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@blenkinsopthebrave

Hi fives on the Missy/Master call – there are some cookies and jellybabies beside the sofa for all those who guessed write. And your expulsion notice from the Failed Theorists Club is there too – effective immediately!

Also well done re your call on the comparisons with A Matter of Life and Death. I think this will continue next week with some sort of bargaining being done for Danny’s life, with Orson being key to it (assuming Orson is his descendant).

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@thommck @jimbomcmaster

The clicky fingers occurred to me too – especially since there was such a point made of it (in the Caretaker?) when they both do it. More than once.

(Jimbo – recent discussion you initiated re when the Doctor will rewrite time/go back on his own timeline and impossible decisions seem to be bang on topic)

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@miapatrick

Different phone call…?  I didn’t pick up on that 🙁  Are you saying that because of the post-it notes? (Will need to rewatch)

One thing that has slipped down our collective awareness – well mine at least, and it’s just occurred to me – Missy’s “Clara, my Clara…” hasn’t been explained yet. (Tho at least there was an explanation about the ipads, LOL). Is there a suggestion there that Danny’s death has been arranged, to get Clara to bring the Doctor to Heaven/Hell.

I’m saying again – dream inducers!!

@phaseshift… DWF Calendar – we ARE talking about cross-dressing avatars I hope…? 😈

@spider – yes I  loved the “ranting Scotsman/no match…” line as well. (And seconding @juniperfish in a deep bow to your journey to acceptance. Masterf… er missyful 😉 )

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@bluesqueakpip

Re Orson – further to my post above, and what you were saying about Danny already having a family – if he doesn’t and Orson is his child, but not born yet, does that not create a paradox with the gunless soldier being given to the young Dr, as it came from Orson to Clara?

@phaseshift We demand pics of you cross-dressing 😉 (And agree, she’s very much a Delgado Master)

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Kudos to everyone who called it re the Master (adds a big bowl of jelly babies to @timeloop‘s cookies).  And also to Blenkinsopthebrave (not tagging cos of time diffs) – there’s a lot of nods to A Matter of Life and Death, re the appeal for Danny to get a new life… assuming it is Danny of course. Wonder if this is where Orson comes into it – if he is Danny and Clara’s descendant, could he be the leverage for getting Danny back?

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@phaseshift

Some people are really going to hate this.

Is it really bad of me to find that roll-on-floor funny 😆

I thought it was audacious, brimming with confidence and very emotional.

And I’m glad it’s presumably not Gaiman’s instant-upgrade cybermen. Much as I loved them in lots of ways, it’s a bit of a writer’s dead-end.

Possibly my fave line of the episode – pre-birth babies making phone calls to each other!! WTF???? Give SM the  Bonkersist Theorist Award NOW! We are out-bonkered by the master (small m, hehehe)

 

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Loved it!

Brain exploded. Lot of dust around as well… *sniff*

Dream inducer… just putting that out there now!

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Very VERY late to watching and commenting on this. Only advantage to such extreme timeshifting is that it’s a VERY short time to wait till dark Water. Oh my heartses!!

Lots of great comments (as ever!), too many to credit individually. While I didn’t hate this episode, it’s my least favourite of the run. Which even I find odd, as someone who loved Kill the Moon, trees in general and eco-themed Who. I liked a lot of it, but really wasn’t keen on the solution of using 1 small child’s voice to appeal to the world. I liked the concept of humans having to save themselves (by doing nothing (also like KtM)) but even my suspension of disbelief was feeling challenged!

@mudlark and @Purofilion – thanks for the comments about deep, dark forests of fairytales (a regular haunt of mine also as a child).

I’m assuming Maedb’s sister’s disappearance was connected with the sudden appearance of the neighbours’ hydrangea bush… kidnapped by the little sparkly things to create a link to the people of earth? (And why the name – Annabel Arden is a reasonably well known real life theatre director!)

Danny! I still think he’s a good guy but his secret is connected to Missy/Clara’s future. In the context of Dr Who it’s very strange that he hasn’t travelled on the TARDIS, and in fact (as @bluesqueakpip pointed out) he can’t wait to get off it.

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@spider

Sorry – didn’t mean to repeat most of what you said – synchronicity (great minds and all that, heh heh)

Re River’s link to Clara – that was as a result of Vastra’s “sceance meeting” in Name of the Doctor. That’s how the Doctor knows Clara is still alive in his timescar, because River says she is still connected to her. I think that link has also long been broken. But you never know with River. (I live in hope of a reappearance 🙂 )

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@thommck

I agree with you, I think we’re done with Claricles.

