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@badwulf   Yes, yes, me! I know it’s supposed to immerse you in the action, but for me it has the opposite effect, of reminding me continually that I’m reading a book. I struggled with the otherwise excellent Wolf Hall for exactly that reason. I love a well done historical novel, and it was great in so many ways, but I couldn’t stay engaged.

@purofilion   I love the definition of the Whoniverse as “metaphoric reality”!  (Hope by the time you are reading this, you’re feeling better!)

@idiotsavon    He wanted them to remain alert to the fact that the play was a fiction.    Brecht would have been on board with present tense, then… see above!  🙂

@mudlark   Oh, yes, “cathartic” is a great term.

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@mudlark   You’re probably quite right about the way the originators would have viewed the program in the sixties.

I think we are coming at the question/definition from two different directions. There is the original, broader definition that you are talking about. There is also a more recent definition used mostly by film and TV, in which “drama” is divided into subcategories, one of which is called “drama” as well. This version of “drama” was what I used to see at the video store when I went looking for a movie to rent, and I suspect that its use has been driven by marketing, which always wants to put things into categories, the better to sell them to us.

But the “definition”which describes events like the argument in the TARDIS is definitely not what we are after, as @idiotsavon says, because that kind of drama refers to a story element rather than a genre. A literary critic would call it “conflict” or “tension” or something similar.

I like @mudlark’s paralleling of the terms “drama” and “novel”. The novel has also had its meaning altered by common usage, as when you see bookstores having separate sections for “novels” and “literature”. This always bugs the heck out of me, so perhaps I should be more bugged by the degrading of the word “drama” as well!

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@drben    No, it’s the tree, like my avatar. There are lots of them along the shorelines of the west coast of Canada, where I live.

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@devilishrobby    devious and time sucking game      Hahahahaha!  No kidding. I wasted hours on that stupid thing last spring, before finally getting lucky and finishing it. Now I find other ways to waste my time.   🙂   Congratulations on being free to move to the next thing!

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@idiotsavon    Hm. I’d say he will still lie when it suits him, to accomplish something or keep someone out of danger. But he clearly doesn’t lie purely out of kindness.

@drben     That does sound a blast! For the record, I stand firmly in the wishy-wash on Wagner. A lot of it is great, including big chunks of the Ring, and my husband the trombone player loves Rheingold. But I had to study Tristan on two different occasions while in music school, and I heartily loathed it. So I’m sympathetic to the “lousy half hours” point of view.  🙂

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idiotsavon   I suspect I’ll never grow to love Capaldi’s Doctor (or indeed want to hug him) but I bet by the end of his run I won’t want him to leave.     No, I don’t think I’d want to hug him, either. I’d be afraid to! But I’m pretty sure I’d want to go with him.

As to “drama”, I too loved @purofilion’s classical description. And aside from @mudlark’s “serial” and “serious subject” drama, I think there is a slightly different one as it applies to TV: a story whose main intent is to tell a serious story (as opposed to something with the primary intention of making us laugh). In that sense, I don’t think it applies to DW. I think “Adventure” is probably a more accurate category, particularly the BG show. I think, however, that elements of “drama” (the category) have become mixed in to the AG show.

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@purofilion    @drben

I have never felt a need for the Doctor to be perfect, but it’s interesting that the one time I can recall being annoyed by his imperfection was in Ten’s last story. I think there’s a lot of truth to this: he is actually cold and distant, and his charming veneer is actually an act, employed to keep anyone from getting too close.   He was, as you say, so apparently “perfect” that it was harder to forgive when he wasn’t. It was never a problem for me with Eleven, but then I think Eleven was more able to see his own failings, somehow.

It’s probably true that, with every incarnation, some part of what we see is a façade, as the Doctor will always be an alien time traveller interacting with humans. Perhaps he uses whatever persona comes to the fore after a regeneration as part of that mask? I think Ten was genuinely interested in people, and was perhaps actively trying to be happy again. But underneath it all, he was alien, and alone. Perhaps, because he was the “man who regrets” he felt he had to be the perfect hero, to represent his people or to make up for having destroyed them? Eleven has moved on, and as you say: he just wants to be a real boy. That’s a brilliant description.

