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  • #69600
    Whisht @replies

    @thane16 – hey you! Hope everything is good with you.
    Love the music!
    Da Pacem is just…. {sigh} and now I realise there’s an entire album called Da Pacem and not just the opening piece! Usually I wait for serendipidy when buying music (ie it turns up at a charity shop) but on this occasion I reckon I need to actually get it!

    Sometimes I have Arvo Part on headphones when I’m reading but if this comes on (or a few others) I have to stop and listen.
    Then I stick a bit of Eno on, as its less likely to intrude!

    #69599
    Whisht @replies

    @peacefrog – indeed, if I hadn’t found the Florian one I was planning on that ol’ Auton fallback Showroom Dummies and say “well, the Doctor did mention them!”
    ;¬)

    #69589
    Whisht @replies

    he he @peacefrog – I have my bonkers theory and will flog it till it stops moving!

    Then i’ll kick it and cry “see – it’s still alive!”

    ;¬)

    But you’ve got me on that Kraftwerk track – I can’t make it fit with the series or episodes (I should think harder I know!). I’m sure it will be a face-palm moment!

    But yes, I guess I’m hoping at least one of the next episodes deals with motorways, cycling as environmentally friendly or… Autons!

    #69588
    Whisht @replies

    Hi @blenkinsopthebrave
    I’m thinking about watching the Picard series, but wondered if you had thoughts on which Trek films/ episodes I should watch first.

    I’ve seen a random selection of Star Trek, never a full series. So if you happen to know a storyline that might make sense to watch (in terms of Picard) or film where its kinda necessary to know so-and-so did this, I’d be grateful.

    However, that might also be like someone asking “hey – I want to watch this thing called Doctor Who. What should I watch first?” and the answer being ‘dive in, they’ll use exposition (sometimes well and sometimes clumsily!)’.

    ;¬)

    #69563
    Whisht @replies

    So, for Praxeus (bold as love? nah, though what it does reference I’m a bit mystified about…) it seems that Chibnall is a real geek of Kraftwerk.

    He’s referencing Florian Schneider’s solo work!

    ;¬)

    (The beginning made me think of this but these songs are very different)

    #69562
    Whisht @replies

    ha ha @peacefrog – I love a lyric that is completely exposition!
    Though I think I’m more of a Swamp Thing person myself (though not as cerebral!).

    Weirdly I don’t think I’ve ever seen the video for Hit.
    Which makes me think just how did I ever hear those Sugarcubes songs??!?

    I guess I must’ve bought them or had someone make a mixtape for me.
    Its all a bit blurry now….

    :¬)

    #69527
    Whisht @replies

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    I can only think of one other main character from the Wizard of Oz film and I’m now beginning to hope this theory will happen!

    Toto – Dorothy’s pet.
    Based on what the Master said about pets before… Clara is coming back!!
    Clara and Whittaker Doctor… I reckon that chemistry could work!

    {sigh}

    “Fangasm” is probably what I’m now being guilty of.

    :¬o

    #69522
    Whisht @replies

    @peacefrog
    Ooh never even heard of the Toadies before! Thanks for that!
    And always love a bit of Bjork – even when I don’t like some of her music, I love that she writes it! Always pushing herself. Wonderful. (and always brings back watching a bonkers interview she did when in the Sugarcubes talking about a TV… When she says “city” I fell in love a bit more!)

    Oh, and wasn’t saying anything to diss Tom Petty. Certainly not the Paul Simon “oh did Carty play that to me?” thing ;¬)
    I guess its just the folky tinge made me think of other folk songs (but can’t figure which). But love hearing new songs and reading about it just now it seems it came to him fully formed too!

    #69520
    Whisht @replies

    @blenkinsopthebrave – methinks #2

    Glinda – Good witch who appears at convenient times (early on and at the end) to nudge Dorothy along.
    With Dorothy being The Doctor, and Captain Jack appearing with a nudge and then promising to be there at the end… but surely they wouldn’t do that gag.
    Glinda is kind’ve the Fairy Godmother….

    yeah, actually – Glinda is Captain Jack

    ;¬)

    #69517
    Whisht @replies

    @blenkinsopthebrave – he he ;¬)

    Glinda – Good witch who appears at convenient times to nudge Dorothy along; RuthDoctor methinks!

