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10 June 2016 at 08:02 #52670
i hadn’t even thought about the new show. i think i read that filming for the next doctor series begins filming in july, so it could really be either (or both!), i guess. we shall see!
š
9 June 2016 at 18:32 #52665i do recall that mysterious filming. maybe it’ll be part of this year’s xmas special?
obviously i wouldn’t mind seeing clara, again (or any other old companion, really), but i am more excited to see what the new companion brings to the show. clara’s story is just too complete, now, for it to feel like anything other than a re-hash of what’s gone before…
but i still trust the grand moff, and he’s probably got something mind-bending and/or heart-smashing in store for us!!
š
9 June 2016 at 07:11 #52658@everyone
http://nerdist.com/doctor-whos-peter-capaldi-says-clara-might-be-back/
as someone who loved clara, even i thought, “steven… LET IT GO!”
lol
7 December 2015 at 08:18 #48950post #48947 should be @countscarlioni
i need a tardis to edit my old posts…
7 December 2015 at 08:16 #48949oi! and i’d forgotten…
was the gruesome statue of liberty, by the door, a moffat troll of everyone who complained about it in ‘angels take manhattan,’ or am i reading too much into that addition to the diner?! (i don’t think it was there in ‘the impossible astronaut.’)
š
7 December 2015 at 08:02 #48947@ countscarlioni
when the Doctor travels to meet Me, he does not say how much farther forward in time heās travelled (or did I miss it?).
he does. he specifically says that it’s the last few hours of the universe, and that the time lords won’t be able to track him there. he also says to ashildr/me “go to hell, by my calculations you’ve got about five minutes…”
upon reviewing this scene, i did find it odd that ashildr/me remembers the events of “face the raven” so well, given her terrible retention. perhaps the time lords brought her forward in time, as well, and those events aren’t all that long ago to her, now? (but that doesn’t explain how she’s remembered everything while waiting for the doctor. it’s clearly been a long, long time since gallifrey crumbled…)
7 December 2015 at 07:50 #48946why is it that the dial ends up being out in the dry lands of Gallifrey when the Doctor exits it?
i’ve reasoned it out this way, for my own satisfaction:
because the doctor exited the dial in a most unique, unintended way (by physically breaking it), that the fracture in the wall opened in a random place, but not a random time. if the time lords had let him out, he would still be on gallifrey, near the end of the universe. but breaking the dial created a “back door” in space, which (luckily) was only a little ways from the city…
when the doctor emerged into the desert, it then reverted back to its original form. so it physically disappeared from wherever it was being kept. it came with him to gallifrey, the long way (via the hole/back door in itself). this explanation works for me, especially when i consider that there’s a black hole being stored inside the tardis… š
for everyone else, it seems that some here aren’t convinced the prophecy of the hybrid has been fulfilled. i have to point out (don’t think anyone else has mentioned it), that whether the hybrid is ashildr/me, or the doctor, or the doctor and clara… whomever it is… they meet at the end of everything, in the ruins of the cloister room. the doctor clearly says to clara that he’s moving the stolen tardis forward in time only, not space. and you can see the remains of the blue cables everywhere (but not blue anymore), when the doctor and ashildr/me are talking. so, the hybrid DOES stand in the ruins of gallifrey (well, on the “last remaining ember,” anyway)… but DIDN’T CAUSE the ruin of gallifrey. time, alone, did that…
(and perhaps the “destruction of a billion, billion hearts” was fulfilled by the doctor’s time inside the confession dial?)
so i don’t think the hybrid will still be a “thing” next series. it has been wrapped up, along with clara’s “impossible” run…
30 November 2015 at 18:44 #48328there is a pulsing light behind the wall, as happens when the tardis materializes/dematerializes,
sorry, the pulsing light isn’t quite that strong. more reminiscent of the console when it’s in use, perhaps? still, i think there is a vaguely tardisy shape around the core of the light? (the telephone booth shape of his own tardis, of course.) i might just be seeing things, though…
30 November 2015 at 18:25 #483275. Grave: I was trying to think why CapDoc leaves the most important clue 10 feet underground. I think it is because he discovers the only way to keep the clue in existence following a reset is to dig below the level of the reset of the garden. It must be that only a certain depth of topsoil resets.
so, for thousands of deaths, he had found room 12, but hadn’t gotten an idea of how to get though the wall? (he would still always refuse to give them the final confession they seek, of course.) otherwise, how could he have known to put a reminder beneath the soil? is putting it in a grave a way to remind himself that he must continue to die in order to give himself enough time to succeed in getting out?