I think Twelve no longer wants that. He knows he can never be that, but perhaps he’s not sure what to replace it with? His conversation with Courtney really reminded me of a slightly crankier Four, with his off-the-wall remarks and lack of pretense. In fact, I could do a whole separate post on the subject of all the different incarnations I am seeing in the Twelfth Doctor!

Interesting, btw, what you said about Eleven not letting Clara get close until near the end. I felt the same way. I never really felt that the relationship had any depth until the Day of the Doctor, and then even more at Christmas. Perhaps it was because he was so taken up with the “impossible girl” mystery, that he couldn’t see her as a real person? And once that was resolved, she was simply Clara Oswald, and he could actually get to know her.

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@timeloop     I had missed your tribute posting, I have just watched it and am now tearful and smiling! Thanks!

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@idiotsavon    Oh, I like the call on captives and slaves, there’s definitely a theme there, I think. Well spotted.

@cathannabel  Thanks for the link, I enjoyed it. I’m not sure I agree with some it. I think mythologists would have something to say about the notion that the role of self-sacrificing hero is inspired by Christian belief specifically. Remember Joseph Campbell, and The Hero With a Thousand Faces? Whatever valid criticisms might be made about the hero’s journey concept and its spinoffs, I don’t think it can be denied that the basic theme of the hero of sometimes mysterious origin who has come to save the world or some part of it is woven throughout human cultural history.

But I like the point that the umbrella of Doctor Who is broad enough to speak to a wide variety of people, not just those from one culture or world view. This, of course, is part of the greatness of the show, and probably why it has lasted so long!

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…cont’d (last one!)

So, what do we know about the Doctor, halfway through the series? Well, he can be stubborn and impatient, egocentric and egotistical. But he is capable of kindness and compassion, too, and seems to have retained a fierce concern for good and evil.

He is also dispassionate, analytical, and searingly honest. In a crisis, he has no time for sentiment. His belief in his intelligence is important to him (“Hate not knowing” and “Hate being wrong in public”), and he holds people to a high standard (himself most of all). But he is somehow insecure, and is uncomfortable in the role of hero. (Interestingly, his predecessor did not view himself as a good man, but loved playing the hero, the Oncoming Storm.)

He is idiosyncratic, funny, and essentially optimistic. Most of all, despite having “saved” Gallifrey, he is still lonely. Although his people are not destroyed, he is still without them. But he is neither the “man who regrets”, nor the “man who forgets” anymore. As people have speculated, there has been a reset, whether due to the new set of regenerations or the resolution of his role in the Time War. He is revisiting traits that we haven’t seen in awhile. And I’d happily take a trip in his TARDIS, notwithstanding any random insults he wanted to pass my way!

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… cont’d.

In “Listen”, we see the analytical, scientist Doctor. He is very single-minded in his quest, aggressively recruiting Clara. We see the confident way with children that most incarnations have, as he tells Rupert, “Fear is a superpower.” But there is a  reluctance to actually lie to him (“You’re never safe”). His treatment of Orson shows his manipulative side; he has crafty ways of getting at the truth. And he is very, very determined to face up to his fears, but not to let Clara get hurt by his doing so. He listens to Clara in the end, and leaves without looking outside the TARDIS. He can trust.

“Time Heist” reminds us of the Doctor’s alien nature, as he seems truly baffled by Clara in her dating apparel (no insults here, just pure incomprehension). He appears to have a hell of a good time on the heist, admiring clever tech, and flying by the seat of his pants in a truly Doctorish manner (“my personal plan is that a thing is going to happen.”). But things take a grim turn and so does he. Although he reminds them that they must prioritize to survive, his expression after the argument with Psi tells a different story. His instant empathy for the Teller (last of his kind) recalls his earlier sadness about the dinosaur. And his stammering wordlessness when Psi and Saibra show up alive is wonderful to watch. Equally lovely is the resolute way he regains control, and gradually takes charge of his emotions by giving them their “gifts” from the vault. Unlike his two predecessors, he really doesn’t like giving way to his emotions; he prefers to be either ebullient or angry. And of course, the brilliant “I hate the Architect” scene gives a good insight into how he sees himself.