I think they were “single-use” only. GI jumped into the Doctor’s timescar and changed whatever, hotly followed by Clara to rectify. Both split into “a million echoes” (paraphrasing) of the original. Then they’re done, and gone. They may not even go thro a whole lifespan – maybe they materialise at the crucial point in the timeline to whisper in the Doctor’s ear or whatever – they only think they have a backstory, it may just be an echo of Clara’s original life. Clara only got out because the Doctor went in to save her. And leaves carrying her (it’s his timescar, he should know his way around it 😉 ) I also agree that there was a bit of memory loss for her, after that traumatic experience. Or the Doctor did a recuperative memory wipe – we know he can.

She didn’t recognise the War Doctor because as Eleven said “he’s my secret” – the memory of a self which he buries deep in his subconscious in order not to think about what he (thinks) he did in destroying Gallifrey. (Eleven is “the one who forgets”). And Capaldi wouldn’t be in there, as you say, because the additional regen cycle hadn’t been granted then.

The fact that Series 8 Clara has been developing as a character surely suggests that she’s the original.

 

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@xad4

What a lovely post. PP is new to me, good find, and a lovely dedication.   I’ve been missing @htpbdet too.  I’m sure he’d have loved Capaldi’s Doctor, there’s so much Hartnell and BG inspiration in it, would have loved to have heard him expound on it!  It will be exactly a year ago on Saturday, I believe, since we lost him.

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@Purofilion (hope you’re feeling better btw)

Managed to get a closeup of the brooch (just as she finishes saying “…chosen well”) but I can’t post it on here as it’s not an already online pic. It looks like it’s probably a conventional cameo profile – but, it could be Medusa (snake headed woman of Greek mythology who could turn people to stone (and no, I don’t see any significance in that! Although… Medusa was a Gorgon, 1 of 3 sisters, 2 of whom were immortal. And we did have the 3 women in Kill the Moon, deciding the fate of the moon dragon (but I thought they were probably referencing the 3 Fates)).

One thing I did pick up as I was slo-mo-ing through the previous scene – Danny phones, Clara rejects his call (interestingly she has an “at the cinema”, “in a meeting”, and various other options for rejecting a call – not a travelling with the Doctor one). She still has her phone in her hand.

The Doctor does his “goodness had nothing to do with it” line.

Then he says “You’d better talk to Soldier Boy”.

Clara immediately replies with “It’s not him”. Her lying is most definitely a BIG thing!

Is that the line Missy is responding to, that automatic lie?

As far as we can tell, Clara is till holding her phone. It’s a phone hack I tell you!

 

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@Purofilion

Too late! I now have a fixed image in my head of a large slimy mat of slugs 😈

Caterpillar tracks, LOL

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@davros It was a non speaking role so they don’t have to credit

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@thommck

Great posts, great links!

(love the VFX blog one, and the caterpillars. (Can only imagine what the slug mat was like @Purofilion. Sounds like the stuff of nightmares!))

Re the background in the Missy screengrab from the end of Flatline – that looks very like a cyberman style eye to me (on the right). Does that rule her out for being a Time Lord?  What’s the detail on her brooch? Can anyone make that out?

She could very well be the WitS, and I agree it links in with the “feeling of being watched” and all the eyes that various people have pointed out. There’s also an underlying theme of “not seen” throughout this series, and various possible explanations – phaseshifting, teleporting, imagination, being 2D in a 3D world, invisibility bracelet. I did wonder about the optic nerve hack, but surely the Doctor would notice it. My fave at the moment is that she’s hacked Clara’s phone (ties in with the WitS, which is what brought Clara prime into contact with the Doctor in the first place (in Bells of St John).

Re a “thing” being a “thing” in this series… I think it’s just a thing! (And yes wasn’t the Thing thing a great thing!!)

@blenkinsopthebrave Love the Marco Polo pic (*sigh*). Ha! The TARDIS was frequently picked up and transported elsewhere in the old days. Don’t remember its weight ever being mentioned. It’s nice they’ve dealt with it now.

@juniperfish @bluesqueakpip

It was a great character development for 1 series (when they had no idea if there would be any more than 1 series) to have the Doctor responsible for the destruction of Gallifrey but when it started to leak into 2 regenerations later it was a bit limiting narratively. So it’s great that it’s been addressed properly, and sorted by the Doctor as soon as he had the chance. Although he must still remember that he would have pressed the button, when he saw no alternative, so there’s still an underlying darkness if the writers want to tap into it.