    #69507
    Whisht @replies

    @blenkinnsopthebrave @rob

    I kinda now think this theory is less ‘bonkers’ and more ‘I kinda hope not as it’d limit the characters’ so I’ll leave it alone and try something more daft (like following up on RuthDoc being the Master ;¬) ) but to belabour this one, there were two major characters I forgot to do…

    Dorothy – she wants to go home (and presumably grow in most adolescent-hero-journey terms); The Doctor (ie WhittakerDoctor) wants to go home but is also now in a reality that feels slightly odd.
    The Wicked Witch of the West – she’s just nasty (though she wants something from Dorothy) so makes sense just to think that’d be the Master. However…
    The Wizard of Oz – is a powerful, frightening ruler yet… is revealed as a sham, someone with no power at all. If this were the Master, perhaps that’d be closer to him realising about himself that all the shouting, the seeming power and control of others are “all a lie”. Such a thing would crush him…

    Scarecrow – wants to be smarter; has Graham had a habit of thumping his head and saying “I know this” while trying to think of something?
    Tin Man – wants a heart (empathy) – Yaz has loads of empathy but riffing on @bluesqueakpip ‘s earlier thought as to whether Yaz might want to suggest a ‘for-the-many’ solution by sacrificing one, this could be a moment to ‘learn’ this is ethically…. dubious (at least arguable!);
    Lion – Ryan constantly battles his nerves and lack of self-esteem. But like all the companions in Wizard of Oz, they already have the gifts they always thought they needed…

    #69497
    Whisht @replies

    @blenkinsopthebrave – I wholeheartedly agree and truly hope none of my bonkerising is anything like the actual storyline!

    ;¬)

    #69496
    Whisht @replies

    Now this band may be considered (cruelly) as Flaming Lips-Lite but they do prove that really good choruses are a bloody good thing.

    This song is all chorus.

    And its a bloody good thing.

    And makes me smile

    ;¬)

    #69495
    Whisht @replies

    @peacefrog – not heard Wildflowers (Tom Petty) before; its rather pretty and it oddly sounds familiar, so I wonder if its a traditional melody..? (I won’t invoke @thane16 ‘s or @arbutus ‘ and others’ insanely hooge knowledge of earlier music – its not just SNL skits! ;¬) )
    btw I agree that only fans of Pearl Jam knew they were on the Neil Young album at the time, and as you say maybe not much wider than that.

    #69493
    Whisht @replies

    @rob @blenkinsopthebrave
    I think that if there any allusions to Oz then I hope(!) that they aren’t too literal (as I think it’d reduce the companions rather than extend them).

    However… not wanting to leave a bone or catnip alone…. one could have:
    Scarecrow – wants to be smarter; has Graham had a habit of thumping his head and saying “I know this” while trying to think of something?
    Tin Man – wants a heart (empathy) – Yaz has loads of empathy but riffing on @bluesqueakpip ‘s earlier thought as to whether Yaz might want to suggest a ‘for-the-many’ solution by sacricing one, this could be a moment to ‘learn’ this is ethically…. dubious (at least arguable!);
    Lion – Ryan constantly battles his nerves and lack of self-esteem. But like all the companions in Wizard of Oz, they already have the gifts they always thought they needed…

    #69473
    Whisht @replies

    @arbutus – I was trying to find some Chinese/Scottish mashup and wasn’t able to!
    But thanks for the Gung Haggis Fat Choy link – they have haggis wonton (and no, its not one tonne of haggis!). They even manage to have dim sum turnip!
    And there was I thinking there was no way to mix haggis and Chinese food!
    ;¬)

    @peacefrog – thanks for the Deep Purple… not a band I know much of (obviously they’ve always been around!). I guess I just never developed that heavy prog thing, though I did dabble with Floyd and other things… But its always good to listen and see if it finally bites!
    Oh, and that Creature from the Black Lagoon at least has more motivation than the Dregs…
    I know the Red Hot Chilli Pepper song but didn’t know its name – nice ‘parallel universe’ track!
    Thanks for the Neil Young song too – not heard that album and interesting to not use Crazy Horse (who are stodgy at best). I’ll check it out.

    @bluesqueakpip – didn’t know the Master liked Scissor Sisters! Hilarious (good choon though)!

    ;¬)

    #69472
    Whisht @replies

    @blenkinsopthebrave – its an interesting Oz allusion.

    I wonder if the lone Cyber/Tin Man will be important?
    A chopper-down of trees… (back to Orphan 55?? gawd hope not) who asks for a heart… but should not be given one (because it means the ‘end’ of Cybermen and so is an echo of Genesis of the Daleks “Do I have the right?”) or because they would be unstoppable…?

    tbh it may be just for throwaway lines and spinning houses in the air; more catnip-clues-for-bonkerising.

