

My boy read that and loved it.

Well now. I cannot think of a higher compliment! That hit me right in the feels 😀

(\(\;;/)/)

[Apopheniac @apopheniac]

@phileasf and @mudlark

You two seem to be very knowledgeable about the whole of Doctor Who history.

Im re-watching The Mind Robber this evening and I thought I saw some parallels with this series, and its arc and details.  Obviously, that there is a (potential) dream world, and that people see what they want to see / what they expect to see.  Of course, there is “a Master” controlling all of it in both cases, who is watching events via TV screens (the Ipads of their time).  The male companion “dies” and becomes someone else (an acting availability problem with the original).  Not to mention the fairytale story elements in both.

Do either of you see similar parallels?  Im quite interested to hear your feedback.  (and everyone else here of course.  Youre all much more erudite than I am!)

[Arbutus @arbutus]

@purofilion    Well, yes. That is how I generally watch. My first viewing is very much an emotional one (which is probably why I rarely dislike an episode!). On rewatch I can see more twists/possibilities/flaws, and if I am formulating theories, it’s usually then that I do it.

@glenisterm @apopheniac    Aside from giving me the strong sense that Danny’s death had driven Clara pretty much insane, that blackmail scene also gave us a nice red herring in the trailer!

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@purofilion

Aw, shucks! (But in reality, there were many finer minds that arrived at the same conclusion)

@The Beast (aka @glenisterm)

I think we spent most of the episode inside the Master’s TARDIS–the nethersphere on the inside, St Paul’s on the outside.

As for next week (can it be a whole week?) I have no idea what Moffat will pull off. The conclusion (the Doctor will triumph, the Master will escape, and love will save the day) is easy to predict, but the detail of how we get there…

[macphisto96 @macphisto96]

Has anyone brought up the hand coming out of the Gallifrey Falls painting in Day of the Doctor?  That scene also struck me as odd because Clara was out of focus, we were on her left hand side, and the hand was clearly a right hand.  Wonder if Missy had trapped herself in the Gallifrey Falls painting during the fall of Arcadia and escaped when the Doctors did, stealing Time Lord tech that the Black Archive had acquired.

[Apopheniac @apopheniac]

@ everyone -Im re-watching The Mind Robber tonight, and just came across this gold Zoe quote:

You see, they dont want us to find a way out, only a way in.

Im probably doing too much of my namesake but I still think that there are stellar comparisons between The Mind Robber and the entirety of this Peter Capaldi series.  Its all been about the way in.  How to get Clara (and The Doctor) into the Nethersphere, and next to Missy (The Master).  Clara adores fairytales (similar to Amy loving the Romans via her schoolbook).  Clara wanted to meet Robin Hood.  The Big Bad of her school was a Sarah Jane Adventures monster (she must have watched one or two of those programmes).  Clara meets and falls in love with a “damaged” soldier boy.  (Thats a bit icky because a female character trying to “repair” a “damaged” male character is a bit retro to say the least).

But, Danny is The Way In.  To the Nethersphere.  So Missy has been monitoring Clara, trying to get her in.  Via Danny.  Could Missy be responsible for the death of the Afghani boy that Danny still tears up when he remembers?

And what does that mean to Danny Pink’s history, that he didn’t actually cause a child’s death.  I think that is what we will see in the finale.  Time being re-written.  What/who does Danny Pink become, when that awful death is no longer on his conscience?  How does that change his interactions with Clara – and her insistence on Danny NOT saying “I love you” in either of their two telephone calls?

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@beancounter

I beleive physiologist would regard this statement as evidence of a co-dependent relationship. 

I’m pretty sure a physiologist would say “Oh God! Mad girl! Where’s a psychologist?”

And the psychologist would say “Duuuude. Unconditional love! Didn’t think anyone did that any more. He must be an alien.”

 

[PhileasF @phileasf]

@miapatrick – Yes, I’m also a Coupling fan. I found it after watching Blink and thinking it was one of the best pieces of TV I’d ever seen. I was aware of Steven Moffat already, from watching a few episodes of Press Gang when it was new, and (very) occasionally seeing him post in the old rec.arts.drwho newsgroup, but I hadn’t seen much of his stuff.

Actually, it’s years since I last watched Coupling. I’m less than half way through my rewatch, and I don’t recall the episodes you mention. (Checks episode guide.) But at my current rate I’ll probably see the French accent episode tonight.

I had very vivid memories of this show, and yet now that I’m rewatching it I’ve realised I only vividly remembered about five episodes, most of which I’ve already seen in my rewatch. So it’s been a lot of fun to see so many episodes that are practically new to me.

