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8 December 2013 at 09:18 #22389
@luxumbra – he’s a time traveller. He knows exactly how badly wrong archaeologists can sometimes get things; after a few of those, it must be impossible not to laugh. That said, he has travelled with archaeologists, so I wouldn’t say appalled – more ‘standing joke’.
🙂[The standing joke in archaeology is, if you have no idea what something was used for, class it under ‘ritual’.]
In Time of Angels there’s a scene in a museum, with the Doctor going: “Wrong, wrong, bit right, mostly wrong…wrong, very wrong! Ooh, one of mine. Also one of mine!” The joke there is that, while he’s happily complaining about archaeologists, one particular archaeologist is using the museum to send him a message.
7 December 2013 at 22:23 #22382@drsmith – just as a reminder, anything that might be considered a spoiler should go in the Spoilers forum for discussion there. @phaseshift or @jimthefish, could you move post #22381, please. Thanks
7 December 2013 at 12:53 #22348Ooh, a wooden Cyberman. And the Sonic ‘doesn’t do wood’.
7 December 2013 at 09:50 #22337@whisht and @rob – my take on The Curator was very simple: he’s a Doctor from the future. He’s retired, he’s taken a face that’s well known to UNIT, and he’s settled down peacefully with Liz I’s job; curator of the Undergallery. It was quite possibly him who told UNIT to look for the TARDIS.
Since Gallifrey’s been found by his time, he can afford to ‘retire’. Maybe Gallifrey has reformed from its ‘non-interventionist’ stance after the shock of the Time War. The Doctor is no longer the Last of The Time Lords, and no longer has the sole responsibility for saving the universe.
The constant references to ‘job’ are a reference to the childish nature of the post-War Doctors. The Third and Fourth Doctors actually did hold down a job. The later Doctors didn’t – but the only one I have problems imagining in a job is the Sixth (mainly because he’d be fired on the first day). Even our semi-retired Curator is pottering along quite happily keeping an eye on dangerous stuff.
But it’s genuinely difficult to imagine Smith’s Doctor with a job. We’ve seen him with a job twice, and it’s still difficult; both times were ‘comedy special’.
The Tennant and Smith Doctors are – as per the War Doctor’s anguished cry – having a mid-life crisis. They don’t want to be responsible adults; the adult they were had to take on too much responsibility – and it broke him.
But if you see The Curator as a future Doctor, you see that the Doctor (even in retirement) is again a responsible adult, holding down a responsible job.
6 December 2013 at 12:33 #22299@phaseshift – yes. And we don’t know context – the actual episode might have number-to-be-determined Smith’s Doctor previously asking Clara to not call him her boyfriend, because everyone thinks he’s her boyfriend and he’s not.
So he’s then doing the most deeply inappropriate thing you can imagine on purpose. 😉
4 December 2013 at 01:00 #22225@purofilion and @juniperfish – the Doctor’s going in a cycle. Nine’s not got a clue (can’t ‘dance’). Ten’s like an adolescent who’s just discovered relationships – and while he’s got an idea that he’s good looking and the girls fancy him, they’re the ones who tend to dive on him. He’s also terrified of commitment – could never tell Rose he loved her, and runs out on Elizabeth I.
Eleven, though apparently more gawky and embarrassed by this whole sex thing, is also more mature. He gets married, doesn’t run out on River, and is later a widower. This is partly why it wouldn’t surprise me if we discover a child in this Christmas Special – it’s the next stage.
“Maybe it’s time I grew up,” says the War Doctor. Maybe that’s what Moffat wants – a more mature Doctor. An adult, a parent. Given the complexities of filming, any child would need to reappear (has already appeared?) as an adult. Capaldi, in his fifties, is old enough to play ‘parent’ to a young-adult Companion. It might well be the intention that his Doctor will quite literally be the parent or grandparent. Again.
3 December 2013 at 09:51 #22190Alas, Tennant’s London run is completely sold out except for the Day Seats. The RSC must love him; a sell out Richard II? Unheard of!
They seem to be trying to find more seats to sell for the Almeida and American Psycho as well – but that’s to be expected. It’s a relatively small theatre and they quite often sell out. Again, there will be Day Seats.
2 December 2013 at 21:12 #22157@juniperfish – death and rebirth. Will the rebirth be simply the regeneration, or will there be a ‘rebirth’?
Yeah, I’d go for a baby. We’ve just got the major problem cleared up; any baby isn’t going to be stuck with ‘last of their kind’. Gallifrey’s now out there; like Susan in the original episode, they’d be exiled but able to look forward to a return.