I’m wondering if the line in Deep Breath about doing something about the bad things he’s done was a reference to the events in Day of the Doctor – as 12 hasn’t done his bit yet, or at least, not that we’ve seen. I do like the idea that all the blackboard equations is him working out the calculations (for Day of the Doctor) by  the slow method.

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@geoffers @davros @craig

If you do want to post that screengrab of the unblurred young Doctor, can you do it in spoilers please? It’s not something I want to see!

Thanks

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Mega apologies @thommck

(I forgot which thread I was on)

😳 😳 😳

Maybe a passing Time Lord (@Phaseshift, @jimthefish, @fatmaninabox ? ) could mod the offending last paragraph (post #33925) out of existence, for future readers.

<goes and sits on the naughty step>

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@pedant

Good points.

There’s also the reference to the Big Bang in Mummy… about the phone call in BB being GUS. So that’s 3 callouts to that episode so far. Any more I wonder?

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@Purofilion

LOL at Clara PrimePlus! And you’re right – after everything she’s been through it’s a wonder she’s any sort of normal at all. The timetravelling with the Doctor isn’t necessarily a problem in itself (tho it looks a lot like burning the candle at both ends while melting it in the middle as well). Lying about it to your SO definitely is.

Unless of course there’s another explanation… Clara becoming more Doctorish is keeping her cards close to her chest – she suspects Danny of playing a double game (or being up to something not good) so she’s observing him and not telling him about every time she travels!

Thanks for the reminder about the various nods to the date of Clara’s death. I’d forgotten about those.

@blenkinsopthebrave – I will happily settle for a grand-daughter proof if you can’t manage daughter.  Have uncorked a nice bottle of Shiraz to for you in the Rose & Crown, to help your bonkering.

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Nice pic of “Fear is a superpower” @thommck. Thanks for posting

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@davros

That was explained in-episode. When the Doctor does his “dad skills” finger to the forehead thing with young Danny to put him to sleep he mentions to Clara that he’s done a memory wipe as well.  Tho that’s not to say that Danny doesn’t remember anything at all at a subconscious level. His becoming a soldier for example might not have happened if Clara hadn’t used the toy soldiers to guard his bed and given him the example of the soldier who was “so brave he didn’t need a gun”.

(And who’s to say a traumatic incident – in the next episode or 2 – might not bring his memory back again 😈 Pesky things memories)

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@jimbomcmaster @bluesqueakpip

It’s an interesting discussion! A thorny problem!

I do think that Day of the Doctor showed that choosing the bad option (as opposed to the worse option) isn’t good enough for the Doctor. He has to find a third way that doesn’t involve killing all the children. The option he found isn’t necessarily a great one either – depends where Gallifrey ends up, but it’s presented as definitely better – it’s an option of hope. But I do think that the “impossible choice” situation has been dealt with.  And there isn’t a worse possible choice scenario that the Doctor could face.

While it was a good idea when RTD brought the show back, as time went on it became more difficult  for the writers to deal with. That kind of guilt – genocide of your own people – can’t just be shrugged off/written out without trivialising it. But after several series it becomes limiting for the writers that this is the defining trait of the lead character.

You’re right Jimbo, that he can’t go back on his own timeline without outside (Timelord) agency.  I’m sure that’s been spelt out in various episodes, inc the ones you mention.  In Day of the Doctor we were shown the very end of the Time War – Hurt Doctor is exhausted from years of being a warrior.  The emergency committee state that all their weapons have been used, except for the Moment (which is presented as the weapon of absolutely last resort). The Daleks have broken through their defences and are rampaging round Gallifrey itself.  This is definitely the end game. There’s nothing left, except for the Moment.

It’s maybe worth noting  that the TV Movie, with McGann, actually did have the Doctor go back on his own timeline to undo the deaths of 2 characters. And it was a shit move dramatically (in my opinion)!  To have him undo death puts him back in the god-like position that Moffat has so carefully unpicked over the last 3 series, so that we once again have a Doctor who isn’t all-knowing, all-powerful. Consequently deaths of characters have a dramatic impact on the Doctor as well as the audience. It’s not so much it’s the rules, as just not possible. (Where on earth would he stop? How would he choose? You can’t stop everyone dying!)