[PhileasF @phileasf]

@apopheniac – Yes, some of what we’ve seen this year brought The Mind Robber to mind. Meeting Robin Hood, for instance, and the mythic and fairytale elements that have made the season seem less real than usual. For a while I vaguely entertained the idea that ‘Missy’ might be short for ‘Mistress of the Land of Fiction’, but then decided that Moffat probably wouldn’t set a whole season in the Land of Fiction, due to the likely audience outrage. One episode yes, a whole season probably not.

I hadn’t noticed the other parallels you mention, like the apparent death of Jamie, and the Master (of the Land of Fiction) watching the Doctor’s adventures on TV, but now that you mention them I can see there are clearly similarities. I guess Moffat has been influenced by the Mind Robber and consciously or unconsciously incorporated some of its best ideas into this story.

[lisa @lisa]

I’m hoping that they will have more about Galifrey and the pocket universe in part 2- this is because I am having a hard time wrapping my head around how the Master/Missy is back again unless its all inside this Timelord Matrix – a bit like the Bells of St.John where they downloaded people
I think we will not get all the answers next time because Missy Gomez is doing such a great job that I believe she will be hanging around into the next series and SM will want to tease us with her story arc for sometime

Has anyone else thought that doctor Skarosa could be Davros ?

also- I’ve been wondering about how many regenerations the master has had- does anyone know? maybe that’s why he downloaded himself into the matrix- he might have run out of regenerations and the Timelords don’t want to give him a new cycle

[lisa @lisa]

I forgot to complete my thought on the post above lol !
Regarding Dr Skarosa being Davros- didn’t we think at the beginning of the season that we
heard the voice of a Dalek ? plus Davros also liked to do conversions between different ‘beings’

[TheDoctorsOtter @thedoctorsotter]

Just now watched the episode. I thought it was really great, hope the second part delivers even more.

Sad that Danny died, sort of hope he somehow comes back but I would also like it maybe even better if he didn’t because it would be more like a real world experience and not a sort of unfair experience with him coming back and Clara getting what she wants, because as we know people don’t come back from the dead just because we want them too.

Cybermen seem much more serious and scary to me this time, which is good. In previous episodes, nuWho episodes at least, Cybermen have not seemed as seriously bad to me.

Missy being the Master turned out to be true, which is exciting. Was pretty sure of this as soon as she made the Doctor feel her chest and her hearts just by seeing the Doctors reaction.

Definitely think Danny purposely made Clara disconnect because he didn’t want her to do something to kill herself so she could be with him. If Danny chooses “Delete” I would be very surprised and sad. I like Danny and hope nothing worse happens to his character, I mean the guy already died don’t let him become a Cyberman too.

Overall I thought it was a very good episode and I cannot wait till next week!

 

[Anonymous @]

“Do you think I care so little for you that you betraying me would make a difference?”

As a Christian (don’t flame me!) that sentence blew everything else out of the water. Peter Capaldi’s delivery was perfect, including the quick rebuttal of any sort of emotional response (“. . . that thing with your eyes . . . how do you even do that?”). He is a great doctor and Jenna Colman is his acting equal imo. Her grief was entirely believable and – if she really is leaving – I hope her career goes from strength to strength.

I don’t recall seeing Michelle Gomez in anything before but both she and Chris Addison brought a quirkiness to their parts that was original and refreshing. Missy’s rapid changes of tone and inflection gave her just that quality of being unhinged that John Simm also brought to the part when he was Harold Saxon.(I liked John Simm’s Master but thought he was required to go too far over the top in his final episodes.)

I have no problem with a female ‘Master’ , it’s just a pity that the title is so linked to a specific gender – ‘The Mistress’ doesn’t sound right at all!

One small gripe. I’ve seen complaints elsewhere from people who have recently been bereaved who found it upsetting to think of the dead being still linked to their bodies and suffering when being cremated etc. and I can sympathize with their feelings. I remember after losing someone close, having to leave the room at a friend’s home where we were watching ‘Madame Bovary’ and there was a deathbed scene. But of course I didn’t berate Flaubert for writing it or the BBC for putting it on screen. As adults we have to come to terms with our grief and with reminders of it.

But . . . Dr Who is still a programme which children watch and I keep thinking of HTPBDET* finding solace in watching the programme when he was a child and grieving for the death of his little brother. He wouldn’t have found much comfort this week.

My friend disagrees with me though and says it has moved away from being a children’s programme now. At any rate I hope next week it all turns out to be one of Missy’s ‘fibettes’.

*Although I have only just started posting, mainly due to technological incapacity on my part, I have been lurking since the forum began and read all the blogs written by the late (and missed) HTPBDET.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 8 months ago by  Craig. Reason: Fixed formatting

[Anonymous @]

Oh heck! What are all those strange typographical marks in my post all about?

Technological incapacity, see.

