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@whisht

And from Face the Raven, off to Spoilers I go! <snip>

“ooohhh – I have no idea if the episodes are in the ‘wrong’ order but like the idea (unreliable narrators and all that!!).

If we really are seeing a journey based on the Tarot, perhaps we should re-order the episodes based on the ‘traditional’ order of the Tarot?

Now, the only problem with that is:
a) we disagree as to which episode relates to which card*;
b) Moffat may have done a reading and had the series proceed in the same order as the reading (btw I think PK Dick used the I Ching when writing The Man in the High Castle);
c) we might be wrong and Moffat might say “Tarot?? Wha?”

*By the way, we might not only disagree about which episode relates to which card, but we may also have got the wrong Fool.
We all thought that the Madman (in a box) was the Fool.
But perhaps it was Clara (not a “pet” after all). If its her journey we’re seeing, then that might explain why we keep seeing her relationship to the Card (eg her relationship to the Magician; Hanged Man; person who must choose when shown the Wheel of Fortune) etc….”

Like that idea. We haven’t had The Lovers card yet, have we? Clara and Danny reunited somehow (maybe in the Time Lord tech Nethersphere)? Being together with a loved one but being out of reach of the Doctor is very much an AG companion exit trope.

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@fatmaninabox @nerys

I did think it might be possible that, in Face the Raven, the Doctor we are with is pre-Girl Who Died, but the Clara is post-Girl Who Died. But there is a reference to a room in the TARDIS that the Doctor has dedicated to tracking Me’s movements. So the Doctor must also have met Me already. Although… gah, my head hurts! :¬s

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@fatmaninabox

“Clara’s different to the other companions. She doesn’t live full-time in the TARDIS, preferring to have a few adventures and then go back to ‘real-life’ for a few weeks/months. This leaves The Doctor to wander about on his own (or with unmentioned companions) before picking Clara up.

In this series we have Clara emulating (or trying to emulate) The Doctor. I think we’re still seeing the adventures in chronological order, at least from Clara’s point of view. The Doctor, however, is now playing River’s role. He’s the one who’s been showing up out of synch.”

Oooh, I like that idea. Rather a lot, in fact. It would explain quite a few odd little moments (like the Doctor’s reaction to Clara in The Magician’s Apprentice, and his look towards Ashildr in The Girl Who Died). Anyone fancy having a stab at re-ordering Series 9 (so far) from the point of view of the Doctor’s timeline?

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@sirclockface @pedant

It would not especially surprise me (if filming schedules can be sorted) to see Ashildr along for a longer ride, desperate to do penance.

I hope not. I am not overly keen on the character or the actress. 🙁

River Song, perhaps? It would be interesting to see the dynamic of CapDoc travelling for an extended period with an older companion who is more his equal.

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@jphamlore @thebrainofmoffat

When Me says “Do you think a Cyberman fears a merciful death?” I think she may have picked just one of the species in her street to use as an example. I think we are not meant to know the actual species of the executed(?) man and his wife, and instead simply empathise with them and their situation. It is the same theme as Osgood refusing to state her species. It is irrelevant. She is an individual, and should be treated as such. The same is true of those accused of a crime by Me.

(Plus, to slightly undermine my own point about it being irrelevant what species they are, I struggle to imagine a Cyberman running as quickly and nimbly as the man who appears to be killed by the raven!)

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Hello Puro.
I’ve only been a member of the forum for a short time, but in that time I have already come to know you and your posts here as thoughtful, creative and eloquent. Your kindness has shone through on many occasions, and your posting style was one of the reasons I decided to sign up here. I am very sad to hear you received the news you did recently. It is utterly horrible. Having read what you are going through, I respect your decision to leave the forum. If you decide not to post here again I can assure you that your contributions will be well remembered, and that you will be missed. If you decide you would like to “pop in” again, I’m sure there will be many people delighted to talk with you.
I wish you all the best for the months ahead, and would like to send you strength and positive thoughts.
– Stuart

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@bluesqueakpip

Ah, fair dos. Did not know that.

