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14 October 2014 at 03:05 #33531
Funny you should mention IKB… reminded me of this (I also claim steampunk relevance to the current episode)
The mighty The Men Not who Will Not be Blamed for Nothing (Brunel). There’s not enough musical tributes to engineers IMHO!
14 October 2014 at 02:56 #33530Some great moon posts, esp @xad4 – you can’t beat Tom Waits 😉 (And @arbutus for Creedence)
And great stuff already for Mummy… I’m amazed at some of these links – Here Come the Mummies indeed! (Thanks @thekrynoidman) – a song for every occasion indeed!
On a different tack this seemed rather appropriate for Clara’s state of mind the last couple of weeks –
(The Clash – Should I Stay or Should I GO?)
14 October 2014 at 02:40 #33528Not that you’ll be able to avoid it, but there’s a f*ckin great spoilery photo on the cover of the next issue of DW Magazine (damn my twitter feed). Well, not that spoilery, it’s elements that have all been out there (even for spoilerphobes like me) and we suspected would be in the finale in any case.
Thinking more about Missy’s world – and I’m thinking phaseshifting (hehe) could come into it – but wondering where it actually is, assuming it’s not a virtual world. What if it’s on Gallifrey – it’s the Doctor’s home planet’s dark underside! We’ve only ever seen 1 bit of it. So he finds Gallifrey again but (some of) the Time Lords have gone bitter and twisted – is that so hard to believe?! – and turned to the dark side to try to release themselves, as they’ve got fed up waiting for the Doctor to find them. Ungrateful sod, you give him a whole new cycle of regenerations and he just goes off gallivanting!
Time for bed…
14 October 2014 at 02:29 #33527Thanks @thommck for the link to the props photos. Beautiful attention to detail as ever. Did you notice that the guns have “GUS” stamped on them? Couldn’t make out if it’s on any of the other tech.
Sorry fishy friends but I have to disagree. Tennant on his day was magnificent! <stamps foot> Then again, so was Smithy, so I’d put them equal (esp for their double act in the 50th), just under Capaldi. Yikes! It’s difficult – there’s also Hurt and McGann, both brilliant in a very short amount of screen time. But it really is Capaldi’s role, and I don’t think he’s finished yet. There again he’s only been practising for it for about 50 years!
12 October 2014 at 23:37 #33469I’m not actually disagreeing with you – I like this darker take, with lots of shadowy greys, and I agree it’s being played up more by Capaldi. But he’s always done the difficult choices. Ten would have let history take its course in Pompeii if it hadn’t been for Donna; Eleven in the Beast Below was making the “wrong” choice till pulled up by Amy. And the whole message of Day of the Doctor is that there’s always a better choice than killing children.
The difference is that Twelve doesn’t dress it up. When someone’s already dead or beyond his ability to help (eg Ross, the astronaut last week, those who have seen the mummy in this week’s) he doesn’t pretend he can. eg it doesn’t matter if Maisie stays in the carriage with Clara, or if she goes to where the Doctor is, if it’s her turn to see it, it will find her.
Hmmm – just thinking – this is the second episode where the Doctor has referred to masking his thoughts so his true intentions won’t be detected. (And he’s also doing it with Clara so as not to influence her decision. But you can see he’s delighted when she decides she wants to keep travelling)
12 October 2014 at 22:52 #33467Re Rani/cybermen – you could be right (see my theory re Missy preparing a “present” for her “boyfriend” (assuming it’s the Doctor she means and not Gus)).
Or it could be the massive redirect others have suggested and what we should be looking at is Danny. Has he really not been travelling yet? We’re all assuming his traumatic “thing” happened in “our” past as well as his. Or he’s the Master/Gus in disguise!
OTOH anyone who uses Tom Waits to illustrate a point is fine in my book! 😉
(@Craig – thank you, oh ever vigilant mighty emperor!! (Is that enough crawling??))
12 October 2014 at 22:18 #33464Oh, thanks @craig (I always have a prob with pics 🙁 )
(And apologies for my over-reaction re possible spoilers last night – my Joo Janta 200 Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive Sunglasses activated as soon as they saw the word “wiki”! )
12 October 2014 at 22:08 #33462I know Capaldi’s referencing a good bit of Tom in his portrayal, but I also love the refs to that other old curmudgeonly Doctor, #1 –
(Sorry, not linking properly – it’s a photo of Hartnell in very similar dress (where’s @wolfweed when we need him?!))