I’ve had several theories about Clara – but they all revolve around her being incredibly like the Doctor. Right down to her also being able to control the TARDIS doors with a click of her fingers. And talk TARDIS. According to the minisode, she can have an entire conversation with the TARDIS.
‘Descendent’ would fit with all that – whether the Doctor is Father or Grandfather, she takes after him. Timey-wimey; in Journey, was Clara unwittingly seeing her own cot?
2 December 2013 at 20:29 #22156@drsmith – I suspect the reason humans have to stay away from him during the post-Gap regenerations is that they’ll get blown up if they’re too close! It might be some side-effect of the Time War; people could sit by him and hold his hand during earlier regenerations.
In the movie, the Doctor being half-human was some ‘audiences will relate more to a half-human character’ idea. Probably by a meddling executive, as British audiences had never had any problem relating to an entirely alien Doctor.
When the Doctor returned (metaphorically) to these shores, the ‘half-human’ thing was retrospectively defined as the Eighth lying through his teeth (possibly for a joke). In Journey’s End the metacrisis Doctor’s response to discovering that he’s half-human is ‘that’s disgusting’, followed by ‘Well, isn’t that wizard.’ 😉
2 December 2013 at 19:43 #22150I don’t understand how they knew he was a Timelord,
They’re from UNIT; it’s mentioned in the scene when they send the ambulance back to UNIT base. Really keen fans will also spot the UNIT ‘Greyhound’ radio call sign.
The Troughton-Pertwee and Pertwee-Baker regenerations were basically in front of UNIT personnel; they have a good working knowledge of them. In terms of recognising the Tennant Doctor – not sure they’d met him, but Torchwood had and so had Sarah Jane. That makes it likely they’ve got a photo for ID purposes.
2 December 2013 at 19:26 #22149I am expecting the Capaldi Doctor to have some sort of facial hair-otherwise why only see his eyes?
The alternative is possible: that is, he had a beard when they filmed that (he certainly had a beard for filming The Musketeers), but he’s decided on a clean-shaven Doctor.
Or, they were keeping their options open.
9) I agree ‘the search for Gallifrey’ feels like Moffat’s got a years-long (decades long?) search in mind. I’d be quite surprised if we find it at Christmas. 🙂
10) I put forward a theory in my blog post – briefly, they’re changing the timeline, so they can’t retain the memory.
12) Yup. It’s a mystery. 😀
2 December 2013 at 15:34 #22134@mikeofmcr re: 6)
I can’t resist. See my blog post. It has diagrams and everything. 🙂
2 December 2013 at 11:55 #22124@purofilion – I’m so glad I tempted you out of lurking. That was a wonderful post. Amazing the effect Doctor Who had on so many people; teaching kids around the world that it’s okay to be a bit different, to be creative, to solve problems by using your brain rather than by punching someone.
Thanks for sharing!
30 November 2013 at 20:55 #22065@arkleseizure – Moffat’s alleged sexism seems to have taken on a life of its own. It’s become a bit like a Freudian diagnosis – no way, ever, of convincing these analysts that they might be wrong.
I didn’t like the article that much; partly because any argument which lists an entire series of people dying and then says ‘but they don’t count’ is a bit dodgy. Partly because anyone who confuses a plain clothes detective with a ‘nice security guard’ is clearly not paying that much attention. Mainly because they then go on to mention a group of indisputably dead, deceased, no more characters as not being dead. Seriously, Vincent Van Gogh doesn’t die at the end of Vincent and the Doctor? In which universe? Have they confused a flashback to before his death with his not dying?
Anyway, I’m working my way through an essay length blog post in which I do discuss, briefly, why mass genocide becomes a structural problem once you step outside the ‘only adults on Gallifrey’ (a product of RTD’s reading of the Virgin New Adventures, I think) and start looking at the television history.
I may be gone for some time…
🙂30 November 2013 at 14:22 #22031@rob – thanks. 🙂
30 November 2013 at 09:44 #22018The other possibility is that by saving Clara (who suggested this was the end of her story in NoTD) this also changed the result of the TimeWar.
@phaseshift – the more I think about it, the more I think that’s a moment of genius. Can I quote you on this for another forum?
Because – yes, of course. If there’s no Clara, the Moment will be used. The outcome of the Time War cannot be changed; later versions of the Doctor will always decide that there is no other way.
Which explains why there can be two time-lines. In timeline One, Clara’s story ends with her saving the Doctor. The Moment never sends The War Doctor forward/backwards/sideways in time – because there’s no point. There’s no Clara to make him change his mind; all she can do is have him supported by his future versions. Timeline One: Gallifrey burns, and always will. The Doctor cannot change his mind.