At the mo, I’m leaning towards Clara “Prime” truly being dead. I think the “regen” pose was just a little joke aimed at us fans – I’m sure the show’s producers know full well what us fans speculate about, and this may have been a small acknowledgement of that speculation.

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@whisht @starla

Hmmm, yes, those lamps. They were very carefully highlighted (no pun intended) and explained, weren’t they…

Now, it could be that this is a key plot point regarding Clara’s death. Maybe she didn’t actually die as we think we saw her do. Maybe she is merely in stasis, or has regenerated (having been imbued with a bit of CapDoc’s regen mojo in The Witch’s Familiar).

Or, it could be a nice way to hide the true identity of the refugees from the viewer (in and out of fiction), meaning that, like with the Osgoods, their true origin is obscured to ensure each individual is treated equally and without discrimination.

Or, it could be a great way for the BBC to save money on “monster” costumes, and instead dip into the costume box marked “period drama”. I would totally understand this move, btw. We cannot expect unlimited budgets, after all, and I would rather the money be spent on other things of more importance/excitement.

I will say I found the pose Clara adopted just as the raven strikes her rather interesting. It was rather reminiscent of the pose adopted by 10 and then by 11 as they regenerated (well, the start of 11’s rather atypical regen process). A hint? Or just the BBC/Jenna Coleman having some fun with us bonkers theorists? Who nose? Time will tell… but will time tell the truth?

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Sorry to bring back a very old thread, but I have a question that has been bothering me ever since I saw this episode. I’ve skimmed this thread, and can’t see a definitive answer/theory. To be honest, there was quite a bit of troll-y behaviour going on, so it may have been lost under all that.

Anyway, as other posters have also noted, this episode is set in 2016. The events that end Series 8 (CapDoc 1) seem to definitively prevent this from happening. Or are all the episodes we are watching, including Death in Heaven, set in 2016 or later? Was this episode actually an alternative future timeline, or a dream of some sort? I am very confused! Help! ??? :¬s ???

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@purofilion @mersey

Apologies, perhaps I didn’t make myself clear. I too think Matt Smith’s Doctor can be extremely cheery and bouncy. Some of his stuff is just pure fun. I get the feeling, though, that he is often “putting on a brave face”, and is very, very troubled by the universe around him most of the time. It is more the tone of the stories, not necessarily the Doctor himself, that I feel turned darker under The Moff. There is a palpable feeling of hopelessness in the universe 11 bounces around in. He is my favourite Doctor, btw. Capaldi is pushing hard, though. Another strong series or two and we’ll see…

@ichabod

Yes! Ethical perils! They are often far, far scarier than physical perils. I feel pool old 12 is fated to face more than his fair share of ethical dilemmas – and Capaldi’s acting range is perfectly capable of dealing with the fallout.

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Well, for my part, I’ve felt the tone shifted to become darker from the start of Moffat’s tenure – and I love it. It is not all dark and scary – e.g. Robin of Sherwood, lots of Matt Smith episodes – and the darker stories still have very amusing comedic moments in them. I loved the guy on the Cold War Russian sub listening to Duran Duran, and the Doctor’s hand sticking through the door of a shrunken TARDIS in Flatline to make it walk, hermit crab style. For me, the balance is good right now. I can see that a shift to be slightly lighter may increase the number of younger viewers, though, and that is a good thing. The fans must keep regenerating too, after all. 🙂

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@bluesqueakpip

There was quite a bit of playing with the fourth wall in this episode – the one I particularly noticed was the Doctor’s reply to Clara’s ‘When do you sleep?’ – ‘When you’re not looking’.

I loved the slightly awkward pause after he said that. It was like the camera was reluctant to look away from him, trying to catch him nodding off for a quick snooze. 🙂

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@mersey

11 and 12 knew that Gallifrey was saved theoretically and 12 saved it practically and that’s why 14 and 15 didn’t turn up. They had no reason.

Hmm, hadn’t thought of that. That could work. Of course, even if they know the outcome, it seems a little churlish and lazy not to turn up and lend a hand, ey? I guess minimising the number of Doctors in any one place and time would be advantageous, though.

