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Just a note on the eels. If, in the UK, or the US, or Australia, a thriving Colony of electric eels was discovered in a River, what would they be called from an environmental perspective?

Invasive species. Invasive species are plants, animals, or pathogens that are non-native (or alien) to the ecosystem under consideration and whose introduction causes or is likely to cause harm

So this story features a bunch of invaders (Vikings) battling a bunch of invaders (mire) by using a bunch of invaders (eels). Something meta to this series perhaps.

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@bluesqueakpip

Great Scot! The Fox is a great possibility.

Apparently it’s Back to the Future day, as this is the day in the future that Marty McFly visited in the second film. The Guardian are running a live blog of all the keeerrazzy things happening around the world.

I think I’ll jump on my hoverboard to travel tonight. It’ll make a change. Anybody else got something planned?

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I think one of the interesting things here is that most of us at some level feel that the Doctor interfering in the balance of life and death is a bad choice that will somehow rebound upon him. There is a big mirror here though, because Clara effectively did the same thing for the Doctor. Pleading with the Time Lords for more life without his knowledge. She gave him additional life when he seemed reconciled about his death.

I think the continued references to his new status as ‘possibly’ immortal due to some clerical error is as much of an issue as it was when I thought I detected it in Listen (in Orsons ship as it is about to decompress).

If Ashildr is going to be resentful towards the Doctor, can we mirror some resentment from the Doctor to Clara? going to be resentful towards the Doctor, can we mirror some resentment from the Doctor to Clara?

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@bluesqueakpip

I think Gallifrey is already one of the entrants in the ‘a spaceman did it and ran away’ theory of human evolution, though I can’t quite recall which story.

Off hand, I can’t think of a story that suggested that, but it was stated in Underworld that they did go through a phase in ancient times of playing God with a race called Minyans, so it can’t be ruled out.

Doctor Who has so many beings and entities claiming credit for dabbling with our DNA and guiding our development (off the top of my head Daemons, Fendahl, Scaroth, Silence and I’m not even trying here) that it’s no wonder we’re a bit messed up as a species.

Hell, when Adric went joyriding in that space freighter and crashed into the Earth, he killed the Dinosaurs and opened up an evolutionary niche for us. Luckily for them, Homo Reptilia had been scared by a huge space egg moving into orbit and decamped downstairs for a bit of a kip before Adric’s high speed jinks.

You know, reading this, and fully acknowledging the absurdities of the show old and new, and that the Earth of the Universe the Doctor occupies is a bit different to ours, I can’t bring myself to get hung up on a Viking with a horned helmet, or the fact that its Northern Europe had electric eels.

Let’s be honest, Vikings having horned helmets in the Whoniverse is actual ‘canon’ for those keeping score on these things. (I actually think that’s what the trouser reference was about, to be honest).

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@arbutus

I wonder if this monster/villain conversation is deserving of a place on its own blog? I’m having a hard time keeping track of it and it is a fascinating discussion!

Because the forum systems and blog systems are slightly different, my understanding is that we can’t transfer comments between the two. I think if the general consensus favoured it we could start a new general forum topic (like the companions one) and I could move them into it.

We try to keep topics to a healthy minimum though, so I’ll wait for feedback from @craig.

One benefit of moving is that it may prolong our stay in The Cloven Hoof. Page 18 is the metaphorical start of the owner of the hostelry pointedly collecting empty glasses. Page 19 the not so subtle coughs and looking at the big clock over the bar. 🙂

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I really struggled with ideas for this week. Beer helped, because this is a fun romp, and I could tie up this and next week with musical comedy courtesy of the rather excellent Horrible Histories.

So first we have an exploration of the Vikings..literally!

And, after a short sketch on Newgate, we go all Adam and the Ants with a look at a rather famous Highwayman. Highly recommended

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I can’t believe I glossed over the Ghosts idea for the last couple of weeks @whisht and @scaryb

Love this track. And I’ll give some serious drinking thinking time to the monsters idea @whisht.

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Oh yes! Who else gave a drunken cheer at “reverse the polarity of the neutron flow”?

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@juniperfish

I’m looking at the new series Big Finish stuff and wondering how much damage my bank balance can take. River Song AND the War Doctor. Bugger!

I must admit though that the testosterone line made me laugh. I couldn’t help but think of the typical warrior race, like the Klingons and think, well, yeah.

