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13 October 2015 at 02:39 #44645
@purofilion Reading your post and remembering @supernumerary’s suggestion that the 5th was an overused choice, it has occurred to me… wouldn’t the opening of the Waldstein sound fabulous as performed by Capaldi’s electric guitar? 🙂
12 October 2015 at 19:58 #44623@lisa @gothamcelt Does anyone know why the groups of black birds might be given such interesting names (Conspiracy of Ravens, Murder of Crows)? There must be a reason, historically, presumably something to do with the negative image of those birds. But it would be interesting to know more about how it came about.
@mirime Yes, same here exactly. I came to the show as a young adult, late in the Tom Baker era, and had a roommate that I watched with back then. But nowadays, I am alone in my fandom, except for this great place. I’d love to hear more of your thoughts about Waters of Mars and Kill the Moon!
@blenkinsopthebrave It is also possible (although considerably less interesting as a theory) that the Coal Hill School reference was put in place for the 50th (it worked so well in that opening scene!) and simply retained throughout Series 8 because it was a useful setting for Clara.
Incidentally, I wonder, if Clara is indeed a Bootstrap Paradox, where does that leave Dad and Grandma? Unless it is Clara’s mother who is actually the paradox? Or am I just confusing things?
12 October 2015 at 19:48 #44621@mudlark Well, yes, exactly. And, currently, a Scottish accent. 🙂
Seriously, there is a possibly surprising number of people who played in rock bands and then went on to science careers (the lovely Brian Cox comes to mind, but I have encountered others, recently). Brian May skewed the other direction, but music and physics don’t seem to lie as far apart on the spectrum for some people as they did for me! My husband has a doctorate in music, but also an undergrad in geology, and my son, whose main interests lie in technology and physics, is becoming a fairly serious chorister as well. I am more of a one trick pony myself.
The Doctor, of course, should be as broad as possible in his interests.
12 October 2015 at 19:40 #44619@Supernumerary While it might be considered a cliché, I think that if something is presented for a purpose within the narrative, that shouldn’t negate using it anyway. In this case, of course, to draw our attention to Clara’s situation.
@janetteb @juniperfish I would have to agree that, if Gallifrey is to be brought back, it would only be worth doing if it could be treated as an opportunity for proper, in-depth world building, with Joe Citizen as well as Time Lords, and the occasional exploration into how those aspects of the society fit together. That could be interesting, especially if they don’t overdo it and spend too much time there all at once.
@jphamlore Interesting ideas, both about Clara and the Nethersphere. I agree that I would love the Doctor travelling with less long-term companions for awhile, and I think it’s something that would suit this particular incarnation well. Both because of where he finds himself in his own development, and because I always enjoy his brief relationships with the different types of people that he meets.
12 October 2015 at 19:24 #44616@jimthefish There seem to be two types of whiner on the other site. There are those who have liked no Doctor Who since RTD, and there are those who have liked no DW since 1989. I suspect that the majority of those complaining now still prefer the RTD era show, which to be fair had quite a different feel than Moffat’s less blockbuster, more timey-wimey approach.
I was also amused to see people complain that the show is making itself inaccessible to casual or new viewers, and then complain again because the show takes a few moments to explain a concept that might be unfamiliar to casual or new viewers. And as for the people complaining because an episode takes some of its ideas from someplace else, I wonder whether they understand where stories come from? Almost nothing is ever entirely new; all it takes to understand the truth of that is a browse through TV Tropes. 🙂
For myself, I must say that this current era is working up to being my favourite of the AG show. I didn’t dislike RTD’s years; if I had, I wouldn’t have continued to watch, as I was playing catchup at that time and it was costing me actual money. 🙂 There were always things I liked and things I didn’t. But as far as suiting my tastes, I found that I liked it better as it went on, and I felt a whole new love once we reached Series 5. For me, 6 and 7 never matched that height, but I appreciated on the whole what Steven Moffat and Matt Smith were trying to bring to the show, with probably a greater depth of interest than I had earlier. And when Capaldi came on board, it all seemed to gel for me, pretty much immediately.
Is he the stern father figure. The aloof professor? No, he’s the ageing rock star. And I think it works really well. Even more, I think he’s the aging rock star who reads books on philosophy and quantum physics in his spare time, who has embraced social media and supports the occasional cause, without wearing it on his sleeve too much. I agree that the quest of last series, to rediscover himself and his purpose, has led to a very good place indeed.
12 October 2015 at 19:14 #44615@bluesqueakpip Okay, I hadn’t read your most recent posts before writing the one above. 🙂 I very much like the idea that Clara might end up leaving Earth and staying on someplace else where she is needed, as Romana did. I quite liked it in Last Christmas, when I briefly believed that Clara had gone on to live a full life to its conclusion, because I really wouldn’t be happy with the notion that there was no way she could move on from Danny’s death. Her words to Bennett suggest that we might be moving in that direction (i.e. finding a new purpose, possibly away from Earth). Given your regeneration idea, maybe on Gallifrey?
12 October 2015 at 18:53 #44611@bluesqueakpip It also fits thematically into the larger story Exactly. Both times they have used it, in my opinion, worked really well within the bigger picture, the second time particularly, as I thought that the whole “breaking the 4th wall” scene was really atmospheric and fun.
And this: Thematically: using Capaldi’s guitar skills recasts the Doctor as ‘rock star’. Not ‘comes down from the sky and tears down your world’, more ‘turns up, trashes a few hotel rooms, does the gig, buggers off’. That is a really nicely drawn image, and bang on, in my view.
Also, Clara. If you look at her career, it’s a succession of long term jobs where she stays as long as they need her. Indeed. And she chose to stay with the Doctor for that same reason. However, now the question is, does the Doctor still need her? I think we are seeing a situation where she needs him more than he needs her, which, given that this is the Doctor, might not end well. He says he has a responsibility of care, but I’m not convinced that he really feels that as it relates to individuals. Not that I think he would ever actually abandon Clara, as he is well aware of all he owes her, but he might well abandon her emotionally. This might already be happening. I think that the part of the Doctor who put her to bed with jammie dodgers, and sat guard outside her house all night, is currently well submerged in the complexity of the Time Lord psyche.