30 November 2015 at 18:18 #48326brilliant post! helps clear up a lot of niggles in my mind…
10. I am a little confused as to why CapDoc says āof course, the final piece of the puzzle has to be the TARDISā (paraphrasing) after he sees the diamond wall and the word āhomeā. Because there is no TARDIS nor any image of the TARDIS.
there is a pulsing light behind the wall, as happens when the tardis materializes/dematerializes, and the tardis really is more “home” for the doctor, now, than gallifrey. whomever set up the trap, knew to entice the doctor with his tardis. and so the doctor (wrongly) assumes that he will break through to her… i think?! š
29 November 2015 at 18:30 #48224to bolster my conjecture that gallifrey was (unknowingly?) saved inside his confession dial (or, at least, a portal to it, where it is in its bubble universe), i noticed, and took note, this last time around…
when the doctor reaches the wall (and the word “home” is there, then disappears) for the first time (our viewpoint), he clearly thinks that it’s the TARDIS waiting for him on the other side. his “home… away from home,” so to speak. he doesn’t realize he’s broken through to gallifrey until he’s on the other side. he looks around, sees the city, and then the boy runs up behind him…
or am i missing something? š
29 November 2015 at 05:47 #48163if it’s the short shot i think you’re talking about, after the truck in the desert… the ear that’s visible looked more like eccleston’s to me! š
29 November 2015 at 05:45 #48162wow, wow, wow…
both of those trailers clearly show clara with capdoc. now, whether it’s his “mind palace” version, or some real version? can’t wait to find out!!
but in the clip where it’s annouced that there’s a regeneration in progress… my first thought was, “clara is being restored!” which could mean that the time lords “engineered” her to… help the doctor? betray the doctor?
oi, oi, oi, oi!!!!
29 November 2015 at 05:28 #48157seems we arrived at the same conclusion, instantaneously! but you type more quickly than me… š
29 November 2015 at 05:24 #48156also, also…
as to how can the doctor have the confession dial? my take on it, is that he was teleported into it by the machine that ashildr/me activated. once he had worked his way “through” the confession, and “defeated” the scary, tortuous nature of the device, it released him, and reverted back to (presumably) an empty dial.
as to why he ended up on gallifrey? perhaps he hid gallifrey in the dial, once he removed it from the time war? but he didn’t know he had hidden it there, and only figured it out as he was going through the confession process? i would love to get a scene next week, of ashildr/me holding the dial, and it just disappears in a flash of light, like the veil…
29 November 2015 at 05:14 #48150i cannot find the right words of praise for this episode. it stands alongside other great eps, like ‘midnight,’ ‘blink,’ and ‘the day of the doctor,’ as the best of the best of who.
for me, anyway. others may disagree…
but, regarding the writing of the word “bird.” i wonder if the brief flashback of clara’s death by the raven inspired the doctor’s story of the shepherd boy, and the mountain of diamond, and the bird that chiseled it away? in that way, the doctor could use the instrument of clara’s death as a tool of his own, to keep giving himself the hint he needs to chisel away at the barrier to gallifrey?
oh, and also, when he heard clara’s voice, and she appeared to him? totally got me in the feels, as the young’uns might say… š
23 November 2015 at 05:30 #47589at the risk of pointing out the obvious, the change of clothes is probably just because they had nearly been eaten. the tattered and battered outfits from the last adventure simply wouldn’t do for the upcoming adventure…
in other words, when you’re travelling in a time machine, there’s always time to look your best!