    Generally I think that if they’re trying to give the Doctor some ‘mystery’, then answering all this would actually leave us with no mystery, so I’m resigned to loose ends!

    ;¬)

    #69469
    Whisht @replies

    So – I think I have it.

    RuthDoc is The Doctor. But she won’t always be.
    She’ll become The Master.

    So… now for some timey wimey effwittery to get this bonkerising to be the case….

    There once were two friends at the Academy on Gallifrey.
    One was a bit more distracted than the other. This one had to re-do their exams etc and stay at the Academy an extra year.
    But the other friend was smart and she passed as expected, became a Time Lord and was given the title/name… “The Doctor”.
    This name was one that called for the TL to be wise and caring and helpful etc etc.
    Unfortunately this TL was none of these – in fact she was a bit of a git.
    So bad in fact that the TLs had to ‘recall’ The Doctor to Gallifrey and remove that title/name from her (oh the indignity!).
    They gave her another title/name and mind-wiped the memory of being The Doctor. And then had to give her another title/name as she failed to live up to that one either (and another mind-wipe). And again, over and over going through various title/names with various mind-wipes. She wasn’t up to any of them.
    In the end the TLs sarcastically gave her the title/name “The Master”*.
    [Obvious the multiple mind-wipes did nothing for her mental stability.]

    They gave the title/name The Doctor to the friend at the Academy who had finally passed their exams and was ready to become a Time Lord. They told this one “you need to make sure the name ‘The Doctor’ only means good things etc”.
    We know The Doctor, this Doctor, as its our Doctor, the one we first met as HartnellDoc.

    The O’Master has returned to Gallifrey and discovered the terrible truth of how s/he wasn’t good at living up to any of the names s/he’d been given and how all the TLs laughed at him and its all a lie… (and then went and invited the Daleks in for tea to destroy Gallifrey).

    RuthDoc hasn’t yet been recalled for being ‘a bit of a git’ so thinks of herself as The Doctor, but knows she shouldn’t really shoot people/ rip their horns off etc.

     

     

    * yes this entire season is all a gag about being a jack-of-all-trades and…

    #69425
    Whisht @replies

    @bluesqueakpip – so is your theory that the Doctor has mind-wiped herself (or allowed herself to be mind-wiped)?

    I’d go for that!

    But still wonder if a choice needs to be made at the end, between ‘our’ Doctor and RuthDoctor – that a choice needs to be made ‘for the greater good’ (as you’ve suggested about Yaz) that changes the relative future.

    Methinks RuthDoctor would say “do it” (even though it means she never existed), our Doctor hesitate, and Yaz…. hit the button!

    ;¬)

    #69409
    Whisht @replies

    So, For Fugitive of the Judoon, methinks Chibnall is again channeling his inner Kraftwerk.

    Two Doctors you say?

    #69408
    Whisht @replies

    So, I saw Fugitive of the Judoon last night and after reading the mainly positive comments will need to watch again. I guess my initial impression wasn’t ‘squee’ with reveals etc, but more exhaustion from the stream of ‘and now this!’ (Judoon! Jack! Cyberman riddle! RuthDoc!).
    On re-evaluating one aspect (just now) I guess I’m a bit more ‘ok’ with the ‘other doctor’s’ fighting skills as PertweeDoc was hardly shy with a bit of Venusian Aikido. Otherwise I’d be guessing she predates Hartnell but as a separate Time Lord who on dieing/ not regenerating, allowed the role/name to be taken by Hartnell’s Time Lord.

    In terms of an actual bonkers theory from me, RuthDoc may be a result of actions The Master has taken eg either destruction of Gallifrey or by interacting with whatever the ‘lie’ turns out to be. Perhaps by ‘solving’ the ‘lie’ The Doctor will cause the RuthDoc to disappear/never have happened (itself an emotional/ dramatic choice).

    Btw do we know how many seasons Chibnall (and Whittaker) are likely to do? Will they leave together?
    Not that I want either to leave, its just I’d imagine Chibnall would plan out his tenure for example “the first season will be x eg all wonder and ‘new’ and light and glee and new monsters; second season will be y (eg give Doctor mystery, introspection, Timelords and origin-story); last season will be z, (eg Daleks/ resolution of whatever stuff I need to untangle that I put in in first two seasons)”.

    Anyway, over to the Music Thread where I have another Kraftwerk tie-in

    #69362
    Whisht @replies

    …. and later that evenin’….