“The Caretaker” shows us a wide range of traits. He’s definitely having fun at first, seeing the threat as serious but nothing he can’t handle. He doesn’t take his “deep cover” at all seriously, at no time acting in any way like a normal caretaker. The warmth he exudes when telling Clara that he “knows” and “approves” of the boyfriend shows his affection for her. And his response to Danny when he learns the truth, his “explain him to me” line along with his quiet remark to himself, “Humans. I never learn,” suggest a sense of betrayal.

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There has been some discussion this week about whether people feel they have gotten to know this new incarnation. While it’s true that we have not been handed a fully-developed character on a plate as has sometimes happened, we have been given loads of clues. I have been having fun going through the episodes we have seen, and pulling out those clues. I’m going to split this into multiple posts, and it’s really long, so feel free to avoid if rambling personality dissection is not your thing.  🙂

“Deep Breath” saw a lot of post regeneration confusion, so there wasn’t much to get hold of. But we saw his instant compassion for the dinosaur, and his self-assessment: “Door. Boring. Not me.” And of course, the final scene where he pleads with Clara, “Just see me,” shows his vulnerability and loneliness.

“Into the Dalek” is a gold mine of information about the new Doctor. His famous question, “Am I a good man?” not only shows his uncertainty but also gives us further insight, when he tells Clara that her answer “must be honest and cold and considered, without kindness or constraint.”  If this is his gold standard for dealing with people, it explains a lot. His view that when the chips are really down, kindness is unhelpful, is made apparent with Ross’s death. We also get a unique view from Rusty the Dalek, who sees in the Doctor beauty, divinity, and hatred of the Daleks. This hatred is a part of him, but he is dismayed by it. As Clara says, he tries to be a good man. He defined himself, long ago, by what he was not– “not the Daleks”, by which he presumably means, “not evil, but good.”

But he tried to “cure” the Dalek in the hope (unsupported by any evidence) that it would remain “good” even when no longer actively malfunctioning. And it didn’t really take much talking by Clara to resurrect this optimism when it briefly left him. He seemed quite delighted at the idea of being miniaturized, even before he met the patient. And he loves a joke: “Ah, a bolt hole… Does nobody get that?” His interaction with Journey Blue is brusque at times, but essentially kind. And if her request to join him had not been made immediately after his Pyrrhic victory over the Dalek, I wonder whether his answer would have been different?

In “Robot of Sherwood”, we learn that this incarnation is definitely not comfortable with being labeled a hero. I think he feels far too aware of his own flaws for that. Some of those flaws are fully on display here, including an “enormous ego” and a stubborn inability to accept that he might be wrong. But he also doesn’t mind having a bit of fun, as his spoon/sword battle with Robin shows. And don’t ever threaten his TARDIS!

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@juniperfish    Moffat bingo???  Is that a thing? I can imagine the cards…  🙂

@badwulf     Our subway/skytrain has had several big outages recently where whole lines have been shut down for hours. Today the spokesperson suggested that next time, people should take the opportunity to go have a coffee! You can imagine how that advice went over.

In truth, one of the reasons I have yet to visit the UK is because, once I get there, my touring requirements will need weeks of time!  🙂

@scaryb   @purofilion   I love solo Doctor, always have. Hopefully we will see more of him in the current incarnation.

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@purofilion    Well, you did say recently that you’d had your head up a bottle (or something like that). We’re very deductive minded here; we will draw our own conclusions.

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Wow, we are roaming far and wide today, in a very literary way. Great stuff!

Happy holidays, @janetteb. Here in my hemisphere the shops are full of gourds and the gardens of the tail end of summer. I was helping out the choir instructor in a lovely music school for inner city kids this afternoon, very little children in this case, and there were definitely several “disruptive influences”. And when one little girl came and told me that her black beans had gone on the floor, and I went off to the kitchen to find a broom, I got to say, “There’s been a spillage.” They must have thought I was peculiar for grinning as I said it!   🙂

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My tune is awfully kitschy compared to the PF and other great stuff people have suggested, never mind the epicosity of @whisht‘s contribution, but the chorus of this popped right into my head during my first viewing of this week’s episode and wouldn’t go away. And so…

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@purofilion     Wow. Did you regenerate whilst on holiday? Or were you actually on holiday, or were you… somewhere else? Off-planet, perhaps? And you’ve returned with an uncanny new ability– you can fix a Playstation.