: )
22 November 2015 at 18:15 #47535just a couple of thoughts…
i wonder if clara’s last words, “let me be brave,” were directed at the doctor? as in, “i’m accepting the consequences of my actions, to save rigsy (and his future with his family), please don’t rescue me from this, doctor…” clara is, maybe, the leaf blowing in to rigsy’s life? but the other side of the coin to the lucky chance that brought her into the world? and i see a parallel to danny’s saving of the boy, danny would not let her change his mind, once he decided to sacrifice himself…
he could have asked her to give the tattoo to him, as he would (presumably) regenerate. i’m surprised that option wasn’t written into their farewell scene. but she was playing the doctor, yet again, ordering him to stay there, to protect him, knowing full well that, like most of his own companions, he wanted to try to intervene at the last moment to save her…
one other thing. the doctor loses companions frequently, but rarely does he see them actually die. they normally die living out their own lives, somewhere away from him, so this death is especially egregious to him. he knows (or believes) that there’s nothing he can do, and that’s the worst kind of defeat. looking on, helpless, constrained by an unknown power. in this instance (rare though it may be), he knows he can’t cheat death like he has so many other times…
17 November 2015 at 15:39 #47191@purofilion
could Rassy be the evolved form of the dust or sandmen? In the way the others are not -the so-called āIāve got a man here who has not slept for 5 yearsā is all rubbish -heās the same as any other eye booger (to quote @whisht)Ā and lumbers about being monsteriesh and is pretty useless apart from needing to āadd to the dustā.
But Rassyās monster is evolved ? So he lied about that too?
knowing he’s the unreliable narrator, i watched that scene again, and i think rassmussen himself is the man who hasn’t slept in five years, perhaps? his nervousness and mannerisms throughout the episode, at first, could be due to the monsters, the life or death situation. but when we find out he’s been a bad guy all along, i think it’s a clue that he’s just not been sleeping well/or at all.Ā (i know if i hadn’t slept in five years, i would be just as psychotic, sandman creatures or not!) also, earlier, he gave the speech about how the creatures were evolving, always being hungry, etc. and i’m now thinking he’s the hungry creature! perhaps over time he’s evolved into his own nightmarish, sleep-deprived monster?!
someone above mentioned that maybe nagata didn’t escape (sorry, couldn’t find the post), and if you pause the scene where clara is putting the key into the tardis door… nagata does seem to just disappear? she’s just behind clara, to the right of the screen, that glitchy video feed thing happens, and then she’s gone! the following wide shot shows the tardis door open, the doctor wailing about it not making sense, but it’s never shown that nagata entered the tardis after clara. maybe it was just the editing, but i had assumed she escaped the first time around. now i’m not so sure…
what if…
we had hardwired holograms* in ‘mummy on the orient express.’ maybe the rescue crew in this ep are those, as well? the confusing tardis p.o.v. shot makes sense if you think that clara is providing it, via her compromised visual cortex… so… *bonkers theory* this is a clara-made story (or an ashildr-made story using clara)? but to what end? to control the doctor? to pull the doctor into a trap? is missy using ashildr to use clara to get to the doctor?!! LOL, i’m spiraling into a maelstrom of bonkersness!!
i think i may have to go through the whole ep and make note of all those glitchy video feed appearances, just to see if there’s a pattern. are those indicators of when a “bit” goes missing? (as rassmussen said earlier on, “there are bits are missing. sorry about that.” but i doubt he’s sorry, at all!) i’m pretty sure the bits went missing to purposely mislead us, the viewers, to tell us only the story that he wanted us to see…
*as mentioned earlier, this ep was originally pitched for the previous series, so maybe it was delayed because the premise would have been too much of a “repeat?” too much of a giveaway that missy was behind the scenes, orchestrating a great deal of the doctor’s adventures, for her own purposes? we never were told explicitly who set up that scenario on the space orient express (!), but i suspect missy. and i also suspect, through ashildr/clara, she may still be “storytelling” in the background, moving the doctor about like a pawn…
16 November 2015 at 13:27 #47104How do we see the Doctorās adventures when thereās no cameras around?
i know what you mean, but:
a) we don’t? by definition, lol…
b) through the eyes of others in the episodes we do see… like the girl from the gamma forests…
:- )
16 November 2015 at 11:11 #47091After all, she told him where Gallifrey was, not where and when Gallifrey was. Maybe Gallifrey wasnāt there yet because he hadnāt yet put it thereā¦
ah, excellent thought! i remember wondering all series long, last year, “when, in his current incarnation, did he go do that?” i thought all the blackboard stuff was him working on the problem, and was fully expecting that to come up at some point.
maybe he does that this series, after clara is no longer with him? š
16 November 2015 at 11:06 #47090i can imagine smithdoc berating himself for being so daft, that it was right in front of him all the time! but surely, knowing it’s saved in the painting, and being able to get into the painting, are two different things? capaldidoc has been actively searching for a path/door back home, but i don’t think he can access “real time” gallifrey by going into the painting…
or, put another way, you can enter gallifrey’s pocket universe from the inside (via the painting), or from the outside (wherever the hidden “door” is). but if you go in through the painting, it only leads you into that one moment (no pun intended), from either direction (i.e. the time lords, too, can enter the painting, but not go through into our universe). the painting is a portal into the bubble universe, but limited in time. there should be a whole doorway out there, somewhere, to where gallifrey still exists, in the flow of time. how else could the time lords actively transmit the distress signal through the crack on trenzalore?