As opposed to “fixed points” which are fixed in order that the most desirable outcome (from the POV of whoever decides it’s fixed) continues to happen. eg there are probably consequences to humans spreading throughout the universe (following Adelaide’s space-bootsteps (in Waters of Mars)) that presumably timelords think are desirable/what happened.

In his defence, in Mummy, there’s nothing he can do until he knows what he’s dealing with – he can’t see it, sense it or feel it. When the Captain indicates where the Mummy is, the Doctor immediately tries to stand in its way. It walks straight through him (loved that effect!!). And although he knows he’s about to die, as @bluesqueakpip says, the Captain feels better about himself than he has for years, has found himself again in many ways. I found it very moving. (It reminded me a bit of Octavian in Flesh and Stone). If you bring him back to life you devalue that scene and rob it of its emotional power.

• This reply was modified 11 years, 9 months ago by  JimTheFish. Reason: Possible spoilers. At request of original poster

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Phones!

Woman in the shop!

@janetteb You suggested Missy was watching Clara through her phone. Who gave her that phone? Assuming she hasn’t changed it since BoSJ, then the WitS also gave her the phone. With spying devices incorporated…?

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@badwulf Sympathies on having to watch alone. I find it infinitely preferable to watching with SO, who thinks cracking jokes throughout about Daleks not being able to climb stairs is still funny! (I tried it once, it’s better this way!)  Hope you can persuade Mrs BW back to the fold tho.  I agree – I thought of the Time Meddler too, that scene made a big impression when I was wee.

In addition to phones, we’ve had “invisible” monsters throughout this series, including the Doctor at one point. The thing you can’t quite see unless you catch it at just the right angle – “What’s that in the mirror, in the corner of your eye, what’s that footstep following but never passing by?”

 

 

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@janetteb I do like Clara’s development so far this series, and I’ve said the same as you that as fictional characters, none of the characters need to be role models.  I’m more of a mind that Clara’s lying will motivate Danny to do something (follow her perhaps) that puts him in danger – Missy’s collecting soldiers after all – and that Clara will have to face up to her responsibility for it as she and the Doctor rescue him.

@geoffers Yup, Mathieson’s blogs are really interesting. It’s not often you get that much of a look behind the scenes. He also mentioned that he had to rewrite when he was told it was to be a Doctor-lite episode.  He’s clearly in awe of Moffat, and seems to have had a really positive experience working with him (or he’s just making sure he gets asked back, haha). I think it was @bluesqueakpip who mentioned that Moffat has said that he doesn’t write particular Doctors, he just writes the Doctor and leaves it to the actor to put a stamp on it.  But maybe other writers have different methods, especially if they are not as steeped in Who as SM is. Neil Gaiman said he wrote NiS specifically for Smith.

@rob Glad to see the caffeine’s working well 😀

I have a tiny TARDIS on my keyring – takes on a whole new significance now! (Doctor in my pocket – squeee!)

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@fatmaninabox Love your idea that the equations are the calculations for moving Gallifrey in Day of the Doctor. (All the others have the sonic working on it in the background – 12 goes for the blackboard 🙂 )

@barnable (are you back to Barnable, I get so confused!! 😉 ) That really was a note to myself, but kudos to you for ‘fessing up if you think it applied to you. Your Timelord in training theory re Clara looks a lot less bonkers after this week. (I’m not quite jumping on it just yet though).

@lisa There are lots of different kinds of cybermen. Could be lots more out there that we don’t know about 😈

@blenkinsopthebrave Clara as the Doctor’s daughter – not really convinced, but I love it anyway.

@janetteb I think Missy is definitely corporeal, and yes that image at the end does look very much like the Doctor’s POV.  Her “Clara, my Clara” comment keeps sticking in my mind. The other person we’ve heard say that was Eleven… so is she… (dun dun dun!)… the Valeyard? (not original idea, and not one I’m particularly fond of,  for all sorts of reasons, but it’s niggling me). The other “evidence” is her wardrobe – seems very reminiscent of Smithy’s purple jacket.  Agh! I miss @wolfweed‘s photographicy research skills. (In fact I just miss @wolfweed 😥 – hope he comes back soon). The Doctor’s bad side that wriggled out in between 11 and 12?