    (tbh I blame my sister although sadly I never appreciated her taste back when I was a kid)

    #69361
    Whisht @replies

    So, its Saturday.

    Get those glad-rags on!

    (ok ok, basically this came on my walkman earlier today and I thought “gawd this is a lot better than I remember”)

    #69356
    Whisht @replies

    So, I’ve managed to slog my way through a lot of backlog of music (though not the most recent ones)!

    @arbutus – awww Ella – smoky precision. And yes, I’m overly happy with that description. What tone.
    @craig – Maps is a great song; LOVED Mura Masa (reminded me of Sleaford Mods!).
    @phaseshift – that is an amazing mashup! I loved the Slayer one too! And really glad and appreciate you being back.
    @peacefrog – loads of songs(!) I love Jimi live; That Trumping Heads video is great! Neil Young with a good backing Band for once! no idea about Van Halen (I really am left cold by a lot/most heavy metal!). But will always listen to @thane16 so the fact the song doesn’t go anywhere..?
    Oh and I have good memories of Cowboy Junkies (I saw their 1st UK gig by accident) and an early PJ Harvey gig where she… she was awesome.

    @everyone else who I didn’t make notes about – that’s more to do with access to a pen than a comment on the music!

    Btw there is an interesting doc on BBC iPlayer (however that manifests itself in various regions) by Stewart Copeland (ie Police drummer). I’ve just seen the first episode and its a “why do we have music?” [a daft question and one that no sane person would ever ask, nor try to write the history of, no matter how abridged).

    {ahem}

    I particularly liked that he interviewed Pinker then stitched him up for being an eejit.
    ‘oh, so that wasn’t empirical that was a thought/ point of view you had?’ [he didn’t say but showed instead].

    Sorry but Pinker and Gladwell get on my chest area.

    Loved seeing Bobby McFerrin making kids happy through music too.

    Overall a ‘good thing’ to watch and not too taxing. But as I may have said in a previous post, David Byrne’s TED talk and book on this is probably the best I encountered (though too late before embarrassing myself!)

    #69314
    Whisht @replies

    still need to catch up on loads of songs here!

    But wanted to say well done to @jimthefish

    This isn’t a great song (unfortunately) but the title at least makes sense

    (but for a really good ‘doctor’ song then feel free to shimmy along to this!)

    congratulations!

    #69277
    Whisht @replies

    Just a shout-out to one of the most perfectly-cast roles I’ve seen recently.

    There’s a show called The Tick (I’ve been watching it on Amazon).
    Its silly.
    Juvenile.
    Daft.
    Stupid.
    Brilliant.

    Not all the characters are perfectly cast.

    But….

    Take a bow Peter Serafinowicz!

    He is completely awesome as The Tick and every second that big-blue-battler-of-brigands is on screen, has made me laugh out loud.

    And sometimes, that’s all you need.

    ;¬)

    #69270
    Whisht @replies

    he he yes @peacefrog – that’s kinda’ve a classic!

    ;¬)

    Here’s one (similar era) for the Fourth Doctor’s Birthday.

    Happy birthday Tom

    #69264
    Whisht @replies

    So, here’s one for Nikola Tesla’s Night of Terror.

    But that’s just for my bonkers “all the episodes are linked to Kraftwerk songs” theory.

    ;¬)

    Here’s a couple of very different ‘electric’ tunes.
    Spiritualised’s is a bit of a roller (cruel edit at end)

    and something maybe more cerebral from Reich (with a connection to everyone’s fave 90’s bliss-out choon)

    But maybe this is the worst least likely to be called to mind (and I don’t think this is the one I remember from the Electro tape we had), but here it is embedded in all its ‘glory’.

    #69262
    Whisht @replies

    @peacefrog – wow, lots of music for me to catch up on!

    Apologies I haven’t been around to listen or ping-pong back, but its obvious we have a lot of overlapping tastes (though I’ll admit to never yet getting into the Grateful Dead, so will listen to those songs to get inspired!!).

    Will try and listen soon and try and ‘reply’ with songs.

    :¬)

    #69261
    Whisht @replies

    So, I enjoyed this one more than the previous episodes this series. Would have to watch again to see if its the writing, direction or casting/acting, but it was ok.

    I can’t really add anything that anyone else has already said eg discomfort at lack of mindwipes when they were used before (though like most I think they’re problematic at best); Doctor seemingly threatening to kill the Queen; monster as (too)obvious reflection of human drama.

    Maybe I just enjoyed (the actor playing) Tesla!

