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Excuse me while I dance a little jig.

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@bluesqueakpip

Hmmm. I can’t help thinking of the Irishman asked for directions who replies “Well, I wouldn’t start from here.”

I don’t think it unreasonable that a country with a centuries long tradition of taking in refugees (whether officially or through the efforts of Nicholas Winton et al) permits itself an element of “our house, our rules” and that France has woefully over-cooked this (to placate those who may vote FN) does not negate that.

That isn’t really the issue: it is about asking someone to choose: in or out, with us or against us, black or white, human or Zygon. That is a fundamentalists position, and Osgood rejected it.

I fell out with the Labour Party when its Christian fundamentalists leader team up with another Christian Fundamentalist leader to launch a war agains a Secular fundamentalist, crippling its war against a Muslim fundamentalist and thus allowing another group of Muslim fundamentalists to step in, provoking a Russian nationalist fundamentalist to stick its oar in with predictably tragic consequences. And you don’t even need different core philosophies: Protestant/Catholic, Sunni/Shia, Stalinist/ Maoist, Bolshevik/Menshevik.

The instance on being one or the other, with or against,  what Osgood challenged.

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@bluesqueakpip @purofilion

Yes, I see your reasoning. But it seems to be the more profound question is about identity: what is it to be a person? To be a Zygon? To be sentient?

Moffatt has stated that one of his ‘things’ is that the bad guys do not know that they are bad guys (and if you think about it, the Daleks are essentially massively abused Kaleds. There’s an awful lot of psychology that says that the abused becomes the abuser). From their point of view the Zygons are doing what Zygons do, nothing more nothing less, and the status quo ante will always try to assert itself.

But… but…

So what does it mean to be a Zygon?

What does it mean to work for UNIT?

And does it really matter?

What does it mean to be a muslim?

What does it mean to be a secularist?

And does it really matter?

Osgood’s refusal to choose was really potent and I hope Moff has the chops to go follow through (but would have no particular objection to your scenario either – it just seems a bit obvious in a story that has drunk deep of its obvious quota).

In this respect Moff has the potential to be a few steps ahead of Richard Dawkins, whose small-minded conservatism is becoming increasingly embarrassing to those of us who have been atheists since we were eight.

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@purofilion

..but “an unmodifiable state” —

As much part of being male as the Y chromosome. There is absolutely nothing we can do to prevent being 12(1).

One mild disappointment of the great loft clear-out was failure to find my Thunderbird 3. I had a vague plan to put it on Ebay, described as “Thunderbird 3, plastic, original 1960s model. Rather battered, no packaging. Played with constantly in a distant childhood. No for sale at any price”.

Just to piss off collectors.

Like I said, 12.

 

 

 

(1) May not apply to transgender folk.

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@purofilion

I blame Twitter.

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@purofilion

-kids at 13 trying to figure out what to do with their future?

1. Work out what girls are for (or boys, as appropriate);

2. er…that’s it.

Remember all males over the age of 11 are 12 years old. It is a permanent and un-modifiable state.

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@pixiecutlover

Careful. You will get sore feet from all that stamping.

Seriously, though. Are they just letting anybody into the troll clubs now? Standards have plummeted.

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@bluesqueakpip

No, I think it is a sound artistic choice as well. The questions it raises are far more interesting.

@jphamlore

I don’t disagree, but it is possible Remaining!Osgood is trying to re-write the rules.

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@purofilion

They are there for artistic effect.

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@purofilion @bluesqueakpip @spacedmunkee @kharis

I think the explanation that they have (thus far) gone with is the best : it doesn’t matter which one was killed. To answer that would be to answer the wrong question.

 

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@PixieCutLover

I think if perhaps you tried to refrain from Tweeting during the show you will come to understand what is actually happening a little better.

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@geoffers @lisa

And bear in mind that Clara may well have been upgraded with some Dalek nanotech.

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@purofilion

love those words: “there’s nothing better on the other side.”

That’s English idiom (we say “turn over” rather than “change channels” too!)

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@cybercat

Well, as far as I know, it’s not been ruled out – so it’s possible! 😉

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@cybercat

That’s not the original Clara in the egg thing. They are producing replicas human/zygons – experimenting? So they don’t have to use an original?

So the Zygons could be the makers of the Claricles…?

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@drben

I believe this has been noted before and, of course, there was Zygon!Osgood’s tormenting of Human!Osgood with talk of her prettier, more successful, sister…

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I’m with @blenkinsopthebrave

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@soundworld

Darn it, Firefox keeps trying to Americanise (with a ‘z’) my English.