Edit: Occasionally, very occasionally, Craig is here to fix things.
12 October 2014 at 22:04 #33460As I’ve posted before, Clara has been lying her socks off to both Danny and the Doctor throughout this series. At the end of this episode she tells Danny (on the phone) – “mission accomplished” (implying she has told the Doctor that was the “lst hurrah” and she’s done with timetravel. She then tells the Doctor that it’s OK, Danny’s said she can still travel with him.
Call me cynical, but I don’t believe either of these! But she’s much much happier having decided she wants to keep travelling with the Doctor. I like how the Doctor kept following her lead – he didn’t want to influence her decision, didn’t want that responsibility. what’s worrying me is hat happened after Amy and Rory went through much the same process… Angels take Manhatten wasn’t far behind!
I’m with @juniperfish – I like how Clara’s had a chance to develop this series. So, she’s conflicted – who wouldn’t be in the same situation! 2 impossible lives to weave together. But what a simple device to open up other possibilities – both the Doctor and Clara can have any amount of other things happen to them between episodes. Who knows what the Doctor gets up to (apart from sitting like buddha on top of the TARDIS and pndering his nightmares!)
12 October 2014 at 21:56 #33459Don’t really see why people generally find it easier to suspend disbelief for a teleporting mummy on the Orient Express (IN SPACE!!) than for the moon’s an egg scenario, but happy people are generally on board for this epi 🙂 (Especially @bluesqueakpip – we’d be lost without you!!)
@jimbomcmaster The Doctor’s always had difficult decisions – from preventing Barbara trying to rewrite Aztec traditions (no sacrifices) to not saving anyone from St Bartholomew’s Eve Massacre to “have I the right…” in Genesis to Ten at Pompeii and in Waters of Mars. I agree – if it was 11 in Into the Dalek it would have been the same reaction but he might have got his PR agent on to the presentation of it! 12 is just as much of a good man at heart(s) as all the other incarnations. Maybe I find it easier since I started with Hartnell. And Scottish (12’s banter sounds pretty normal to me!)
I like the notion that the Doctor can multi-task with multiple thought processes at any given time – but only 1 emotion, LOL (His comment to Clara that she must be malfunctioning with happy/sad – he recognises how she’s feeling but can’t cope with conflicting emotions at the same time. And proceeds to talk about planets!)
So, so far this series we’ve had 5 “broken” soldiers (HFM, the dalek, Danny, the skovox blitzer, the mummy) – just a mirror for the Doctor’s frame of mind, or something more? 3, maybe 4 of them, he’s fixed so far.
11 October 2014 at 23:52 #33398Well technically we don’t know that Missy’s is a “virtual” world. Could still be a physical place/thing.
@seyhall Technically I’d say that counts as a potential spoiler – info pulled from elsewhere than in-programme or on BBC site. @Craig @phaseshift @fatmaninabox Am I being oversensitive here…? (if not can you move the post please?) OK – wikipedia entries prob count as speculation anyway!
11 October 2014 at 22:51 #33387@juniperfish <waves back>
😳
Roman empire/Time Lord analogy would always hold up well! Re Missy as possible TL, I’ve been wondering that myself (along with many others!) – with all the potential tech involved. Is she making a present for her “boyfriend”?
And another misunderstood monster this week – well, the mummy was still a monster but was only acting on (defective) programming. Gus however…
And why has Gus got the Doctor’s phone no? Seems to be everyone and their granny has it these days!
11 October 2014 at 22:39 #33384And answering my own question – who was Gus?
He was John Sessions 😀 Hope he’ll be back!!
11 October 2014 at 22:35 #33383*looks out cautiously over the sofa – is it safe to come out yet? 😯 *
Yay! @juniperfish and everyone calling the mirroring of the Doctor’s choice.
And also delighted that what I’ve been banging on about the Doctor still being the Doctor, as in compassionate and warm but just hiding it well, has bubbled to the surface.
Yes the Doctor lies as we know – although he’s been generally more upfront this series, hence the accusations of “callous” – but Clara’s been an inverate liar throughout this series, particularly to both Danny and the Doctor and she lies thoroughly to both of them in the last scene. Danny’s given her permission to travel with the Doctor so it’s OK. Oh really??! Just as well the Doctor doesn’t really understand Clara or he’d have seen straight through that one!