PHONES! It all keeps coming back to phones. WitS refs (which starts (real) Clara off on her travels with the Doctor), Karabraxos has the Doctor’s no, GUS, the people on the phone in Flatline when they are attacked. Clara keeping in touch with Danny by phone when she’s off with the Doctor (just what tarriff is she on??!).  OMG – is Moff putting something in the phones now…? 😈

“I chose well” – Doesn’t mean she’s already “got” to Clara, but that she’s planning to use her in (the presumably not too distant) future.

The other thing I’m reminded of, with all the talk of soldiers, inc @phaseshift‘s mention of remembrance day coming up (in this anniversary year) is War Games, the last Troughton story. Which was the first story where the timelords were officially named.  Could Missy (as rogue timelord, valeyard, tardis etc) be collecting the “best” soldiers for an army/armies? I’m also thinking about @janetteb‘s spot on miniaturisations, the toy soldiers in Listen, the manipulation by an (initially) unknown agent in Time Heist...

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Apologies to @pedant – Credit where it’s due re the DMH info. Thanks

Ditto re @phileasf Apologies for repeating your thoughts on Missy.

Note to self: read ALL the posts before posting!!

 

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@soundworld (hope your recuperation is going well)

Good spot on the Edwin Abbott Abbott connection. That’s why Rigsy’s estate is the Abbott Estate ( blog from writer Jamie Mathieson explaining the background to the episode Also includes the drawing he pitched it with)

@bluesqueakpip Fair enough point re Clara going to the bad being another flawed female needing rescued. Hopefully she’ll see it herself and realise that it’s the lying that’s the problem.

@gothamcelt  Nice:

…Alice and the ‘Drink Me’ potion. We have already seen references to Robin Hood and a dragon. I am sure there are others. Next episode shows a girl I a red coat running into a dangerous  forest. And we all know what’s in there – The (Big) Bad Wolf.

@glenisterm 12’s still got a LONG way to go before he approaches 5’s tendency to bring everyone and their granny into the TARDIS 😉

(I thought the dead man’s handle thing had been fixed (post Pelham 123) so that it couldn’t be rigged this way. But I see from other posters (elsewhere) that this is an older style train)

Missy – so far we’ve had “my boyfriend” and now “my Clara”. Does that mean it’s Clara who’s the chosen – or someone close to Clara? (looking at Danny again!). If it’s Clara, does she knows she’s been chosen?  How is Missy watching her? (If she’s hacked into the Doctor’s optic nerve (as he did with Clara) – surely he’d know?). Does the Doctor have an idea something’s going on? Is that what he’s trying to work out with all the equations?  Was his paranoia in Listen down to more than Clara being the thing under his bed? Maybe he was right, and he isn’t alone. She’s “saving” soldiers/fighters – is she building an army for him?

Last thoughts, for now – The Thing is a thing!! (Addams Family ref – hand in the box)

TARDIS in seige mode – I WANT ONE!!!!

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@Purofilion I agree the distance is different.  Twelve’s immediate predecessors gave the illusion of more human, approachable (huggable) Doctor (as you say) – which is not to run down either of their portrayals (it’s what Capaldi is building on). I just really like the slow build in what PC is doing. I suspect there may also be elements of – let’s take Colin’s turn as #6 and show how it could have been done.

You say –

I think that Missy could be a collection of atoms re-created into a whole sub universe with Seb and Missy as creator when Clara became the Imposs Girl.

Wow! My little brain’s not coping with that!! (Been out, too much alcohol to compute 😉  )

Love your comments about light in different places.  I love the delicacy of light in the north; someone told me it’s to do with lightwaves being seen differently (longer/shorter) according to the curvature of the earth so it appears a different colour depending on which latitude you’re at. And depending on the light leakage from cities as well.

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Ah, apologies – @bluesqueakpip – Who nerd supreme

*slaps self on back of head to learn to check sources properly! (even blue squeaky ones!! 😈 )*

@purofilion – dragon fruit – ooh yes please,  can you chuck one over? (Well I guess the heat’s a high price to pay – but that selection of fruit looks great from a cold, grey and squelchy UK (and, yes, it’s dark too 🙂 ).

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@bluesqueakpip

Congrats on your (virtual) award of  Geek of the Week on the G 😀  (They’re a bit slow over there, we’ve known that, like, forever 😉 ).  The train no spot should get you Geek of the Universe!

Anyway – champagne cocktails (as @Purofilion so aptly suggested) all round – CHEERS!

@idiotsavon @janetteb

The bar’s been restocked – scampi fries, pork scratchings, exotic fruits

jelly babies…

anything you like for snacks and drinks.