Or 12 turned up to follow Gallifrey after it was saved by his predecessors. It was its last known location in time and space.

Precisely what I am suggesting. Well, that or he is there to “re-direct” Gallifrey to some where or somewhen of his desire. Doctors 1-11 would still believe Gallifrey is saved, and is in its hidden pocket dimension *. 12, however, will know it is saved, but will also know where and when he put it.

* Presumably the memory of this would fade with all of these Doctors after the event, as stated in Day of the Doctor, I believe.

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@mersey

True, 12 would remember the event. But why no 13? 14? etc. We also don’t see 12 interact with any of the other Doctors, who do seem to be working together and communicating with each other. Does any other Doctor acknowledge the arrival of 12? Is his arrival explicitly shown to help the 12 Doctors work? I don’t think so, but it is a long while since I watched the ep.

I could be proven wrong (I often am!) but at present I am sure 12 is there on his own mission, not the one we were misdirected to presume.

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@janetteb
“It would make sense if she appears in each incarnation exactly when she is required rather than being born and growing up, as splinters of Clara were spread through the Doctor’s timeline. The image of the baby in Victorian London implies the later however which makes much less sense.”

@geoffers
“…my take on the claricles is that they appear only in the doctor’s time stream, at those points that the great intelligence was working to destroy him. each claricle is its own bootstrap paradox. she was never born in a traditional sense, she only appeared when needed. the backstory in each individual appearance would change accordingly, so that she could “navigate” the surroundings appropriately (i.e. she would know how to speak gallifreyan, and that’s how she could speak to incarnation #1), but her memories of being born and growing up, etc, were “implanted,” or made up, as needed. or, just variations on the theme of the original clara’s birth? all the claricles are just “stories” that sprang from the original, as she was splintered along the time stream…
now, is the original also a bootstrap paradox, herself?”

I think we are thinking along the same lines – the most logical way for Claricles to manifest would be fully formed and Clara shaped, appearing where they need to and shortly before they are required to interact with the Doctor. Any deviations from this would only add risk for no benefit, and if we are talking about “magic” processes they may as well be perfect, I’d have thought. The Claricles would likely be required to interact with those around them to some extent, and not just the Doctor, so it makes perfect sense for the Claricles to be created with the knowledge and memories required to operate in their designated environment – physically and socially. False memories… storytelling. The baby Claricle/s we have seen are nothing more than part of the story we are being told, which is believed to be true by the storyteller herself.

Another theme seems to be people (particularly Clara) being trapped in things, which could mean that our current Clara is also a Claricle, and is “trapped” in her destiny of only existing to save the Doctor. She’s doooomed, doomed I tells ye… /PteFraser

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While watching the wonderful sequence of all the known Doctors working to save Gallifrey in The Day of the Doctor, I was struck by the following thought:

Doctors 1-11 plus the War Doctor are indeed working together to save Gallifrey, as 10, 11 and War planned. When 12 arrives, all eyebrows and determined stare, we are meant to think he too has been summoned, and is helping move Gallifrey into a pocket dimension. But, what if he was not helping the planned effort? Would 11 be able to summon a future Doctor to help anyway? And if so, why weren’t 13, 14, 15, etc also there (in story – obvious real life reasons apart)? What if the 12 previous Doctors didn’t even know 12 was there (it is probably hard to notice anything over the tumult of so many Cloister Bells ringing!)? What if 12 is actually seen doing something yet to come – desperately racing to get back to the point at which he moves/hides Gallifrey to save it in a different way? Maybe he plans to track it, or somehow re-direct it to a location he knows? Maybe at the coordinates Missy gave him? After all, she told him where Gallifrey was, not where and when Gallifrey was. Maybe Gallifrey wasn’t there yet because he hadn’t yet put it there…

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@theatreguy

I’m glad Scott Bakula tempted you to post! Thanks for clarifying that about how the Claricles come into being. Or should that be Clara-fying that? ;¬)

Sorry if I’m a little (cough, very, cough) late to the party on this, but some thoughts on the Claricles actually being born:

1. This seems like an incredibly inefficient and risky way of placing Claricles where and when they need to be in the time stream. What would have happened if a Claricle were to die or become otherwise incapacitated between conception and saving the Doctor? There are ~25 years of things that could go wrong to stop the Claricle doing what it needs to.