[RobertDaller @robertdaller]

I’m not sure how I feel about this episode yet, (I’m assuming I can post spoilers here, if not an admin can remove them and correct me)

So obviously… spoilers ahead
While the episode was very well thought out, the idea that the dead are conscious not only makes no logical sense, but also insults anyone who cremated their loved ones.

For instance, HOW could the dead FEEL if their nerves are dead and no longer connected to their brain? This had better be fake, and i’m willing to bet it is.
Anyway… continuing on.

The revelation of the Cybermen was EPIC (Though I had read of their appearance, it still excited me to see them back as a main antagonist, a ‘real threat’ so to speak)

I’m really holding out on Danny coming back to life, in whatever crazy way. (I mean come on, Rory came back to life how many times? Moffat OWES this to the character)

I liked how Clara acted, and the 12th Doctor’s line, ‘go to he**’ seriously scared me, (I thought he was telling Clara to… y’know)

Now on to what is arguably the biggest revelation this episode, Missy

I told myself I probably wouldn’t watch Doctor Who if this happened, but i’m going to give this the benefit of the doubt for now.

I see why Moffat did it, (It’s not something I would have EVER done, but i’ll live)
But my main problem, is Missy kissing the Doctor, it’s not even because of how…well… weird it is, it’s because it probably means that all of the Master’s humor, will be directed at ‘Oh i’m a woman, so i’m gonna flirt with the Doctor now.’

Or simply… ‘Oh i’m a woman now’
So yeah…
I feel as though this is really gonna cheapen the character, but to be honest I think my subconscious has kinda suspected this for a while, but i’ve been in denial to an extent.

And it’s starting to seem more and more like EVERY SEASON of Modern Doctor Who has to focus on the Time Lords/Daleks in some way shape or form.

I mean the Crack’s Riversong the Silence and Trenzalore were all bi-products of them in a way.
Not that I have a problem with that, to me the Time War is the best story to ever come out of Doctor Who anyway.

Long story short, this episode has a lot of ups and downs to me, despite it being a ‘she’ i’m excited to see The Master back, and hope for a very engaging story next episode, as I refuse to state my final opinion on the story until I have seen the next episode, and I really wanna know what Clara’s role to play is in this story…

[PhileasF @phileasf]

I’ve been looking at Clara’s bookcase. Saw something odd, a ‘Body Swap Ticket’ (the preceding word is illegible… MIxxxSCAPE?

Presumably this is a ticket for a recreational body swapping experience.

Here’s a screen shot:

I’ve also delved into Clara’s Milton book. It’s hard to be sure, but I believe it’s a biography by Anna Beer, full title Milton: Poet, Pamphleteer and Patriot. Clara’s appears to be the Bloomsbury edition, first published in 2008. ISBN 074759628X / 9780747596288. I’m basing this on the assumption that the lettering and image on the spine resemble the book’s cover, which is easy to find on the web. (The spine, not so much.)

[Juniperfish @juniperfish]

@Margaret-Blaine Nice to see a mention of @htpbdet

I too think of him, and wonder what he would have made of the new series. He was a Clara fan but not a Smith fan. I think he’d have enjoyed Capaldi’s Doctor. I raise a glass to him – what a lovely man.

@phileasf  It’s obviously worth re-watching that post-it note scene with the pause button for those of us who enjoy background clues. I do like very much that, in both Sherlock and Doctor Who, TPTB are aware of the clue hunters and set design for them, for fun, even if a fair amount of clues under the Moff turn out to be red herrings <she says fishily>.

[BadWulf @badwulf]

@phileasf I’ve been looking at Clara’s bookcase. Saw something odd, a ‘Body Swap Ticket’ (the preceding word is illegible… MIxxxSCAPE?

Presumably this is a ticket for a recreational body swapping experience.

I believe it is for a “Hyperscape Body Swap Ticket”:

(From the 2013 Prom)

[Anonymous @]

Did Seb ever mention his last name?  He seems to be far more manipulative than Missy/Master. I’m guessing that he is Dr Skarosa.

 

I can’t wait until next week but hate that it also the end of the season.

 

 

 

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@phileasf Thanks for the screengrabs. Very interesting!

@Margaret-Blaine Don’t let the odd post-scramble put you off posting. It happens occasionally, don’t know why. (Welcome to the dark (water) side 😉 )

@jack Re Dr Sarkosa – he would appear to be dead and cyberised – see the inscription on the skeleton-case in his office

@robertdaller The ONLY place for spoilers is the Spoilers thread.  If your post is only about this episode, or previous ones, that’s OK, but if it’s anything else it should be in Spoilers. If in doubt, post in Spoilers. (Could a passing mod (@Craig @jimthefish @phaseshift @fatmaninabox ) please check post #34613 and move if required. Thanks)

@craig 😯 (love the new look!!!)

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