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@cathannabel     with hindsight and without the distraction of his considerable charms     This made me laugh out loud. Well put.

@oblique      I’d say the title “The Caretaker” was a callout to “The Lodger”!

@idiotsavon     I like your comparison of Danny’s behaviour in the TARDIS to a recalcitrant student, very apt. And your Pride and Prejudice connection as well. And yes, we certainly have questions!

@serahni     When we first met Clara (modern Clara), I believe she was twenty-four? She probably already had her degree by then, and was getting ready to go on her gap year when her life was interrupted, first by the death of a family friend, and then by the Doctor!

Do you think Moffat gets his plot ideas from dreams? And that sometimes, he wakes up too soon, and that’s why some plot points are left hanging for so long?    🙂

@handles     I guess we might learn what was outside the window when we eventually find out where Missy’s “heaven” actually is!

@lasandrea     The “job” is explaining Pink to the Doctor. I suspect the Doctor has questions about him, and not necessarily just about his soldiering!

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Second time through; still loved it.  🙂  I know people weren’t convinced by the threat, but the notion of what was basically a rogue piece of equipment that would destroy anything that came near it seemed like a reasonable threat to me. And I can’t over emphasize how much I love this theme music! It makes me happy the minute it kicks in.

Truth and lies were definitely a theme here, as many have said. Interestingly, the Doctor lies first, and Clara says in effect, “I’m not stupid”. Then she immediately has almost the same conversation with Danny. Then after discovery, Clara lies (very stupidly) to Danny, and he says “How stupid do you think I am?” Then she sneaks Danny into the TARDIS, lying to the Doctor. Another title for this episode could have been “Lies and Stupidity” or as Al Franken would have it, “Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them.”

Excellence in dialogue:
“Is there an alien?” “Yes, me.”
“There’s a sinister puddle.”
The Doctor’s whole conversation with Courtney.
“There’s only room in my head for cross-country and the offside rule.”
“You’re a space woman. You said you were from Blackpool.”
“You’re her dad. Her space dad.”
And Danny’s summary of the Doctor: “There’s an alien, who used to look like Adrian, who turned into a Scottish caretaker, and every now and then when I’m not looking, you elope with him.”

Great moments:
Clara’s glee at the Doctor’s invisibility.
Even though he had it wrong, I thought it was a sweet moment when the Doctor expressed his “approval” of the boyfriend, and Clara was so pleased.
The change in the Doctor’s expression and tone and behaviour the moment Clara says, “Because I love him.” And his look when she says to Danny, “He’s a time traveller.” He chooses to support Clara then, proving his identity to Danny by showing him the TARDIS.
I loved the choice of music as Danny looks at the console room: Eleven to Twelve regeneration music.
“You’ve explained me to him. You haven’t explained him to me.” This moment that says there is still much to be resolved. This isn’t just Mickey the Idiot, this feels fundamental.

I wasn’t sure why the Doctor would ignore the suggestion to evacuate but listening again, it seems likely that if they did that, it would just attract the machine and people would be more likely to get hurt. Keeping them all contained in the hall would make it easier to trap it without anyone getting killed.

I loved the very intense scene between Danny and the Doctor, loved it, and then the Doctor’s unexpected about face to Clara: “On balance, I thought that went quite well.” I suppose, in a way, he’s right!

Danny does seem very fragile, very damaged, when he says he doesn’t know what Clara means by “not that way”. He is very stricken by the fact that she has lied to him, and asks “Why do you go with him?” I think most of us could probably imagine why you would travel in time and space with an alien, given the chance. But Danny can’t. I wonder what that says about him. I think that the level of hurt he obviously feels at what she has this hidden from him indicates that a good bit of time has gone by, they have been seeing each other long enough that he would expect to know important things about her. And yet, surely he has not yet shared the important thing about himself… whom did he kill?

I wonder what the PC saw out the window?

