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@whisht

re the TARDIS on stage – I think you mean this one – and yes a mighty effort! (sadly both Shazz and Scout seem to have withdrawn from here but hope they’re both well) –

http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/forums/topic/general-theatre-thread/#post-25475

 

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@whisht

Ha ha, nice (I always miss the f*ckin obvious!). And of course there’s the “Pink” ref to Danny.

This could also work for Time Heist –

Of course there’s also Breathe (this clip couples it with Time ) –

(I’ll leave the obvious for next week’s episode!)

Apparently the Floyd’s next album is The Endless River (maybe they’re just trying to cash in on Dr Who references 😉 Or maybe it’s just a zeitgeisty thing)

Oh and thanks for the Jon Spencer Blues Explosion track, love that 🙂 So what are you doing, going to bed at 10pm…?!   Loadsa time yet!! 😉

 

 

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@whisht – No More heroes – great theme for this series. (And any excuse for Blood on the Tracks era Dylan is fine by me!)

Continuing the heroes theme -“we can be heroes – just for one day”

(And I’m with you on lack of classical music knowledge, but this thread has been a great eduction, thanks to @Purofilion and @arbutus among many – thank you all)

This has been hanging round my head since watching The Caretaker – for Courtney in particular, but also for the line “school’s been blown to pieces” – which it might have been had it not been for the Doctor)

(that’s also for @cathannabel who I seem to remember is a fellow Alice fan)

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@cathannabel Your son’s ears are good enough for me! Well until I came across @rob‘s comment – Auton otters indeed – I like 🙂

(And sympathies about your lack of wifi Rob – are you away playing in mud again…?!  Hope you at least have a surfeit of caffeine )

@badwulf – haha – I like your Missy is Rassilon theory (unless she’s @Handles’ dino-Missy).

1 thing I’m confident of – Nethersphere/Heaven isn’t anything to do with a spiritual/conventional religious afterlife (despite all the religious imagery that has been scattered through this series).  Probably!!  But I’m currently (temporarily!) stumped for a theory of my own as to how people get there.

@devilishrobby – I did notice that little exchange – didn’t comment on it cos someone upboard also picked it out neatly.

General – it looks to me as if Clara’s been leading her double life and travelling with this Doctor for some time now – look at all the refs at the beginning of this. Reminded me of Amy and Rory describing their “Doctor life” at the beginning of Power of Three.  I suspect it might be a bit like trying to sustain going out late night clubbing every night with a day job and (other) relationship. At least Amy and Rory had each other to keep themselves a bit grounded. Note their comments in that episode about how they were starting to age a bit faster than their friends.

(@CathAnnabel @badwulf  Re the “other place” – ” It was all about nihilism leading to series cancellation or somesuch” Isn’t it always??!  It’s a shame, I used to like playing over there but it feels like hard work a lot of the time now))

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Random thought – the “monster” – was essentially a soldier following orders – it checked in (to a superior, or to instructions in its databank) for orders in how to deal with a new threat, and you could argue it was defeated because it couldn’t think for itself.

And I thought “otter” rather than “auton” – there again I was probably overexcited about the River ref just before 🙂

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Meanwhile I’m ripping up all my previous theories about Missy and teleports 🙁  The PC doesn’t fit any of the previous patterns – not a sacrifice, and no possibility that he was physically transported in the instant before death.

The nethersphere is seriously creepy – “she’s very busy” then cut to Missy in very long, very empty, very sterile corridor. (Who needs a complicated set and props when you can have lots of white light and overexposure 😉  )

*Considers possibility of reviving VERY old dusty theory that the Doctor is actually a patient in a mental hospital and all of this is just in his head, LOL… ooops been done, wrong show*

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@whisht

Good to see you back.

re Clara’s age – I was wondering that. She’s been mentioned this series as being 27, which is, I think, several years older than she was when we first met her (in Bells… rather than as a Claricle). Has she been travelling with this Doctor for that long? Their relationship maybe suggests that she has. Danny notices that not only does she do what the Doctor instructs her to do, she also does it with complete confidence in her own abilities, which suggests that she’s not a rookie.  This is a side of his girlfriend he’s not seen, that she’s not let him see – no wonder he’s feeling less than confident about the whole situation.

Wait till he finds out that she dabbled in his childhood!   Just struck me that in Listen Clara is possibly the definitive influence in the development of both the men in her life, but that influence worked in different ways.  Danny becomes a soldier but the Doctor (presumably) goes to the Academy instead of becoming a soldier.

I liked the conflict between the Doctor and Danny.  They’re apparently well matched.  Like Rory, Danny isn’t afraid to call the Doctor out. But both are judging the other according to their own prejudices ie the Doctor’s aversion to Danny because he can’t get past the fact that he was once a soldier,  and we know from the hints that there is much more to Danny than that.  Danny can’t get past his identification of the Doctor as an “officer” and all his own experiences of officers.  But we know there is much more to the Doctor than that. Yes, he acts like an officer sometimes in that he’s the one who takes charge, and expects to (as he knows that mostly he is actually the most intelligent/informed/experienced person in the room), he is the one who lights the fire (nice callout on that @timeloop). But he’s also the (often reluctant) hero who saves people. Just don’t expect a gentle bedside manner with this Doctor.