trapping your planet (and all those kids) in an un-changing moment of time is slightly less cruel than burning them, i admit, but i think the doctor has to believe he can bring them back to this universe, and that they still live, out there, somewhere, else wouldn’t he still have a load of guilt to deal with?
hmmm, having thought about all this, the prudent move would just be to find the hidden door, but never bring gallifrey back into this universe. unless he can solve the dalek problem in this universe, there could never be a time that would be safe to do so. but, if the time lords aren’t frozen in time in their bubble universe, wouldn’t they have the knowledge, and means, to bring themselves back, anyway? they sent a signal through the crack at trenzalore, and a new set of regenerations, so why exactly were they asking the doctor if it was “safe?” is rasillon no longer in charge there? hmmm, so many ways the gallifrey story could go…
16 November 2015 at 10:33 #47086ah, i see now. i agree with you, it would have been a smoother, easier to watch ep that way.
the only thing i can think, is that there’s some future/past* significance to the “dust camera” solution. i posited earlier that maybe it’s how missy managed to monitor the doctor and clara all last season, with impunity (the doctor wondering if he was ever truly alone, in ‘listen,’ and missy watching the events of ‘in the forest of the night’ from… somewhere -the nethersphere, i guess?- as two examples)…
missy explained in ‘the witch’s familiar’ how the doctor learned to convert killing energy into transporting energy, so now i’m hoping that dust cameras will be explained, somehow, as the means to how she’s been tracking him…
*indeed, somewhere in all these comments, someone mentioned that gatiss had originally intended for this ep to be in last year’s run, so that would make it even more likely that my theory is on the right track…
16 November 2015 at 10:21 #47085oh, and why can’t he just get the info from the sonic? the calculations were to move gallifrey, and they worked… but the info about where it went? that data simply was not recorded, as the b in that a to b calculation was an unknown, perhaps? it could have, literally, been displaced to anywhere/anywhen, as the plan was pretty desperate, to begin with, and certainly not guaranteed to work…
but, now i’ve thought about it, the zygon’s placed themselves in paintings. perhaps gallifrey is hidden in the ‘gallifrey falls no more’ painting, as well? perhaps that painting was created by the act of saving gallifrey to the pocket universe? and it’s now in the under gallery, (presumably) somewhere in the tardis? (a few people, recently, have theorized that it’s hidden in either the tardis, or the doctor himself.)
16 November 2015 at 10:09 #47082Hereās a mystery to me:Ā Why doesnāt the Doctor know where Gallifrey is?
i think it’s because of the re-setting of the time lines. tennantdoc didn’t remember the events of ‘the day of the doctor,’ nor did hurtdoc (nor, by extension, ecclestondoc). smithdoc only remembers that they tried to save gallifrey, not that they succeeded (immediately after, in the gallery where ‘gallifrey falls no more’ is hanging)…
but then, after he talks to the curator, he knows it was saved, just not the detail of where. still later, in ‘the time of the doctor,’ is when he deciphers the message from the trapped time lords, on trenzalore, and figures out it’s in a pocket universe, somewhere…
i think! but the over-writing of his personal time line(s) in ‘the day of the doctor’ is what originally caused him to not know. he’s been searching for clues ever since, as capaldidoc…
16 November 2015 at 09:46 #47081excellent questions, and i wonder if moffat will ever give us definitive answers (haha, i am a fool)…
but, my take on the claricles is that they appear only in the doctor’s time stream, at those points that the great intelligence was working to destroy him. each claricle is its own bootstrap paradox. she was never born in a traditional sense, she only appeared when needed. the backstory in each individual appearance would change accordingly, so that she could “navigate” the surroundings appropriately (i.e. she would know how to speak gallifreyan, and that’s how she could speak to incarnation #1), but her memories of being born and growing up, etc, were “implanted,” or made up, as needed. or, just variations on the theme of the original clara’s birth? all the claricles are just “stories” that sprang from the original, as she was splintered along the time stream…
now, is the original also a bootstrap paradox, herself? we will (hopefully) get a definitive answer on that in just a few short weeks!