Travelling with the Doctor is like an addiction? (Don’t think Clara looks like giving it up any time soon. It was the same with Amy and Rory. And us 🙂 )
Who’s Gus? (or GUS?)
@juniperfish – there was the Marcus Aurelius quote (in Day of the Doctor (and Deep Breath?)) about not wasting time arguing what a good man should be. Will need to watch again re Augustus.
(And yes, I too was expecting a trainload of newly deceased for Missy’s place!)
11 October 2014 at 19:56 #33362Getting excited for “Mummy…”
Some quick thoughts –
Thanks @whisht for your post which managed to say in a couple of paragraphs what I rambled around in about a dozen posts! 🙂
Thinking a bit more about Missy – if she thinks she’s in some way the Doctor’s girlfriend, might she be making a present for him? (Something warped of course!). What is she doing with all these people that have been “saved”?
When is Danny going to get a trip on the TARDIS (and why hasn’t he already)?
Taking bets on either Clara or Danny needing rescued (from Missy’s world) by the end of the series – which will either split Danny and the Doctor for good, or resolve their relationship into one of mutual respect (don’t judge 1 person on the group you see them as part of (soldiers, officers, daleks, moon dragons etc…)).
7 October 2014 at 22:15 #33243It shows he had complete confidence that Clara would make the right decision. She’s already shown him her moral strength in Day of the Doctor, and he’d pretty much spelt it out to her in this episode what the right decision was. His faith in her is 100%. But he didn’t explain all that in detail to her, so she felt the pressure, and she felt used.
7 October 2014 at 22:11 #33242Death and difficult choices – also Into the Dalek – should they try to treat a “the Doctor’s deadliest enemy” or let it die (presumably) and the Dalek’s choice at the end – to go on a killing spree. And that’s in addition to Gretchen’s choice. Maybe the “I’ve made many mistakes” line was bit more than a throwaway and he actually does intend to make up for some of them. Or realise there are some things he can’t fix, and it’s OK.
I could see that theme evolving so there’s a role in the story for River. Fingers x’d. And yes would be great to see Vastra and Jenny back – they’ve already shown they work well with Twelve.
A haunted theme at Hallowe’en – can’t wait 😈 Next week’s looks pretty creepy too.
7 October 2014 at 21:55 #33239Good to see you back – was worried all this talk about The Trolley problem and throwing fat men over bridges had chased you away!!
*off to shake some of my new glitter on the sofa, hehe*
7 October 2014 at 21:54 #33238He turned up as soon as the button was pressed. He was monitoring. Or waiting till the end of the countdown. (Quick trip round the moon, kill some time 😉 , head back )
Makes me think that it was intended to be a suicide mission. No way they could expect to set the bombs, launch the shuttle and get clear in time. (There again there there were a lot of “no way”s in this episode!)
7 October 2014 at 21:50 #33235@Purofilion
Poor you. Hope you feel better/recaffeinated soon 🙂
I’m not dissing your theory that there is something wrong with Clara, just that I think we’ve seen enough of her life recently to explain it. She has to be panicking that she was the cause of Danny becoming a soldier (and his consequent traumatic experience which we’ve still to find out about). Maybe that was a path he’d never have set out on if she hadn’t dabbled in his childhood. Not to mention the worry that she might in some way have imprinted herself on his subconscious when he was a boy, so that he becomes predestined to fall for her (his guardian angel)! And all of this she’s keeping from him, and from the Doctor. Neither of them is likely to be pleased with her. Talk about guilt (maybe what the Teller as sensing).
7 October 2014 at 21:43 #33233It was always the Doctor’s intention to come back for the humans as soon as they’d made the decision. He just didn’t explain that was the plan. The same as he didn’t explain in Deep Breath. But if they’d made Choice 1 (Nuke the moon) then there may not have been much of an earth to take them back to. Choice 2 (save he creature) ensures that there is. Clara’s message to the people of earth (well some of them anyway) ensured that at least a few of them know what happened and the positive consequences of the leap of faith choice to let the creature live. Which is the attitude they’ll take into space exploration with them.
I like that this Doctor doesn’t seem to know everything – and doesn’t keep up any facade that he does. But he does still have Clara’s back, even tho she sometimes doubts it.