Funny that Who made a warrior race and made them reproduce by cloning. Asexual, and able to gene splice to create enormous amounts of lactic fluid.

I think there may be a lesson for us all in that one. Not quite sure what it is though. 😀

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Just on names (a strand of theory that has never let me down, except you know, always)

Ashildr

Derived from Old Norse áss “god” combined with Old Norse hildr “battle”.

God of battle = Minister of War?

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I actually thought it was enjoyable enough though. I particularly thought the baby translation stuff worked well, echoing the dinosaur translation in Deep Breath, which the episode then referenced.

I don’t know what it was but watching the Doctor address the parade reminded me of this from Red Dwarf. I kept expecting the Doctor to demand Heidi ‘drop and give him fifty’

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Hmmmmm – so potentially the hybrid cometh. Early. On the other hand an obvious misdirection by Moffat, because it can’t be that simple can it.

I’ll agree with @miapatrick. A really peculiar episode that, on the surface light and frothy, a bit of a romp. Underneath though a huge amount to talk about. Consider that in the last episode the Doctor acussed the Fisher King of interfering in the natural balance of life and death.

And here he is, doing the same thing. Bestoing the ‘gift’ of immortality, that he has long since railled against. The Sisterhood of Karn, for instance, he managed to convince them that death should be considered a Mercy and a natural phenomenon that was necessary for change.

The explanation of the face fits the idea that he frowned that face as a reminder of the need for compassion in the face of disaster, but the circumstances for this gift are peculiar. And troublesome when taken in context for his dialogue with Clara.

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@whisht @scaryb @jimthefish @denvaldron

Yes, great comments. I’d particularly point to Jim’s point that 80s who lost some currency because those touchstone references became too distant.

When you look at the first appearance by the Daleks, they not only refer to the war Holmes, Dicks and Nation lived through, but the ultimate war to come. A nuclear war that would leave petrified forests, radiation and mutation. I think it was Verity or David Whittaker who vetoed a strand of the first Dalek story that would have seen Ian ask the Doctor if this is what humanity would become. It was too dark, and possibly too much an obvious play on HG Wells Time Machine (for Thals read Elloi and Daleks read Morlocks). These days, the cold war fears of mutual annihilation seem so distant, even from the 80s when it seemed inevitable.

I think the Cybermen’s legacy was cemented by the fact that the first story they were in killed the Doctor. Before he was the first Doctor, as it were. Now that’s a legacy.

A psychology student friend of mine pointed out that automatonophobia is a great boon to the show because it seems to be an inbuilt fear in humans. You recognise the silhouette of a human standing very still. Your fear response kicks in because this means one of your own species is stalking you (yes, examine the evolutionary psychology of that statement). Gasp of relief, it’s a mannequin, or a statue, or a dummy. Over the years you condition yourself to exclude the inanimate from the threat index against your primal brain instincts. Then one day an Auton, a ventriloquists dummy or a statue moves. Your brain short circuits.

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@purofilion

“fired by the BBC” Colin Baker. Really! Why? This wasn’t some regeneration thing….was it? Something else?

For more information on that one have a link to a discussion on the Faces strand on the sixth doctor. With a note of caution that this is the era of the show I had most problems with. To say the least.

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@jphamlore

I’m more trying to understand the stories of the Fourth Doctor and how time works. Back then both the Doctor and the Time Lords in Genesis of the Daleks seemed to think he could change the Daleks past, perhaps even wipe them out, and the Doctor and the Jagaroth in City of Death seemed to think it was possible the Jagaroth could save his ship to prevent the creation of complex life on Earth.

I don’t know if this is of any interest, but I attempted to cover this question of whether the Doctor changes time or not in a site blog. I’ve always believed the weight of evidence suggests he does, and it goes back even further than the stories you mention. Back to Hartnell and The Space Museum

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@bluesqueakpip @arbutus +all

Thanks for the bigup @bluesqueakpip, but I think you’ve summarised my feelings with

but I don’t think the dominant culture of the Time Lords is portrayed as a good one, or one that is likely to produce good individuals.

When we met our first female Time Lord in Invasion of Time she’s passively watching a war fleet on its way to destroy another planet. Leela asks her how they can stop them. She’s quite horrified at the thought of intervention and finds the potential deaths boring. No compassion.