There is a “British” English dictionary available for FF, but as it happens “z” is perfectly acceptable usage – just not at all fashionable.

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@purofilion

Oh you must see They Live. It is glorious. John Carpenter at his most impish. Speaking of whom, have you seen Dark Star?

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@soundworld

Knowing ourselves better is of course the Fool’s journey, as we have been discussing this series

As the Gentleman from Tralfamadore put it: “Anybody who has traveled this far on a fool’s errand … has no choice but to uphold the honor of fools…”

And – somewhat on point here – Kurt, rather more directly in one of the great works of American literature: “No art is possible without a dance with death.”

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@blenkinsopthebrave

Knowing where to find != Having a positive ID.

Jus’ sayin’

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@blenkinsopthebrave

can his shades reveal distinguish a zygon from a human…?

I think that is how he knew the school kids were a bit over-age.

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@mersey

 This case is not yet closed as 9/11. And what is really painful everyone knows who is responsible for that but probably no one will be punished.

Sorry – missed this.

Perfectly true, but not the point. The use of imagery is the issue.

The image of the anti-aircraft missile vs the image of The Wall of The Missing

The image of the hostage video vs the imagine of the new president being sworn in (that shot in BSG, was based directly in the swearing in of Johnson in Dallas)

Art is informed by the real world (and, when things are working properly, vice versa). And it must always be fearless, or it fails.

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@mersey @purofilion

“One slip, one word in the wrong sentence, and the family next door would be gone the next morning and all the neighbours would act as if nothing had happened”.

So you think I’m a cowardly inferior from eastern Europe. I’m not sure whether my czech and slovak neighbours would be glad if they knew that they’re cowards and the best thing to do is to run away from them. Still Czechs survived as one nation over 1000 years sharing borders with such countries as Germany and Poland.

Funny you should mention Sontaran Stratagem. There’s a scene with Martha in which she’s examining a polish worker who is acting as a robot. So that’s how you see foreigners from central Europe. As cowards or machines who are too thick to learn your language.

I think I speak for all of us here when I say (to quote Oz, from Buffy the Vampire Slayer): That’s a radical interpretation of the text.

Nobody here has sad that, nor anything remotely like it.

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@sirclockface

Nah, Moffat’s had this story brewing since before the 50th and if there was a Clara switcheroo it would need to be properly foreshadowed. And Clara wasn’t in the room when the Zygons and Humans came together, but in the Tardis and on Gallifrey (or rather in the painting). She came in with the Doctors.

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@purofilion

“Slash” is a form of fanfic. It involves rudity.

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@ichabod @bluesqueakpip @purofilion

And given that right now it is comedians – on the stand-up circuit and people like John Stewart and John Oliver – have spend the last 7 or 8 years doing the job that journalists have totally failed to do, it is even more justified.

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@purofilion

some combo of Superman and Flash Gordon

So that would be Slash Gordon then? Fanfic writers heads explode…

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@purofilion

There’s a bit of a clue in the picture…. See the honking great “S”?

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@mersey

And lest you doubt @jimthefish on the real risk of nuclear war when the Daleks came along, there’s this. Indeed treating such serious material seriously seems very timely:

http://video.pbs.org/video/2295274962/

“27 October at 12:25

53 years ago today, at the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis, second-in-command Vasili Arkhipov of the Soviet submarine B-59 refused to agree with his Captain’s order to launch nuclear torpedos against US warships and beginning a nuclear war between the superpowers.

The US had been dropping depth charges near the submarine in an attempt to force it to surface, unaware it was carrying nuclear arms. The Soviet officers, who had lost radio contact with Moscow, concluded that World War 3 had begun, and 2 of the officers agreed to ‘blast the warships out of the water’. Arkhipov refused to agree – unanimous consent of 3 officers was required – and thanks to him, we are here to talk about it.”

Separately I read somewhere that the Soviet Union’s standing orders were that if the US attempted to land on Cuba, then the response had to be nuclear. The 1960s were an incredibly dangerous era – probably more so than today on many levels. Pointedly referencing current fears isn’t really materially different from the Battlestar Galactica mini-series freely using imagery rooted in 9/11.

Not convinced the Doc is a Zygon, but reckon he has a cunning-but-risky plan (presumably involving Osgood’s Little Box Of Mystery).