    So, I can see there are bonkers theories swirling… all good!
    I assume it won’t be that there’s a different ‘superior’ alien race that has created Time Lords and Daleks through genetic experimentation and gifted Time tech (and so Master can’t be a ‘master’).
    But, maybe there is a bonkers link I’ve spotted and yes….

    its musical!

    ;¬)

    Basically, is Chibnall a Kraftwerk fan?

    Spyfall – Computer World
    (“Interpol and Deutsche Bank, FBI and Scotland Yard…
    Business, Numbers, Money, People…
    Computer World”)

    Orphan 55 – Radioactivity
    (“Chain reaction and mutation
    Contaminated population
    Stop radioactivity
    Is in the air for you and me”)

    Tesla – The Voice of Energy
    (“I am a giant electrical generator
    I supply you with light and power
    And I enable you to receive speech
    Music and image through the ether
    I am your servant and lord at the same time”)

    Just saying…

    [I may have to listen to a lot more Kraftwerk to see if I can come up with any ‘lie’ based theme.]

    #69126
    Whisht @replies

    Hi @peacefrog – ah, Karen O. I like Yeah Yeah Yeahs but only have the first album (I think).
    It reminded me (perhaps many things do!) of Mimi Goese when I saw her chanced upon this concert on TV ‘back-in-the-day’.
    (memories of hearing one song and scrabbling around on the carpet looking for a VHS to tape it on! The rest of it was amazing too – Durutti Column and David Byrne)

    As I say, it wasn’t fancy but… fascination

    Oh, and btw you mention the Beastie Boys and Pink Floyd’s Leslie amps so I think you may have also been bingeing on this while you were looking for choons (the one you found was great btw).

    #69098
    Whisht @replies

    and this is for….

    everyone

    thank you

    #69095
    Whisht @replies

    @thane16 – that’s a great version of La Marsellesa – and you’re right about the female choir needing more voices! But I loved the male singers barging in to begin with… and being barged back out.

    Its a great, stirring song. A real puff-your-chest-out-in-pride rabble rowser.

    And in no surprise to anyone who’s ever seen me post a song, here’s something less…

    … but with a killer bass to carry on @peacefrog ‘s earlier bass tracks (incl Jane’s Addiction as well as a soon-to-be-added-after-ripping-my-effing-cd-finally Femmes)!

    #69094
    Whisht @replies

    So, the opener Spyfall had a motorbike chase.

    That is enough of an excuse for these two slightly different songs.

    and this which is (surprise!) very tender.

    #69093
    Whisht @replies

    So Whisht, you haven’t commented on the episode.
    [Whisht shakes his head]

    Would you like to?
    [Whisht looks uncomfortable with being asked about the episode]

    Ok Whisht, its ok. Here’s a doll. Point to where the episode hurt you.

    [Whisht points to the doll’s head]
    Ah,
    [Whisht points to the heart]
    I see…
    [Whisht points to the ears]
    Hm, ok….
    [Whisht points to the eyes]

    Ok, OK. I get it. Nothing positive to add?
    [Whisht looks pained]

    Hm, no songs smart arse?
    [Whisht looks down]

    Hmmmm…. You didn’t add any songs for the opener either.
    It was a two parter! There were revelations! And no songs??
    [Whisht looks up – his eyes look bright for the first time]

    You have a song for the opener?
    [Whisht nods enthusiastically]

    Will it add to the enjoyment and insights people had for it?
    [Whisht looks down]

    Oh ffs its just a random piece of music tied to a search on your iTunes again isn’t it?

    [Whisht looks back at the doll. Orphan 55 still hurts]

    Stop sucking your thumb Whisht….

    #69064
    Whisht @replies

    Hey @peacefrog – Thanks so much for posting so much music!

    Always great to hear good choons – its a great Violent Femmes song and I do love the mixes on that Beastie Boys track and there’s even a Daniel Johnston cover!

    @arbutuswow – Not heard Lau before and that’s really piqued my interest!
    I really enjoyed how its folkiness is welded to something very different to what I’m used to when I think of ‘Folk’.

    All I have is a couple of tunes I found when searching for ‘words-related-to-an-episode’.
    Though I think I’ve done the first one one before so methinks there was an episode with a “tranquility” link!

    And we’re all about the independent women here!

    #68654
    Whisht @replies

    @pedant – my parents were economic migrants.
    My dad caught the thick end of abuse.

    Fuck off.

    You called me an enabler of racism.

    Fuck off.

    I’ll listen to music and reply to that but fuck off.