12 October 2015 at 17:23 #44604Also, welcome @cumquat. Absolutely brilliant first post! 🙂
@purofilion Some of those forum rules I have seen before but a few are really strange. Don’t use replies or tags? So they actually don’t want conversations at all, which I thought was the point? And don’t use Latin is just sad. I used to be better at Latin than I am today, but if someone can use it, more power to them, I say! 🙂
Your birthday party story gave me the giggles. Arbutus Jr. went to a party when he was around 8, where the mom had organized a Star Wars theme. She gave all the little boys toy light sabres and was really surprised when it all went pear shaped!
12 October 2015 at 17:19 #44603I missed this recent bit of chatter as I was avoiding the Forum until seeing Before the Flood, and by then of course, my Activity page was so filled with that that I never got this far.
Welcome, @winston and @mirime! I too was a long time lurker, only breaking silence after the 50th anniversary, when a particularly impressive post impelled me to give it a like. I had never posted on a fan site before (still don’t, except here), but this one is fun as people are very clever and funny, as well as being polite to one another! I feel as if I have made some nice friends here.
Winston, I live in Vancouver. A few years back, we made a memorable drive across Canada to Halifax and back, and saw a lot of Ontario in the process. I had not spent much time there prior to that, except around Toronto, so it was eye-opening. (Well, the whole trip was that.) Whereabouts is your country home?
I have to add my praise to @purofilion’s about the various threads on this Forum. I have learned about much music, literature, and film through people’s posts. TV particularly, as I am not a big TV viewer anymore, and found some fun stuff through people’s recommendations. I had a blast last spring binge-watching Farscape on Netflix, and learned a great deal by so doing. I learned that “Oh, yotz” is an even more useful expletive than swearing by Almighty Zarquon. And I learned that lots of planets have an Australia. 🙂
12 October 2015 at 01:38 #44541@jphamlore I would think that, just because those people thought they could go back and change history, doesn’t mean they actually could do it, and do it successfully. Look what happened when River tried not to kill the Doctor. 🙂
Also, I would add my caveat to @bluesqueakpip‘s, that just because a popular film deals with an idea, doesn’t mean everyone watching DW has seen. I did see it, but only because I happened to be on an airplane where it was available.
And, judging from the commentary on the Guardian, awareness of the concept doesn’t lead to understanding or agreement on how the concept played out. In fact, I may just have answered my own question about the need for the Doctor’s explanation at the end. Because now there is at least one thing that has been clearly stated– that the Doctor only acted because he told himself to act (in a sense) and not because he “thought it up” at any point. Even thinking you understand the basic concept of a causal loop might not make that clear!
12 October 2015 at 01:30 #44540@Supernumerary
Yes, I think that the manner in which they gave us the causal loop clue in the intro was meant to turn it into a sort of super clue. (I rather suspect that @bluesqueakpip‘s theory is correct.) It also meant that we were thinking about causal loops all the time we were watching the episode. I’ll have to keep this in mind on my second viewing, to see if it enlightens me. It’s less clear to me why they also felt the need to have the Doctor recap the concept at the end of the episode. If we’re going to complain about unnecessary exposition, it would probably be the second one I would complain about.
I don’t agree with you on the issue of romance, partly because I just don’t see that we have been given this over and over, as you suggest. We’ve been introduced to lots of people working together in groups without any hint of romance. In this case, I thought that the bond between Cass and Lunn was especially clear, although nicely understated until the end. And clearly the reason for the double hit of romance was to direct us toward Clara’s situation. This was just about the only place in the episode that, for me on first viewing, pointed clearly at a series arc. Her advice to Bennett, and his advice to Lunn, are there to demonstrate that Clara is not happy, Clara is making the best of a situation but it is clearly not what she wanted. In fact, I wonder if Clara is actually turning herself into the Doctor because, lacking Danny, she can no longer be Clara?
I knew immediately that certain elements of this story were going to be divisive. I liked the guitar, because I thought it demonstrated the Doctor’s playful side. Just as I enjoyed the Doctor playing football in The Lodger, as one of many previous examples. Matt Smith could handle a ball, so they let him. Jon Pertwee liked motor vehicles, so they gave them to him. Capaldi can play the guitar, so put one in his TARDIS and let him rock out a bit. Why not? But it clearly won’t appeal to everyone.
11 October 2015 at 23:45 #44531@lisa That may be true. It wouldn’t surprise me if it were; equally, I wouldn’t be surprised to hear him say, “Oh, cool, I hadn’t actually thought of that. I was actually channelling …” Some other source. Myself, I don’t have a strong view either way. 🙂
11 October 2015 at 23:06 #44523@denvaldron 🙂 Yes, well, speaking as someone whose significant other is now employed by a company involved in the sausage biz, I can say that principle is sound.
Seriously, I don’t actually think that Moffat sat down and asked himself, “What thematic ideas can I mine from the Tarot?” More that those underlying themes are present in lots of mythologies, and different people have probably encountered them somewhere, and thus they are present in the inner workings of many writers, to be included for tastiness like a fresh head of garlic.
11 October 2015 at 23:04 #44522Going back to the episode opening: while I understood entirely the point the Doctor was making with his story, the phrase “bootstrap paradox” was new to me; so I have, as the Doctor advised, googled it. I’ve read a fairish bit of Heinlein, but not the story referenced by that phrase, so I am happy to be more informed!
But in thinking about the causal loop, it reminded me of Orson Pink and Dan the Soldier Man. I have never believed that this was a thread that Moffat was planning to drop, and I wonder if there is a clue here to the truth about Orson?
11 October 2015 at 22:35 #44518@ichabod You’re right, there was an element of that with Twin Peaks, although I doubt that the theorists were ever able to out-bonkers what the actual writers of that show came up with! (Incidentally, I still remember being floored by the fabulous opening episode of that show, the layers of event and emotion and the beautiful way they were presented. In some ways, nothing that came afterward ever really lived up to that beginning, for me.)