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@geoffers     You’re wise; it probably makes for a pleasanter life.     🙂

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@mudlark      One of the things I loved about Matt Smith’s Doctor was the difficulty he had in “fitting in” with humans. I really enjoyed Ten, but he often felt too “human” to me. Eleven, even when he thought he was getting it, clearly didn’t all of the time. I loved The Lodger, and was reminded of it in last week’s episode, when the Doctor failed to recognize that Clara was dressed up for a date. It recalled for me Eleven’s response to his roommate’s suggestion that if he needed a little “privacy” (nudge, wink) to just shout. The Doctor, after a moment’s confusion, said that he would indeed shout, something like “I had not expected THIS!” The Lodger was loaded with great bits like that, and overall, Eleven’s tenure was full of them (right to the last, when he showed up for Clara’s Christmas dinner having failed to ensure that the other guests would see him clothed!).

Twelve seems to be extending this from an inability to fit in to a lack of attempt at fitting in. In this, he reminds me of Tom Baker’s Doctor, who used to say things that would have been ridiculous if you had thought for a moment that he actually wanted to fool anybody! I don’t think that Twelve was trying very hard to make his “deep cover” work, because he assumed that the “pudding brain” humans simply wouldn’t think very hard about him.

 

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@geoffers    I completely agree that the humour is necessary, it’s what makes him likeable much of the time. This was true of the Larroquette show as well, his character was not always likeable, but was incisively funny. I too liked Night Court, and there were similarities, but the Larroquette show was much darker, less quirky. I do actually think that it might have done better twenty years on, in our post-Sopranos landscape, where people seem more ready to take on less likeable characters and enjoy them. (Except, apparently, for the Doctor, if you read some of the comments elsewhere!)

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@phileasf    Anyway, my gut feel is that the best explanation for the Doctor’s bullying behaviour is that he wants Clara to grow out of him and have a life of her own.     This is a very good thought. In a way, it’s the exclamation point and bold type added to the statement “I’m not your boyfriend.” He’s reminding her that she may feel that she can be close to him, but not really, deep down.

I agree with @bluesqueakpip and @janetteb regarding the lying. When Clara started trying to cover up the truth in that moment of discovery, I actually sighed and thought, “What are you doing now? Are you actually that stupid?” I believe we were meant to see it as the “I panic and talk too much” thing that she admitted about herself earlier in the series, but it’s just so frustrating when people keep making the same mistakes. Hence my belief that at some point, she is not going take Danny’s line in the sand about truthfulness seriously enough.

@blenkinsopthebrave       Your teardrop analogy actually reminds me a bit of Clara’s leaf. So you’re right, it’s very much the kind of thing that Moffat would do!

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@geoffers   You know, I hadn’t made the connection to House, but you’re right, Capaldi brings a very similar feel. I like dark as well; dark, as opposed to evil. Years ago there was an American TV show starring the very talented and funny John Larroquette, in which he played a recovering alcoholic in charge of the night shift at an inner city bus depot. It was brilliant and very very funny, but the ratings were so bad that after one season, the network “cleaned it up”, making it less dark but much less funny. It lasted a couple more years but I don’t think I watched it much anymore as it had lost all its bite. I think it must have been ahead of its time in the nineties, because of course House was hugely successful. Or maybe just that people didn’t mind “dark” in their dramas, but couldn’t handle it in comedy? Not sure.

But you’ve put your finger on exactly what I am loving about the new Doctor: he’s intense, he’s clever, he’s egotistic, he’s funny. I keep reading that people feel he has no charm, but I think he has tons of it. And I believe he is still a good man. But a darker shade of grey than we have been used to lately.

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I’ve just been reading some of the comments on the Guardian and I must say it’s a real slog. I used to enjoy that blog a lot more. But for every thoughtful comment or criticism, there are three “It sucks because it’s about ***, and I don’t want to see ***”. It’s rather depressing.

I keep seeing the word “controlling” in regard to Danny, but I really don’t see it myself. I would say he’s assertive. And thankfully so, given Clara’s personality. I can’t imagine anyone surviving long in a relationship with her if they weren’t. People were very bothered by their scene at the end. But honestly, if you love someone, and they are regularly putting themselves in harm’s way as Clara is, wouldn’t you want to speak up? Especially if you have your own experience with being in harm’s way? I felt the aggressive tone to his “You have to promise to tell me” line came because it felt a bit like she was blowing him off. He was trying to make her see that it was important to him, and that he could accept the double life as long as she was always honest about what it was doing to her. I’m still not sure that she gets it.
I’m looking forward to my second viewing tomorrow.   🙂

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@whisht    When he said it, I thought that there was no actual “thing”. Danny thought Clara was about to cancel on him, and he was beating her to the punch. Except that, then, he came back to the school to spy on the caretaker. So that was probably the thing.