I’d disagree with @lisa that Romana was naturally good. When she arrives in the Key to Time she’s possessed of that TL arrogance and disdain for other cultures and for the Doctors lifestyle. She doesn’t think they should get involved and should stay focused on the mission. It’s only later (after her regeneration) that she gets the taste for adventure and interest in the places he takes her to. In the end she becomes her own sort of Doctor and rebels against a TL return order.

So what makes the Doctor different? There is actually far more information about the Doctors early life throughout the show than people would believe delivered in off the cuff comments.

Madame du Pompadour said he was a lonely child, which tends to be supported by the third Doctor’s comments that he spent a lot of his youth talking to an old hermit who lived in the mountains. He’d run up the mountains every day to work out what he was meditating on. Not the actions of a child who had lots of friends, perhaps?

This Gallifreyan opened the youthful Doctor’s eyes to the wonders of the world around him and is likely the same guy who told the Doctor some of the lost stories of Gallifrey of long ago. Admirable interventions like their war against the Great Vampires, and darker stuff like the dirty secret of the Death Zone. This hermit eventually ran away from Gallifrey himself and they meet again in Planet of the Spiders.

Listen just augments that knowledge that he was lost and lonely. If he’d had some insight given to him by the hermit on TL nature, either army or academy may have held fears. He didn’t excel at much in the Academy but seems to have left an impression on his tutors. He and the Master used to sabotage each other’s works as practical jokes. He spent some time after graduation as a Time Lord, even getting them to intervene on occasion by being a monumental pain in the backside (banning miniscopes as an offense to sentient life, for instance, as revealed in Carnival of Monsters).

So he’s part of society, but perhaps on the radical side of things. Runcible in Deadly Assassin recalls a ‘bit of bother’ – a scandal. Invisible Enemy sees the Doctor show Leela around his brain. A part of it that should allow him to telepathically link with other Time Lords has been cauterized. ‘When they kicked me out’. Out of what isn’t specified, but you can’t help speculating that these indicate that the Doctor was a marginalised Time Lord before running.

Ultimately though, every rebel needs a mentor. To challenge them to be something more. The Doctor had the hermit and then humans. Romana, and many others, had the Doctor.

What’s interesting is that the Doctor, our role model, appears to be written out of TL history. Castellan Spandrell hears he was involved in the Omega incident and doesn’t know he’s the hero. He thinks he’s a criminal. Borusa rewrote the events of Deadly Assassin to make Goth the hero, rather than give kudos to the rebel Prydonian. Many Gallifreyans, if they know of him, may fear the Doctor. He can’t be allowed to be a folk hero to his own people, who fear challenge to the status quo.

What they need is a teacher. Someone to tell them stories of a madman in a blue box. Someone, like the hermit, to tell the dark history of the TLs to a new generation. Step forward Clara?

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@blenkinsopthebrave

Just on the Borg thing, I’d agree that people get hung up on the cyborg comparison with the Cybermen.

I do think that there is a precursor to the Borg in Who though.

Consider, the Borg infect you with nanobots, which invade and change the body to become one of them. In doing so the network or hive mind gains access to your thoughts and experience to turn against your former allies.

Now watch Arc in Space and the Wirrn.

They implant their eggs or contaminate your tissue with theirs and your body mass is converted to Wirrn. In doing so they absorb your thoughts, memories and experience. They share that through their insectoid hive mind and use it against your former allies.

The Borg are the Wirrn with a bit of Cyberman thrown in. They obviously watched Tom Baker in his first series. 😉

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Great to see you @rob and I agree with what you (and @whisht) say here. I think that’s a huge point that the relative success of the monsters first outing usually touches on some wider fear or issue.

@denvaldron

The reason that I mentioned the Sontarans specifically is that I watched the Bred for war boxset of all four Sontaran BG stories relatively recently and they are fresh in my mind.

It’s really striking that much of the lore about Sontarans, conventions like names beginning with S, etc. doesn’t really occur in their first story. The Sontaran, Jingo Linx, is more of a villain in that he gets a lot of dialogue. I wouldn’t have thought any previous creations in sci-fi had any bearing on his creation by Robert Holmes, because Holmes didn’t get along with science fiction. Holmes bought a lot of other stuff to the show, including a love of Gothic horror and Victorian era penny dreadfuls.

Holmes lied about his age to get into the army and became the youngest soldier to win a commission to officer in WWII. After he had a short (and apparently unhappy) stint with the Police before becoming a journalist and trying his hand at this TV scriptwriting lark.