But I was always able to keep up, even though I was viewing it in the traditional way, on first airing, once a week, no do-overs. What happens on DW nowadays I don’t think can be properly absorbed without the ability to re-watch. At least, not by me. I generally absorb things on a more emotional the first time through, and the second viewing allows me to be more analytical. Aided, of course, by the people on this forum, because I tend to a more straightforward interpretation of things on my own. For example, the tarot card stuff that people have been discussing is looking increasingly relevant, although earlier I would have dismissed it as coincidence. But Moffat is all about mythology, as we know, and tarot would seem to be another form of that, so why not? Would I have thought of that on my own? Never in a million years.
11 October 2015 at 21:54 #44513I should also add to the above, that I have been thinking lately about how much TV has changed in recent years. This is the first show that I have regularly watched that actually requires a second viewing to get everything you can out of it. I know that there are other shows out there like that, but I don’t happen to watch them. But it seems to me that Moffat’s DW is a show that is designed for the world of internet viewing. I find that rather cool.
11 October 2015 at 21:46 #44512@sarah-jane109 Sorry you aren’t enjoying the series so far. But I’m not sure why you feel you can’t say that here. If you have been reading people’s comments you will see that there are certainly members who disagree with one another. There are definitely people here who prefer the RTD era, and there have even been comments suggesting preference for the show of the sixties and seventies. Just because others then come back to debate with them, doesn’t mean that those opinions “won’t be tolerated”. You don’t seem to have posted any views yet, so how do you know?
Certainly some people have said that they don’t like things like the guitar-playing, or the sunglasses. Pop culture references aren’t popular with everyone. I don’t mind those things, I think they’re fun. I don’t agree about the acting, I think it’s been fabulous. Not being British, I rarely have the previous knowledge of the actors that a lot of people here have, so it’s a little like a blind taste test for me!
As for other forums, I don’t post anywhere else so I can’t advise. People here are nice to me even when they don’t agree with me, and that is pretty important to me! People here (on the whole) also tend to choose their words with some care, which I value. Smart people here, I don’t think along the same lines as everyone, but they always give me lots to think about. I get more out of the episodes after reading what people have come here to say.
11 October 2015 at 19:59 #44505@pedant Putting our guesses out there before we know if we are right, that’s gutsy. Bragging rights when we nail it, that’s the prize. 🙂
@craig Perhaps those who always threatened to never watch again have actually decided to never watch again. This made me laugh. Would that it were true.
@phaseshift Yes, I forgot to include Prentis in my list of bits I liked. I missed the “apprentice” link though, but I’m sure you’re right, it’s no coincidence. I also liked the confrontation with the Fisher King. I have a fondness for those moments in DW when some alien bad guy trash talks the Doctor, and then addresses him knowingly as “Time Lord”, and we all go “oooh”. 🙂
@bluesqueakpip You know, I really like the video diary idea. 🙂
@juniperfish Interesting point re the Doctor/Fisher King parallels.
@craig There is definitely a different tone to the Doctor/Clara relationship this series. More confidence in a sense, but also, more brittleness. She said, I think, “If you ever loved me…” or words to that effect, and “you owe me”, which she has said before. He was quite up front about his willingness to mess with the rules for Clara’s sake. I wonder if he feels a sense of guilt over the conclusion of her relationship with Danny that will ultimately become intolerable to him?
@ichabod And given that she’s a bootstrap paradox, where the heck can she be going? Maybe back in time to become her own mother? 🙂
Also, I agree with your reminder that Clara did, indeed, choose Danny over the Doctor. As most companions have, in the end, chosen to leave.
@miapatrick Yes, I was thinking that too, a little surprised that she made him ask: Tell him about the different words!
It occurs to me also that, contrary to some fears after last week, Cass’s deafness did not prove to be intrinsic to the plot. The lipreading of course was woven in, but the story could have been made to work without it if necessary. So the deafness really felt just like a thing, rather than a plot point. Nice.
Also, I thought the guitar version of the theme was fun. I rather like the idea of messing with the theme a bit from time to time. But I no more expect it to be permanent than I believe that sonic screwdriver won’t be back!
11 October 2015 at 18:34 #44495Immediate thoughts: I didn’t find this quite as engrossing as the first part, I think because this felt cerebral rather than emotive. But I did enjoy it nonetheless. I suspect that there will be some dislike of this episode out in the fandom. 🙂 But I have lots of room in my heart for clever, and I thought on first watch that this was clever. It will need rewatching, however.
Bits I enjoyed:
The opening scene with the Doctor in the TARDIS. I thought that was quirky and well done, a little tete-a-tete with the Doctor! I was grinning in anticipation of the Beethoven Fifth chords from the guitar. 🙂
I also liked the ending, with Clara reminding Bennett that there is still life to be lived. It was nice to be reminded that her grief is by no means behind her. And the little bit of romance was sweetly done.
It’s bigger on the inside, it’s bigger on the inside!!!!! 🙂
Question: What is this with setting up interesting potential future companions just to watch them die? I liked this character and was sad that she became the sacrifice of the week. I will be watching to see if this trend continues.
It also occurred to me that we are still waiting to see the series arc reveal itself, other than Clara, obviously, but if Clara’s story is the only arc of the series, then I think fans will have a reason to be annoyed! But I don’t think that will happen.
5 October 2015 at 18:14 #44118Did anyone not like that? Seriously. Fabulous. So much awesome.
Had to wait till this morning to watch as I’ve been out of town, but definitely worth the wait! I like base under siege stuff, and I always find the underwater ones especially scary. The potential lack of air gets to me in an actual, physical way.
I can’t just keep repeating how much I love Capaldi’s Doctor, but really, this Doctor without empathy is fantastic. I loved the little cue cards, and even then, he can’t get it right! Clara was seeming a little hyper to me, as though she were almost desperate to have fun. And then, the Doctor’s remark, “There’s only room for one me” seemed to echo what we have been talking about recently, the idea that Clara needs to be a foil for the Doctor, not the Doctor himself.