2. Were the parents of each Claricle not surprised to find their child looked nothing like either of them (unless the Claricle knew to seek out parents with similar looks)?

3. Were the Claricle pregnancies created by the time stream timey-wimey stuff, or did the Claricles “over-ride” existing pregnancies? This would be quite wrong. The alternative is also quite weird – causing a pregnancy that would otherwise not have happened. Quite life changing for the parents, no?

4. Assuming each Claricle lived a “normal” human life (in line with having to be born, growing up, etc), did any of them go on to have children? Would the descendants of a Claricle have any special attributes (e.g. an affinity with time travel)?

Not trying to pick holes – just genuinely interested in the SF concept at play, and trying to understand it.

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An interesting theory, @margaret-blaine , regarding the Clara we’ve seen since The Witch’s Familiar being an earlier Clara than the one from The Magician’s Apprentice. I have a dim recollection that, possibly when saying goodbye to the Doctor at the end of the last series, Clara has at some point referenced a number of adventures she and the Doctor have shared that we have not seen. Does anyone else remember that? If so, would any of these “unseen” adventures match up with what we’ve seen this series? That would support your theory.

FWIW, I think Clara did get out of the Dalek (the only reason we didn’t see it was dull production reasons), but the Dalek didn’t get out of her. She is now a human/Dalek/Time Lord/Zygon/Sandman hybrid, and counting. Ultimately, Chekhov’s hybridisation must come into play at the series denouement, but quite how is anyone’s guess.

Either that, or the Doctor is being accompanied by Colony Sarff cosplaying as Clara (j/k).

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@pedant

Yes, I believe she is. But the Dalek nano tech will fight it off. Or the Time Lord regeneration energy. Or the next thing to hybrid-ise Clara. 😄

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A Claricle thought:

Claricles are “born”. As babies? Or do they pop into existence already Jenna Coleman shaped? Or, perhaps a third way – let’s call it Quantum Leap Theory. Claricles manifest by inhabiting the bodies of people who happen to be where and when the Doctor needs help. To those around them they appear unchanged. To us, the fly on the fourth wall, they look like Scott Bakula. No, wait, they look to us like Jenna Coleman. So, the Claricles we saw in the time stream never looked like Clara to the local observers, with the possible exception of the Doctor.

Further conjecture (based on little more than a feeling we will have a boot strap paradox and the Impossible Girl moniker): One of the Claricles (the Seventh’s?) manifested in the body of Clara’s mother – meaning Clara gave birth to herself. An impossible boot strap paradox.

Probably a load of old Sonics, but just a thought I had…

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Ooh, I liked that one. But that is true of most episodes this series. Poor old grunt (can’t remember her number – sorry).

More snakes, more stories, more unreality… we are definitely heading somewhere. No idea where yet, but I’m enjoying the ride. 😀

Any tarot references spotted?

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@purofilion

Ah, I must confess I had forgotten when Orson claimed to originate from in relation to Clara’s era. I thought he was from further forward in history.

I think the events of Dark Water & Death In Heaven could stand to some extent – Missy could still Cyber-ise the dead, etc, kill an Osgood, Cyber-Brig still gets Kate out of hot water, etc. The sub-plot with Danny Pink in the after life would be lost, but would that effect the majority of events in “the real world”? I honestly can’t remember how everything related and was inter-linked. Of course, the Cyber-Danny would not exist, and so could not rebel against the programming and order the self-destruct. Cyber-Brig would be able to do that in the revised time line, perhaps?

Of course, the child Danny Pink killed would not then be saved from, well, wherever he and Danny were at the end of the story (I’m still a little weirded out by that whole “life-after-death” thing)… unless Clara could save him somehow. Could Clara engineer a swap, her life for the boy’s, so the boy is alive once more, Danny/Orson lives forever, and she spends the rest of eternity stuck in a false reality, or after-life?