I also liked the undercurrent of the monster as metaphor for the rumbling conflict between Danny and the Doctor. It’s temporarily hidden under the floor/in the time vortex but it resurfaces sooner than expected and has to be dealt with! Danny’s spectacular leap rather redeemed him – up till that point he’s a liability – he’s the one who scuppered the Doctor’s plan to kill the monster, albeit unintentionally. (I did love his comment about the Doctor being a Time Lord – dripping with sarcasm – well you would really, wouldn’t you?!)

As @juniperfish so brilliantly put it –

the irony at the heart of this episode is, of course, that the Doctor fails to recognise that Clara actually has chosen someone like him – not superficially a la bow-tie, but a scientist (mathematician) and fighter who has renounced war…

(And yes, hope your fins feel better very soon fishy friend, the glitter supplies are getting sparse 😉 )

 

 

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Lots to like in this, and I’m completely sold on Capaldi’s portrayal of the Doctor. Lots of callbacks to previous incarnations, Hartnell in particular for me, in this one.  He’s irascible, curmudgeonly and he’s not trying to fit in or “pass for human” any more.  As Vastra says in Deep Breath – this is the Doctor with the mask off, this Doctor doesn’t need to be liked. But every now and then there’s a brilliant flash of why he is very definitely still the Doctor – the recognition (in the middle of his own regeneration trauma) in Deep Breath that Vastra has set the dino-trapping gizmos to the wrong frequency and it’s causing pain, the very early empathy with the Teller in Time Heist – “it must be very noisy in there”, the encounter with Courtney this week – initially sees her as an interruption then when Clara and Danny aren’t available to play with he takes her on a trip to see the stars – a belated recognition of a fellow “disruptive influence” and of seeing under the surface of her behaviour (which no-one else seems to get beyond).

So – we are back at Coal Hill School (I thought the Doctor made a reference to its timey-wimeyness – something about Artron(?) energy and ley lines(?) which made it a pull for “monsters” (much like Sunnydale over the hellmouth in Buffyverse)). We have 2 teachers who may or may not both end up travelling in the TARDIS, and a “troubling” school pupil who has just had her first trip.

I did chuckle at Danny’s warning to Clara about not letting the Doctor push her too far – this to the Impossible Girl who “was born to save the Doctor” and who  jumped into the Doctor’s timeline, as far as she knew at the time, probably committing suicide!  May be just a bit late Danny! (But sweet!)

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Faith – interesting. It runs all the way through a lot of Doctor Who.

Faith in the right things is good, blind faith in anything isn’t. Ties in with all the religious imagery @bluesqueakpip and others have spotted this series.

Interestingly Rusty “does the right thing” ie sees that Daleks are not a benevolent force in the universe and should be destroyed, but with the “wrong” motivation – he does it through pure hate. Hate is bred into Daleks, pure hate is the best they can achieve. Maybe that’s a more honest motive than the Doctor (although maybe he’s getting close) or anyone else can achieve.

Rewatched Time Heist – still don’t see a reference to whose spaceship was circling above the Karabraxos planet. (Going to be gutted when this turns out to be a plot hole and isn’t picked up on again 😉 )

Just thinking about the Caretaker – Care-taker – as in the one who cares? (Can’t wait till tomorrow (timeshifting – blagh!))

 

 

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@phaseshift

Great to have you back. (Sadly I’m going to have to timeshift tonight – the new timeslot doesn’t half eat into Saturday night socialising time!)  Hope all the small furry animals cope without you – or are they big furry animals now?!

Btw I have a big stash of excalmation marks if you need any!!

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So many great posts.

@phaseshift and @chickenelly Love your galleries, great stuff

@mudlark Completely in awe of your Mozart spot. Someone on the production team would be so chuffed to know that was picked up on.

@Handles I see what you’re getting at with multiple timelines but it ties my little brain in gordian knots! Never thought I’d see the day when I’d think a Moffat Loop was the simplest solution 😉 (But keep up the bonkering!)

@Purofilion Have a fantastic holiday. Sounds amazing. I’m with @arbutus – prefer a snorkel. Deep diving is too technical 🙂

Woman in the Shop – I presume we’ve gone thro all the usual suspects – Susan, Romana (I and II), the Rani, River, the Doctor’s mum, Martha, Rose, Donna… I do think they’re teasing us even bringing it up again! Do we add Karabraxos to that list now? Presumably it can’t be anyone Clara’s met so far or she’d recognise her.  Her memories were wiped after she said “So that’s who… ” as she looked thro the History of the Time War book in Journey to the Centre of… Assuming it was the WitS she was referring to of course. Could easily have been something else.

Right – off for a rewatch of  Time Heist to see if  they say whose spaceship it is. (Desperately clinging to theory of it being Missy’s)

(Oh, and I like @idiotsavon‘s more-advanced-tesselector theory, that goes about saving people rather than “giving them hell”   I also like the idea of subverting the stereotype dominatrix/businesswoman/bitch from hell look of Missy but not convinced yet that she’s one of the good guys. That “boyfriend” line – oooh, doesn’t sound good!!)