I think that is why he was so good at writing the Brig. I also think Lynx was a comment on how war can turn men into monsters. Wilfred Owen wrote a great poem (the name escapes me at the moment) in which the narrator describes a rural scene in completely military terms. Lynx is a warrior who can’t conceptualize ideas unless they deal with battle. Strax is the nearest to this concept we’ve had since then, but it’s played for laughs.

I think his experiences as a journalist undoubtedly informed Sarah Jane Smith. People tend to forget she could be amazingly judgemental in her early series. I’d also say that his experience with the Police fed through into Who. He never tired of pointing out that Police could be monsters and that justice was flawed. His idea of the twisted future Doctor was the Valeyard. A biased prosecutor in a loaded trial. The man loved using monsters as a metaphor.

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Tracks for Before the Flood? Well, we’re back in the 80s in the episode, and I’m an old goth so I’m going to go to The Sisters of Mercy’s Floodland album and Flood II. It is possibly one of my favourite albums of the late 80s as Andrew ‘I can make my shopping list sound scary’ Eldritch produces something strangely uplifting.

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@juniperfish

Yes, the dialogue about the Time Lords was intruiging, especially as the last time Whithouse wrote an exchange like this in School Reunion it went:

Finch: And what of the Time Lords? I always thought of you as such a pompous race. Ancient, dusty senators so frightened of change and… chaos. And of course, they’re all but extinct. Only you, the last.
The Doctor: This plan of yours, what is it?
Finch: You don’t know?
The Doctor: That’s why I’m asking.
Finch: Well show me how clever you are. Work it out.
The Doctor: If I don’t like it, then it will stop.
Finch: Fascinating. Your people were peaceful to the point of indolence. You seem to be something new. would you declare war on us, Doctor?

I’d agree that something about their return is being set up here.

BTW – I didn’t spot anything immediately Tarot related on first watch. Anyone else?

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@doctordoctorwho

Don’t worry, I made it up! I guess the mention of hybrids in the first two parter made me think of it because the Producers said before the series that they wanted to play with the two parter format a little. I think it’s an extension of what Moffat did with Pandorica Opens\Big Bang and Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon, which were quite odd in the way they dealt with cliffhangers and threw you a curve ball.

By the way, I’ve done a few studies on mobile phones for recycling initiatives for the WEEE regulations. By weight there is a high proportion of ferrous and non ferrous metals. Upto 60% by weight in some models, because of the battery.

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Oh yes – that scene with Cass being pursued by the ghost, and the vibrations alerting her was brilliantly creepy. Nice use of O’Donnell’s fate being used to give one couple a happy ending while emphasising that Clara is not in a happy place.

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I thought that was damn good, and with The Witch’s Familiar a second part of a two partner that did things its own way rather than what you might conventionally expect. The precredits and outro were brilliantly fourth wall breaking.

I genuinely didn’t recognize Paul Kaye as Prentis last week, and really enjoyed his performance. The line inviting the Doctor to oppress him with a variety of handy implements in the ship? Brilliant. The name was obviously a deliberate call out to Magician’s Apprentice (A. Prentis) which seems to be a thing in this series. Lots of blurring of the lines. Whitehouse returning could have been the purpose of having one of the aliens from his A Town Called Mercy in the Cantina scene in Apprentice.

So I’m guessing that O’Donnell being a bit like Osgood (and meeting a similar fate) is there to remind us of her. Dwelling on the ‘Minister of War’ seemed to be a thing as well.

Another fine vocal performance for Peter Serafinowicz (the voice of Darth Maul). Leaves the way open for an appearance later. My only quibble with the episode was I would have liked a bit more with both Prentis and The Fisher King. If only because Whitehouse writes Good confrontation scenes. The Fisher Kings opinion of the Time Lords as warriors is worth dwelling on.

Really entertaining. Loving the hybrid two parter format

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@whisht @purofilion

Dame Shirley is mentioned. In a who episode. We discuss the past to unlock the potential future?

Well, it’s all a little bit of history repeating…..

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@thekrynoidman

Great track. Bowie produced some incredible material in the 70s and early 80s. I’m one of those people who thought he became a little less interesting as he retreated from characters in music and took up acting (which appeared to fill that need thereafter).