With the time-line subtly changed to include Clara, we get Timeline Two. The Moment can send the War Doctor off on his time-travels. The time-line can now be altered; Clara’s nudging will combine with the Smith Doctor’s having had 400 years to think of ‘things I should have done’. Timeline Two: Gallifrey is saved from burning.
And the Thirteenth flies in to help save The Day of The Doctor. Clara saw all eleven Doctors and the War Doctor – there are no other Doctors. Now Gallifrey doesn’t burn, there’s a future for the Doctor.
30 November 2013 at 08:44 #22017@thesteelspine – American companion – Peri (Fifth and Sixth Doctors).
Asian companion: Chang Lee (Eighth Doctor).
So you could certainly have an Asian or American companion again. Or a Spanish companion. I think the only thing against it is statistics: the producers are working from the pool of actors in British Equity. So it’s statistically more likely that the person who ‘nails’ the role at the casting will be a Brit. Peri was deliberately planned as an American (and ended up being played by a Brit). Chang Lee was a Canadian actor cast in Canada, when Doctor Who was filming there.
30 November 2013 at 00:26 #22010@phaseshift – The Doctor deciding to go in and save Clara is a good point; if Clara’s not there, Time doesn’t get changed. In any way – without Clara, the Doctor dies at Trenzalore. But after she’s saved him, he has to decide to ‘be the Doctor’ and save her.
Anyway, just for fun, I’ve gone through the structure of Day of The Doctor – it involves rather a lot of arrows and dotted lines as the characters switch between the time periods.
But what does become apparent as you go through is that the Zygon adventure is constructed in such a way that both parts would have been solved without the intervention of any other Doctor. That is, there is a possible original adventure – one part in 1562 with the Tennant Doctor and one part in 2013 with the Smith Doctor- which doesn’t require any crossing of the timestreams whatsoever.
I’d say that the point that the two halves of the Zygon adventure are designed that way suggests that Moffat thinks of the intervention of the Moment as changing the Doctor’s history.
In addition the Tennant and Smith Doctors remember seeing Gallifrey burn. It’s referenced by both of them – as the alternative that they’ve seen; not a memory of a decision that was never actually made. They saw it burn.
29 November 2013 at 23:04 #22005@timelordninja – I think you need to go over to TVTropes, because James Bond is a Time Lord is probably the oldest joke on there. 🙂
28 November 2013 at 22:35 #21942a twelve hour clock which makes 13 actually 1
@rob – now, I said that in one of the Guardian blogs. (Can’t remember which one, they seem to be cloning like Sontarans.) Absolutely nobody has given me a recommend.
Not that I’m bitter…
😉28 November 2013 at 20:37 #21931@Shazzbot – I think you really do have to take yourself back to 1963; most of the parents watching would be familiar with William Hartnell as playing the ‘tough guy’ roles. William Russell played the ‘heroic’ roles.
So I don’t think they’d expect ‘Doctor Who’ to be Mr Nice Guy – so long as Ian and Barbara were there to be the ‘moral centre’, they’d be fine with Hartnell’s character a being somewhat unheroic Mr Grumpy. Just casting Hartnell – who was well known – sent out certain signals about the character.
Given the tendency for characters in the children’s television of the day to not display the slightest character development, the way ‘Doctor Who’ developed as a person was one of the very original things about the show.
28 November 2013 at 20:23 #21930@dickiegarvey – been there, done that, wrote the story. 😉
28 November 2013 at 20:19 #21928@jimthefish – however, in the poster for The Time of The Doctor, Capaldi’s face is seen in flames. They look like regeneration flames to me. Plus there’s the ‘all thirteen of them’ comment.
In addition, it’s kind of going to negate the entire drama of ‘the search for home’ if we’ve now got Time Lords trotting about the universe going ‘oh, yeah, you find us in two hundred years time. On a Saturday, around teatime.’
😉28 November 2013 at 18:21 #21909@scatamonky – this is why I’m sort of in favour of the ‘two timestreams’ theory. It might also be why Moffat’s being a bit cagey over whether saving Gallifrey always happened, or the Doctor just altered his own personal past.
I think the reason Clara didn’t see Capaldi was that – until the Doctor changed his mind – the Capaldi Doctor didn’t exist. Which is why the titles suggest a trilogy; this is not a three parter as such, but three connected episodes.
Once the Doctor has changed his mind, he also changes his future. Until that moment, there is no Capaldi Doctor. After that decision, there’s a future for the Doctor – and that future, represented by the next incarnation, flies in to help save his home.