@phileasf   I noticed that too, with Courtney’s parents. But I thought they meant “you” as in “you people” ie. the teachers, the school, etc. But you could actually be right, possibly a year has gone by.

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First batch of replies!  I hadn’t made the connection to The Lodger. One of my favourite episodes for Eleven.

@Marconi     I disagree that this story doesn’t fit into the arc, it very much fit in. If the only “arc” issue you are concerned about is Missy, then some episodes have had less to do with that than this one. But that’s not the only arc we have been given. What kind of a man is the Doctor? Clara’s future with the Doctor? These are also key themes of the series, and both of them were addressed here. I also have no problem with how we are being shown the Clara/Danny relationship. We know that time has passed, and they have been seeing each other. Clearly the tension isn’t supposed to be found in whether they will fall in love, but in how that relationship will affect Clara’s with the Doctor.

@badwulf     @pedant     I didn’t have any problem with Danny’s feelings at the end. He loves Clara, and doesn’t want to be shut out. Feeling that he recognizes the Doctor’s type of leader, he fears she might get in over her head, and wants to be able to help her if she does. It felt a little like the hand you might offer to a fellow officer in a support group. He’s probably been in one of those. And there’s still the death that we don’t know about, that haunts him. Maybe it occurred because of a commander with those traits that he sees in the Doctor?

@juniperfish     the irony at the heart of this episode is, of course, that the Doctor fails to recognise that Clara actually has chosen someone like him – not superficially a la bow-tie, but a scientist (mathematician) and fighter who has renounced war…    Nice! (And I’m sorry that you still aren’t better, it’s really been nasty for you!)

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Okay, loved that. 10/10 for me. “What kind of man am I?” Danny Pink’s answer: “An officer.” Danny is fabulous, but I’m not quite sure that Clara really, really gets the truth of what he said to her at the end. Interesting that he made the same point about the Doctor that Rory did, once upon a time. There should be a support group for “men that love Companions”!

It was actually not a bad guess on the Doctor’s part, thinking that Clara might be dating the teacher that reminded him of Eleven. I love how he underplayed the scene where Danny said “I have to be good enough.”

The Doctor took a shine to Courtney because she is a “disruptive influence”. “There’s been a spillage.”

Missy’s heaven adjusts itself to look like someplace familiar to the “saved” person, someplace they are comfortable. And it’s not just for people who deliberately sacrifice themselves. Dying in the line of duty will also get you there. And too many people are arriving for Missy to greet them all herself.

I must say that this series has not missed a beat for me so far.   🙂     🙂     🙂

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@purofilion     Oh, could you ask BoyIlion if we can all call it a Polshitski Paradox now???? If he insists, we could write it as Polshitski Paradox ™.

Have a lovely holiday! I’m picturing a very green sea (on the surface, not at 55ft down). Pleasurable sigh. I’d love to see the fish but I would probably stick with a snorkel! You’re a braver woman than I.  🙂  Enjoy!

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@handles     Excellent parallel. That’s actually a solution I could accept (although I agree that it might be a bit anticlimactic!).

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@blenkinsopthebrave        Aaaanndd… he’s back.   As the young ‘uns say:  Made of awesome.

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So terribly, terribly saddened to learn this afternoon of the passing of Christopher Hogwood: brilliant conductor, scholar, and founder of the historical performance movement. His recordings of 18th century music were fresh and new when I was at music school in the eighties, and they have stood the test of time. His Messiah will always be my desert island version!

This recording of Mozart’s Paris Symphony, by his Academy of Ancient Music, made my jaw drop the first time I heard it in a class on Mozart way back when, and my audiophile husband always used it to “test drive” new stereo components!

 

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@mudlark    I had completely forgotten the plot of The Abduction from the Seraglio, so all I can say is “wow”. I wonder what they thought the odds were that anyone would pick up on that?

@thommck   Nice diagram, but no red arrows?  🙂

@phileasf   That bit of physics is fascinating! The world of physics is really so much deeper than what I was taught in school– I bailed on the subject in Grade 9 because I just found it so mind-numbing, but between places like this forum and the Minute Physics videos my clever son sends me, I am getting re-educated!