I don’t think we heard back from you on the showing of Tommy you were going to? I was genuinely envious. I think I’ve explained in the past that I love a bit of pinball. I love the showmanship of Elton John in the movie:

But I still love this version of it by Pete Townsend. Recorded in an appearance at Amnesty’s Secret Policeman’s Ball. A great purchase if you like that eras comedy and music.

Some great performances on those recordings. It’s worth seeking out. Joan Armatrading solo doing Call Me Names, for instance, I can’t find on YouTube, but it is blistering!

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@denvaldron

I’m struggling with this a little, because you seem to ne taking what makes a monster, and then mixing it with some hugely subjective stuff about legacy. How about we concentrate on first or early appearances?

Because if a monster reappeared, it was a success. What made it the success? What is our first impression of the Sontarans, say?

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@bluesqueakpip @juniperfish @craig

Anyone else fancy some art criticism?

I don’t know much about art criticism, but I know I’m a bit geeky. So here goes:

The figures in the boat are yellow, red and blue. In Trek, Blue is the science/medicine colour across the board. In the original series yellow was command, red was disposable (hence ‘red shirt’ jokes). A little unfair as Scotty always wore red. In TNG era stuff, command is red, and engineering,security, etc are yellow.

In considering the era of the painting, a big clue is present elsewhere in the episode. The flood door which closed on Clara was labelled 1701 b. The NCC 1701 b is the last of three Enterprise named ships Kirk captained. An Excelsior Class ship, used solely in the film Generations, which handed the baton from original series to next gen in the films.

If you zoom in on the pic it’s actually got a lot of detail. Our Yellow Kirk is pointing at the crew member in the mouth. Our red Scotty is pointing at the perilous state of their ship. Our blue Spock, trapped in the Middle remains impassive (he was someone who tried to suppress emotions after all).

The crew member in the mouth is also dressed in blue, seems to be female (or a chap who likes a skirt). So I’d suggest the painting represents the Doctor (as Spock) torn between a decision on the fate of his mirror companion, Clara, and his Ship, the Tardis. Perhaps an impossible choice like Treks Kobayashi Maru test.

Generations isn’t well liked in Trek fandom because they killed Kirk, and it is a bit pants. It’s worth looking at in the context of this episode though. In it Kirk heroically saves people from the kind of spacial anomaly that plagues the show, but gets lost in it himself. He’s trapped in this kind of heavenly afterlife called the Nexus, and preserved from the ravages of time, to be called forth in an hour of need by Picard. Very Arthurian. So if this is an analogy, the Doctor is in the box is some sort of stasis.

The ‘villain’ of the piece Malcolm MacDowell wants to join the Nexus and unleashes its power to swallow a planet (and potentially….the GALAXY!). It looks like a flood.

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I think @purofilion was understating when she said people on the board were ‘on fire’. Lots of good stuff coming up. Will try to comment a bit later on a few issues, but I’m up in Whitehaven at the moment, relying on wi-fi in a town that just feels like the 1950s. Loved the picture that @craig posted though, so had to sign in.

The beer in Wetherspoons is helping the creative process. 😀

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@bluesqueakpip @juniperfish

Sorry, my schedule is hell at the moment and I completely glossed over your fascinating discussion on the Arthurian references.

Yes, completely bang on with the Battlefield reference @bluesqueakpip, and I always got the impression he’d both been and would be Merlin again. The once and future Wizard.

If this plays out, then surely we have to award Toby the ‘McCoy Fanboy Legacy’ Award, as God Complex revisited themes from Curse of Fenric.

@juniperfish , regarding placement of characters I go back to my idle question about Clara’s fashion choice and I can’t help but think her arm may be wielding a sword next week in a cheeky nod to The Holy Grail:

The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king

I think this fabric might look a bit shimmering gold (samite being goldy silk) when wet.

Clara, her arms clad in shimmering samite. Possibly. 😀

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With dear ol Shirley Bassey getting a callout in Under the lake I suppose I should go for her, but I’ll leave it to someone more familiar with her work.

I’ve mentioned Bowie on other threads tonight, and have been reading details from the latest Mars analysis. Flowing water and methane spikes in the atmosphere. Could it be..

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@bluesqueakpip

Doctor Who was being watched by about two fans and their pet Dalek*

That would be me, you and Rusty then? Simpler times.

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@juniperfish

Good calls on the Tarot!

On the deaf character, while it is early days into the series, I’ve noticed a couple of lines that play into synesthesia, that blurring of the senses. Missy had that line about artificial gravity ‘tasting coppery’. The skewed senses of the Daleks being transmuted into weaponry.

