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26 October 2018 at 11:23 #65005
You both obviously have vested interests in the EU.
*points at lisa
hahahahahahahahahahahaahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
*inhales*.
First: that it classic paranoid conspiracy thinking.
Second: at least try to grasp the concept of tiers.
there is ignorance, and there is the kind of wilful ignorance that you exhibit.
thought you had stronger skills coping with disagreements.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhah
26 October 2018 at 02:53 #64993Gotta love a bit of Copeland.
If you can find Howard Goodalls contextualising of Variations On a Shaker Hymn it is a fun listen (I think it was part of his Story of Music series).
BTW @thane16 The Statistical Outlier, have you seen Ready Player One? It a bit of a hoot (though two moments that rattled my suspension of disbelief), but it uses motifs from pretty well every SF and superhero film you can think of, including a lot of John Williams (of course). I suspect you would find it an aural treat.
Hmmm.
A variation
and a film using well-known hooks to nod to many of its inspirations.
It’s almost as if the composer has done his research.
That seems to be becoming a bit of a theme.
25 October 2018 at 17:34 #64956The Commission is made up of representatives appointed by the democratically elected governments of each member state. What you have said is the equivalent of “Hillary Clinton should never have been Secretary of State because nobody elected her”.
The elected body of the EU is the European Parliament.
The EU is a rules based membership organisation. One of the rules of membership is that budgets are sustainable and don’t put the finance of the continent at risk.
Italy willingly signed up to that rule, tried to ignore that rule, and failed.
The best part is we elect our own Governor.
And we elect our own Prime Minister (as does every other member state). And their own Parliaments who are free to implement, or not, EU law (such as the UK not implementing EU migration law).
So what’s your point? Oh, that’s right – there isn’t one that is in any way based of fact.
You really should at least try researching things before you post.
25 October 2018 at 17:06 #64953@kevinwho
Yep – as noted upthread, on the axis of steely resolve and matter-of-fact truthiness.
25 October 2018 at 15:53 #64950Also worth noting that Puro is an actual bona fide proper world class expert on music, with the PhD and years of experience (and a truly great Bowie anecdote that it is worth searching the forum for) to prove it. So if some halfwit says “the music was crap and unoriginal” you can safely take it that any reply from Puro is not just winging it, but from a deep and rich understanding of the subject matter.
@thane16, aka Spawn of Puro, learns fast and pays attention in school …
25 October 2018 at 12:06 #6494325 October 2018 at 01:49 #64920@lisa – yes, massively off-topic and completely ignorant about what the EU is and how it operates. You have actually fallen, hook, like and sinker for the fascist version of history (I don’t use the term alt-right since I am not inclinded todo their PR for them), but that is your choice and off-topic.
Anyhoo, as @juniperfish notes, Krasko’s character was not about the backstory but the cautionary tale from today. As someone (Bradbury? Sturgeon? both, quoting each other?) once said “science fiction does not aim to predict the future but to prevent it.” A corollary of that is “Stop doing the stupid things you are doing now” so echoing the slick smugness of the neo-fascists strutting around now is a long way from accidental, and far more interesting than any redundant future history made up on the hoof. That’s also why we see Yaz and Ryan understanding things through their own lived experience not through the eyes of made up future Nazi and his paranoid fantasies.
Like I said, it’s almost as if the writers did their research.
24 October 2018 at 11:47 #6490124 October 2018 at 11:41 #64899I’ll let you field this one, @thane16 the elder…
24 October 2018 at 01:14 #64886@kevinwho
Asimov’s comments
tl;dr
It is extremely bad writing form to deploy backstory for declamatory, exculpatory or (in Asimov’s example) revelatory purposes that has not been properly established or foreshadowed. It’s just rank bad writing, although a lot of shows (including on occasion, Dr Who) use it as a shortcut. It’s a sort of corollary to Chekhov’s Gun.
The worse sin, however, is that it is redundant. It wouldn’t tell us anything we need to know, not when the single phrase “your kind”, aimed at Ryan, has already done so. None of his other dimensions (if there are any) are relevant to this story, which was about Rosa Parks’s act of moral and physical courage, and what it enabled. Economy is the biggest single virtue in writing. Also, dropping sickle cell in there was just tasteless.