Message from the Manager: Normal service is resumed. Huge apologies everyone. Like @spider we accepted the offer of free tickets on the Orient Express and got kidnapped with her to the Nethersphere.  Only just got back… but so MUCH to tell you all, you need to know… hang on what’s that…?

Oooops!

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Agree with @idiotsavon – good spot from @janetteb re miniaturisation this series.

<waves @Purofilion > Great to see you back Puro, sorry you’ve been ill. Hope the drugs are working 😉 I think maybe this series has been about putting a bit of distance between us and the Doctor, in terms of re-establishing him as more alien. But I agree that Capaldi’s been great, I love his portrayal. I also think it’s been a slow unveil/discovery which culminated in the speech at the end of tonight’s episode when he fully took on the mantle of the Doctor.  His delivery of it was interesting, compared with similar speeches from Smith and Tennant – authoritative with less swagger (I thought).

@strax

Re watched the episode.  At the start, the guy on the phone distinctly said “I figured out who HE is”.  I’m leaning more towards the he is the master and the master is the she.

That sentence confused the hell out of me – especially given your general confusion over gender!! 😀 (Welcome to the forum btw)

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@pedant @bluesqueakpip

I agree that it could go either way with Danny, but for now I think he’s a good guy.

He hasn’t been at all controlling with Clara, even passively, in any of the scenes we’ve actually seen him in. He’s been very patient (maybe too patient (suspiciously patient??)) with her, even when it’s obvious he’s being lied to. She’s been “mysterious” throughout their relationship, keeping her other life as hidden as possible. He’s been stood up at short notice many times for spurious excuses. Was it just me who laughed out loud when he said it “sounds physical”/cut to grunts from Clara and Rigsy as they try to manipulate the (Prisoner style 🙂 ) chair out the window? 😳

Been thinking again about Orson… why does he have a TARDIS spacesuit on?  They obv have others in the wardrobe dept, as shown in Kill the Moon. Therefore it’s a deliberate production choice.  Going back dig out the Danny is Orson theory again… Hmm. I’ll be very surprised (well not really, cos I’m usually wrong 🙂 ) if we don’t revisit that… and the gunless soldier before the end of the series.

Lies – Clara discovers that the Doctor lies to give people hope, which will motivate them to try to help themselves. She has an awkward moment as she tries to say her lying is the same thing when she clearly knows it’s not.  So, has Missy chosen her because of her lying/her addiction to timetravel/danger, or is she lying because she’s working for Missy? When did Missy choose her? How far back in Clara’s story does Missy go?

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And very interesting speech from the Doctor to the “monsters” at the end. Clearly parallels Smithy’s to the Atraxi in Eleventh Hour, and in the Pandorica.

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Lots to process, not least that so much of our recent discussions in here have bubbled up to the surface.

Clara’s lying is definitely a “thing”. And not a good thing. And it’s different from the Doctor’s thing when he lies!

You were an exceptional Doctor Clara, goodness had nothing to do with it

That line gave me chills! Anyone else think of Rusty’s comment to the Doctor in Into the Dalek – “You would make a very good dalek”? The compliment with a very sharp double edge. (as well as channeling Mae west as @mudlark pointed out)

The Doctor’s role as “hero” (@jimboMcMaster, @bluesqueakpip ) and whether it’s enough to make a choice for the good of the many at the expense of the few – he is the one who repeatedly points out to Clara that a lot of people have died, with the implication that that result is just not good enough.

Were the Boneless(?) draining power from the TARDIS? Were they accessing it through the Clara/Doctor “phone” link? The first victim we saw, and the policewoman were both on the phone when the attacks started.

(Oh, and yes I liked it a lot! Listen and Mummy are still my faves from this series tho)

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Agree with @juniperfish (and thanks again to @phaseshift and everyone for contributing to the soapy discussion)

It’s noticeable that a lot of people who use “soap opera” as a criticism for DW also tend to be the ones who throw “deus ex machina” and “sloppy, lazy writing” into the mix without expanding on why they think that. Or complain they couldn’t follow it while tweeting, texting, phoning etc.

Sloppy, lazy criticism IMO 🙂

Really looking forward to Flatline. Same writer as last week and Douglas MacKinnon (Listen, Time Heist) back in the director’s chair. And he’s promising scary on twitter… even behind the sofa might not be safe!! 😯

See you all on the other side.