7 October 2014 at 21:34 #33232And the Iron Chicken (tho don’t ask me which came first) 😉 Love the lesbian lizards. Apparently there were reports of newly discovered seismic activity on the moon (not that it happened recently but it’s new information that wasn’t known before) – http://www.techtimes.com/articles/16975/20141002/explore-the-moon-s-intricate-system-of-valleys-just-discovered.htm
– and 2 weeks ago there were massive solar storms (same week as Time Heist) – http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/11/tech/innovation/solar-storm/
Spooky synchronicity! (Even more impressive than if they synch the last 2 stories with Hallowe’en and Remembrance Sunday as @phaseshift suggests)
I don’t think I’ll ever go out without an umbrella again 😯
Aha, yes – the gay agenda’s back. Taking its place with the new pro-life agenda 😉
7 October 2014 at 19:30 #33219Well done in tracking down the dialogues from the BG episodes. Definitely not a new thing that companions threaten to leave and forcefully call the Doctor out on things. I seem to remember it wasn’t unusual for Ian or Barbara to do it either. I see lots of echoes of Hartnell in particular in Twelve.
@pedant – Stop doing that!! (Another keyboard ruined)
@thommck Great post. In tribute to that and in the spirit of @blenkinsopthebrave‘s “evidence”, I present the case for alternative lifeforms and lifecycles –
7 October 2014 at 01:18 #33193Oh, and I nearly forgot.
In the Caretaker – the Doctor mentions that he spent a month hanging out with otters after a fight with River. Could that be when he met @jimthefish (building his dam to keep the dam’ otters out)?
7 October 2014 at 01:13 #33191Don’t speak too soon on that one, sweetie.
Are you my mummy?haha, true. (spoilers!)
So are we back to pregnancies again…? 😈
*little sigh* I miss River
7 October 2014 at 01:03 #33190Not everyone agrees with me, but this is my take on it –
http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/forums/topic/kill-the-moon/page/3/#post-33087
The dilemma is whether or not to kill a new life, possibly one of its kind, IN CASE it proves harmful to the earth. The right decision is to let nature take its course – the moon returns, environmental crisis over and mankind is revitalised in its outlook and sense of adventure. But it has to be the humans who make the decision, not have it imposed on them. They have to take the leap of faith (and understand that there’s an alternative to “nuke it”) in order to grow up a bit as a species.
@Purofilion All’s not right with Clara – she’s juggling, she’s stressed and she’s outright lying to each of the people she’s closest to. Her neglected flat suggests to me that she’s spending more time out of “real life” than in it. That’s why she snaps at the end of this one. She’s also annoyed with the Doctor for making her work out the dilemma for herself (tho he clearly signposted it before nipping off), for being right, and for not prioritising humans (and Clara) over the moon dragon. And there’s the reaction to having just come through an extremely stressful situation. This Doctor nips in and out of her life when it suits him, without considering whether it works for her. She no longer has the purpose she had in series 7 – “I was born to save the Doctor”, including being the one to call out the Timelords on giving him the extra regenerations. She doesn’t feel as “special” to this Doctor as she did, and she’s certainly not the boss.
7 October 2014 at 00:38 #33187Re Missy’s world – there’s a 4th option – that it actually exists, rather than being somewhere digital. It could be in a bubble universe, it could be where the lost Time Lords are. IF people are being teleported there, it suggests something timelordy to me. But I love the idea that it’s a Moffat tease to folk who say he never kills anyone off. Missy doesn’t save/kidnap everyone though and the policeman seems like an anomaly.
Missy as Anubis would be awesome
Wouldn’t it just! Though we seem to have gone a bit Roman this series, so maybe looking a the wrong mythology. Egypt was SO last year!!
Trial of a Timelord revisited?
@blenkinsopthebrave has noted the stylistic similarities with A Matter of Life and Death, which could very well fit in with a Moffat tease. Or it’s a clue. We’ve also seen outdoor and old fashioned sitting room interior, which may or not be artificial. So frustrating we couldn’t see what the policeman saw out the window.
(And thanks for the glitter Jfish, I feel all 70s glamrock again!)