And really looking forward to The Caretaker Looks great.

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@wolfweed @fatmaninabox

Ian Chesterton? 😯 Don’t see it myself, but would love it to be

 

 

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@juniperfish Hope you’re feeling much better

@pedant

I am more attracted to the idea of pink and blue as representing choice, in a blue pill/ red pill way. Moff is all about the metaphor.

Interesting comment in the context of this episode where they chose to forget. There’s a lot of potential gaps here, where other things could have happened. I’m still trying to work out whose ship they landed on (where they left the TARDIS). If it’s Missy’s it doesn’t necessarily mean they’re working with her, but it’s possible. Would be nice to see the sharp-suited boss-woman idea turned on its head.

@Purofilion Interesting idea to remove the music soundtrack (in awe of your geeky skills here) but I don’t think it’s fair to judge the episode that way. Like judging it on the leaked episodes which were pre VFX.  It’s made to be viewed as a whole.

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@bluesqueakpip @rob

Alternatively – the cat is an internet meme

Bloomin cats! It’s probably all their fault in the first place.

😉

@Tennantlove9090 Hope your brain gets unscribbled soon 🙂 Sounds like Fear Her syndrome – you may need a Doctor! (For what this episode’s about I suggest starting at the beginning of this thread. It may not help but it’s all that the hive mind has come up with so far!)

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@pedant

Turn your pedantic hammer/torch/screwdriver on the UK media in the months to come.

Like this?

Or this

Maybe this?

Exactly like those, yes! 🙂

(Sorry, my original phrasing was a bit clumsy. I also know many journalists (inc for the BBC, and of various political hues) for whom I have massive respect and whose integrity isn’t in any doubt. But it’s interesting talking to them about what story pitches are accepted and what happens to articles when they reach the subs’ desk)

More power to ya, Mr P!

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last couple of thoughts for now –

When Clara’s caught in the Teller’s “brain-grab” there’s a funny “wobbly” effect. It reminds me of the moment in Cold War when she almost drowned (LOTS of theorising  round that… which proved to be nothing). Cold War was also directed by Douglas MacKinnon – maybe it’s just a wee stylistic thing he has. (“Aaagh” she screams as she’s zapped by the Bonkers Theories Rule bot!!). though that thought would also lead me to all the political subtexts running under both of these stories. Go Douglas!

This Doctor has been accused of being callous – I think it’s just that he’s accepted that he can’t save everyone. Reg in Into the Dalek and the unfortunate bank customer in this one – who may or may not have been an innocent bystander. (He may not have been going to rob the bank, but what he was about to bank may well have been ill-gotten (subtext about the massively rich people who need to use the biggest, most secure bank in the universe?)

He’s still our Doctor though, just more realistic. In Deep Breath, in the worst of the regeneration aftermath (before the titles) he still recognises that Vastra’s set the frequencies wrong for the lampy-things she’s set up to control the dinosaur, and tells her to change them. Being the last of his kind isn’t the only thing he has in common with the Tellers, he’s also dealing with the mega overload of information from the universe, that he needs to be able to select the relevant bits from to make the right pattern. (Much like dealing with the internet being wired straight into your head I’d imagine!)

And the bank – is it just me or were other people thinking about Douglas Adams? If I’ve a criticism of this episode it would be that the security systems of the bank didn’t really seem to live up to the claims in their brochure. No CCTV in the rooms for example.  I chuckled at the breath activated door systems tho – what if you’d had a really badly behaved late night on the town the night before – would that affect your breath signature…? No need to blood test your employees – they’ll be “fired” when their breath isn’t recognised!! 😈

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@craig

Thanks Jonathan Richman – love that song.

This one for you –

“strange days indeed”

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OK

Little bit clearer today, I think.  @PhileasF your post made it a lot clearer. Of course they have to be able to mask their thoughts from the Teller. The Doctor could transfer in via the TARDIS before the solar storm, but couldn’t get through to the final part of the vault as the final lock needed the solar storm before it could be hacked open.

The Teller couldn’t rescue its own mate because it was always chained up (in Guantanamo Bay prisoner orange…?). A very Who-type reverse. You have this scary thing introduced which can turn your brains to literal soup, and which seems to be so uncontrollably dangerous that it needs to be permanently chained… then it turns out to be something that’s just looking for love and a cure for its headache!

On the subject of the Teller – it’s originally introduced as a creature who can “detect criminal intent”. That later gets reworded as “guilt” (or is it “gilt”?? 😉 ).  Why would it be interested in the people/creatures in Psi’s head – the sensorite wasn’t a burglar (tho one of them was double dealing), neither was the Gunslinger (who ends up as a good guy), or Absalom Daak (don’t know much about him, obv a bit bonkers but he kills Daleks). Tereleptils weren’t criminals or evil either as I remember.  And how did Psi get all these characters in his head? Is it from when he uploaded the bank schematics?