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Thanks @thommck for the Human Universe link. (My iplayer to watch list is piling up!)

 

Is anybody watching Peaky Blinders…? ANYONE?? @fatmaninabox??

Would love to discuss what the hell’s going on!

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@pedant re Z Cars

…how very innovative and daring it was, how very much it was the antithesis of Dixon of Dock Green. It was thoroughly rooted in research and travelling with real coppers – and broadcast live, with the scripts tweaked to take into account the days news (or football results in one case).

Completely agree.  Sadly a lot of the episodes suffered the same fate as early DW and are not around any more, tho I think there’s still a good few early ones out there.

You could even argue that the current DW character-based stories owe it a debt (she says in a desperate attempt to avoid the wrath of the topic dalek 😉 )

I liked its offshoot Softly Softly as well. Nice link, and yes it’s a shame these early pioneers are passing unmarked.

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@wordmuse – thanks for your contributions and sorry this series isn’t panning out for you. It’ll change again soon enough (and maybe I’ll hate the next one; we all like different things as you rightly say). Maybe it’ll turn round enough for you to like it before the end of Series 8.  You don’t need to worry about the ratings though, they are remarkably consistent around 7million for time adjusted, with approx 1.5m more for the 1st 7 days on iplayer. Audience appreciation index 82-85, which has been consistent for the last few series. It’s even holding up well in its new timeslot against X Factor.

http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/doctor-who-series-8-ratings-accumulator-66394.htm

 

@bluesqueakpip

Poor Danny! He gets so little screen time (so far) and he’s lambasted for being boring.  But I agree, and I’ve said a few times, that it’s very odd he’s not been on the TARDIS yet. Or has he…? 😈  I don’t see him as controlling, but he’s being so accommodating of Clara’s time travelling that he comes over as much too passive and bland.  It’s as if whatever happened to him on his “bad day” has damaged him so much that he’s afraid to engage with anything, too scared to challenge Clara in case she leaves him completely.  It’s not a good dynamic for a relationship.  Tho we did see another side to him in the Caretaker – much more of an enterprising soldier/detective in following his suspicions.

Re his second date accusations of lying – yeah, that was a bit off.  But he’d bumped into her at least twice when she’d had an unexpected change of clothes and almost seemed like she’d been on another planet(!) – his instincts are telling him this is 1 strange woman!  However I think the accusation was there to highlight how much he hates lies (Who’s lied to him in the past? Something to do with his bad day again?).  And Clara’s piling them up, even if it’s sometimes with best of intentions. (How do you tell someone you were their “thing under the bed”?!)

“So, who’s the lady he’s not here to kill?”

Indeedy 🙂

And why 23 wells?  Why so specific?

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@jimthefish

It was McGrath’s TV and Film (inc the Billion Dollar Brain and the Bofors Gun) writing in the 60s  that set him up enough to go with the theatre thing when he got the chance.  Michael Billington’s obit is informative and moving.

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@jimthefish @mudlark

Re Z Cars – Another early writer was the late John McGrath who went on to create 7:84 Theatre Company and arguably re-invented theatre in Scotland – politically charged, with a local voice, and fun (“a good night out”).

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@pedant

What a great link, thanks for posting. And completely agree with @blenkinsopthebrave – there’s some great TV in there (and don’t you dare knock Dixon of Dock Green!! (though I jumped ship when I discovered Z Cars)).  Sadly I was mostly packed off to bed before TW3.  Though I remember seeing some of them so I must have sneaked back up again!

@phaseshift

thanks @scaryb for the Vampires in Venice suggestion. More Toby Whitehouse.

Haha – you said that through gritted teeth, didn’t you?!!

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@whisht

Soap!!!

I loved that show.

And agree, some great discussion on the nature of soap opera as a genre. As @phaseshift says, UK soaps in the 80s were trailblazing (in subject matter and in playing with the format), especially Brookie and Eastenders when it started. But it now covers such a wide range of programmes that it’s not really helpful as a term of criticism.

I think it often comes down to expectations and personal preferences. I like the ongoing character arcs on the whole, and I like that Clara seems to be digging a hole for herself. I like that I’ve felt like shouting “noooo! just tell him!” at her on several occasions. But I do agree that she seems to have been separated from her “I was born to save the Doctor” persona of series 7.   But she’s a good bit older now, and she’s had a lot of adventures with this Doctor that we haven’t seen. And who’s to say how much she even remembers of being in the Doctor’s timeline. She only got out at all because of the Doctor, otherwise she’s have been disintegrated like the GI. Maybe the Doctor did a kindly wee memory wipe as well, to sort out any PTSD issues.