    Merry xmas

    #68653
    Whisht @replies

    {sigh}
    I can’t edit the end of my post so just to make clear(er)(er) I wasn’t saying that Blue used “they” arguments (at least if she did, I wasn’t referring to it).

    I disagree with her arguments about Brexit for a number of separate reasons.
    I was trying to reply to her previous answer to me, but her comments were written in a way that I needed to read them a few times to be sure I understood where she was arguing from (that’s not a slight on her writing – definitely my ability to read and argue).
    It also meant I had to think about my own reasoning and question my own assumptions and prejudices.

    time passes.

    If I don’t reply that doesn’t mean I agree.

    Likewise if I don’t reply to something, that doesn’t mean “oh, I don’t mind you calling me an enabler of racism. No, that’s fine, you go right ahead. What me? no, why would I think ‘Fuck you’? Oh you just meant I was stupid? nah, that’s fine too”

    #68651
    Whisht @replies

    @pedant @thane16
    Can I be clear(er)?

    In my anecdote, when the person made the comments about the strain on local services and it being the fault of “the Poles and Lithuanians”, my family member and myself both made the point that the person’s belief needed to extend to… my family member, two other people in the conversation and others they’d mentioned who had also moved to the town.
    It. Was. Challenged.

    IN fact we discussed the nuances that indeed, in London at least, Polish immigrants had caused more-than-expected strain on A&E as it was common for them to go to A&E as a first-port-of-call for health. They were not used to using a GP for healthcare (I can’t now remember why, but may be to do with provison, access, cost, trust).
    We actually had a nuanced conversation with the whole group. Some things people had heard/read were lies, some were true, some overblown. But within a few minutes we covered quite a lot off ground because we fusking listened to each other.

    What we didn’t do was simply shout “RACIST!” as if its some sort of game of “how many did you spot today?”.
    What we did was engage, listen, understand why they felt what they felt and challenged it in those terms. Did we change that person’s view? Maybe. A bit. It will need more people saying similar things to that person.

    Do I always challenge racists? No. In fact over xmas I’m likely to hear a family member say something racist and in the interests of not causing a scene, every other person within earshot will go silent, swallow and move on.
    Am I proud of that?
    No.

    If you’d like, if it happens this xmas I can post the incident here and you can shout “Racist!” together and then “Snap!” as that’s a fun family game people play at xmas.

    Oh and by the way, I also disagree with @bluesqueakpip ‘s assertions with Brexit.
    Because its not just “they’re all stupid. They’re all racists. They’re all principled.”
    If you’re saying “they” then check yourself. At least that’s what I’d like to think I do, because as soon as you say “they” you’re on a slippery slope.

    I’m not replying to much more of my own anecdote.

    #68644
    Whisht @replies

    Hi @pedant

    Well, I realise that I’ve left an important part out.
    I guess I tried to use the anecdotal info along with the general, as “they” are not a homogeneous bloc.
    And yes, I mean “they” in every sense of Poles, Blacks, Muslims, ‘others’… Leavers.

    The group I was talking with were lumping all the Poles and Lithuanians together as ‘them’, but they were uncomfortable with their own feelings. At least one was, who knew he was being xenophobic, but at the same time had the feelings, but knew it was wrong. I genuinely think he was trying to navigate his own feelings, worries and thoughts of ‘what should be done’.

    Now he’s just one person (and the others were just 5-6 more) and all had varying shades of this.
    It didn’t mean we didn’t argue with them that they needed to think of the individuals and ‘what should be done’ in those terms, how arguments were false/ lies/ not as simple as put forth.

    None used weasel words. They used words like ‘them’ and seeing my/ my family member’s reaction (and maybe a reaction of others in the conversation) knew what they’d said and knew it was wrong.

    Sadly, I don’t think its up to the people who have helped use nativism/ xenophobia/ racism to help further their goals. Unfortunately its up to the rest of us to convince everyone else that those things are stupid. Literally, bigotry is people being ‘dumb’, as-in not thinking.

    Perhaps even more sadly, does it mean I wouldn’t want to punch Cummings/ Bannon if I ever saw them?
    No – I probably would get to a level of anger I’ve rarely been to, where I’ve frozen, then shaken then roared in frustration/anger. Maybe I’d even do what I’ve never done and actually punched someone.
    Would that achieve any positive results?
    No.
    Would I feel sorry for them if I finally in my life unleashed fury upon them?
    No.
    And I’m not proud of that.