And then that future, which we’ve only seen before as a possible, momentary flicker as the Smith Doctor looks at the painting, has a nice chat with the Smith Doctor. It’s the future Doctor who planted the painting with Elizabeth; the Doctor’s own future has been trying to save himself.
28 November 2013 at 14:28 #21894@wolfweed – possibly. Or the BBC could have got so bloody sick of the latest set of leaks (especially after the Matt Smith leaving thing) that they’ve deliberately released fake-but-plausible plot points to flush the leaker(s).
This is increasingly looking like some very unprofessional behaviour is going on at the Beeb – though I’m not sure whether it’s a problem at the BBC, generally, or a nasty little campaign to undermine Steven Moffat.
28 November 2013 at 13:15 #21886@scaryb – Canadians, Mexican and US people are all North Americans.
If you want to specify the U.S. you have to use U.S. or USA.
😉28 November 2013 at 12:57 #21880@scaryb and @jimthefish – yeah, I always thought that they could never afford the Time War on a TV budget. It was always going to be the effect on the people that they could show – the terrified parents, about to see their crying toddler exterminated by a Dalek while the child clutched his teddy bear.
Fortunately for the crying toddlers clutching their teddy bears whilst watching, the Doctor uses the TARDIS as a battering ram. 🙂
I’d agree that Genesis was the opening shots. Perhaps the Time Lords also only survived because the Doctor delayed the emergence of the Daleks.
As I said elsewhere (given Steven Moffat’s reputation for giving producers nervous breakdowns as he goes massively over budget) I think we saw more Time War than the budget could afford.
28 November 2013 at 12:28 #21872@thommck – there’s a line in The End of Time from the woman Time Lord on the High Council.
This is only the furthest edge of the Time War. But at its heart millions die every second. Lost in bloodlust and insanity. With Time itself resurrecting them to find new ways of dying, over and over again. A travesty of life. Isn’t it better to end it at last?
So if any of the people killed can remember the alternate time-streams, the Time War is a suburb of Hell. Which would fit with The Night of The Doctor – that’s why Cass hates the Time Lords so much; the universe is burning, planets are destroyed – and you don’t even get to ‘rest in peace’. Instead you get to die again and again and again.
Oh, great – a Time Lord is rescuing me. How many times can one person die? Well, if he gets me involved in the Time War…
28 November 2013 at 12:22 #21870But … but … this is Doctor Who, after all. Shouldn’t they be showing us all a better way to live – and a happy Christmas family meal
@shazzbot – speculating madly, I wonder if Clara’s Dad’s remarried? After all, it’s now eight years since Clara’s Mum died. So it’s a slightly uncomfortable family dinner with Dad, Stepmum and possibly attached new baby/toddler/step siblings?
If it is Clara and her Dad, I also wonder if the ‘gap’ since we’ve last seen Dave Oswald is to allow an older actor to step in, rather than attempting to age up the 30 year old Michael Dixon.
28 November 2013 at 11:12 #21840@thommck – sorry! I must have missed your bow tie spot when catching up last night; I was a bit tired.
I think Clara is being positioned as representing (in this 50th Anniversary year) The Ideal Companion. That’s why, in the multi-Doctor trailer, she appears in Sarah Jane Smith’s place and has Susan as her reflection. He’s The Doctor, she’s The Companion.
And the Doctor’s ideal Companion isn’t someone who develops messy complications like falling in love with him, it’s a mate. Who isn’t mating with him, sunshine, but is just a mate!
28 November 2013 at 10:45 #21835@billyboy1989 – most of my favourite books include Capital Letters. Just sayin’. 😉
(Check out the other posts and you’ll get an idea of this site’s ‘house style’)
Yes, I’m very fond of Harry Potter. I’m waiting for the Game of Thrones series to finish before I start reading it; I don’t want to end up in a Wheel of Time situation,where the author dies before finishing his twenty volume saga.
28 November 2013 at 10:40 #21834Just noticed from the poster: Clara’s cardie has a pattern of little outline bow-ties. Awwww, cute!
But, in outline, a bow-tie is the Infinity symbol.
∞
🙂
28 November 2013 at 10:29 #21832@badwolfgirl – You say:
Since Gallifrey is saved and, therefore, all 2.47 children, are Doctor’s children among those? Because we don’t know at which point in time they died (presuming it was during the time war) and is there a possibility they are still alive, somewhere on Gallifrey?