š
16 November 2015 at 09:28 #47078So River kills her. Ā Just a creepy bonkers theory. Ā BTW, note about River having said last time she regenerated she was a child, remember, River lies, has to lie. Ā
did we see river kill the dalek that asked for mercy? she tells amy that “it died.” but, as you point out… river lies!
the other sticking point in this part of the theory, is why would clara shoot the doctor?! why would she pursue them around and through the museum, trying to kill them all?
of course, the doctor could have planned it all, in a timey wimey way! but still, we don’t see the “mercy” dalek die…
16 November 2015 at 08:49 #47073there are no helmet cams, and no cctv cameras in the base. that was clearly stated by nagata and the doctor. therefore, ALL the footage is from the p.o.v. of the dust cameras (or, in the case of people who’d used the pods, their actual optic nerves have been hacked)… however that works?
also, to those who think clara, as a teacher, doesn’t know her shakespeare, nagata is the one who is confused by the doctor’s macbeth quotes, not clara…
a few other things i’ve wondered about:
1) when clara gets pulled into the pod by the “snake” cables, the doctor is clearly just standing there nearby! my first impulse was that he’d pushed her in,* or at least allowed it to happen? maybe it’s just a poorly edited scene? (either by the who team, or, in-story, by rasmussen? he did acknowledge that some bits were missing, in his assemblage of the footage.)
2) a major thing i’ve wondered, is maybe the doctor is wrong about what caused the sandmen? his theory is sentient dust, or whatever, but it’s never proven, only assumed. perhaps the sandmen ARE the vanished crew? not digested, but transformed by sleeping in the pod? he mentions at one point that they assemble from motes of human dust, but that makes no sense when you think about the original crew. unless there’s just A LOT of human dust in the station? but if so, what caused it to assemble into the sandmen, which then attack the crew?
3) it’s made plain by the doctor, that the machines aboard the station are upgrades by rasmussen (mk II’s, i believe he calls them), and that they’re the reason for the sandmen. so, clara is really the only one in danger of becoming a sandperson, as the rescue crew didn’t use those pods. (obviously rasmussen did, and that’s why he’s a sandman at the end?) but, what is the danger, then, of the broadcast at the end of the episode? is it a software upgrade, to be transmitted to the sleep pods on triton? or is it a “booster” signal, that can turn anyone who’s ever used the pods into a sandperson? (this seems the most likely option.) i’m still confused on this part of the problem…
* i had a separate bonkers thought that maybe our doctor is, somehow, missy in disguise. that’s the only reason i can think that he’d just stand there and watch her get pulled into the pod. regardless, he certainly seems surprised that she’s in there, as if he were (at the least) not paying very good attention!
15 November 2015 at 04:18 #46962well, that was different! i certainly need a re-watch, just to figure out everything i missed the first go round… which, is, erm, almost everything? lol
my only coherent thought, though, is…
does this explain how missy was able to monitor the doctor’s every move last series? tiny, dust-sized cameras, or creatures, or whatever?!
13 November 2015 at 06:32 #46864I took another and closer look at the second diner scene and we do see the face of the extra, but I need more convincing this might plausibly be Capaldi.
i admit the second scene offers up a pretty weak connection, the guy in the booth behind amy is almost certainly just some guy. however, the girl in the booth behind amy and smithdoc? she could easily be a clara. and, when all’s said and done, capaldidoc IS in both scenes… at least, as his previous incarnation! this could easily be set up as a claricle moment, as well, as in “you were there for lake silencio, i remember you, now.” š
as for the colour of clara’s waitress outfit, that does make it less likely to be a flashback, per se… drat!
13 November 2015 at 01:25 #46855@purofilion
Thing is, if it is Clara, then would Sir Moff have known, way back then, that Coleman had agreed to be the next companion?
possibly, but it’s more likely that he might just have gone over his notes from ‘the impossible astronaut’ and thought, “oh, i could do something to make those extras more than extras.” if he “seeds” his episodes with some little spots of ambiguity, then later on he can go back and focus on something like that to make it important? if that makes any sense? i’m not saying he does this, either on purpose or accidentally… but when you’re making a timey wimey show, it doesn’t hurt to keep things as ambiguous as possible, just in case!