As others have noted – it’s interesting that it locks on to Clara – surely not just to give her something to do this week! (I kept being reminded of the “brick wall” thought in the Midwych Cuckoos book/(Village of the Damned films))

And has anyone worked out whose ship they teleported on to yet? (I’m still clinging to my “it’s Missy’s ship” theory, following @bluesqueakpip‘s observation about the teleport effect. HFM (from Deep Breath) could be the exception as he’s part robot so could be transported differently). This episode was very timeywimey and always be suspicious where memory worms are involved!

 

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@craig

As you’re about – can you fix the link in my post #32290 please?

And that’s great to hear about the fishy one.

*hits self over head for ungeeky skills*

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@pedant

I know you defend the media, and I often would too, but this campaign has been really interesting to watch who says what, and about whom. And what’s not reported. It’s not just Scottish paranoia.  And it has been bruising,  The so-called “riots” in Glasgow on Fri for example which went round the world were much exaggerated as far as I can ascertain from friends who were there. I’ve seen (in respected newspapers) reports of 2 murders and the Herald offices having been set on fire by No supporters. Neither of these was true. Social media is much worse. Pictures of old riots in Tottenham were used to represent Glasgow. There were at most 50 or 60 people involved and some flares, but with careful editing that was made to look as if half the city was in flames.  Today Glasgow’s  George Sq is the scene of a massive collection for food banks – I hope that’s being reported as widely.

You are right to be rigorous in demanding evidence, but individual cases can look like chip-on-the-shoulder stuff. It’s the cumulative effect.  Turn your pedantic hammer/torch/screwdriver on the UK media in the months to come. I look forward to discussing it further with you. I repeat what I said above – everyone in the UK should watch the media very closely in the next few months. Believe nothing and question everything.

 

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@jimthefish

Just reiterating – please don’t go. We miss you already.  We need your knowledgeable fishy bolshiness on here!

It’s been hard being in Scotland the last few days – hugely emotional for everyone, especially for anyone who’s been around for a year or 2 – there’s a general sense of we’re about to be stuffed through broken promises which didn’t even last 24 hours. But all of us who believe in social justice  need to work together in the next few months to make sure that cynical elite of ARSE’s in Westminster continue to be shocked by the electorate.

As @rob says “Bugger politics this is Who!!!”

And as the Doctor says – We need to be better than them. We need to be the best we can be

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@badwulf

I believe that they teleported to a ship in orbit, where the Tardis was also stowed.

Ah, yes you’re right, I’d forgotten (memory worms!)

But… whose is the ship? (see above re Missy’s world theory)

Why did the Doctor think they were suicide weapons, rather than thinking “teleport”?

@bluesqueakpip – I’m starting to think your original pre-series theory about the Doctor’s memories (and lack of)  being something more than a throwaway may be coming back into play.

Why did the Doctor write “I’m a Time Traveller” on the paper he gave to Karabraxos instead of telling her?

btw – re another bank robber – there wasn’t, there was only them.

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@bluesqueakpip

Tea?!! Will be interested what you think after rewatch.  Good call on the teleporter effect.  So… just a thought – did they say where they’d teleported to? Could they have gone to Missy’s “heaven”? (For a cuppa before rejoining the fray of course). Will need to rewatch myself.

Memory worms… hmm

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I really liked that.  A lot.  A good runabout but with lots of layers about greed and everyone’s price. And dead chuffed cause I reckoned the architect was the Doctor from very early on (for much of the reasoning the Doctor comes up with at the end – devious, timetraveller… why?!)

Another riff on the last of a species, and a callback to Hide again (after last week’s lost timetraveller) with lonely monsters being really starcrossed lovers, Rings of Akhaten -“eat my memories”.  A wee wave to the fabulous Orphan Black perhaps with the clones? And “the woman in the shop” –  Ha! I know when I’m being teased!!

Best of all I see the Doctor really becoming “the Doctor”, authoritative without being a bully. And a bit of confident charm starting to leak through.

Still unravelling the ins and outs of  it. Not totally clear why Karabraxos decided to phone him in old age. Was she finally feeling guilty…? And why did she change her mind about setting the Teller loose on the Doctor and Clara and tell the “guards” to take care of them instead?

Bit of a security flaw surely, that they don’t have security cameras and audio in the vaults…?!

 

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Haha @craig

You just beat me to it 🙂

Nice choices as well @wolfweed

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… Sly’s Thank You led me on a little trail. Not sure whose song came first but this is good too.

(Standing on) Shaky Ground

(Delbert McClinton)

FUNK-EEE

😉

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@whisht

Thanks for Mercury Rev (and Sly – 2 for the price of one 🙂 ) and thoughts. Their Deserter’s Song album was a staple of my walkman (ha! Dated, or what??) back in the day. (“Stones” – haha)

And in that spirit (and to celebrate bonkers spelling), a bit more of the Family Stone – Thank You (Falettinme Be Mice Elf Again)

 

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@bluesqueakpip

Nice post, thanks. It’s so very easy, especially with politics, to resort to labels, your side/my side, good/bad, black/white. Our parliament after all sets the standard.  It also suits the elite you describe to have us all squabbling amongst ourselves, demonising left or right, (yes or no), while they get on with consolidating a personal power base within that closed world of Westminster.  Political success comes to be defined relative to your personal career and influence rather than how you’ve made life actually better for people. I agree, it’s very scary.