Yes, I was wondering about that, too. It’s always been one of my bonkers theories that Susan (his granddaughter) was on Gallifrey when it burned: the Doctor seems so certain he no longer has a family. So it’s quite possible his granddaughter and great-grandchildren are now still alive.
Some people on here have been speculating that Clara might be related to Susan in some way – there’ve been little hints of a connection. When she visited the Black Archives she seemed particularly interested in Susan’s photo.
28 November 2013 at 10:24 #21831@badwolfgirl – yes, wrong forum. This one’s for news items (NOT spoilers, which have their own forum). You need to post questions about an episode in the forum for the appropriate episode.
Link for The Day of The Doctor forum. I’ve replied to you there.
28 November 2013 at 00:00 #21815@pedant – yeah, well, I think people were misreading ‘special’ as ‘the one and only’ and Moffat was acknowledging that he’d written the scene in a way that wrongly suggested that. As I say to Timeloop – the Doctor’s fine with giving Sarah Jane a variant. And he’s replaced broken ones an awful lot.
All that happened in the Eleventh Hour was that the Doctor broke yet another screwdriver (as he’d done before in the Post Gap series) – and this time we found that the TARDIS is now able to do the machining for the replacements.
The Sonic Screwdriver is a device designed by the Doctor and he’s not given anyone else (until River) an exact copy. That doesn’t mean that he doesn’t have a spare in his toolbox. He has a spare in his toolbox. Which is effectively a locked toolbox; the TARDIS will only produce a new screwdriver for him.
[I also don’t believe that the Fourth Doctor knitted his own scarves. So sue me. 🙂 ]
27 November 2013 at 22:54 #21810Oh, Sonic Lipstick…. What could that do?
@timeloop – it might be shorter to say what it couldn’t do (wood. And deadlock seals). But basically – most things the Screwdriver could; unlock doors, disable electronics, deactivate cloaking devices, cut meteorites, shatter mirrors, activate and repair teleports, open ventilation shafts …
I think, myself, the reason the Tennant Doctor was so worried was that he really was wondering if River prised it from his cold dead hands. 🙂
27 November 2013 at 22:37 #21808@timeloop – true, but the Sonic has never been ‘irreplaceable’.* We’ve seen it being replaced, several times. The Doctor simply never trusted anyone else enough to give them a full spectrum version.
Sarah Jane was given a ‘Sonic Lipstick’ – a Sonic-lite.
*The Fifth Doctor did decide to go ‘hands-free’, but then he also decided to wear a decorative vegetable. 😉
27 November 2013 at 22:14 #21804@pedant – how did Moffat arse it up? I never thought for a second that he gave River his one and only Sonic; he’s been able to come up with replacements for destroyed Sonics far too fast to be handmaking the things (since at least Smith and Jones, which was RTD).
27 November 2013 at 11:46 #21757@Shazzbot – the episode titling implies that The Name of The Doctor, The Day of The Doctor and The Time of The Doctor are a trilogy.
The clock’s at twelve; the Eleventh Hour is nearly over. But, once it’s struck midnight, we’re going round a new circle. 11:59 to 00:00
That fits with Name and Day – Name is where we find out about the War Doctor. Day is where we resolve the problem that created the three post-War Doctors. Time, I would guess, is where The Doctor can start again; Capaldi isn’t the Last Regeneration – he’s the First.
(Not literally, metaphorically)
27 November 2013 at 00:30 #21721Yup. Aileen was great.
27 November 2013 at 00:17 #21719@juniperfish – he was simplifying stuff. That there are two time streams is in the text – the Tennant Doctor, when they’re trying to persuade The General says:
The Smith Doctor: Because the alternative is burning.
The Tennant Doctor: And I’ve seen that.
The Smith Doctor: And I never want to see it again.The Doctor would never do that. But the person who did wasn’t – at that moment – The Doctor. Once he’d found his way back to being The Doctor again (not the Warrior, not the Hero, not The Man Who Forgets), he realised that he could never do what he (the Smith Doctor, Clara’s own Doctor) was about to do. Not if he was to be a Doctor.
However, as The Moment says, both the Smith Doctor and the Tennant Doctor think their version of the future is ‘real’. It’s not. Gallifrey burns in the ‘loop’ universe. From the point of view of the main timestream, Gallifrey is missing presumed destroyed and the Smith Doctor stopped his earlier selves from destroying it. That’s what ‘really’ happened. In that ‘real’ version of events, the Doctor forgot that his later self stepped in.
Similarly, in Day of the Daleks, there’s an entire future history that never ‘really’ happens. You have to be inside the loop to think it did.