13 November 2015 at 01:15 #46854the on-location shot of clara leaving the diner shows the tile flooring as it was in ‘the impossible astronaut’ (“squares”). the two sanitized looking shots are likely just promo photos, with lots and lots of photoshopping. i think the “diamond” arrangement in the promo shots is an artistic decision? to draw the eye?
it’s been a loooong time since i took those art design classes in college, but i still remember the basic ideas. to the eye (and brain), diamonds are more “kinetic,” squares are “static.” š
13 November 2015 at 01:07 #46853what’s that old saying? “no bonkers theory is ever finished, merely abandoned!” š
12 November 2015 at 04:25 #46824wow, i just re-watched the beginning of ‘the impossible astronaut’ too, and in the first diner scene we see the backs of two women’s heads, either of which could be clara (because of the similar hair)… one in the first booth by the door (with a young-ish african-american man?), and one in the last booth, two booths behind amy and smithdoc (sitting alone, near the bathroom door)!
in the second diner scene, there’s just the one customer, an older man wearing a cap. which could easily be capaldidoc in disguise, given how easily he did the creepy “face mask” thing in ‘deep breath!’
haha, could moffat really be playing such a long game? i wouldn’t be surprised…
@purofilion
as for the diner looking too clean and shiny, i think that’s because they’re promo pics, all scrubbed and photoshoppy. in the location shot of just clara leaving the diner, you can see the black and white tiles on the floor seem to match the ones in ‘the impossible astronaut’ (squares, if you’re in a booth), while the clean cover image has them set at the wrong angle (diamonds)…
12 November 2015 at 01:29 #46818The text on the cover is surely meaningful too. āClara is no longer the apprentice-sheās sort of become the Doctor. Itās time we saw the repercussions.ā
and repercussion #1 of being the doctor is that, well, sometimes he dies? (or is it that lots of other people around him die, despite his efforts?)
: (
on a happier note, plain ol’ clara-as-waitress is just as stunningly beautiful as any other clara, so far! : )
11 November 2015 at 23:38 #46807I found it odd & out of character that he didnāt say anything about those on board the plane after the explosion
for what it’s worth, the pilots and the few others on the plane may have been zygon infiltrators, prepared to die for their cause. i glean this from the captured zygon’s comments about the plane never landing, as my first thought when he said that was, “how does he know that?” must have been passed info from the guys who wheeled him aboard, maybe? (and a corollary to this, the doctor was just as upset about the “bad guys” dying, but he doesn’t let his outward emotional reaction reveal this anymore. remember the soldier in ‘into the dalek,’ who was “dead already,” and the doctor wasn’t taking time to grieve because he had to think fast and save everyone else…)
but that brings up a further sticking point. the doctor asks bonnie who will make the violins, and etc (i.e. how will the zygons go forward in the world, once they’ve won)? if a zygon copies a pilot, surely it copies the ability to fly a plane? logically, if a zygon copies a violin maker/player (or farmer, or footballer, etc), then those abilities are copied as well? why would the zygons hit an abrupt cultural wall by killing off all the humans?
unless… it’s just a pure numbers game? less than 20 million zygons after the war, and not enough to copy every individual human talent? hmmm… this also brings up questions about zygon society when they’re not blending in with some other species for survival. what was their homeworld like before it was destroyed in the time war?
10 November 2015 at 10:25 #46706Yup. Extensively. Very intensively, in fact, before Capaldiās casting was announced. I think most of us āClara is the Doctorā theorists took the Death in Heaven scenes with Clara claiming to actually BE the Doctor as Moffatās āno, she bloody well isnāt.ā
thank goodness! i don’t remember all that, but it makes me feel better to know that others’ minds have been turned to mush, too. i’m just a little late to the party… š
9 November 2015 at 06:44 #46644oh, and we also have a bit of a schrƶdinger’s osgood situation on our hands! it seems that all our conjecture about which is the human and which is the zygood has been effectively neutralized. (possibly for a future story? yay, for ingrid oliver!)