If you want to explore this further there is a fan creativity section, although I’d recommend coming up with your own characters in your own universe to develop properly. I do however, charge for my editorial services.
23 October 2018 at 22:42 #64881@kevinwho @jimthefish
While examining the methods and means of those who promote terrorism, do the radicalisation – whether the Bin Ladens or the Brezhnevs or the Prabhakarans- and indeed of those on the cusp of being radicalised, is fertile ground, the front line goons have gone past the point interest. In Krasko’s case as soon as he used the term “mongrel”. I don’t care what his motivation is, or what twisted rationale he wants to spew, any more than I am interest in Andreas Breveiks warped diatribes, since he crossed the point of no return when he blew up 2000 people.
I’m not much interested in Hug A Terrorist. Or fanfic, but that’s another story.
And no, it wasn’t carefully planned.
Parks had not initially realised that the driver was the same one who had left her in the rain in 1943 (as depicted in the episode). The dialogue used is as reported by her, and the NAACP (for which she was, indeed, a secretary) bailed her out and put the boycott plan they had been developing in action. It was a pretext they had been looking for, but her specific protest was not planned:
“People always say that I didn’t give up my seat because I was tired, but that isn’t true. I was not tired physically, or no more tired than I usually was at the end of a working day. I was not old, although some people have an image of me as being old then. I was forty-two. No, the only tired I was, was tired of giving in.”( Parks, Rosa; James Haskins (1992). Rosa Parks: My Story. Dial Books. p. 116. ISBN 0-8037-0673-1.)
It’s almost as if the writers had done their research (even the bus was an exact replica of the actual bus, which is in the Ford museum).
(Oh, @kevinwho – you could usefully track down Asimov’s comments on writing SF detective fiction, since it rather illustrates what a terrible solution the one you propose is)
23 October 2018 at 17:26 #64847The joy of the fans outshouting the wailing fanboys has been a treat for the past couple of weeks. But this week especially.
I like the new TARDIS interior
I think we may need to form a support group…
23 October 2018 at 16:08 #64844Well, I did say the Angry Virgins would be very cross.
23 October 2018 at 00:37 #6482423 October 2018 at 00:11 #64820It might be more convincing if you spelt Troughton correctly.
”social justice” narrative
Or “decency” as it is known outside fuckwit circles.
Which has always been at the core of Doctor Who’s storytelling.
As I said upthread, some of the dialogue was a bit spelly-outy for my tastes, but I have been around the track at least as many times as you and have known many of the stories that Who uses for mumblemumble decades. But I do not assume that my 10 year old niece knows them, and friends who have been able to have conversations with their kids about racism are profoundly grateful for the chance.
If you want to characterise a really quite mild depiction of one of the most brutally racist environments in a democracy, ever, and an extraordinary act of moral and physical courage as “social justice narrative”, that is about as a big a statement of privilege as is conceivable and you might want to, you know – check it.
This is th BBC doing what it is chartered to do: inform, educate and entertain. All in one package.
22 October 2018 at 17:02 #64810**Pausing for a few moments to point at Mr F, our representative from Sockpuppetvania, and laugh**
Forgot to mention something: the thing that absolutely blew out any shred of residual doubt about Whittaker’s Doctor was “Don’t threaten me”. Delivered on that tricky axis between steely resolve and matter of fact truthiness.
22 October 2018 at 14:44 #64800Five, four, three, two….
22 October 2018 at 14:34 #64798There’s a Tom Petty song for every occasion. And quite often, a Johnny Cash performance…
And the song from the ep
21 October 2018 at 23:53 #64776It wouldn’t just be non-survival. He would be rendered down to his constituent molecules toot-suite. DNA is not that robust and even if it were, a gene is just a gene but not even that if it is just an unordered gloop of nucleotides. And there would be 5 great extinctions to sort out any residual issues…
21 October 2018 at 23:18 #64770but I remain a trifle worried about what the baddy could still achieve from whatever time he was zapped back to, even if it was to the Jurassic or the primeval ooze. I seem to remember several short stories on that theme written way back in the 1950s and early 60s.