26 November 2013 at 22:18 #21713@scaryb – I’m doubtful that Osgood is Kate’s daughter. Not because of ‘ma’am’ versus ‘mum’ (I think ma’am) but because when Osgood finds Kate alive she calls her, in her enormous relief, ‘Kate’.
If Osgood was calling Kate ‘Mum’ earlier, she’d call her Mum then. Not suddenly switch to ‘Kate’.
That said, I suspect Osgood is indeed Sgt Osgood’s daughter; part of the UNIT ‘family’. Kate’s probably known her from childhood and is used to playing the ‘big sister’. Osgood, outside working hours, probably does call her ‘Kate’. Given that we do know Osgood was incredibly jealous of her own older sister – not surprising if she’s latched onto Kate as a substitute.
If ‘Downtime’ joins the Big Finish Audio series as ‘official backstory’, Kate’s son and the Brigadier’s grandson is called Gordon. He’d be around 22 or 23 – if he’s also a scientist he’d still be in postgrad. Gordon was the only child seen in Downtime, so I’d say that if Kate has any other children they’re likely to be teenagers at the oldest.
26 November 2013 at 22:02 #21709And let’s face it, to the English sensibility, you can’t get more alien than Scotland or Wales or even (shudder) Ireland.
Ummm… sorry?
@denvaldron, I think you’re confusing the Scottish, Welsh and Irish with the French. There is nothing more alien (to the English) than the French. If the Doctor should ever regenerate as French, the entire universe would collapse. 😈
It would never happen, however, because the thought would never even cross a Producer’s mind. American … ah, the fans wouldn’t like it (including many of the American fans). Australian or New Zealander? Maybe. Scottish? On our third. Irish or Welsh? Possible.
But French? Non!
26 November 2013 at 16:23 #21683how come it’s the woman/PoC that would have committed genocide, oh how sexist/racist of you Evil!Moffat!
@curvedspace – this. We have enough screaming when they cast black actors as the Van Balen brothers – though since the person concerned only appeared to even notice black actors if they were playing villains, I wasn’t too impressed. The only female/black Doctor to date gets to press the ‘Destroy Gallifrey’ button? That has Unfortunate Implications written all over it. 😉
There is a consistent rumour that the role of the Doctor has already been offered to a black actor, but they turned it down. Certainly I’d say Moffat’s done more for the cause of a female Doctor than previous producers (well, short of actually casting a woman). It’s under his watch that it’s become canonical that Time Lords can a) switch genders and b) the Doctor, specifically, has the option of being a woman.
26 November 2013 at 08:36 #21628@badwolfie and @denvaldron – agreed. I think Moffat just gave an explanation for why the Eccleston Doctor picked Rose – but he also gave an explanation why The Momen picked Bad Wolf as her appearance.
Rose, as the Doctor says a few times, is the person who brings him back from the brink. The person who starts the healing process. So she makes sure he’s going to be healed; enough to later work out the ‘other way’ and change his mind.
25 November 2013 at 10:24 #21500Thinking about genre (because, hey, I think about genre), it seems to me that the two plot strands (Zygons vs The Moment) are two different genres.
The Zygon subplot is action-adventure – the standard ‘invading aliens’ plot. Because this is the 50th Anniversary Special of a show whose premise is ‘time travel’, the invasion hinges on a type of time travel.
The subplot also provides the solution – placing something in stasis.
The main plot (The Moment) uses the conceit of regeneration to follow a classic ‘morality play’ structure. The protagonist is met by personifications of his future self, his friends and his conscience. The aim is to have him make a good rather than an evil choice.
Hmmm… I need to think about this some more, but work beckons. 🙁
25 November 2013 at 01:33 #21476@ardaraith – yes, I noticed the finger snapping. The TARDIS suddenly likes Clara enough to close her doors to a snap of her fingers? There’s also a vague implication that they’ve been together for quite some time; Clara’s a teacher now.
Being a teacher at Coal Hill School does suggest that the Doctor can, perhaps, only get to places he’s already been to. He’s been to the moon. Ancient Mesopotamia – I think that was one of the Virgin Adventures. Future Mars – several visits. They might still be stuck in the time stream.
Clara does also seem almost telepathic/empathic towards the Doctor. The War Doctor makes that joke about ‘if I could become half the man you are’. Is she someone his future self has made? Or simply a relation? She also seemed very attracted to that photo of Susan (which I admit might just be a reference back to 1963, just as we saw a female teacher (Clara) with a male teacher at Coal Hill school).