Further bonkers theory: The “confession dial” is actually the equivalent of Gallifreyan external hard drive, and contains Missy’s after-life and all the souls within it, including Clara. The reason the Doctor sent it to Missy was that as she is the only other Gallifreyan he knows to live, only she could understand the importance of the dial, and know how to possibly access the data/souls therein. Perhaps the Doctor hoped against hope that Missy would act on his final wishes, and somehow save/protect those souls rather than use/abuse them for some nefarious scheme?

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I can’t get the episode Listen out of my head. I’m sure the Orson Pink loose end therein is going to be addressed at some point, and it makes most sense to tackle it with Clara still around. We have seen the following:

* Three Mire helmets were removed by the Doctor et al in The Girl Who Died.

* Two Mire “eternal” first aid packs, sourced from the Mire helmets, were given by the Doctor to Ashildr/Me – one was used on Ashildr/Me to bring her back to life, and the other was used on Sam Swift.

* Although she is now functionally immortal, Ashildr/Me’s standard issue human pudding brain proved incapable of storing all the information encountered in several hundred years of life. She even seemed to forget basic, core information such as her original name and her childhood in the Viking village.

* In Listen, the Doctor and Clara encounter a human adventurer many, many years in the future. He is called Orson Pink, bears an uncanny physical resemblance to Clara’s boyfriend, Danny Pink, and possesses a toy soldier believed to belong to Danny Pink as a child. However, he seemed to know nothing of Clara, or Danny.

* Later, Clara was (and probably still is) distraught at the death of Danny Pink in a car crash. The full details of the crash are unknown.

* Clara has previously exhibited very strong feelings of wanting to go back and save Danny from his death.

* Clara has some degree of access to the TARDIS, and has been shown to be able to pilot it to some extent (e.g. in Listen and The Zygon Inversion).

Conjecture: In the series ending two-parter, Clara somehow travels back in time trying to save Danny. Missy and/or Me may have a hand in helping her do this, against the Doctor’s wishes, of course. It is possible that, in going back in time, she actually causes the incident that killed Danny. Either way, she now has the third Mire first aid kit. She gives it to Danny, healing him. He is now functionally immortal, and goes on to become Orson Pink, forgetting Clara and his life as Danny. Clara is effectively left behind as a “mayfly”. Run, you clever boy, and remember…

This sequence of events would prevent Dark Water and Death in Heaven from playing out as they did, among other things. What would the Doctor be forced to do to prevent such damage to the established time line? Could Cyber-Danny’s sacrifice be replaced by a sacrifice made by Clara? After all her sacrifices to save the Doctors, perhaps she will bow out sacrificing herself to save Danny?

Just some bonkers theorising. What do you think?

 

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@kharis

“Not sure why the Doctor kept asking if Osgood was a Zygon or Human, since clearly the point from the beginning was it doesn’t matter…”

My take is that the Doctor was genuinely unsure of which Osgood he was talking to. I don’t know if he had an inkling or not, but either way he found this Osgood to be utterly convincing. I think he was intrigued by the prospect of an incredibly convincing copy being made of an individual he knows, and the possibility that he may not immediately recognise them as a copy. I think the Doctor is now doubting that the Clara he travels with is the Clara he originally met (Clara Prime), and she is instead a Claricle, and therefore doomed to die for him. I think Clara Prime may have in fact “died” in the time stream, and only Claricles came out. But would there be a Claricle for a future iteration of the Doctor? Who knows?

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Hello all! I’ve been enjoying your bonkers theorising for some time now, and thought I’d sign up so I could join in with some of the chats.

I’ve been watching AG Who sporadically since the start(ish), but regularly only since the 11th Doctor era started. I did watch some BG Who as a child (and largely found it terrifying!). Peter Davison is the Doctor I remember most from that time, I think, although I did watch some of the 6th and 7th stories too.

I look forward to the mad speculation! 🙂

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