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@phileasf   I’m not sure how much I like the idea that the Doctor is methodically rescuing people, although @janetteb‘s inclusion of the “why that face” issue would support it. And certainly your list of motivating factors is quite believable. But it seems, somehow, well… boring. But it could well be the case, and in a way, it would explain Missy. If he were sending people to her Promised Land (in a pocket universe, like Gallifrey), then her conversation with the half-face man would make more sense.

I really read his reaction to the return of Saibra and Psi as utter shock, because he hadn’t seen it coming (“I hate not knowing”) and relief that they hadn’t died on his watch, as it were, which he then covered up with a brusque “You can continue the mission.” That moment made him quite likeable, I thought.

Randomly, I have been thinking about the Woman in the Shop. There are an awful lot of women running around with the Doctor’s number… The Woman in the Shop, Clara, Kate Stewart, possibly River Song, possibly Missy, and now Karabraxos. If we only find out one thing from this arc, please let it be who is the Woman in the stupid Shop.   🙄

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@handles  You are nothing if not fluid in your approach! I use “defend” in the academic sense of the word, not that they are under attack, but that you are ensuring that they hold up when questioned (as any good theory has to do). “A good explanation” is basically what I meant. Just as I’m not trying to rip your theory, only saying why I don’t agree. Two time lines is harder to argue with, because the facts change from one time line to the next. I still don’t think that it’s what’s going on here, but it is certainly possible!

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@purofilion    Yes, I remember the smile as well, but it didn’t jump out at me as it seems to have done for others, shouting “Inappropriate smile!”

Yes, Gallipoli, great film. My son watched it in Grade 8 English along with some documentary info about the war in Turkey (it was to give them something to practise writing thesis statements about!). For quite some time, he was “Mr. Clever” about that bit of history (although he still knows next to nothing about the Canadian campaigns in WW1).

And good on Mr. Ilion for raising his IQ through word games. I downloaded a scrabble app onto my iPad last winter and played it quite obsessively throughout the spring, maybe I should get tested? No, I think I’ll just assume it’s gone up, I’d hate to be disappointed.  🙂

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@handles    I’m perfectly happy that you should try to convince me of something, nothing wrong with that. I can be convinced or not, equally okay. And if you like your theory, you should certainly defend it!

And if you aren’t happy with “time loop” as an explanation, then going bonkers is what this forum is all about. For myself, I have no problem with it. Also, I am personally comfortable that Karabraxos got the number from the doctor, because she says so on the phone, while there is nothing to indicate or suggest that she got it anywhere else. So in a sense, that is the simple explanation, and I tend to go with those more often than not.   🙂

And I think that perhaps a timeloop is a paradox for people who don’t believe in timeloops?   😀

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@handles    I really don’t see why you think someone other than the Doctor needs to have given Karabraxos the number? I have no problem with this… We saw the him give her the number, we saw her leave, we assume she survives and gets old, and we saw her, dying, call the Doctor saying, “You gave me this number…” So why does anyone else have to give her the number as well?

And as for Psi, I’m not sure why you say he has the number, as I don’t see when he would have gotten it. And there is no reason to think that Psi has ever been in the bank before, and anyway, he said that when he was in prison, he wiped his own memories to avoid betraying his friends and family. So I’m not sure how it follows that he would have been in a position to give Karabraxos the number.

I just see a time loop of the kind that I know we have seen before in Doctor Who  on any number of occasions, way less complicated than the Day of the Doctor or a lot of Eleven’s time line- now, that’s a guy with a complicated order of events!

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@purofilion  @mudlark   After a second viewing, I had some further thoughts on the music. The one place that I was aware of not liking the music was during Saibra’s “death scene”, where it felt overbearing and loud, and negated the poignancy of an otherwise great scene. It didn’t seem quite as out of place to me in Psi’s case, because his death scene was a little more “shouty”. But most of the music felt like a callout to the stylish sixties (I think it was @scaryb who said something similar about the episode?), and in some places dropped right away, allowing extra intensity to certain moments (like Clara hiding from the Teller).