9 November 2015 at 06:27 #466431. (OT) it would be cool if in the login box for this forum instead of the checkbox āremember meā it read ārun you clever boy and remember meāĀ … i like the way you think!
i just finished a re-watch, having digested the posts here. not much to add, except one bonkers theory, that hit me between the eyes while watching the scene where the doctor wipes kate’s and the zygon’s memories, but spares bonnie’s. when she asks, “what happened?” in reference to the doctor’s story of his choice in ‘the day of the doctor,’ he replies: ” the same thing that happened to you. i let clara oswald get inside my head… trust me, she doesn’t leave.”
now, i don’t know if this has been posited elsewhere. i know several people have theorized that clara is a chameleon arched time lord, perhaps susan, perhaps his daughter with river or missy, etc. (i have thought the same since ‘the snowmen,’ and still wonder if it is how she survived the jump into his time stream in ‘the name of the doctor.’) but… what if moffat is pulling the biggest switcheroo right before our very eyes, this whole time? what if clara IS the doctor? a future incarnation, hidden in plain sight, as a companion, all this time?
what if we’ve had the first female incarnation of the doctor on our screens these last three years?! perhaps moffat has found the perfect way to circumvent all the a.r.s.e.-ness that would erupt over casting a female lead?
i’m still grappling with this idea, myself, looking for the pros and cons of such a long game/long con. but i trust that moffat could pull it off. he basically inserted the war doctor into existing who lore, with barely a few hints here and there. how much bolder to give us a future doctor, for three seasons, with many more subtle (and not so subtle) hints?
@purofilion – you asked, Who is she? perhaps the question is, “Is she Who?”
or, simply stated, “She is Who!”
please, anyone, everyone… help me get this bonkers monster out of my head! my tiny human brain (my poor, noble, donna-sized brain) can’t contain the enormity of the possibility! lol
9 November 2015 at 02:31 #46628Iām not convinced that there is a Zygon Kate. A Zygon took Kateās form at the original treaty negotiation, but we donāt know that the Zygon kept that form afterward. Since no mention was ever made, Iām inclined to think it didnāt.
in the previous episode (in the zygon command chamber), kate says that after the treaty, no one could tell which osgood was which, to which the doctor replies that they maintained their live link to keep the peace. i took this exchange as an admission (by omission) that the zygons from ‘the day of the doctor’ had moved on to other human templates, except for the osgoods. kate doesn’t say, “i’m no longer live linked with my zygon,” but it is implied…
5 November 2015 at 11:20 #46394you are always so eloquent, and learn-ed, in your posts… š
Can monsters find redemption? Can the Zygons change? According to Amazing Grace (and the life of its writer), the answer is āyesā.
in the context of the remaining osgood reaching out to the doctor for help, as he’s playing that tune, it makes me more convinced that it’s the zygon osgood, who was evil, but became good through her relationship with her human sister. and is committed to maintaining the peace, in her memory…
5 November 2015 at 11:06 #46393so true! another thing i wish would be made clear soon, rather than later. though that mystery will probably be kept til clara’s exit is upon us…
:Ā Ā (
5 November 2015 at 11:01 #46392also @lisa
i think the case of the two osgoods is that the zygon became more human-like, and especially more osgood-like, and they formed a bond that erased the zygon’s original bad intentions. it essentially became osgood 2, dedicated to the peace. that’s why i think the osgood on the plane with the doctor is the zygon one, the human osgood having really been killed by missy. (possibly, the “stench” missy smelled on her being the qualities she picked up from her new “sister?”)
the evil zygon clara has only been in conflict with her template, seemingly, and doesn’t seem too intent on forming any sort of bond, lol. she/it has other plans, other than peace, hence the struggle…
maybe? hopefully all of this will be made clear in the upcoming episode (and not left to our interpretations)…
5 November 2015 at 10:52 #46390it’s a very nice shade of tardis blue, innit? maybe it changes colour due to the proximity of whoever/whatever is handling it?
don’t doubt yourself so, i saw the same thing. it appears clara is maintaining her own reality while trapped in the pod. and successfully striking out, thru the telly, at zygon clara! i immediately thought of dalek oswin when i saw what was happening, though i imagine clara is in more of a dream state in the pod, than a fighting-against-being-dalekized state…
:Ā Ā )
4 November 2015 at 08:36 #46320also, how good is the writing, when there are still little bits that are making themselves known, even upon a fourth watch (or, how dim and/or slow am i in picking up on this stuff, lol)?!
like this, in osgood’s conversation with the doctor aboard the presidential plane: “my sister and i were the living embodiment of the peace we made. i would give all the lives i have to protect it.” i initially thought she said “all the LIES,” as in, i would lie to the ends of the world to keep the peace. but now i keep hearing “lives.” so, if this is normal, human osgood, that makes no sense. she only has one life, like every other normal human. (yes, i have to specify “normal” because… well, because moffat!)