The fact that the “ghosts” were transmitting coordinates made me think of Gallifrey. The mention of “harvesting souls” or something like that, reminded me of Missy, but I don’t expect her to be involved here, given that we just saw her last week. I’m happy to see that we are continuing the trend from Series 8 of great supporting characters, I really like this bunch.
My tea-spewing moment: “You were like this when you met Shirley Bassey.” Omg.
And that cliffhanger! Was it actually the best one ever? I literally shouted, “Oh, F@@@!!” Then laughed my head off.
Looking forward to reading everyone’s thoughts!
30 September 2015 at 01:03 #43809@kharis @purofilion
I’m pretty sure that after little Rupert falls asleep, Clara asks the Doctor if he will remember, and the Doctor says no, something about a memory wipe or perception filter. And that he’s replaced the true memory with a dream of Dan the Soldier Man. So Danny would never remember any of those events.
29 September 2015 at 22:39 #43803@denvaldron I would have thought it was obvious. Davros keeps his beer down there.
@mudlark You have expressed my view exactly, and both eloquently and succinctly. This is just why I saw a Davros/Missy parallel. When Missy tells Clara, scornfully, to try for a moment to consider friendship, that was clearly a moment of absolute sincerity. However twisted we may know that relationship to be, she honestly considers it to be friendship. That hasn’t stopped MixMaster from trying to kill the Doctor, frequently.
Regarding the acronyms, I agree that I too have a hard time with them, only because I can’t keep the names of the episodes straight unless they are pretty recently. Like @bluesqueakpip, in some cases I have actually learned the acronym, still without being clear on the actual title. SitL = Situation in the Library? Something in the Library, anyway. 🙂
28 September 2015 at 18:58 #43717@jphamlore I wasn’t actually talking about Clara, but comparing Missy and Davros, both twisted geniuses, both capable of understanding the Doctor in some very deep ways.
@ichabod said these things about Davros : these are the tiny points of light still extant in Davros — that gleam of common humanity – and then you see Davros’s fear steam-roller that glimmer – Davros’s evil is rooted in fear; mania trumps intimacy and empathy. So what’s he really afraid of? I’d say compassion and intimacy — which carry huge, though mostly illusory or transitory risks: rejection. Betrayal. Loss of control.
I think we’ve seen hints of this in Missy, and in other incarnations before hers. As the Tenth Doctor once said, the tragedy of the Master is that he/she had so much potential to be something other than what he became. But as with Davros, it is likely beyond possibility now for Missy to realize that potential.
28 September 2015 at 18:48 #43715@denvaldron Fair enough. I think what we have is some character behaviour that may not bother some people, but feels entirely wrong or out of place to others. I have felt that way about companions or other characters in the past and others have not necessarily shared my view. For example, I felt that Courtney’s hurt at the Doctor not thinking her “special” was overstated, given how I thought a teenager would be more likely to respond to an adult that they didn’t particularly know. Others didn’t agree. Although I could see their points, it didn’t really change my irritation with that bit of writing!
It’s a good point about the Master. Even when he was trying to conquer the earth, one would have to ask why? (I’m reminded of the Sheriff of Nottingham’s plans: “After this… Derby!”) It probably was always more about proving himself than anything else, and given his continued choice of Earth as a target, proving himself to the Doctor above all.
28 September 2015 at 17:36 #43709@ichabod I love your description of the Davros/Doctor conversation. You’re right. Even while I watched, knowing that there was an underlying plot, it was just heartbreaking when the plot was finally revealed. Because you sensed one of those moments where something might have been changed for the better, if Davros had only been up for it. In fact, a lot of what you said about Davros might apply to the Mixmaster as well!
I wonder if friendship is going to be a theme of this series- it has already come up in the Prologue and both episodes so far.
@blenkinsopthebrave Well, not really. I skip over a lot, and tend to find that if someone has written more than a paragraph then it is often a little more thoughtful. I wouldn’t go so far as to post there, though! It just isn’t safe. 🙂
28 September 2015 at 17:33 #43708@denvaldron re your points about genuine emotional payoff and the revolting sewers. I see what you’re saying, and it’s a fair point in a way. But here’s my problem with it. If the Doctor is only to be allowed victory where it is based on concepts that pre-date the episode, this is pretty limiting to the writers. I can see that it might have been better to have introduced the sewer idea earlier in the two-parter, but I’m just not sure, plot-wise, how they could have done so. We didn’t even get to Skaro until basically part two. If you look over the history of the show, I’m pretty sure you would find lots of occasions when concepts we now consider canon were introduced as plot points that would set up a threat or a solution. If they also worked as concepts, they were brought back by other writers later on. Sometimes things are tried that don’t work, and are relegated to the background or quietly forgotten.
But that’s just me, because the emotional payoff of the episode was there for me, I really enjoyed it. It didn’t bother me that this was a thing about Daleks that hadn’t come up before now, because it was creepy as you say, and as a resolution it created a poetic justice that worked for me.
I really like your assessment of the Master as trickster, and your use of “chaotician” nails it for me. It seems that Missy has (currently) abandoned any real interest in running the universe for her own sake, and is only interested in her games with the Doctor.
Interesting too was your categorization of A story and B story. Possibly what makes DW work for me is the fact that I am often more interested in the B than the A. The A is not usually the part of the story that gives me my biggest payoff. Now that I think about it, this may explain why I have tended to prefer Moffat’s era (not always!) to RTD’s, because RTD’s B stories were less appealing to me. Something for me to think about.
A further point about Clara. Could her lack of ability to deal confidently with her situation at the end have come from the very fact that she couldn’t use one of her main weapons, her words? It seems to me that she fights back mainly by mouth, and unlike the Doctor with his sonic sunglasses, she didn’t have another tool in place! (Note that I’m not trying to convince you at this point, because I don’t think I will. Only thinking through what my own view is.)
28 September 2015 at 16:57 #43705Reading some comments on the other place (not the really stupid ones, but the ones from people who can actually articulate a bit of a reason for their dislike) has given rise to some thoughts.