    #68639
    Whisht @replies

    Hi @bluesqueakpip et al
    As it was my anecdote, I think I do need to be explicit about what I mean (I’ve already failed in my writing once on this. I guess I’ll probably get it wrong twice but here goes!).

    [Alonsy perhaps…]

    Basically I have family living in Northampton and Yorkshire (also elsewhere).
    I was speaking to the Northampton friends-of-family and it was they who mentioned the ‘Poles’ and the ‘Lithuanians’. They probably didn’t use the word ‘uncomfortable’ about themselves, but it was one that I thought described their feelings.
    However. They didn’t worry about the new neighbours who were from London, Scotland, South East England, Yorkshire and elsewhere (who we know). Apparently there were quite a few people moving in from other parts of the Midlands.
    They also didn’t talk about the families from Poznan, Katowice, Warsaw etc. Simply ‘Poles’ as if they were all the same.
    That is the xenophobia (at least in my view) that I refer to. They are ‘other’ in not being native to Northampton, but lumped together (unlike the British migrants).

    So I guess I was trying to allude to how people don’t think of themselves as xenophobic, but if you’re lumping groups of ‘others’ together who ‘weren’t born here’ then (in my view) that’s what you are.

    I then mentioned how the spread of far right, populism, nativism, racism etc is on the rise.
    If that conflated with “all Leavers are racist” then apologies, it wasn’t my intent.

    My intent was to say that my knowledge is personal and limited! I’ve spoken with a few people in a particular town(s) and have read Guardian, BBC and right-wing dominated media (esp Telegraph headlines which are shocking), as well as pieces about rise in far right, populism, nativism etc. In my view, a lot of the ‘fuel’ for Leave narrative/ argument-for was xenophobic and keyed into xenophobia of large sections of society.

    I totally agree that we need to understand why people wanted to Leave, because (in my view) its highly likely that ‘Leaving’ will solve the problems that they thought it would.
    In order to do that we must be empathetic towards them as much as possible.

    Perhaps that’s where my initial “they aren’t racist but… uncomfortable” was trying (very badly) to get at.
    We need to understand people from their point of view, not demonise them. That does not mean we need to agree with them or give excuses for them. We must constantly challenge the assertions if they are xenophobic.
    But we aren’t going to learn or move toward the world we want (where there is no xenophobia or racism) without understanding people’s fears and countering them and offering a better alternative.

    #68627
    Whisht @replies

    and something I know I’ve never posted as I only found it the other week(!) while looking for something else.

    I need this album!

    (not trying to bring the mood down again, but this is a lovely slice of soul)

    #68626
    Whisht @replies

    and other songs I’ve posted before, but are ones that are about feeling better (a feeling I need) and simply joyous.

    That share a tuba.

    Tuba??

    Yeah, tuba.

    #68625
    Whisht @replies

    @blenkinsopthebrave
    You are a wise man.
    Music that makes us feel good.
    A Morricone piece that always makes me smile is this, though its for the visuals too…

    The juxtaposition of the sheer beauty of music and Claudia Cardinale to the place she’s landed in… I dunno. I just always liked that.

    #68624
    Whisht @replies

    @pedant – thanks again for the Dixie Chicks.
    And thanks for the ever-prompt to check lyrics (I do mean this without any sarcasm or humour or whatever – I know text on a screen and my usual-tone might make it seem something other, but I do genuinely mean it).

    I realise that the only thing I have close to the Dixie Chicks in sound terms is REM.
    Or maybe B52s (though they’re more ’50’s but they do have a country twang at times… maybe.)

    hmm.
    Thanks again

    #68623
    Whisht @replies

    ah, @pedant my wording, my bad.

    “They’re not racist but… they’re uncomfortable”

    I can’t get back into my head and so can’t exactly remember what I was trying to get at.
    Whatever I was doing I was being too clever by half.

    Maybe I was trying to write a phrase with far too many things ‘between the lines’ (or ellipses).

    So, while I don’t think that the
    “country morphed practically overnight into a bunch of racist, far right, nationalist loons” (@bluesqueakpip being a tad hyperbolic for effect), I do think that some people, the people I spoke with in Northampton (and in Yorkshire) were xenophobic. They were definitely xenophobic toward the Poles and Lithusanians they mentioned coming into their towns.
    And sadly, xenophobia and racism is back on the rise in England.
    Its shameful.

    Bigotry in the forms of xenophobia and racism were always under the surface. I’d hoped that being under the surface they would slowly die through a lack of use over the generations.
    However that bigotry has been weaponised by the right wing and Tory party to maintain power. On the Left, there’s an admission they have a problem with antisemitism (probably linked to support of Palestinians).