6 October 2014 at 23:49 #33180@Purofilion If Clara’s lacking a bit in energy it’s not surprising – she’s got a secret Doctor life, a demanding day job and a love life – and she’s trying to keep them all separate. Not surprised she’s knackered and her flat looks a bit unlived-in. She’s literally fitting in a lot more hours than there usually are in a day.
As a side issue, I love the TARDIS landing in tight spaces in her flat, in the school etc.
@bluesqueakpip Phew! Good point. I’ll go with your reasoning. Not pregnant 😉
(Although a thought has just occurred – was this discussed at the time? Going waaaay back to series 6 with all the red/blue theories about dopler shifts, alt timelines etc – did we ever consider that pregnancy tests can rely on a red or blue colour change to indicate the result…? (@Juniperfish…?))
6 October 2014 at 23:39 #33179I took that final scene to be Clara feeling utterly alone in a quiet flat, the way it feels lonely after a row, no matter how righteous one may have felt in the heat of the argument.
Love that. Beautifully put
6 October 2014 at 23:34 #33177Does 12 lie?
Like @Handles I think he possibly does the “lie of omission” more than outright falsehoods – when pushed, like in the Caretaker, he’ll say a bit more –
eg “Are the children safe?”
“no-one’s safe*… but they will be soon if you let me get on!”
Looking at this series so far it’s Clara who has been persistently lying/hiding things throughout. She hasn’t told the Doctor she was the thing under his bed (I still think he checked where the TARDIS had just been as soon as Clara was out of sight!), she didn’t tell him about her connection to the boy in the children’s home or her suspicion that Orson P might be her descendant (and she’s had the opportunity twice). She didn’t tell Danny she’s a time traveller, anything about the Doctor… or that she was the thing under his bed too. She’s still not telling him the whole truth about her travels.
Danny also is hiding things – the big mystery about what happened that (presumably) made him leave the army.
The Doctor’s disregard for his duty of care towards Courtney, a child in his care that he abandoned to die in a nuclear explosion that she would not have been exposed to had he not brought her there
No he didn’t. He very deliberately sent her to the TARDIS so she’d be safe*. I’ve liked Courtney’s arc so far and I think the actress did really well – how to be an official “disruptive influence” without actually being a pain in the a*se!
@lisa Pregnant you say?? Am going to have to get my bonkering/integration/retconning muscles toned up to work that in! Not a fan of that as an exit strategy for Clara, not least cos we’ve been there with Amy and it would be such a cliche for a female character. I can see where you’re coming from though.
*The Doctor’s definition of “safe” may be slightly different from a conventional human’s 😉
6 October 2014 at 21:43 #33156I am sympathetic to those for whom the science side of the show, especially this story, is falling short. But I found the character interplay and the central dilemma engrossing; for some reason it’s one of those stories that resonates with me and it’s been hanging around my head (in a good way!) since I watched it. For example I found resonances with the current environmental problems that we are trying to deal with when we don’t have the big picture. For all we know global warming could be down to a baby moon dragon or Silurians under the earth – but the way to deal with it is probably not by blowing stuff up. As an alternative to some big blockbuster catastrophe movies (eg Asteroid) that makes an interesting change, and one that is distinctively Dr Who.
Re genres – there’s sci fi, science fantasy… then there’s Doctor Who, which is arguably a genre on its own! If you have a show which can go anywhere, anywhen in all of time and space I don’t have a problem with it mixing genres and pushing boundaries. It’s been doing that since 1963. It won’t always work but I much prefer that to it taking a “safer” approach.
The Doctor lies and rules are made to be broken. 🙂
6 October 2014 at 20:00 #33153No need for DEMs when you have emotions and character interactions to deal with. Not to mention uppity, ungrateful “assistants” (female natch) who don’t know their place and insist on taking centre stage and it being all about them.
😉
6 October 2014 at 19:45 #33148I agree – Clara (series 8) seems a bit disconnected from Clara (series 7). I suggest a couple of possible reasons for that –
1. the possible side effects of jumping into the Doctor’s timestream. She survived only because she was rescued by Matt, and it was touch and go, so a PTS reaction wouldn’t be unexpected. She wouldn’t remember anything her Claricles experienced, and it’s understandable that her recollections of the timestream are vague as she was only semi-conscious by the end.
2. Looks to me that some time (action packed by the look of it) has passed since 11’s regeneration into 12. There’s no way of telling how much time Clara has spent in adventures with Capaldi, in addition to her real life. That time travel thing can undermine a girl’s recollections.