Someone said that the destruction of the TARDIS made it obvious that Clara and Missy weren’t really dead. I actually agreed with that, because that was the moment too far for me as well, in terms of wondering what might be happening. The commenter felt that this removed all the suspense, but I hadn’t felt that way, and I wondered why? Thinking about it more, I realize that it was never a case of believing them to be dead (which isn’t actually suspenseful, either, now I come to think of it). It was more a question of “Are they dead, and time will be rewritten? Because of course, he has to get the TARDIS back.” Or, “Are they not really dead/destroyed, and if so, where are they, how, and why?” I don’t think that Moffat expected us to believe that the TARDIS was destroyed, and probably not that Clara and Missy were gone for good either.
Now, the fact of Jenna’s departure puts a twist into all these situations, because we know that any moment could be her last. But personally, I wouldn’t expect her to depart before at the very least, the halfway point of the series, and probably not until later or even the very end. But we shall see. 🙂
On another note, I saw over there exactly what I feared from the moment I finished watching. Some people are never going to be happy with an episode that slows things down, allows time for conversation, for quiet. I loved those Doctor/Davros moments, and even if they were part of a bluff/double bluff, I believe (as some here have already said) that they were to some degree sincere. I’m pretty sure that those two know each other well enough by now that each could only hope to deceive the other with some degree of honesty. And that moment of shared laughter could not have been anything other than sincere.
28 September 2015 at 06:45 #43680@purofilion Yes, I liked Series 5 as well, definitely my favourite of Eleven’s run. 🙂
28 September 2015 at 06:32 #43677@denvaldron @purofilion
It seemed to me that Clara, knowing perfectly well that her words were being translated into something unrecognizable, tried desperately to say whatever she could in hopes that something of her essence would leak out and be heard. It must have been as clear to her as it was to us that this Dalek’s repeated announcement, “I am a Dalek”, over and over, was striking the Doctor as very odd. And she finally managed to hit on words that would be translated into the one thing that made the difference– “Mercy.”
28 September 2015 at 06:21 #43674@kharis Thank you! I didn’t notice that pattern either the first time through, only on rewatch when I wasn’t so busy looking for clues to things. What was fun for me about that macro-pattern is that it was entirely unrelated to any story or character arcs, but was just another way in which things hung together. As an entity, Series 8 was probably my favourite since at least Series 4, and possibly since the new show began.
@221badwolf Ha! No, that would be bad.
28 September 2015 at 03:34 #43664@purofilion Yes, a little bit of life interference this week, and unable to keep up with some very interesting chats that I saw taking place here. (I will have to try and get over to the Music thread as I see lots of cool posts have appeared there!) Indeed, back-to-school– Arbutus Jr. has just started grade eleven, with loads of homework and various sports. Also soccer has just started up and as team manager, I have been banging my head against a wall for two weeks because people just won’t do their jobs in a timely way!
I will be out of touch for a few days next week as well, as we head off to the wilds of Alaska (family visit) and probably won’t see next week’s episode until Monday. So happy to have new episodes to watch! 🙂
28 September 2015 at 03:28 #43663I must admit that the Clara as daughter idea is not that interesting to me. But @bluesqueakpip’s idea of the Doctor’s son and the Master’s daughter producing Susan could be interesting. @lisa, personally, I hope they steer right clear of that loom business as I have never cared for it! (My personal ARSE moment)
A lot of people here and elsewhere think that Missy expected the Doctor to guess that Clara was inside the Dalek casing. I don’t agree, I think she wanted to see Clara dead at the Doctor’s hand. It’s actually more interesting, although admittedly horrifying, and along with her willingness to make use of Clara while continually belittling and threatening her, paints a very scary picture! We really aren’t being allowed to like her for more than a few moments at a time. One of those very personable psychopaths, and in that, more like the Roger Delgado Master than any that have come between. (Interestingly, Big Finish’s current incarnation, played by Alex MacQueen, has a lot of that same quality, and I’ve really enjoyed what I’ve heard of his portrayal.)
28 September 2015 at 03:10 #43660@jphamlore competence rose from Leela the Savage to Romana the peak to Nyssa who was very good, and then what I consider to be a rather abrupt precipitous decline until finally Ace could at least blow things up. 😊 This is hilarious. Re “Davros remembers”, I think it’s more likely that Davros simply didn’t realize it was the Doctor until he became aware of the Doctor’s latest face.
@blenkinsopthebrave. I am officially subscribing to the overdue CD theory, but I wonder which Big Finish Doctor he favours? Which story was so entertaining that he couldn’t give it back? (And I’m glad to hear that someone beside me was giggling at the revolting sewers line!)
@purofilion You would hardly be expected to either recognize anyone under all those prosthetics, or guess that a respected classical musician was playing an ancient maniacal SciFi genius on TV!
@mudlark. Yes, it was lucky for the doctor that missy arrived before he actually lost all his regens. I suppose he might have thought it a fair trade, and maybe after a whole cycle is less concerned about living on and on than he used to be. I agree with @blenkinsopthebrave, though, it seems a little foolhardy.
28 September 2015 at 02:58 #43658Lots of great ideas here as always. (Can I just say how happy I am that on this forum, people come on and say what they liked or didn’t, what worked for them or didn’t, as opposed to simply “sucked” or the equivalent?) Here are some thoughts that your thoughts inspired in me.
@hudsey If Moffat had really changed Davros or the Mixmaster in any serious way, he would have been accused of retconning and disrespecting continuity, etc., and with some justification. We can’t have a good Davros or Master, any more than we can have a bad Doctor. But others have pointed out the various tiny insights we have been given into those three, even without any resulting left turns in character.
@miapatrick Even before Into the Dalek, we saw successful resistance of “Dalekization”: Tasha Lem, and of course, Oswin Oswald. (I was sure that Clara was going to express some kind of memory of having been Dalek Oswin!) I think that the Daleks will be far more interesting as a species with the potential for things other than xenophobia and slaughter. Moffat or future writers could take this in interesting directions.