The look of fear on Cameron’s face a couple of weeks ago when the polls suggested that the Yes vote might actually win is worth remembering. It had nothing to do with idealogical concepts of the worth of the Union, and everything to do with fear for his own career and legacy. It’s the look of a politician who is suddenly reminded how he got his job in the first place.  More politicians need to be reminded that they are directly answerable to the voters. And more voters need to be asking the questions.

I don’t believe most people in the UK would really prefer a closed-in, intolerant, ultra right wing party.  But when many people are struggling with the effects of policies which are designed to be divisive and exclude the needy, the natural reaction is to close in and be suspicious of “strangers” and “others”.

I love family arguments 😉

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Wow! Loads to catch up on.

Great discussion around the Faust themes. Fascinating that both Marlowe and Goethe had a change of heart about who to give redemption to (thanks @idiotsavon ).

I also liked the comment (sorry, can’t find the post to credit) about how 11 was the first Doctor to actually experience old age. Capaldi’s Doctor is now approx 2,000 years old. And yet he’s also had a rebirth, more than just a regeneration – the start of a new cycle. Self-questioning and a different perspective is to be expected and welcomed.

@spider and @fatmaninabox LOVE the Doctor-themed Mr Men

@whisht Great post re crosswords. I used to love crosswords a lot, but it would depend a lot on the compiler whether I could solve them or not. Some compilers I just didn’t get at all! (And thanks for the Quinch pic on the other thread which I can’t find now)

@Anyone who thinks bonkers theorising is stupid, or just not fun – can I (respectfully!) suggest this isn’t the right forum for you. (The clue’s in the Forum strapline!)

@jimthefish I wouldn’t knock Ben Wheatley, I liked what he did on the first 2 episodes, but I agree, I think MacKinnon is outstanding. Looking forward to seeing what he does with Time Heist, which looks like being more action based. Keep an eye on fellow Scot Colm McCarthy who’s just directed the whole of the new Peaky Blinders series. He hasa very different style from MacKinnon,  but his stuff has a verve and confidence to it which I really like. (Also directed Bells of St John and the Sherlock wedding one).

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Thanks @Handles and @arbutus for the drinks – much needed, it’s been an emotional week in politics for us Scottish folks.

It’s also been very interesting watching the various reactions and the reporting.  I do think a lot of the non-Scottish media have portrayed the referendum as an anti-English vote, and focused that in the person of Salmond. It was anything but.  It was a bid for the people who were resident in a particular geographical location to have a full say over their own affairs, regardless of genetic inheritance. The parameters set down in the White paper were outward looking and inclusive.

I think Salmond did the right thing in stepping down when he did. He’s seized the integrity initiative, which is a lot more than any of the other party leaders have done. Fellow UK citizens – there’s a General Election coming up in 2015. Get involved with it.  Watch closely how “the promises” made to Scotland are played out.  Look very closely at how things are reported in the media, especially the ones you think you trust. Question everything.  Analyse what you are being told as closely as you do an episode of Doctor Who. Look at the camera angles, the scene selection, what’s in the script and on screen – and what’s not. Look for clues as to the overall arc and character motivations. Check for sub-plots and hidden daleks! 😉

Scotland in the last few months has been a very exciting place to live as people, especially the youngsters,  have got more involved in the process, and been fired up with the thought that their voice can count. 97% of the potential electorate signed up to vote. 84.5% of them actually did. That’s a UK record. I’d love to see it broken next May.

I’m not worried about Salmond – he’ll be back. He’s going for more (political) regenerations than the Doctor 😉

Final thoughts – political discussions can polarise people. Political discussions online can turn downright nasty. This Forum continues to be a shining example that online civility (regardless of political affiliation, geographical location, even Doctor preference) is possible. We don’t always agree, but we do (mostly!) remember that the other person just has a different opinion, they’re not Hitler.  Thank you again @craig for setting it up and everyone who contributes with respect and makes it the lovely space it is.

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In response to @whisht‘s post re Scottish indyref in the Rose and Crown thread – how about this as an alternative?

(And yes you’re right, it’s gonna be a whopper! I’ve never had to queue to vote before. Ever)

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Oh, and welcome to @monangesolitaire

Look forward to hearing your thoughts and bonkers theories

🙂

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@whisht

Thanks (I think!!) for the video – well for the thought anyway 🙂

Just come across this:  Oor Wullie – the Movie*

 

It’s got aliens, and an awesome bucket

*Note: unless you are familiar with the words “Sunday Post”, “The Broons”, “Oor Wullie”, “jings”, “crivvens”, “helpmaboab”  the above may not make any sense whatsoever, and would require half a childhood to explain 🙂

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Welcome back @blenkinsopthebrave

Great to see you back. I presume your cellar is a lot less well stocked now!