He would last a few seconds. Boiling hot and no breathable atmosphere. All those short stories just didn’t have up-to-date science (I can introduce to a Nobel Laureate who is studying this very topic…).
21 October 2018 at 22:55 #64767Being unusual (in very few cases impossible) is one thing. Being in the midst of state-sponsored racism is quite another.
21 October 2018 at 22:34 #64761Worth noting the role of the cop in this. It wasn’t just a grace note . He tailed them and his in-story purpose was to lampshade that racism here wasn’t just a social attitude (as could be argued for Victorian London as witnessed by 12) but state policy in a democracy. Montgomery was a very dangerous place because the state made it so. So running to authority was not an option, and fronting it up downright perilous.
21 October 2018 at 20:48 #64748Oh, and the Banksy gag.
And a baddie who is not not an alien doing it for bizarre alien reasons, but a Nazi doing it for Nazi reasons.
21 October 2018 at 20:38 #64746Other musings:
“Don’t threaten me”;
Ryan’s second bit of “gun” play. Wonder if that will come back to bite him;
The conversation behind the bin, although a bit spelly-outy for me with a lot of miles on the clock, was probably worth spelling out for younger viewers;
The console’s crystal thingy goes up and down;
The Doctor’s casual “Just want to check something” as she sabotaged the Nazi’s kit without him noticing;
Speaking of whom, half expected him to be a time cop, a la Captain Jack’s cover story, but nice they went WAY dark;
1 is being generous unless you are referring to penis length in millimetres
21 October 2018 at 20:03 #64743Oh look, we have a fuckwit in the house. [at]oldgitdotcom needs evicting.
21 October 2018 at 20:01 #64742Obviously he got zapped back to the primordial soup and contributed his biochemistry to kick-starting evolution 😉
Ryan did say “as far back as it would go” – but a possible arc thread.
21 October 2018 at 19:56 #64738Meanwhile, it is nice to see how things have changed…
21 October 2018 at 19:50 #64736That moment when Graham realised he had to be on the wrong side of history…
21 October 2018 at 02:22 #64729I just checked “Heaven Sent”,
Start with the right episode. Heaven Sent was the middle of a three-parter.
“You say your line, I’ll say mine”.
I didn’t see that somewhat clunky timing until re-watching Heaven Sent,
I was commenting on this episode, the topic of this thread, the clue being:
Anyway, back to what actually happened in the episode:
To try and get the thread back on topic.
20 October 2018 at 18:53 #64727*Runs around waving shirt in the air*
20 October 2018 at 14:09 #64726at approx. 45:49
I admire the precision of that approximation.
But as someone on That Twitter said: “Find someone who looks at you the way the Doctor looks at the Tardis”.
20 October 2018 at 11:22 #6471120 October 2018 at 11:17 #64710Call me Captain Obvious:
20 October 2018 at 01:09 #64698@shinymcshine
So long Dr. Who, I already miss you so much.
Oh dear Lord.
Post “corrective” fanfic: CHECK
Suggest writer (whose steepedness in relation to Who is as impeccable as it can be) is insufficiently familiar with Dr Who : CHECK
Accuse writer of selling out: “CHECK”
Deny calling writer a hack, when writing to a brief for money (that would be the selling bit) is the exact definition of a hack (an actual hack writes): CHECK
Some of the best writers in history were hacks. Hack is high praise because being one is really fucking hard work.
Chibnall is a flawed writer and has done some things I am hugely critical of (search here for my comments on Broadchurch 2), but as the Romans knew, only the Gods are perfect.
But he isn’t in any way a sell-out, and suggesting otherwise says a lot more about you than him, or Doctor Who.
20 October 2018 at 00:49 #64697Okay, I do not remember 12 being able to “leave at any time”.
In that case you did not pay sufficient attention, which is far enough. Moffat’s writing is unforgiving of those who don’t. But it was spelled out clearly, in text.