@supernumerary But the existence of the episode, and indeed the existence of Doctor Who as a whole, could be justified solely by the Doctor riding and spinning around in Davros’ transport! Well said!
@phaseshift Maybe a Dalek retrospective might be in order? There could be some other Dalek eps worth including.
@serahni I liked the Sonic Sunglasses, mostly because they surprised me and made me laugh. Which was possibly the point of them. I waited when he said that sonicking the TARDIS would bring it back, wondering if that was a genuine miscalculation on his part, and was delighted when he said the words “wearable tech”. But I will admit to being easily amused.
27 September 2015 at 20:38 #43598Well, that was just how I like ’em: shifting effortlessly between dark and funny, filled with lots of quiet intimate moments and punctuated with suspense and surprise. Capaldi was fabulous in that. So was Bleach. Prior to the start of the series, I was less than enthused about the return of Davros, but this reminded me that it is possible for him to be fascinating, and he really was here. Even knowing that he was playing the Doctor (after the brief scene with Snake Man about “trapping a Time Lord”), it was still devastating when he revealed himself. The moment when he actually made a joke– “You are not a good Doctor”– and the Doctor stares uncomprehendingly until it starts to dawn on him, and they both dissolve into shared laughter. That was flawless. And the Daleks have just become way more interesting!
Gomez was great as well, and I loved what Missy revealed about herself in this episode. Her need to save the Doctor and manipulate him, which to be fair we have seen before, was even more overt here, I thought. She even emulates him. I thought her scenes when confronting the Daleks were very Doctorish. She and Clara were a great double-act, but we were continually given the clues that she is not really “guid”. And I found her attempt to trick the Doctor into killing his own companion very, very dark indeed.
The Doctor has also come out in the open in his desire not to be the one to destroy Mixmaster. “Run,” he tells her, and such was the emotion in that word that I for one was surprised that she didn’t, because I was thinking, “Uh oh.” Clara was a bit sidelined in this, unavoidably so I thought, but she was great in the role she had to play. But this was definitely the Doctor/Davros special, with a side order of Missy.
I am left wondering only one thing. When the Doctor went back and rescued young Davros, did he get his screwdriver back? Or will it be wearable tech only from now on?
21 September 2015 at 18:30 #43157Of course, we’ve only seen half the story. It’s hard with two-parters, to remember to treat them the same way we treat the BG serials that we’ve been watching for our retro-Doctor discussions. Because with the modern show, we’ve gotten used to the vast majority being self-contained, snappy episodes without a lot of room for extras.
@bluesqueakpip @blenkinsopthebrave I absolutely agree about “the Doctor facing death”. I think that the story was that the Doctor did a shameful act, and felt obliged to “face the music”, even though it was almost certainly a trap that would mean his death. I suspect that we’ve moved on from that now, and the second half of the story will march to a new narrative, one that involves choice, or undoing his mistake, or saving his friends (which includes the Tardis!).
@denvaldron My guess is that, between the destruction of the Tardis and the reappearance of the Doctor in the handminefield, that more has taken place, which we will be shown in part two. Obviously the Doctor has to have found some way to travel in time.
Regarding Skaro, Missy says, when she realizes where they are, “They’ve built it again, they’ve brought it back.” We don’t yet know exactly how they’ve done this. Or maybe, as you suggest, they have travelled in time to pre-destruction Skaro.
21 September 2015 at 18:22 #43155@bluesqueakpip Had I taken the time to read all the way through the comments before posting my last, I would have seen that you had already answered my question! 🙂
@serahni Good point about Clara, talking vs. running. My guess would be that she has just watched Missy try to talk her way out of trouble, and it ended in maximum extermination. So clearly that approach wasn’t going to work this time.
@ichabod Very nice thought about the poignancy of Clara’s being “put in her place”, so to speak, after the events of last series. I am really liking the continued “re-alienization” of the Doctor, after watching him feel increasingly human throughout the AG show. Although it did stand out for me that, although the Doctor sent the Confession disc to Missy as his oldest friend and one of his people, his most vocal fear seemed to be for Clara. Notwithstanding his complex relationship with MixMaster, we know that he cares for Clara very deeply, in a really very paternal way actually. The line from last season about her betrayal not making a difference, and looking at her at the end of Last Christmas and not being able to tell whether she looks old or young, and even “when do I not see you”; from a parental point of view, all these sound familiar.
Regarding the timing of the incident with boy Davros, it would have to have been recent, because of the screwdriver that was left behind. It must have happened since we last saw the Doctor and Clara at Christmas.
21 September 2015 at 17:45 #43152Regarding viewer stats, I’m wondering how the viewer numbers for S8E1 compared to the average for a series opener. With the long hiatus after the 50th anniversary, only broken by Eleven’s regeneration at Christmas, and a long-awaited new Doctor, it seems possible that viewership for that episode might have been unusually high. If it has now dropped, it might have simply adjusted back to something more normal? This is purely speculation as I have no idea of any of the numbers, but it seems reasonable to me.
21 September 2015 at 02:43 #43091I’ve just been browsing comments on the Guardian, a good source of amusement while most people on this forum are safely tucked up in bed. I’m amazed at how many people seem surprised that Missy is back, because “she was dead”. But seriously? It never occurred to me for one instant after the end of Death in Heaven that Missy was actually dead. We know the Master doesn’t die, correct? And since it isn’t hard to come up with ways in which she might have survived, why waste precious storytelling time explaining it? She’s alive. Deal with it.
Incidentally, I have always assumed that @jimthefish looks a lot like Peter Capaldi. Turns out he looks just like William Shatner. 🙂
21 September 2015 at 02:04 #43090@Supernumerary I took the Doctor is dying as referencing that he was going to see Davros, out of shame for what he had done, but believed it to be a trap and thought he was going to his death. If I am right, then the whole notion will shortly go away. @bluesqueakpip puts it eloquently: The Doctor left a child to die, something very much against his moral sense.