🙂

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@oblique –

They’re far too complacent about their successes

I’ve not heard any interviews where Moffat or any of the creative team sound complacent.  The fact that Moffat’s scripts “unpack” to the detail they do suggests to me that there’s a lot of thought gone into all his work. Different writers write in different ways – some build from characters, some from stories, or a big visual idea, or a grain of a concept. But the current team are all fans of the show, Moffat more than most – complacency doesn’t come into it.

Doesn’t mean everyone has to like everything, and people have different opinions of course.

@spider – Re cost-cutting design – you build a time machine – you expect to re-use it, so you build it for more than 1 person, for future use. Maybe you modify and existing capsule design. (But only use 1 volunteer for the test run. Unfortunately he gets it lost and breaks it!)

@Purofilion Just made a big pot of deep roasted java – want some? 🙂 (Not at all sensible from my end at this time of night but got some late night deadline stuff to finish) 🙂

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@whisht @jimthefish @craig

Dangit! Now you’ve got me all excited again!!

Never mind once in a generational stuff – this is once in a lifetime. Cross-party, looking to the future, with a chance to actually effect change… and our elected representatives are actually listening for once. Well maybe not exactly listening, but they have noticed something’s afoot which might affect their own jobs.

Don’t expect any sense from this end of the county on Friday.  Just sayin’ 🙂  (Half of us will be hyper, half will be depressed and none of us will have had any sleep!)

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@bluesqueakpip

He is the darkness without which we can’t see the stars.

That’s beautifully phrased, love it. (I also much prefer the jumper to the white shirt, but that’s just me 🙂 )

Also loved the big close-up on the young Doctor’s pupil at the end, showing it full of stars. (Continuing the seeing/not seeing and eyes imagery which people have picked up on throughout this series. This one might be called Listen, but it’s about the thing in the corner of your eye, the movement in the mirror (and Clara has 3 of them) which you don’t quite see)

Just a thought – people have been speculating whether all life forms have the under the bed nightmare – maybe it is just humans. And the Doctor – because of his experience with Clara under the bed! It could also explain his affinity for humans – he’s had a very early, positive encounter with one – she soothed him back to sleep. I have no problem with him not consciously remembering any of this encounter. Dreams, even vivid ones, and middle of the night experiences, fade away in the light of day.

And I agree, we could have a lot more to learn about Danny. (Good point @thommck – you’re right, the Doctor hasn’t met Danny yet).  I’m keeping an eye on Courtney too (aka Whitney on @danmartinuk‘s blog 😉 )

@Handles Twelve could already have done the thirteen Doctors at Gallifrey thing – there have been gaps between every episode so far. In fact his obviously reflective mood at the beginning of Listen could suggest he’s just come from there!

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@pedant Will concede that it was, as you say, “a politician’s answer” but it was an answer, even if somewhat oblique. And implied that he should be trusted cos he knew his stuff about corporation tax and was consistent.  But Robinson’s way of reporting it implied that he said nothing at all, which is not the same thing.  And it’s not an isolated incident for him.

Not backing off but agree with @jimthefish – small forays and minor skirmishes are fine, but these boards are probably best kept for bonkering. And it’s getting a bit late in the year for cold showers 😉 (Just don’t get me started on the number of times Farage has been on Question Time…)

@arbutus – Someone was talking to me recently about the Quebec referendum. Interesting parallels.

Last word from me for now – it IS a mighty unusual situation, and I only hope everyone on both sides of the choice and of the border, stays positive and civil afterwards. There will be a lot of work to do whatever the result. And if some of our politicians have suddenly become acutely aware of who put them in power and to whom they are directly answerable, that is no bad thing for democracy. Long may it continue.

 

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@bluesqueakpip –

why did the Doctor have him enter the restaurant sealed inside a spacesuit?

Maybe he was trying to be subtle…?  He could’ve parked the TARDIS in the restaurant instead 😀

(Not convinced Clara is necessarily his grandparent. She might be, but Orson was very specific about being non gender specific and singular. Maybe Danny’s already been timetravelling.  This is a guy with secrets, we’re just assuming they’re all about being a soldier)

Oh, and kudos to whoever mentioned Orson Well(e)s earlier – fell off the sofa at that 🙂

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And what about Courtney?  The mouthy kid that none of the teachers like, who has a name and has been in, or mentioned in, 3 episodes out of 4 so far. A bit Mels-ish perhaps? Coincidence? (Not on this forum! 😈 )

 

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@handles Nice idea about the “monsters” being sideways or parallel to our universe. For some reason I keep remembering that the original title for season 7’s  Hide was apparently Hider in the House. Which also featured a pioneering and lost time-traveller. Who was a descendant of the people who found her. (Crosses fingers that @janetteb might get her Susan wish granted 😉 )

Also think @juniperfish‘s red/blue double timelines theory may still be splashing about a little. Red blanket on Rupert’s bed (And a noticeably pink shirt on Danny – am amazed Clara didn’t crack a joke about that!). Was the boy-Doc’s blanket blue? (it was hard to tell – Straws? Grasping at? Meee??).