so, this leads me to believe that this is, indeed, zygon osgood, who keeps her human form in memory of her sister, and in service to the cause of peace between zygons and humans. perhaps the other “lives” she’s implying are other humans she may have impersonated at some point?
i’m loving this episode more and more, for the many layers that are being revealed. and despite the misgivings i have about the hand-held camera stuff i don’t like. i call it “shaky cam,” and first noticed/hated it when it was used too heavily for the revival of ‘battlestar galactica,’ to which this episode, seemingly, pays homage (as referenced by others here)…
4 November 2015 at 07:25 #46319it is brownish in ‘the zygon invasion.’ perhaps there are two osgood boxes… one for each osgood, with opposite properties?
or (more likely), look at the lights on the floor, and the lit surface of the table, in that pic. perhaps the lighting in that room (the black archive?) just gives everything a blueish tint?
4 November 2015 at 06:57 #46318blargh!! i just typed ‘doctor who’ into google, and THIS caught my &$*#ing eye, first thing…
Doctor Who Season 9: Clara Oswald’s Exit Will ‘Shock’ & ‘Terrify’
courtesy of “Screen Rant.” i didn’t dare click the link, for fear of further damage, but if anyone here fancies a look, just google for yourselves…
4 November 2015 at 06:46 #46317“Amazing grace, How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost, but now am found;
Was blind, but now I see.”does anyone have any thoughts about the significance (or lack thereof) of the tune the doctor’s playing, when osgood’s message comes through on the tardis console? i can’t remember if it’s been referenced in this thread, yet…
4 November 2015 at 04:02 #46305Mind you, as I type this our two household cats are lying asleep at my feet, and I am not at all sure that they might not be zygons!
well, they’re cats, at least, and that means they’ll eat your face if you die! six of one, half-a-dozen of the other, lol…
and i agree with you, i don’t think the doctor has/is a duplicate. re: 5. He refers to himself in the third personāyes. But to what end? To alert the humans in the room that he is a zygon? Or is it, perhaps, simply that this is the way that Capaldiās Doctor talks? i think he’s acting a bit more outlandishly for clara’s benefit. i think he suspects she’s been compromised, and is acting out of character, as she knows him, specifically to see if she will react as a duplicate would… which is, very calmly, and coolly, as if nothing unusual is going on! (though she did call him on the “doctor disco” line?)
or, the other thought i had about this, is that he may be adopting some of smithdoc’s wacky tendencies, because he knows something is going to happen to her, soon, and he’s trying, in his alien way, to deal with that (for himself and/or for her). if that makes sense? he’s deliberately being goofy, to make her smile, to keep her “last days” as positive as possible? she doesn’t know it’s coming, of course, but the actions are more for his benefit, anyway, i suspect, to ease him into his own grief when she’s gone…
and a related point, when he’s assigning the tasks (kate to america, himself to turmezistan, etc), zygon clara doesn’t argue at all, or insist on going with him, like she might have done. perhaps he found this an odd, un-clara-like behaviour, as well?
another point i noted in that scene, kate mentions that, apparently (unless i’m hearing it wrong) only the osgoods kept their living link after the events of ‘the day of the doctor.’ so, technically, there should be no kate zygon, anymore. (i also think the real kate survived the attack of the police woman zygon, so there should still only be human kate.)
jac? she just seems so consistently human throughout the episode, unlike zygon clara, who acts a bit stiff, and unemotional, as a duplicate might (to show us, the audience, who’s human and who’s not). but maybe i’m reading too much into that, as well?
3 November 2015 at 07:52 #46247And then (and this is the point that has me perplexed) she says āKill the traitorsā. But in what sense are the UNIT soldiers and human Jac traitors? Traitors to who? If she said ākill the enemyā it would have sounded more logical.
i thought that was odd, as well. one interpretation could be that zygon clara considers all of UNIT to be traitors to the cause of zygon independence. UNIT forces them to remain hidden, so as not to upset humanity, maybe? it’s a weak reading of that line, but until everything is made clear next time, it’s the best i can do! š
have you any theory about jac’s weird moment when she and clara first get off the elevator, when the boy is being carried away? she gasps, and clutches her side, for no visible reason. perhaps she IS a good zygon, but something in her shape-shift has gone wrong? the police officer zygon did say that a younger zygon could have trouble maintaining a shift, perhaps jac is an inexperienced one, having trouble maintaining the appearance of the older woman?
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