I really like your assessment of Missy in this, and how beautifully the writing and acting here invoke the overall historic character of the Master: the over-the-top plots, the turn-on-a-dime willingness to cut a deal with any enemy that might help him to survive, even as you say the brief exchange about gravity, all pay tribute to our original view of the Master as a mad genius. Later versions tended to place more emphasis on the mad at the expense of the genius. 🙂
@mudlark One of the ways in which Capaldi is, for me, absolutely the Doctor, is the way in which he is able so subtly to convey glimpses of those earlier selves. I completely agree with this. And I too loved the “all of me are invited” line!
@janetteb It hadn’t occurred to me that the Doctor might be aiming at the hand things and not at Davros. It doesn’t quite seem to gel with his expression, but it would certainly make more sense with the Doctor as we know him.
I actually had assumed that “make it up to me” was a way to ensure that he wouldn’t simply let himself die in some way– “now you have to come back”. I didn’t have the sense that she had anything particular in mind. In any case, I think that in Last Christmas, she clearly accepted the loss of Danny and moved on from it. I am often wrong in my guesses, but it really seems hard to believe that Danny will come back after the eloquence of that farewell.
21 September 2015 at 00:06 #43088@phaseshift I noticed that revisiting of old eras but hadn’t thought of it in relation to the 10th anniversary. It’s nice to think we might see a bit more of that, I like little things that help us hang the whole of Who together into one world.
Especially the human infatuation with sex, which may as well be some sort of slap in the face to a certain class of Missy complainer. I also took that as a poke at “shippers”.@juniperfish I also thought it unlikely that Missy had really died, although you can never be sure. Then when Clara was apparently exterminated so abruptly, I decided it must be fake, but again, there was a bit of doubt (was this why they decided to announce her departure, to instill that doubt?). But of course, the Tardis was a deal breaker! It could never die.
We know the Doctor couldn’t destroy the daleks at their origin-point way back during his fourth incarnation, even for the sake of millions, so his apparent readiness to destroy Davros at his origin point, for the sake of one companion, does pose interesting questions. It could be that the Doctor, however momentarily, has decided that his decision back then was wrong. A lot of death and destruction under the bridge since then.
@thekrynoidman – completely agree about the hand/eye monsters – very scary! And this: Maximum Extermination sounds like the title to a bad 80’s action film. Yes!
I actually loved the tank and the guitar, myself! He reminded me a lot there of DT in his more over-the-top moments. Again, Twelve channelling earlier Doctors.
@fatmaninabox Interesting point. I seem to remember some commentary questioning the presence of certain versions of the Daleks in the trailer. This is now explained– a clever way to forestall questions about the return of Davros
@timeloop – It seems to me that Clara is actually not at all happy with Missy’s survival, and especially the fact that the Doctor apparently knew about it. There is a reckoning to be faced there, I think.
And I agree with everyone about Missy. I liked her reasonably well before (although I found her a bit camp) but I loved her toned down version here. Note-perfect!
20 September 2015 at 23:41 #43085And the Doctor is back! Lots to love here after first viewing. What a great opening, I didn’t see that coming. Should have recognized Skaro in retrospect, I suppose, but I didn’t make that connection.
I do love the Sisterhood of Karn: “Welcome… If you don’t leave immediately, we will take your skin.” It was fun seeing Clara in her new, post-Danny life, teaching, noticing the unusual, and running off to help UNIT- “Don’t send a helicopter.” I enjoyed the way she kept telling UNIT that they can’t just shout for the Doctor without at least trying to work out some things for themselves first. The appearance of the words “You’re so fine” on the computer screen made me smile. But we are really not being allowed to like Missy, are we?
I loved the Doctor at his end-of-life party. And when he spotted Clara and Missa, and started the opening riff of “Pretty Woman”, well, then I was just grinning. Dude! I really liked that Davros’ primary wish at the end of life was to have the Doctor acknowledge that he, Davros, was right. He just basically wanted to win an argument. It was also great, that while Missy was savvy to certain things about the Doctor that Clara didn’t completely understand, it was Clara who figured out that he would be doing the exact opposite of what he ought to be doing when faced with death, and was also able to identify shame in his expression, which was understandably lost on Missy!
That was not the cliffhanger I was expecting. Nice. Off to read your comments now.
19 September 2015 at 17:35 #42958@blenkinsopthebrave @purofilion @janetteb
I completely understand how the continual shifting of styles might not have worked for many. I guess it worked for me because, somehow, I felt that I knew this new Doctor the minute he emerged, disheveled and commanding, from his TARDIS. Within minutes, he had become without question my AG Doctor. So however much the tone or the style changed from one episode to another, that thread was there for me, holding everything together.
19 September 2015 at 05:58 #42893Regarding the, um, spoilergate issue, I personally share @phaseshift‘s view. This is the kind of thing that really isn’t so much a spoiler as it is news. I was annoyed a couple of days ago, after being warned away from the Guardian site, when a couple of random comments here gave me a big clue as to what was being said, but once I realized that it had been officially announced, then as far as I’m concerned, that’s game over. Unless it was set to happen in the very first episode, there is no way I would have been able to avoid seeing that news. Now if someone were to leak the relevant story line, I would be seriously annoyed as that would impact my enjoyment.
When a star or co-star leaves a series, it’s hard to keep that a secret nowadays, because they are often leaving to take up another part. Now, someone joining the series could be another matter. I haven’t heard anything about that, and wouldn’t it be fun if they could keep that as a surprise? 🙂
19 September 2015 at 05:27 #42892I don’t have cable either, and iTunes is definitely my solution. The series subscription is not expensive, and includes each episode, the “Extra” for each episode, and all trailers and minisodes (although some of the minisodes take a little longer to appear, for some reason). It’s good value from my point of view, and as @ichabod says, it is definitely yours. Sadly, you can no longer back up iTunes purchases to a physical disk, as I used to do, but it stores in the cloud and you can access it through your account whenever you like.
I usually watch on my iPad, but you can also watch on a computer, or on your TV if you have any way to run your tech to your screen. We have Apple TV but I think there are other possible ways as well; I’m not an expert on that.
Each new episode general becomes available at midnight or thereabouts on the Sunday morning after the Saturday broadcast. I highly recommend it.