I liked the look of shock on Clara’s face when she realised whose leg she had instinctively grabbed, and the implications of that action. Nice direction in giving it time to sink in.  Good on Clara for letting her caring instincts take over before she went back to the TARDIS.

OK – so who thinks for 1 second that the Doctor won’t peek at where the TARDIS has just been as soon as Clara’s left him alone…?!

(Just a thought – Gallifrey is no longer timelocked, but just (very well) hidden (another hidden thing?) after the Doctors zapped it away from the Dalek assault in Day of the Doctor.  Maybe that’s why they were able to land on it, in its past. Its present whereabouts may not be accessible but its previous where((and when)-abouts are accessible again. At least when the TARDIS safeties are off. You’d think the Doctor would learn. The last time he switched them off was in Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS – and look what happened then. The TARDIS really should have an over-ride switch  – a Doctor silly decision failsafe switch).

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@thommck

One part I don’t really understand is why Clara is lying so much. To Danny, Orson and the Doctor. Is she just scared of the timey wimey repercussions our does she not really trust the Doctor anymore?

I think it’s because she’s just started dating Danny – it’s not even going that well. She’s not ready at this stage to open up to the Doctor about what her feelings for Danny might be. (Look what happens when the Doctor finds out she’s on a date – he pitches up in her bedroom and offers to check out his prospects! Talk about overprotective!).

This is big stuff for Clara – imagine finding yourself in the childhood of the person you’ve just been on a 1st date with! And having not fessed up to that connection it becomes more difficult to explain when the next person you meet just might be your own great grandchild!

I think it’s partly the timeywimey implications as you say (and she’s clearly terrified about the implications of landing so early in the Doctor’s own timeline and interacting with him as a child – but it’s her empathy and kindness which take over – this is a deeply unhappy child – her instinct is to reach out and comfort).  And she is unsure about this Doctor – she’s not worked out the relationship yet.  He was a pseudo boyfriend-substitute as Eleven, but Twelve is different.  I suspect Twelve wouldn’t be up for using the TARDIS as a substitute turkey-cooker.

I like that Clara could have been the key influence in both the Doctor’s and Danny’s lives. She’s the “monster” under both their beds.

(Creepy children’s homes are a bit of a Who speciality – so the caretaker(?) just shrugs off that there’s been a complete stranger (albeit with psychic paper credentials) walking thro the home to do an inspection at 2am! Reminded me a bit of the home in Day of the Moon).

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Brain melted – in a good way. And lots of great comments on here as ever.

The idea of the Doctor as a scared and lonely child – the literal outsider (as @phaseshift says) – that works for me. It’s also consistent with  the whole history of the Doctor and his affinity with lost and lonely children in particular.  He recognises it – he’s been that child.

Agree it’s very timeywimey – Clara repeats to the child Doctor the words she’s already heard his adult self say. Interesting thought that the Doctor’s paranoia about the “thing under the bed” actually comes from this. ie As a small child he has his fears confirmed – there really is a thing under his bed!! Even if it’s benign and not evil. The Doctor asks the question at the beginning – what if we’re not really ever alone? What if his viewpoint is skewed – from the memory of all those Claricles bumping around his life…?

Presumably this could be the definitive moment in the young Doctor’s life – where he decides he doesn’t want to be in the army and will study to be a timelord instead.  Why doesn’t he remember this moment? We forget huge amounts in our lives. Like the nightmare monsters of our dreams. Things that were hugely significant when we were 8 get lost in the piles of later adult memories. They can be triggered though – like my memories of the under-bed things which came back in force after watching this episode (it was always a yeti or a cybermat for me!)

I especially liked how on several occasions Clara, and the Doctor, were the “under the bed things”.

And yes, lots of references to previous episodes, especially Hide and Midnight (where the monster’s identity was never resolved. Its motivations are also not revealed).

Agree with @pedant and @bluesqueakpip – all these references to the date of Clara’s death do not augur well for her long term future 🙁

It’s certainly heavily hinted that Orson is Clara’s descendant, but I agree that could easily be misdirection. The family history is unclear and I think Orson replies that a grand(great grand)parent (singular) was a timetraveller.  He’s clearly related to Danny but he’s not necessarily related to Clara.

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@bluesqueakpip

What the current debate is showing with startling clarity is that people’s voices count – IF there are enough people participating. And suddenly politicians are realising that they might actually be held accountable. (And thro the ballot box, not with guns)

Apologies to the rest of the UK, but if 1 partner decides they want to talk about leaving a partnership then they shouldn’t be forced to stay by the other 3 partners.  Yes, the result of Thursday’s referendum in Scotland does affect the rest of the UK (hopefully in positive ways, many of which are not yet apparent), but that IS democracy.

 

 

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@craig

Thanks for starting this conversation

Why can’t people be allowed a free choice without scare stories and intimidation that keep all the vested interested happy?

Vested interests – you’ve answered it yourself. eg majority of the current cabinet have direct links to private health care providers and pharmaceutical companies – and are making decisions on the future of the NHS.