25 November 2013 at 01:18 #21474@denvaldron – it’s always difficult arguing with someone who won’t admit that they’ve made an error of fact; it’s especially difficult when you continue to make errors that show you don’t know what you’re talking about. Could we just agree that – for reasons of storytelling – Queen Elizabeth felt that burying something under a pile of expensive masonry that would’ve been nicked by local builders would have been a bad plan? Instead she decided to pop the indestructible paintings in a guarded underground vault. Okay? Vaults are cool. 😉
Of course, if you’re really upset, imagine the Doctor sent her a note telling her to carry on with the Zygon plan to store the paintings in the UnderGallery. Because if she hadn’t stored them in the UnderGallery, the Smith Doctor would never have gone there, the Hurt Doctor would never have met him, and billions of people would have died.
I fail to understand your point about ‘the Zygons would have no way of knowing when to break out’. The advance party all broke out at the same time: probably a timing device. There may be more than three Zygons in stasis. What they did know was that they didn’t want to invade Elizabethan England, on account of the ‘total dump’ factor. Yes, there were problems with this plan. There are always potential problems with any invasion plan. You can land on a nice empty beach and discover that you’re trying to advance against newly transferred elite troops – it’s a problem. And if it happens to you, you’re probably going to die.
Why do you find the premise: ‘Elizabethan England, from the Zygon point of view, is a complete dump that you couldn’t pay them to invade’ so very, very hard to understand? Their plan is actually very simple (in Zygon terms – as @jimthefish says, this is a nod to Classic Who invading aliens and their weird and wonderful plans). Take over the body of the Queen of England. Have ‘the Queen’ put the paintings in a safe place. Nobody but ‘the Queen’ knows what they really are – and they’re pretty indestructible – so they should be safe for the next few hundred years. Release an advance party on timer, and have them release the rest of the gang if they are successful in finding a foothold. Risks: approximately the same as any other invasion. Namely, they might die. Invasions are like that.
You want the Doctor to do a ‘Dirty Harry’ style speech? Is the Doctor Harry Callahan? Is he the same kind of character as Harry Callahan? Does he have any characteristics whatsoever in common with Harry Callahan beyond being a) male, and b) a protagonist? Might the Doctor be, in fact, almost the exact opposite of the anti-hero Harry Callahan?
There’s no thematic connection, and no ‘in story’ connection between the Zygons and the Moment that is articulated.
Oh … dear. Dearie, dearie me. As the War Doctor says to the Moment:
The War Doctor: She didn’t just show me any old future, she showed me exactly the future I need to see!
Rose: Now you’re getting it.
The Doctor: Eh? Who did?
The War Doctor: Oh, Bad Wolf Girl, I could kiss you!That sounds fairly … articulated … to me. This is, of course, only my opinion. But a legitimate one. 🙂
24 November 2013 at 22:44 #21451I don’t think Moffat’s narrative chess move was simply that New Who’s character up to this point was all based on “a false reality”.
Journey To The Centre of the TARDIS – the Doctor really, really died, then really, really failed, then finally succeeded. Successive reiterations of the loop. I think that episode was to show us that time can be changed for the Doctor. Possibly it was also to show us that the previous trip round the loop still exists in the minds of the participants.
He changed Time by changing his mind. Moffat found a way (unlike in Day of the Daleks) for the Doctor’s time line to be the only thing that changes; because the Doctor can’t remember he changed his own history until he reaches this point, none of his subsequent actions will change.The Claricles also have/will fix(ed) any resulting problems.
I’d agree that we saw Gallifrey burning, plus a mad seer saying only two people (the Master and the Doctor) live. That’s now been changed: but it did happen. Because if it hadn’t happened, it couldn’t have been changed – Clara only exists because the Doctor is the man created by the Time War.
24 November 2013 at 20:11 #21424Look, there’s a difference between stating a reason for purposes of plot, and having something make sense.
Granted. But, that said, there’s also a difference between something that makes sense to you, and makes sense to a character. There’s also a difference between making sensible objections and idiotic ones – how the hell could the Elizabethans bury anything in concrete? Their concrete was only useful for cementing bricks together – they had crap concrete until 1793. And why on earth would the Elizabethans bury a highly suspicious and possibly magical object in their drinking water supply? Their drinking water supply was wretched as it was, without deliberately poisoning it.
Their instinct would be to put the dangerous ‘paintings’ in a dungeon in the strongest fortress they have. Which is what Queen Elizabeth did.