I do think however that we are meant to see Clara in series 8 as post-Impossible Girl. No more Claricles. Unless as someone suggested, Missy is a distorted, vengeful Claricle. But that’s a wholde other theory!
I also don’t think the Doctor had any intention of abandoning the group on the moon. He just removed himself temporarily while they take the decision which he (rightly IMO) says is not his to make. It’s about responsibility and being grown up. He just doesn’t explain it very well. But he does very clearly indicate which choice would be the right one before he leaves. Then puts his faith in Clara (while she loses hers in him).
Re it being 3 women deciding on whose rights take precedence – a callout to the Fates/Norns/Macbeth’s witches perhaps?
6 October 2014 at 01:19 #33104@arbutus Haha yes, synchronicity 😉
I’ve said it before but this Doctor seems to be more pragmatic than 10 and 11. He understands that he can’t save everyone, and doesn’t torture himself about the ones he can’t save. But he couldn’t have been clearer in telling Clara which decision was the right one. As far as he’s concerned he’s been explicit. He doesn’t understand that she still sees it as a dilemma.
6 October 2014 at 01:09 #33103@arbutus I agree, I think Clara’s memories of being in the Doctor’s timestream will be very hazy. Maybe he did a wee memory wipe as well after he carried her out.
@thebrainofmoffat Spiders everywhere – you’re too right! A monster one just scuttled across my kitchen floor!
6 October 2014 at 01:00 #33099I didn’t think the Doctor was remiss re Courtney. He sends her to the TARDIS where he knows she will be safe. Then he turns his attention to the moral dilemma. (And yes @melloyello I liked when she pushes buttons on the control panel. I presume the Doctor has put the safeties back on 😉 )
@arbutus @jimthefish I think the Doctor is trying to teach his teacher, and she deeply resents not being the one in control. It’s the situation Danny predicted at the end of the last episode. I don’t think it’s been unsignposted tho. Clara’s stress has been seen to be building up, starting with Deep Breath, when her faith in the Doctor is clearly shaken at his regeneration – this isn’t cuddly, friendly, same age and human-seeming Eleven. Her double life is exhausting her, and possibly ageing her, and her boyfriend and the Doctor are clearly at odds in some very fundamental areas. What would Danny have done if he had been with them this time…?
I can also see Hartnell’s or T Baker’s Doctors playing this exactly the same way.
6 October 2014 at 00:39 #33094Also, nobody at any stage, said that the newly laid egg was fertilised
Good point. And/or maybe these eggs lie dormant for millenia till something triggers their relatively sudden development.
(There are frogs in the Australian desert which can lie dormant for years, only emerging for a couple of days when the rains come. Then they go back to hibernation/suspended animation again till the next rains. But they have a helluva party for a couple of days!)
6 October 2014 at 00:34 #33092Some random thoughts –
The ramshackle nature of the “nuke expedition” – this is described as a private enterprise – it’s a thrown together crew of some of the last people who are willing to look outwards and try something, anything, cannibalising whatever remnants of space tech they can lay their hands on. Everyone else is trying to cope with the catastrophic effects.
The vote – no, it’s not exactly democratic but it’s a desperate attempt by Clara to avoid being the one who has to make the decision. She has less than 45 minutes to gauge public opinion. (And the lights have to go out for dramatic effect! Lights out and darkness reflecting that the choice is for death). In fact for humans to have any kind of future they need to let the creature live, but they don’t know that. Only Clara is in a position to make any sort of informed judgement – given her past experience of her travels with the Doctor, jumping into his timeline, the Moment etc. The Doctor clearly shows her what line to take before he disappears. But she resents her own lack of control of the situation, and the forced responsibility.
The moon dragon laying an egg immediately upon hatching itself – it’s a very rare creature in a very big universe. It makes a lot of sense that it doesn’t rely on sexual reproduction.
@melloyello Nice first post and theory. I suggested something similar (but not in so much detail) on the Deep Breath thread when we first met Courtney. (Which, given my hit rate on bonkers theories, makes it extremely unlikely! 🙂 )
Why hasn’t Danny had a trip in the TARDIS yet?
5 October 2014 at 23:54 #33088Sorry for the long rambling previous post – that was the edited version, LOL.
Couple of short things to add –
@phileasf Re your comment about this universe not conforming to our reality because it was rebooted from Amy’s memories –
Post of the thread!