And it has just occurred to me with a great bid “Duh!” *Thud*: Truth or Consequences c/w Trick or Treat. Somebody knew the broadcast date and remembered to be a bit subtle.

 

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@sirclockface

I hope we remember that two Clara’s walked out of the 50th

How do you work that out? (There is a small possibility I just had a re-watch)

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Teaserette from the Beeb:

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@jimbomcmaster

If 20 million Zygons are now living on Earth,

Not even 30 days of population growth at current rates.

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Yes, it’s as well to remember that those of us raised on a diet of metaphor and undercurrent are just that: raised. There are many still with some raisin’ to be done.

As Ketho said in The Dispossessed: “They say there is nothing new under any sun. But if each life is not new, each single life, then why are we born?”

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Well, the writing would have benefit a little from more subtlety, but that may be from an adult perspective. Da Yoofs might prefer it slapped on with a trowel.

But a damned good episode other than that (I suspected for a moment that @bluesqueakpip had been psychic when Clara started acting a bit…odd.)

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@doctordoctorwho

And do you know where we don’t put spoilers ***AT ALL****? (@Craig/ @jimthefish …wave yer wands)

 

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Well. That should piss the UKIPers off…

 

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This is a bit random and not sure where it popped up from but…

What if, rather than Clara dying or being “Donna’d”, it is the Doctor who will forget Clara and the Claricles (which is why she has never been noticed in the last 50 years or so….)?

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@randypan

Oh, you Objectivists.  Thinking concrete right and wrong can be applied to everything.

Oh God, of course. I should have recognised the dogmatic certainty a disciple of the Emotionally Damaged 12 Year Old Who Never Got The Psychiatric Help She So Obviously Needed.

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The thing with Malcolm Gladwell’s books is that they are both good and original – but the bits that are good aren’t original and the bits that are original are complete and total bollocks (especially the 10,000 hours thing – not actual science (though fine as a fictional conceit).

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@ichabod

just not so damn *many* of them.

Really? I had no difficulty keeping them straight (well, except the gay one, obviously). And Alison Hendrix is one of the great TV characters of recent years.

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@purofilion

I first saw it after seeing it listed on totallylegitimatedownload sites and reading a few positive comments, but having no clue what it was about. Work finished early so I thought “I’ll watch a couple of episodes before tea to see if I like it”.

Ten episodes later is was 2:30am.

And that first season still has it.

As I recall S2 struggled a bit not because of the cast or concept, but because Rob Thomas started to indulge the so-far-up-their-own-arses-they-can-brush-their-teeth-from-behind tossers at Television Without Pity. (My Region 1 season 2 seems to have gone walkabout in the move).

Edit: Orphan Black is a BBC America production and Tatiana Maslany is quite amazing in the lead.

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@plainolddave

Ordinarily at this point one of the locals would hand you your arse. But you have managed to be so egregiously wrong on pretty well everything that you can collect yours from reception.

You are beginning to look like that nasty pest the On Topic Troll.

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I have just had my first “more than one (half) pint” evening for about 10 years.

WHEN THE FUCK DID BEER GET THAT EXPENSIVE!?!?!?!?!?!?!

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@sirclockface

the Doctor is Davros

Ber-limey. Well, this is The Home of Bonkers Theorising(tm)

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@denvaldron

The ratings this season have been between 2/3 and 1/2 of previous seasons.

Oh for heaven’s sake. Please try to understand how ratings are put together before commenting. Who’s viewership has been around the 7-8m mark since the return, other than a substantial peak during the Tennent exits specials (to around 11m).

However, in 2005 there was no iPlayer, very little downloading compared to later years (usenet vs BitTorrent) and, of course, genre shows have particularly geeky viewers. Also, this:

since other programs don’t seem to suffer the same erosion.

Is simply wrong. All shows are seeing the same phenomenon. Even “reality” shows are getting sucked in now: if there is no phone vote they are getting time-shifted.

And they all got blown away by the Rugby World Cup.

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@plainolddave

This is Doctor Who, not a chick flick.

That’s the sort of gnat-brained fuckwittery that makes you look like a relative of the underbridge family.

Desist.

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@fatmaninabox

That is genius!

@craig.

Gonna need a new pub soon.

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So over the past couple of days I have been able to prove scientifically, with science, that it is impossible to watch just the first couple of episodes of Veronica Mars season 1.

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@nerys @purofilion @sirclockface (who has also floated the “she’s still a Dalek” theory)

There are also of course, the “stalky thing sticking out the the forehead” Daleks, who do not know they are Daleks until activated.

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