    The Brexit campaigns tapped into that bigotry.
    It wasn’t the only thing being argued about (Blue mentions principled stances on political concerns).
    However, it was the loudest and the most damaging. I don’t remember ever hearing much of a coherent argument for principled reasons to leave the EU (a lot of empty phrases and lies).
    But there was a lot of xenophobia and racism.
    The aftermath campaigns also tapped into the bigotry again as Blue mentions (blaming supporters for being bigots).

    Anyway… all very sad. Far Right on the rise here too.

    merry xmas etc etc

    #68609
    Whisht @replies

    Hi @lisa – here’s another source of info on Boris.
    Here’s a least one site and journalist (Peter Oborne) trying to keep up with the lies he tells.
    Also he’s not as smart as his posh tones would suggest, but is lazy (as has been recorded by tutors, fellow students and even in a documentary when he was Foreign Secretary).

    One hope that I’m clutching onto, is based on the fact that Boris Johnson is massively opportunistic. He has always wanted to lead the country and now he is. But he has shown how he will stab people in the back (Gove during Referendum) and renege on promises (too many to list). The most egregious broken promise may be to the DUP. He voted against Teresa May’s negotiated agreement because it would leave a border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. He said no Tory leader would ever countenance such a betrayal. This ‘red line’ was one reason many doubted he could negotiate a different Withdrawal Agreement. It was only when the EU realised he was willing to break that red line that they opened up negotiations again thus creating a ‘border down the Irish Sea’.

    I mentioned ‘hope’! My hope is that he’ll blow in the media wind and we’ll end up without too damaging a withdrawal from the EU or Trade deal.
    I mentioned I was clutching, but I don’t believe that Boris particularly believes anything enough to ‘die in a ditch’ over something.
    Of course, the same thing could lead to us crashing out in a very damaging way.

    #68608
    Whisht @replies

    @pedant – argh, I missed the Housemartins! You may be interested (or not!) to know that you and this forum has meant that whenever I listen to anything posted (especially by you) I tend to open up another tab for the lyrics!
    And @thane16 – I also missed your Joy Division. I really need to listen to more Joy Division. I wasn’t in to them at the time, but there’s no excuse not listening now.

    #68607
    Whisht @replies

    ooh – lots of great music here!!

    @pedant
    The Cocker is… amazing. I think that’s the word I’m left with.
    How many do I need to buy/ download??!?
    Also the Dixie Chicks – I’ll admit I’m not a fan but always good to need to listen to music I don’t think I’ll like. I need to confront my prejudices far more often and I cannot fault the sentiment in the song!

    @thane16 – That Hammer music is wonderful! Its exactly what I have in mind when I think of ‘horror’!! It also somehow conjures up some fantasy-eastern-Europe of castles and mountains and…. things that go bump in the night.

    @blenkinsopthebrave – it was great hearing this straight after the Hammer music. A real change and obviously its very Glass!
    Its kinda romantic (though not Romantic) and doom-laden in a reserved way, but with some fluttering hope.. or is it passionate love.. or just a victim?!?

    Both of these made me go back and listen to The Thing. I’d not realised it was a Morricone composition! But I think Carpenter probably had a heavy hand on it – if nothing else the motif of the synth-throb. This is a bit long and as its not Morricone’s ‘best evah’ people can feel free to pass! But if you’re somewhere cold wanting to listen to cold, or somewhere hot wanting to chill, this will leave you… freezing.

    In terms of Dracula-related songs…. well, this is a bit silly.

    #68596
    Whisht @replies

    Hi @lisa – I’m typing while needing to do something else so massive apologies if thsi is rushed.
    Will write better tomorrow.

    Blue post definintely needs attention too!

    But just wanted to say from my standpoint – you can dip in and out of here just like everyone else does. No hierarchy. If someone joins tomorrow I’ll read their post just as closely as someone who was here from the beginning.

    I think you need to get sources of info other than your friend. It sounds like you’re getting a single source and just so you know, I know a few people in DoH and none of them think Brexit is ‘good’ for NHS (in and of itself). That’s not to ssay I know everyone, nor that they know more than your sister, just that there are valid other views.

    gottta go as my typos I can see lots of red and its annoying me(!) but I really gotta go.
    But also Johnson is an incredibly dangerous poilitician. I won’t suggest equivalences with Trumop but Johnson lies because he enjoys the attention and sees no problem with lying.
    This is incredibly dangerous. Especially for a politician.

    sorry for rushing reply

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