It will be interesting to see if this is ‘a thing’ going forward.

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Just how different does this series feel to newer viewers I wonder? The pacing feels significantly different to recent series, doesn’t it?

I thought this was really intriguing as a setup. Obviously a lot of callbacks to the base under siege style of the BG period. And Quatermass, of course. If you are going to rob, go for the biggies.

All for the good, and I can’t help but admit I have a growing soft spot for Toby Whitehouse as a writer. It solidified with God Complex, which helped put a lot of his earlier work in context.

Some random thoughts:

Clara appears to have come dressed for the seventies? It looks a lot like her ensemble for the Pertwee Claricle. Not sure of any significance but apparently the designers put a lot of thought into her wardrobe.

I thought it may have been a directorial thing in the first two partner, but this continues a focus on reflections in eyes. The eyes are a mirror to the soul. The Doctor gets a taste for hugging (a great way of hiding the face) and suddenly starts wearing shades to hide his eyes? Hmmmmm….

I’m struggling to remember that many portrayals of deaf people in drama. The last one was probably Ken Stott’s girlfriend in Messiah (played by Michelle Forbes) or Joey Lucas in West Wing. Nice to see a good focus on that in the episode.

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Great links @craig and a heartwarming story about the potential museum. I think it’s actually pretty horrific that the mud Edison slung at Tesla stuck in many ways, which means he has never quite been celebrated.

I think that is why he’s perfect for Who though. He was essentially an idealistic socialist working in a system where his investors constantly asked “what’s in this for us,exactly?”.

His dream of transmitting electricity through the air and his work on static electricity were obviously referenced in the first two Dalek stories, so I take it Terry Nation was a fan.

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While I was away, I caught a bit of The Prestige. I love The Prestige. It’s a great film. It also, unfortunately, sets me off on a bit of a rant.

We’ve had historicals dealing with Queens, writers and painters in Doctor Who. Huzzah for Victoria, Agatha Christie, Dickens and Vincent. Great subjects that deserve the Who touch.

But let’s have a scientist please. A bizarre one. One who won the war in bringing electricity to our homes. One who dabbled in weird science, believing he could harness cosmic rays to solve the world’s problems and aleviate poverty. One Who thought developing an ultimate death Ray and giving it to all sides would make war redundant.

I’d love Nikola Tesla to be in a Doctor Who episode. Such a massive figure who deserves to be a bit more well known.

We could go mad and ask, I don’t know, a weirdo like David Bowie to play him. I’d watch it.

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@lisa

I’ve added a possibly spoiler alert to your post.

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@bluesqueakpip @juniperfish @pedant

Interesting news. I got back earlier today and tried to get some sleep this afternoon. A repetitive ‘pinging’ sound interrupted this attempt and I finally discovered the source was this story. It was the sound of a couple of hundred dummies ricocheting off computer monitors as they were spat out by intemperate talifanboys.

Some of the online reaction has been amazingly OTT. I don’t know if Dave Gorman is a Doctor Who fan, but if so he could produce a very entertaining ‘found poem’ on this one.

Keeping in mind that the last 2 ‘young adult’ BBC3 projects were ‘In the flesh’ and ‘The Fades’, both of which were critical successes, and more adult than many would credit, and coupled with a collaboration between Patrick Ness and Steven Moffat, who cut his teeth and won major awards with Press Gang (as @bluesqueakpip mentioned) I think I’ll be giving this a look.

Have a couple of reminders about how good The Fades was, and why it should not have been cancelled:

I remain optimistic, and I suck on my dummy still. Away with the jerkers of knees!

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@kharis @juniperfish

Hi – the Tarot came up in a response to a site blog by @tommck during series 8 and we were discussing the identity of Missy. I thought series 8 was loaded with the major arcana archetypes and placed Missy as Death. There was a great response by @drben on the fools journey after it.

Nothing to stop you developing and expanding on this though, because its an interesting subject. You can explain on the forums or write it as a blog for us if you’d prefer.

I still think developing a set of images for Major Arcana on the site would be a great idea. Personally I’d replace the minor arcana with four of the Gallifrey ‘Houses

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One interesting thing about this two partner from a personal perspective.