As far as I can work out, your other complaint about the Zygon invasion is that – having an entirely secure method of time-travel-via-hibernation – the Zygons chose to invade somewhere with running water, basic sanitation, central heating and factories. Fine. That’s your problem. Me, I know quite a bit about Elizabethan England – from the point of view of somebody from the 21st Century, it’s a nice place to visit, but not somewhere to stay. I have no problem thinking that the Zygons would be going ‘actually live in this midden heap? Are you kidding me, Commander? Time travel – yeah, that sounds cool.’
Steven Moffat’s an English MA – I suspect he also has a good working knowledge of life in Elizabethan England 😉
That’s storytelling failure 101.
Unfortunately, if you can’t spot a reasonably obvious parallel plotline, you’ve just failed storytelling 101. Twice, in fact, because you’ve failed to recognise that the Big Red Button is ‘show, don’t tell’.
The mechanics of ‘how this Big Red Button works’ will not make the audience care, just as I don’t care whether the gun being pointed at the child’s head is a Smith & Wesson revolver or a Luger automatic. The story is ‘sold’ to the audience not by telling them the details of exactly how Gallifrey will be blown to smithereens or imploded into a teeny black hole or whatever – but by showing the children who are going to die if that button is pressed.
That’s what affects the Doctor. Not the mechanics. He could have smothered all Gallifrey to death with pink marshmallows for all the difference it would have made – he killed the children. He loves children; he wants to protect them. He will put the entire universe to rights rather than leave a child crying. But here, he chose to kill them all.
the story broke down.
Okay, you’ve watched it twice, I’ve watched it twice. Let me go through the story for you.
In a galaxy far, far away, … damn, sorry, wrong story. Rewind.
In the middle of a gigantic war, an old man steals a weapon that can blow up a planet. However, the weapon he steals is sentient; it is intelligent, it can reason, it has a conscience and it is created by Time Lords – so it can see the whole of time, not just a particular moment. Since it also has a conscience, it wants very badly to find an alternative to the old man’s proposed plan.
Therefore, it suggests a plan. It will show the old man his future. He can see the sort of person he’ll turn into.
She’s not quite telling the whole truth: in that future there is a particular place and time where the old man will be shown – not just his future – but someone he’ll come to know well making exactly the decision he’s about to make. He will also see himself, stopping that happening. He will also, though he doesn’t know it, meet someone who was born to correct the errors in the Doctor’s time-line. He’ll meet Clara, whose job is to rewrite the Doctor’s past.
So The Moment does two things: One – she opens a portal to Elizabethan England. Two: she opens a portal from Elizabethan II England to Elizabethan I England. One brings the Smith and Tennant Doctors in contact with each other, the other takes the Hurt Doctor to meet them both.
Note that the only ‘coincidence’ required is that the Tennant Doctor, when visiting Elizabethan England, had to spot a Zygon. The Smith Doctor’s being dragged in is actually a consequence of that – he was the Doctor who got the ‘clean-up’ role once the Zygons escaped into the future. That we see the adventure with the Zygons is inevitable from The Moment’s point of view: she needs something with a future Doctor – preferably more than one – she needs Clara present and she needs a similar type of problem. Yay, Zygons!
So: they have rollicking shennanigans with Zygons, Hurt sees who he’ll be, he sees an alternative, successful solution – but he doesn’t change his decision. Which is a problem for The Moment, because quite clearly she doesn’t want this Big Red Button to be pressed. This time she opens the Time Lock on this moment (Tennant’s Doctor has a line referencing that ‘somebody’ had to let them enter this place and time) – and the other two Doctors turn up. But they’re the Hurt Doctor; all the same man, really. The casing may be different, but the software’s the same. They would make the same decision – and they do. That’s what’s killing them; the knowledge that they would make the same decision.
Clara, however, is the Outsider in the time-loop. She can instinctively spot the ‘wrongness’ in the loop and give that little fractal push. The impetus of an ‘outside’ voice, rather than the constant circling of his own thoughts, is enough to make the oldest iteration of the Doctor remember one of his alternative solutions. The one he probably came up with when he couldn’t sleep for the 100,000 night running, when he was trying so hard to forget.
End of story.
The story doesn’t break apart or fall apart – it’s simply told in three different time-streams so that you have to pick out the story logic across three strands. It’s a ‘trenzalore’ – a story about a braid. It’s epic in scope; a story about a major decision in someone’s life that then has repercussions down the centuries. We see those repercussions; the Tennant Doctor’s heroics, the Smith Doctor’s wanting to forget everything, even what’s important. The children who are going to die if he can’t find a way to rewrite his own past.
The Moment is playing the god (in the Machine) – an externalised conscience, essentially good, with supernatural powers to influence the action.
Yeah. Anyway, I’m off to watch it a third time. 🙂
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