But anyway, it was Time Lord tech not a fanwank British institution (which for realism would be a 48 hour watch before being released in to the tender arms of Care In The Community) and which is Nothing. Whatsoever. To. Do. With. Anything .That . Happened. In. This. Episode.
If people want their fanfic reviewed, we have a place for that. It should not be used to disrupt episode discussion.
they sort of did, didn’t they, with McGann?
And the half human thing from the movie is exactly the point. It was hated by fans. All fans. Everywhere. Moffat didn’t fix it, he just completely disregarded it, writing an minisode that clearly established McGann’s Doctor as a fully-on member of the by-then hated race.
Look at the care that was taken at setting up even the possibility of a gender-changing Time Lord. Now you suggest species changing? How much set-up would that take? Because in fantasy you can’t just arbitrarily say “anything goes”.
At least not good fantasy.
If Chibnall decides to go down the origin story route I can see clear “wiggle” room for Susan to be half human. But I doubt he would be stupid enough to repeat a hated error.
Anyway, back to what actually happened in the episode:
It was the landing that mattered, not the fall;
Grace was a toll and a warning in a way that Redshirt Of The Week can never be (not that they were redshirts, to be fair);
Karl was a micro-metaphor for Tim Shaw, unable to succeed without props or a dick-move;
Whittaker’s Doctor is most definitely The Doctor.
Chibnall gets a bit hand-wavy with the speed that people can move around with conventional transport.
Personally (and this is true of the next ep too) I’d like to see crisper dialogue editing. There were a few moment s of “You say your line, I’ll say mine”.
19 October 2018 at 12:24 #64674You’re one of those weirdos who doesn’t dunk, aren’t you? 😉
19 October 2018 at 10:56 #64670A dark, gloomy….custard cream dispenser.
19 October 2018 at 10:51 #64669As was repeatedly stated, he could have left at any time. So maybe add “stubborn” to “patient”.
In a show like this, where anything goes
So it would be fine to make the Doctor half-human….
18 October 2018 at 23:15 #64661Um. There’s The Wedding of River Song, where he’s regarded as a crazy Soothsayer and it’s Amy who rescues him.
In an alternate reality where time had stopped working. Kinda undermines a Time Lord, that.There were several stories in the Moffat era where the Doctor was imprisoned for months – but it always turned out that he had a reason for not escaping
So he wasn’t contained, he was waiting.
Literally, we need to break the laws of the Whoniverse or use a radical new meaning of “being patient”…
Either way, none of this is about what happened in the episode.
It’s not as if he/she hasn’t designed other weird and wonderful devices to detect whatever the script needs him/her to detect.
Or had them left to him by smelly old aunts…
18 October 2018 at 23:11 #64660Have just been through a whole chuck of this just listening to the music.
You know what? It’s bloody fantastic. A while back I mentioned that there was something very Blue Veils and Golden Sands about one of the bits on his site, and I feel that even more now. Delia Derbyshire would have recognised it as a direct descendant of her body of work (not just on Who). God, why did hardly anyone take her properly seriously until it was too late? For that alone Akinola should be saluted.
Also, thanks for the plane info @thane16 – glad I wasn’t totally misremembering.
18 October 2018 at 22:39 #64657@shinymcshine
The fall needed more setup.
Why? The story wasn’t about the fall, it was about the landing, and its impact. An already odd day for Graham, Grace, Ryan and Yaz was about to get a whole lot odder. And we the viewers knew something they didn’t, which made it rather delicious.
One of Moffat’s strengths (apart from command of metaphor, plot dynamics, characterisation and humour) is that he didn’t waste time explaining things at length that were bleedin’ obvious to those paying attention. I am quite relieved that Chibnall is trying to take that on, even if there are a few more visits from Eddie Exposition than I like.