For the last couple of years we’ve been running the BG retrospective of Doctor Who. Every time Tom Baker has come up for nominations for a story, there it sits. Genesis of the Daleks. An undoubted classic, but one that many old fans have discussed to death. We’ve always rebelled and selected something else. I think @bluesqueakpip even joked that perhaps we could be the only Doctor Who site that never discussed Genesis. At the time I agreed.

I think this two partner has made me want to explore it again in context with this, to evaluate the parallels and mirrors. I think the desire to do that is remarkable in itself. What is old could be new again. Very Timey Wimey

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So, I was thinking about Witch songs and, unsurprisingly perhaps, the thought of young women dancing about without their draws on seems somewhat more appealing to musicians than magicians.

We can’t have seen the last of Missy this Season can we? No. Nay, nay and thrice nay! This is….. the season of the witch!

(It was laboured intros like this that got me banned from student radio as a DJ you know?)

…and have a bit of Goth for good measure

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@bluesqueakpip

Absolutely brilliant! 😀

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@whisht

At the time it just felt ‘wrong’ unlike when the performer themselves pass away. Almost certainly weird ‘standards’ on my part but there you go

I understand that completely, I think. If an artist dies you’re celebrating their acheivements. A virtual wake. Something like the loss of a child though? 🙁

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@juniperfish

If Who ever does a musical episode (oh go on, please) Davros and the Doc just have to rock out to “Let’s do the Time Warp Again”.

I think the predictable wails of “ripping of Joss” would prevent this, but I do think it could be remarkable fun….especially if they could get Bleach to do some unhinged songs for it.

For those who don’t know, Bleach is an actor, musician (associated with Philip Glass) and award winning cowriter and MC of the musical Shockheaded Peter. Talented git.

If nothing else, it would be a fun idea on the music thread perhaps. What songs could you imagine various characters singing. I could imagine a really twisted version of Summer Lovin between Capaldi and Gomez.

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@scaryb

Snap with you and @juniperfish on the creepiness of the Asylum take.

Haha.
Assuming Missy’s telling the truth of course.

Maisie Williams Pond, Missy’s daughter! Let’s kick off a speculation trend!

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Just how good was Bleach in that!? I thought his performance in Stolen Earth\Journey’s End was the best since Michael Wisher and did something I thought would be impossible. It combined ticks from all the performances before it. I think this is where he delivers a definitive performance of his own. He almost had me convinced this was his redemption moment, and then….

Yep, still the malicious, conniving, twisted son of a mutant we know and tolerate! Brilliant. 😀

I think everyone was on top form for that. Gomez just gets better, Capaldi just looks like he’s having the best time of his life and Coleman is delightful as a foil, selling both the comedy and the darker stuff. There was a definite flashback to Asylum of the Daleks with her trapped in the Dalek.

So

– The Master had a daughter. That’s new. Let’s add her to the list for random speculation over the identity of female guest stars. The Susan\Romana\Jenny\River calls need more variety.

– the Doctors confession and secrets about why he left Gallifrey may be a thing this series? Anyone think this could be a new ‘Name’ scenario and will be misdirection to talk about some other theme?

– Dalek\Time Lord hybrids are foretold? That’s also new. A way to heal the Time War? Or new big bad territory?

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@denvaldron @fatmaninabox

Skarro got blowed up in Remembrance of the Daleks. Not shimmy shammied, not catapulted into another dimension. It actually got blowed up, by Davros himself, falling into the Doctor’s trap with a stellar manipulator. Very kablam. It got better?

Ah? You mean you haven’t come across the ‘official’* explanation for this? You, and other fans of bonkers theories have missed out. See if you can follow the logic of this one:

– The Daleks learned about the destruction of Skaro when they invaded in The Dalek Invasion of Earth.
– Foreknowledge let them develop a cunning plan to outwit the Manipulative Seventh Doctor.
– They go back to Skaro and unearth Davros.
– They cart him off to another planet which they terrorform to look like Skaro, and bury him in a replica ruined Dalek city they’ve built.
– They create an entire false war with the Movellans (who they created) to kill some time while they wait for the Doctor to arrive. You know, because that’s what the Doctor does.
– When he does they launch a staged excavation to retrieve Davros to convince both him and the Doctor that they are on Skaro. Davros needs to believe to “sell” this scenario to The Doctor.
– The Doctor, who has never got to Skaro intentionally, thinks he now has the location down pat, and years later launches the hand of Omega at the wrong star destroying the faux Skaro. The real Skaro survives.