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@thatoneguy

Is the Nethersphere referenced by name in the Big Bang? (I don’t remember that but haven’t watched it recently). Your comment suggests it might be similar to the phaseshifting which happens to the mummy, and which has been referenced by several people on here.

The phone call (which was about “An Egyptian goddess loose on the Orient Express, in space”) was referenced directly, by the Doctor, in Mummy… (and pointed out in the notes section in the official website).

 

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@fatmaninabox

Well done on the TARDIS spot in Brunel. I completely forgot that was there.

(Also for @whisht (and ta for the Smiths –  have we had the Smith’s on here before…?), @arbutus )

Came across TMWWNBBFN playing live, accidentally a year or 2 back. Late night/early morning, you’re on the way home… but then another gig jumps out at you and insists you come in…!  Thought they were great  – but a definite tendency to earwormery! Based in London – recommended if they’re gigging your way

Self described as: Crusty punk meets cockney sing-songs meets grindcore in the 1880s

1 of them’s a comedian

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@Handles

You’re right – always room for more Clash (@TheKrynoidMan I’m with @arbutus – liking the Clash is definitely a sign of intelligence, discernment and generally being ultra cool!!)

Intrigued by @whisht‘s Red Snapper (new one on me (but so much on here is 🙂 )) tho I can see why @idiotsavon‘s dog wasn’t so keen!

@xad4 Lovely clip from Blackpool. Not seen it – seem to remember hearing good things about it. cast is good for a start.

@arbutus – that’s a tough choice for Mystery Train- the band with Butterfield… or Elvis’s throbbing bassy backbeat… ahem… scuse me, I need to go and take a cold shower!! 😳

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@spider

Gallifreyans Using Stealth – love it! (Especially as it circumstantially supports my theory that Missy’s world is on Gallifrey (on the opposite side to the bit we usually see).

@wordmuse @jimthefish

I like the companions having back stories and non Doctor lives, so long as it doesn’t feel tacked on (which is possibly the bit we may disagree on re Clara!). I don’t see any need for any of the characters, inc the Doctor, to be role models for anyone. They’re fictional characters (*gasp! heresy!!*) – I’m interested in them having an inner life, but they don’t have to be right all the time.

Clara’s got herself a bit stuck with her lies/omissions. It was difficult for her to tell the Dr why they went to Danny’s childhood in Listen, (new relationship, still unsure, the shock of finding out where they were etc…) but having started on that course she then had to repeat the omission with Orson, and then with the Doctor himself. I still think that’s going to have consequences for her.  For now she thinks she can have it all – travel with the Doctor for what – a night, a week, a month…? And still get back for teatime. who’ll know? Ahem! This is the control freak, remember (she’s even described herself as “the boss”).

But who wouldn’t have problems giving up travelling in the TARDIS and taking the slow road?!

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@jimbomcmaster

Re the Doctor having to choose between 2 bad options, and having to choose for the “greater good” –

He’s already done that, at the start of AG Who, when it was established that he had pressed the button to destroy Gallifrey. The choice was to kill everyone, including all the children, on Gallifrey by pressing the button or let them suffer in the continuing Time War.

He resolved it in Day of the Doctor by finding a third option, at Clara’s insistence. For the Doctor “the lesser of 2 evils” isn’t enough. There HAS to be a better way. He suffered for nearly 10 years (our time) because of making himself choose a bad option.

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@phaseshift

Yay!! Vengeance 😀

Faith and myth are going to be difficult themes to sift out.  What about Vampires of Venice (continuing the vampire theme)? Not a massive fave, but it’s on-topic. And interesting to see the different ways of representing vampires.

Meanwhile…

to pass the time till Saturday… ever wanted to build your own Dalek? A real, proper, psychopathic, exterminatey one? None of yer crap model stuff here. This is the real deal.  Might take a year or 2 but it should be done by the 100th anniversary (the mutations take a while!). Which will give you time to save up the required £16 bn. 😈

http://www.peter-capaldi-news.com/blog/doctor-cost-making-real-dalek/

(As recommended by Peter Capaldi)

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Happy Birthday to Katy Manning (14th Oct)

(Who says all this kissy/huggy stuff is only in AG Who? 😉 )

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