Inventing non-existent characters, that apparently have future arcs all worked out is not really helping your cause…
Grace noted the double heartbeat immediately. Any sort of medical facility would have found the same and investigated further, probably with X Rays. Which you can safely bet UNIT would have heard about PDQ. And in every regeneration we have seen the Doctor (and other Time Gentry) is quickly fully aware of who he/ she is and what they are capable of, even when the navigation is a bit off. There is literally nothing in canon that supports the idea that the Doctor would remain contained, and about 50 years worth that suggests the opposite.
already part of the new Doctor’s new team and beginning to soak up her style of morality, I could see her rebuke as legit.
As I said, it was a rebuke for someone who had made a dick move on someone who was beaten and being expelled – then crowed about it, in his wholly inadequate way. It was a tiny analogue of Tom Shaw’s abject an cowardly inadequacy.
Blimey. I like the rebuke even more now. Entirely informed by over 50 years of characterisation and also aimed at a little metaphor within.
You know, I think Chibbers might have watched the show once or twice.
18 October 2018 at 19:51 #64635I suspect it’s one of those things that gets filed under the general heading of “it just does”.
But given the level of Time Lord tech and the fact that the screwdriver itself can cope with anything (except wood) I imagine the Tardis can work out how to hijack it and add the requisite software.
18 October 2018 at 14:12 #64630Somewhere in the deepest recesses of my memory, I have the thought that the Royal Air Force did some research into the impact of different vocal styles had on the authority of air controllers. It found that female voices had a timbre to them that pilots (sometimes coming from quite stressful situations) responded to better than any other. I may be misremembering, bit I don’t think so.
This is what initials were invented for 😉
18 October 2018 at 13:49 #64628@shinymcshine
Contrapuctual
First off, falling out of the sky and crashing through the roof of a train should be dramatic
Why? Could you point to the page of the Big Red Book Of Rules For Stories that says falls must always be played straight? Buster Keaton and Charlie Chaplin must have regretted their entire careers when they read that.
I would urge a bit of consistency: the idea of the Doc being contained in a psychiatric ward is funny. Well, laughable anyway.
Also, We. Have. A. Fanfic. Section.
Excellent point; and I was also startled and offended when the Doctor told the crane operator off for attacking their attacker — he wasn’t shooting at Tim Shaw from a safe distance,
Oh pish. He was defeated and oozing from every pore, and The Doctor had given him winners terms of being able to leave. Then Karl dick-moved him from behind in a manner that every previous iteration of the Doctor would have hated.
18 October 2018 at 10:20 #64617Personally would rather refer to them as Christopher, David, Matt, Peter, Jody simply because I find these easier to spell, but it’s true, she does seem to be ‘Jody’
*circles bait*
*thinks better of it*
In the Usenet days the convention (and I don’t think it was any more than that, plus a bit of micro-bandwidth management) was to use the initials (for of Buffy it was SMG, AH, NB, ASH etc etc). That side-steps the problem nicely.
@shinymcshine
I’m also getting the feeling that the new writing crew doesn’t really understand the show very well. Of course, that makes sense in some ways.
That would the the Chibnall (wrote both episodes) who has written for Who for years and is every bit the uber-fan that RTD and Moffat are?
17 October 2018 at 19:53 #64599Eccleston
Tennant
Smith
Capaldi
Jodie.
There’s part of the challenge, right there.
English doesn’t really have informal vs formal address in the way that other languages do (eg: vous vs tu), but we inject it in other ways without even trying.
17 October 2018 at 01:06 #64588I’m with @bendubz11. Apart from oreos which, besides being and American affectation, do something deeply unsettling in your digestive tract if you eat a whole packet.
Not that I’m allowed any sodding biccies at the moment.
One aims to please 🙂
(Did you see my gif of Dinas’s fledging? Can’t recall if I tagged you or not.)
Also,
LindaLeeRose is very taken with the new Tardis. Also, she knows a biscuit when she sees one:
16 October 2018 at 23:51 #64584but I had trouble with “Deep Throat” for the same reason
I really hope you meant “Deep Breath” there!
On the other hand….
16 October 2018 at 11:06 #64560Never said stories aren’t important!
But when you have a quiet moment read up on the research into the reliability of eye witness accounts.
16 October 2018 at 11:00 #64559Apparently have have a 7 season arc planned.
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