Now, you may chortle and consider this a fetid pile of Dingo’s Kidneys, but that didn’t stop John Peel (no, not that one) from using this in his Eighth Doctor novel War of the Daleks (subtitled Well that about wraps it up for common sense). There are so many ways to call this ridiculous that, guess what? People did.

* Official as in published under a BBC Books banner and written by an author lauded by the Nation Estate. It was kicked mercilessly on release and lies largely forgotten.

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@juniperfish

The Maldovarium is a Star Wars tribute, from beginning to end, as has been pointed out before, so perhaps this is the Who version of “Did Solo or Greedo shoot first?”

Good call. It’s funny that SMs touchstone 50th century time period does really have that vibe of Star Wars (the Demons Run set in A Good Man Goes to War being another one – it screamed Empire architecture). I suppose there is that link of sci-fi fantasy fairytale. Boy meets wizard, gets magic sword and embarks on quest to free a princess from the fortress of the dark wizard.

As to the Greedo question, George Lucas definitely agrees that time can be rewritten. 🙂

@bluesqueakpip

I was really slow last weekend. Took me ages to get the pun with Colony Sarff (Sarff, welsh for serpent in plural form). A colony of snakes to deliver the Doctor to a nest of vipers. Loved the tone setting scene for SM.

@missy

No Doctor Who Prom this year I’m afraid. The Proms are obliged to mix up the schedule so I think next year or year after is more likely.

Ben Foster has been touring with the music though with the Symphony spectacular, and that’s a good thing if you find it difficult to get to London (and I’ve never been able to get tickets to any Prom I’ve wanted to attend).

The 2015 tour of UK and Oz has completed and it looks likely the next tour will increase the number of countries.

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@whisht @scaryb @purofilion

Funnily enough Nick Cave is a Doctor Who fan. He took his family (including the son that died earlier this year) to the Science Museum premiere of Voyage of the Damned after old friend Kylie got them on the guest list. As we all know, Australia has a history with the show second only to the UK. I hope the use of his work is a minor comfort.

I was thinking about the Doctors “last will and testament”. It can’t be his last will can it. Perhaps it’s his second to last will and testament. Only a rough draft. A handwritten estimate.

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@whisht

You know, Sonic Youth were always a band I thought I ought to like, but never really did that much. The Beastie Boys on the other hand were a band I disliked intensly when I heard their first few singles but grew to love as they went onto things like Sabotage. Funny old world.

I liked a ot of that period of rock\rap experimentation. Stuff like Anthrax and Public Enemy teaming up.

Thought of this one after just watching the Magician’s Apprentice with it’s battle scenes. Still a fine song this, and remarkable video

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Oh well, my plan for a couple of rewatches (and a long weekend) came to naught in the end. I’ve just managed a second watch to prepare myself for later (by reading all these posts). A few thoughts:

There is an awful lot of mirroring going on in this episode, continuing the themes of last year. I’d suspect that Clara is both the apprentice and the familiar of the titles and that the distinction is down to one of whom the words are paired against. How the relationship between Clara, Doctor and Missy works.

By which I mean that Apprentice is a nurturing description. A Master of his trade will take on an apprentice to give them his knowledge and experience (his perspective) to grow into another Master. It continues the Clara is becoming more like the Doctor storyline. The Apprentice would also take on the smaller tasks unworthy of the Master craftsman.

Looked at this way, UNIT calling on Clara makes sense. She’s the apprentice working out if the Magician is needed. She’s in a position of trust. She’s also showing signs of her ‘growth’ towards the Doctor. I can’t help but feel that Kate focusing on the people in the plane would have been a Clara in series 7b. Here she’s moved past that to the fuel and the potential ramifications of disaster. As they said in Flatline last year (and surely every triage Doctor would agree) “sometimes it just comes down to numbers”.

A familiar, though, is something to be used. The frog, the cat.. A puppy. It serves its Master or Mistress as a slave. There is nothing nurturing about the experience. No expectation of advancement.

The titles are a pretty good summary of how the Doctor and Master see others full stop, I think.

I think I mentioned a while ago I thought series 8 had an arc about how this Doctor was struggling with the notion of compassion in his question of ” am I a good man?”. The team up of Missy and the Cybermen being a dream team for that. Davros and the Daleks seem a natural continuation of that with a different emphasis.

Right -off to read your posts.

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