@juniperfish -Loved your comment: “Peter Capaldi’s worlds weary misanthropy with flashes of his hearts of gold peeping through”
5 October 2014 at 23:51 #33087I seem to have enjoyed this a lot more than many other posters. had a WTF moment with the reveal of the moon as an egg but once you go with that there’s no problem… and it’s no more ridiculous than the whole premise of the show 😉
As @bluesqueakpip pointed out we don’t know all the science there is to know. (And I certainly don’t, so it probably annoys me less than those with a more sciencey inclination). For all we know the moon as an egg could have hatched and relaid an egg several times in earth’s history – humans just haven’t been around to see it. It causes short term (in earth lifespan terms) disruption to earth then everything settles down again.
The central dilemma is about finding out whether a lifeform is definitely evil/deserving of death or just blasting it to bits on first contact. While the Doctor does leave the humans to make the decision he has already well-primed them about what the “right” decision should be – all his talk about the excitement of a new creature. He puts his faith in Clara to make that decision, based on what he already knows about her. Sadly, but not unexpectedly, it’s only the 2 humans who have had experience of life beyond earth who are willing to make their own leap of faith. The lights going out was a shockingly depressing moment. The Doctor may or may not be lying when he says it’s a “grey area” – it’s not necessarily a fixed point but the future of mankind is changed by the decision. If they had chosen the other option and blasted the moon out of existence then mankind would have faced a very dodgy future. By choosing the leap of faith, they get a new moon and everyone lives. The Doctor sees the bigger picture, and for humans to “grow up” as a species they have to start to embrace a non humancentric view of the universe. It’s not all about us.
As several have pointed out, it mirrors the Doctor’s own experience in Day of the Doctor, but it’s also entirely consistent with all the Doctors’ view of the sanctity of life (inc 4’s “have I the right” in Genesis…) and abhorrence of the shoot first, ask questions later attitude.
Clara is annoyed for several reasons. Partly because she has just been pushed beyond what she feels are her limits – as Danny predicted last week. She feels she has been manipulated by the Doctor – and has been the cause of a major change in human history. She knows it was her remarks that pushed the Doctor on the journey, taking Courtney with him, and consequently into danger. But she’s also mighty pissed off that, like Courtney, the Doctor doesn’t explicitly acknowledge her as “special”. This Doctor is so much less demonstrative and verbal than his previous 2 incarnations. Perhaps, as @phaseshift suggests, it’s connected with going beyond his natural span of years. Or possibly he just doesn’t see the need to verbalise what he thinks is obvious.
5 October 2014 at 23:23 #330801 October 2014 at 22:48 #32846@juniperfish *waves back*
There is, isn’t there? (didn’t notice any red/blue streams particularly this week but lots of reflections).
Interesting you mentioned Professor Plum. I noticed Missy’s coat last week (plum-coloured) seemed to bear a bit of a resemblance to Matt’s last jacket (as worn by Capaldi in Deep Breath). More of a style reference than an exact copy. Hmm I need to find some photos…
And speaking of posting photos – where’s @wolfweed these days…?! Missing all the screengrabs and crazy captions 🙁
1 October 2014 at 22:42 #32844Thanks for the update on Gotham @phaseshift – sounds like it’s worth checking out
1 October 2014 at 22:40 #32843Any Peaky Blinders fans should be getting VERY excited. Series 2 starts on BBC 2 tomorrow (Thurs) night. The whole series is directed by Bells of St John / Sherlock director Colm McCarthy.
5 star, spoiler free review of episode 1 here –
http://www.cultbox.co.uk/reviews/episodes/peaky-blinders-s02e01-season-2-episode-1-review
(But def sounds like it’s for 18+ viewers only)
1 October 2014 at 22:34 #32841Just thinking about why the Doctor doesn’t want to bring Clara on this trip – another reason could simply be that, rather than still being insecure, that this Doctor is actually becoming quite happy in his own skin, and doesn’ t mind doing things on his own sometimes.
1 October 2014 at 22:31 #32840Nice thoughts on timings of the epsiodes (now thinking happy thoughts of Hallowe’en (thanks @phaseshift and @juniperfish (glad you’re still hanging in there))
FWIW I don’t think we’ll be losing any kids – been there, done that with River. But Danny could be fair game.