18 September 2015 at 22:49 #42861I had a few rambling final thoughts on Series 8 before it becomes past tense. In watching through all of the episodes in relatively close time, it has occurred to me that the series as a whole is actually an interesting exercise in genre storytelling. Into the Dalek was classic geeky sci-fi; Robot of Sherwood gave us some pseudo-historical Errol Flynnery; Listen was a straightup thriller; Time Heist was as stated on the label, a stylish heist flick; Mummy was a classic murder mystery; Flatline was done in that modern fantasy style that sets the unreal in a real-life urban setting; Forest was a fairy tale, full of foresty darkness and beauty.
The opener, the final two-parter, and The Caretaker, half way through, were the arc stories, stories that really couldn’t stand alone. Which leaves Kill the Moon. I really can’t figure that one out. It’s sort of an arc story as well, except that it doesn’t really advance the arc much. It starts out as a sci-fi genre piece in a sort of 1960’s style, but it moves away from that part way through. Maybe that is why it didn’t work so well for some of us? It didn’t really know what it wanted to be?
In any case, I found this a really fun way to build a series. I imagine that Series 9 will be something entirely different, and I can’t wait! 🙂 I get to see it Sunday morning Pacific time, after the download becomes available on iTunes. Meanwhile, everyone, wherever and whenever you are watching, I hope you enjoy the jammie dodgers, jelly babies, and assorted other TARDIS treats, and most importantly, the show!
17 September 2015 at 17:11 #42784I have just watched this again, and read through all your comments. Although I haven’t looked at the trailers again as some of you have, here are my guesses for what they are worth.
“He has asked to see you” doesn’t entirely suggest an enemy to me. Or least, not a Davros/Master type of enemy. This is a request, and clearly not someone that intends the Doctor’s destruction (at least, not primarily). It sounds more like someone who needs the Doctor’s help, which the Doctor is not enthusiastic about giving, either because “He” is untrustworthy, or because the Doctor has mixed feelings about getting involved in whatever the situation is. Possibly both. I don’t think that “He” is Missy/Master or Davros, and I don’t think he is Rassilon (although a bit less sure on that one). I think he may be someone new (to us).
“That Creature”, on the other hand, could well be Missy/Master. “You owe that creature nothing” implies that it is someone the Doctor might be inclined to feel an obligation to. And the “An enemy’s just a friend/Aren’t we friends?/That’s different, I don’t like you” exchange, suggests that the Doctor definitely believes that the line between “friend” and “enemy” is pretty blurry (even non existent). This is rather suggestive of Missy/Master.
“You know who to give that to” clearly refers to a third someone. The Boom Box of Rassilon is probably either a message, or information of some kind. Maybe it’s the thing you do when you are going into danger– “If anything happens to me, I’ve left behind evidence that will prove your guilt.” I also like @whisht’s suggestion that it contains the means to restore Gallifrey. This would seem to fit inasmuch as calling in the Time Lords was always a last ditch solution for the Doctor!
“There are people that care enough to find you” suggests Clara. Like a few others, I think that this scene happens quite a bit later on in Series 9. I think at least some of the upcoming adventures have already happened by this point.
The Sister definitely feels friendship toward the Doctor, there is a sort of sisterly warmth in her expression at the end that suggests even affection. And she clearly understands him. I like the idea that the Doctor still has a friend somewhere in the universe with enough familiarity with both Time Lords in general and the Doctor in particular, that he can trust her in a crisis. And somewhere he can go for a kind of refuge when needed.
As with the trailers, I think it must be good fun to write this kind of thing. Gives nothing away really, but gives us lots to think about!
And kudos to @bluesqueakpip for a rather wonderful bonkers theory. 🙂
17 September 2015 at 06:27 #42772@janetteb I love the idea that Danny could be Orson’s descendant, rather than the other way around as we assumed. It’s amazing, isn’t it, how easily we forget that this is about time travel. I thought that point was made beautifully way back in the Tenth Doctor episode “Blink”, when Sally finally met the Doctor, only to realize that the story hadn’t yet happened for him!
17 September 2015 at 06:16 #42771I watched the two-parter in one go this time, and as with part one, I find that I don’t have much new to say about. Except that I do like Kate Stewart. I think that Jemma Redgrave must be deliberately channelling the Brigadier as she is absolutely believable as his daughter– same calm control and steady humour.
It also occurred to me, listening to how much more Scottish Missy sounds here than in the brief glimpses we saw earlier in the series, that perhaps her comment in Deep Breath about the Doctor’s accent– “I think I’ll keep it”– was meant to reference her own accent, as in “I like it. I think I’ll be Scottish, too!”
But seriously, what a weeper. The Doctor, Danny, and Clara at the end, nonstop tear action. I found it all very affecting, I must say. And the ending, too, a wonderfully understated farewell, and then the TARDIS disappears in the midst of the crowd, Clara watching, and then she turns and makes her way down the street. Possibly the nicest Doctor-Companion parting of the AG series.
And next– Christmas. 🙂
17 September 2015 at 06:10 #42770I’m trying to remember if we have ever in 10 years of AG Doctor Who had fifteen solid minutes without so much as a flash of light, a single moment of humour. Even without the shock value of first viewing, that opening fifteen minutes is still incredibly hard to watch. Then, suddenly, we are in Seb’s office, and he is asking for coffee, “the good kind” and it’s like a sharp wind and splash of water on the face. Suddenly it feels like Doctor Who again.
There was so much good in this episode, but interestingly, less to say about it. It’s all kind of out there, front and centre, not the sort of subtlety of some of the others stories that brought out people’s fascinating insights and interpretations of character and plot. Because here is where it pays off, and we are given the answers.
When the Cybermen were revealed partway through I realized that, yet again, I had forgotten that they were coming. This says something about how the episode held my attention! And what a fabulous cliffhanger, Missy revealed, Danny’s finger hovering over the delete button. (Although I did momentarily wonder how Clara could be so dim as not to understand that Danny was deliberately driving her away to keep her alive. But not always the most intuitive girl, our Clara.)
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