@wolfweed

86% turnout? Really? That would be phenomenal. That’s why Cameron and co are running scared. That is not the status quo.  I’ve never seen so many people actively engaged in political discussion, ever, and not just the usual “oh it doesn’t matter how we vote, it’s always the same people who get in”, people are engaging with the issues.

@timeloop @pedant

Re checking your facts – BBC bias –  this was broadcast by the BBC recently – “respected” BBC reporter Nick Robinson blatantly reported that “Salmond didn’t answer the question” – cut to the unedited video which shows that in fact there was a detailed, reasoned, 7 minute answer to his question.

http://tompride.wordpress.com/2014/09/11/bbc-reporter-caught-red-handed-manipulating-video-in-scottish-indy-campaign/

 

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Greetings!  Been AWOL again this week, but been enjoying all the comments. @markymoomoo, @whoville, @mudlark welcome to the forum and great first posts.

Welcome also to the new members who obv read the Etiquette doc and decided to give an example of what we meant, point by point! Bit of advice – don’t bother!

@phaseshift – re McCoy episodes – start whenever you like! Sylvester salvaged 80s Who as far as I’m concerned, despite the Beeb’s best efforts to kill it off.  My 1st vote for Fenric (@Whisht’s reasons also get my vote!), then Survival, mainly cos I haven’t seen it. Also it’s got cats in it (as @mudlark mentioned), and it was written by Rona Munro, one of the few female Who writers And a fellow Scot to boot.

(Talking of female writers – anyone been following Philip Morris (lost prog hunter) in Twitter recently? He seems to be on a 1-man mission to hammer the show over its lack of women writers… and anything else he can think of. Or is it just an excuse to have a go at Moffat (seems no love lost there at all).

Right -0ff to warm up the TV – sooooooooooooooo excited about Listen.

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Very late to this – lots of good posts (of course!). Not a lot to add, except that I enjoyed it much more than I expected to.  Good series pacing I think, light before next week’s very dark-looking story.

@thommck – I thought the robo-knights were pretty scary, and agree with you about the holy cross death rays. I thought they were a crusades reference. I think Robin’s wound in the the fight with the Sheriff shows that he’s human (tho it’s possibly left deliberately ambiguous).  I found the callous killing of Quayle quite shocking (even if the Sheriff’s sword looked remarkably clean and shiny straight after) in the context of this being a “light” episode.

(@Craig @bluesqueakpip – can we talk about the cut scene here? (and does the cut scene mean this counts as a 2-streams story?!!)

And yes the golden arrow stuff was a bit naff – especially when they had a whole cauldron of the stuff bubbling away in the castle (nice touch with the gold hands just not quite getting out (as someone else mentioned, neat Terminator 2 ref))

@wolfweed – awestruck as ever by your spotting and freeze framing skills. But is that not just Clara’s reflection on the spoon? Curvy surfaces are notoriously tricky in what and how they reflect. Although given the amount of reflection and mirror-y things so far I wouldn’t rule out something else.

Some general thoughts – lots of things in this series are reminding me of early BG Who – in the scene in the prison for example, I kept thinking of  Hartnell in playful mood or Troughton having a strop.  The pacing as well is much slower than in Smith’s or Tennant’s series, and much “smaller” stories, albeit against a (possibly) bigger arc.  The Doctor not being happy about Clara telling his backstory seems like a callout to the early days too, when the Doctor liked to keep a low profile.

 

 

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@arbutus thanks for posting Dawn of Correction – I definitely hadn’t come across that before. Ah, the era of answer records! (And I LOVE After the Goldrush).  And yes earbuds under the covers – many’s the time I woke up half strangled 🙂 Well, we seem to have survived it so I think you’re right about cutting your kids some slack about the modern equivalent.

@thekrynoidman (like the new avatar btw) You have a great way of digging up obscurities. Tho to include both the Hoff and Jonathan King in 1 post is an evil scheme worthy of the (Anthony Ainley) Master 😈

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@pedant and @pufferfish seem to be in perfect harmony with the Skids (thanks to both of you)

@drdai Welcome. And well done on wading thro 274 posts!! Maybe you’re right – the Doctor starts a regeneration cycle looking older then gets progressively younger (more or less).

@brewski love the QE I as Missy theory – you nearly have me convinced

@wolfweed – Wicker-dalek – that’s really freaky 😈

 

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@juniperfish

Re – War Doctor/Healer Doctor + medical ship/army ship + 2 streams facility + good man/good dalek etc –

This is why we’ve missed you!! Hope you feel much better very soon. (What colour are your tablets btw – not red and blue by any chance…?!)

🙂

(And LMAO at Pink-icles!)

This Doctor knows he didn’t kill all the children on Gallifrey – but he also knows he was going to (till Clara’s intervention).

However in mitigation of this incarnation – a bit I noticed in Deep Breath, but then forgot to post – at the beginning where he’s just staggered out of the TARDIS, with his brain completely stewing with the regeneration, where he’s trying to work out where he stops and others begin (me/not me), just before he faints – he tells Vastra that she’s set the wrong frequency on the lamp-thingies she set up for the dinosaur, that it’s causing the dino distress. This is still a compassionate Doctor – just one whose social/communication skills are a bit lacking.

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