For those of us keen for an Ian Chesterton cameo – this is an interview with Caretaker writer Gareth Roberts where he says he’d love to see it too but didn’t want to include in this story as he felt it would overload it. No spoilers – but he does point out Coal Hill School’s motto (seen in the background on parents night) is ““a great spirit of adventure”, which is what the Doctor says about Ian and Barbara in ‘The Sensorites’. I thought that was a nice nod in the background.”
http://www.cultbox.co.uk/news/headlines/doctor-who-writer-on-possible-ian-chesterton-return
Aw 🙂
30 September 2014 at 01:17 #32726Sorry – was busy composing when you posted, so apologies for overlapping. Interesting link to Campassion. (Not sure about Clara, but what about Missy…?)
30 September 2014 at 01:11 #32724Had a rewatch of this and like it very much. It’s a lovely character study of the 3 main leads (which doesn’t mean I think they’re all necessarily likeable, although a lot of it’s very funny!) As @bluesqueakpip pointed out – they’re all lying to/hiding stuff from each other to some degree, especially Clara – “play rehearsals indeed”!)
The Doctor hides the true reason for his trip to Clara, presumably for exactly the reason she suggests – that he knows she won’t approve, but also because he thinks it’s a simple job. I suspect the caretaker guise has elements of him being a bit nosey about the boyfriend! (Love the scene when he’s on the ladder, with the pull-back to reveal it’s several floors up!)
Re bantering – between Clara and the Doctor – given the number of adventures to referred to at the beginning, it looks to me that Clara’s been going on trips with this Doctor for quite a while. They are very relaxed with each other hence the teasing. It could put the Doctor’s remark about her age in a slightly different light – remember Amy’s remark to Rory that they were ageing faster than their friends ie a year passing in RL could be the equivalent of several years if you add in the time spent time-travelling. It would also account for the Doctor not recognising the resemblance between Danny and Orson.
Also re time passing – Clara and Danny have moved on too – they are obviously well past the second date (in the pub, she says – “the usual”?). (See also the remark from Courtney’s parents to Danny about “you said last year…” which could be a generic reference to “the school said”, or it could imply that at least a year has passed) And yet she’s still leading a double life and not telling him anything about it. No wonder he’s suspicious – he’s on the back foot throughout this episode, trying to catch up. Lots of mirroring with the Doctor and Danny eg both “bump” Clara with her own phrase – “I’ve got a thing” – (The Doctor to go sneaking about the school, albeit setting up traps, Danny so he can spy on the Doctor).
The Doctor is justifiably angry when he realises that Clara has sneaked Danny on to the TARDIS with the invisibility watch. Wonder if Clara is going to fess up to Danny and the Doctor that she was dabbling in both their timelines. Not sure that would play out well at all.
Callout to Ian Chesterton? The Doctor keeps getting Danny’s name wrong – calls him Dave. As Hartnell used to mis-call Ian. 🙂
@blenkinsopthebrave Love your Powell/Pressburger comparisons. I think there’s definitely a stylistic ref in the white-corridored neversphere and the formality of the staff… and yes, I’ll give you Red Shoes as well. So long as they don’t go all Black Narcissus!
28 September 2014 at 23:22 #32659Agree with you about Capaldi really taking ownership of the role in this episode. He’s enigmatic, he’s grumpy, he’s witty… he’s the Doctor! (See my earlier post about him reminding me of Hartnell. Esp in 1 particular shot, towards the end – the camera angle is low, it’s just the Doctor, centre screen, in his TARDIS, and he looks completely at home. Also that we now have a couple of teachers and a recalcitrant teenager (all from Coal Hill School) as possible fellow-travellers).
Brilliant call on the comparison with the Powell & Pressberger film (tho I think there will be a more “real world” explanation).
28 September 2014 at 23:09 #32658I agree with you, there’s something very odd about Danny’s background tho I leave it to others more knowledgeable than me to work out the details of his soldiering history. (I liked the ref that others picked up on that the Brig became a maths teacher post UNIT)
As I said in a (very long) post above – it would seem that as a result of Clara’s interference in their respective timelines that Danny became a soldier, and the Doctor didn’t. Their respective futures may have played out that way anyway, but we don’t know that. They are also linked by the little toy soldier without a gun.
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