By the way, my take on the “phone me” signal– he wasn’t saying “call me”, he was saying “I’ll call you.” Psi offered help in future heists and Clara replied that it was not really his area, while behind her back, the Doctor said, “I’ll be in touch.”

And a few more random bits:

Someone mentioned the Doctor giving his “soup” to the Teller as a callout to Rings of Akhaten, but I thought that Psi offering his guilt reminded me of it even more.

The sudden appearance of the Teller just before the Doctor could go in search of his own “reward” startled me even the second time through, I thought it was nicely done.

Interesting that the Teller’s victims in their display cases are all hiding their faces, except for the one that we’ve already seen.

I wish the shut uppity up and de-shut up commands worked as well for me, that’s a special power I could occasionally make use of! This scene where the doctor is “working it out” in semi-hysterical fashion reminds me a bit of Matt Smith (the arm waving) and also the doctor as he was right after regeneration (which I guess was also channeling Eleven). Interesting moment of “I am he and he is me”.

People have been speculating about the red vs. blue scenes, but what did the greeny-yellow scenes mean?  🙂

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@mudlark      So no, I don’t think that he hates himself entirely; just those aspects of himself which he recognises in the Architect.

I think this is exactly right. And I believe that this is also true of the Doctor’s dislike of himself in general. The particular list of qualities that he lists off, which he dislikes in the Architect, are presumably things that he dislikes in himself (overbearing, manipulative, thinks he’s very clever). I don’t think he dislikes everything about himself, but he seems to dislike those things.

But those qualities haven’t always been to the forefront of the various incarnations (except perhaps for the belief in his own cleverness!), although they apply quite well to some. Maybe they are traits that he is beginning to be aware of in his current self, as part of his post regeneration adjustment.

I also like your thoughts about what a Time Lord might do with extraneous memories. This could be a whole other area for speculation! There was something back in the AG days about Time Lord’s memories going into the Matrix on Gallifrey after they died. Maybe they also did this uploading from time to time prior to death, like a cleanse? Except that the Doctor can’t get at the Matrix now, so that could be a fairly big problem for him after several hundred years.

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Having watched again, I have so many more thoughts!

Bits I loved:  The poor teachers trying to steal an intimate moment.    The Doctor’s puzzlement at makeup and high heels.     “Please stand away from the door!    We do not wish to hurt you before incineration!”    The return of the memory worm!    The lovely little lift of “the eyebrows” when Saibra changes into Clara.    The Doctor’s answer to why he should be in charge:  “Basically, it’s the eyebrows.”    This exchange: “She wanted to be normal.” “Everyone has a weakness.”

Bigger things I loved:
The sudden propelling into the middle of the adventure, which is confusing for only a moment, until it becomes clear that they have had their memories wiped, and we realize that there is stuff we have missed – a nice conceit because it a) allows us to skip right to the heart of the action, and b) allows us to experience the actual adventure from the perspective of the adventurers: we don’t know what they don’t know.

The whole scene in the bank lobby. The use of slowmo when the teller comes in, and the atmospheric music (I wish I could think what this music reminds me of, but it’s not typical of Who). And then the horror of the mind sucking, which was really pretty awful. I thought this whole scene worked really well.

The scene with Clara hiding from the teller was very well done, use of sound effects and red lighting very suspenseful, and when she broke and ran it was very believable.

I really love how Capaldi plays the relief at Saibra and Psi’s survival– his utter shock, followed by stammering, the “Nononono wait wait sorry sorry … you…” followed by “You’re alive.. No, not dead.  Alive.” And as he absorbs it: “This is good. I suppose.” And then… “You’ll be able to resume the mission.” And with that, Twelve is back, triumphantly giving them their hearts’ desires, taking charge again, being the Doctor. Maybe the biggest break in his defenses since the first episode.

More thoughts will be coming later, after some work has been done. (There is still work to be done. Non DW analysis work.)

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@drben     In my memory, she whacks him playfully on the arm before hugging him     That’s what I thought too. Then I went back and checked, and realized that she whacked him in a totally different area than he place he grabbed. So now I’m going with “not a hugging person”.   🙂

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@purofilion    I should stress that although I say I found it less riveting than last week’s episode, it still engaged my interest throughout. I watched “Robot of Sherwood” with utter glee for 45 minutes, and “Listen” was of course haunting and enthralling and different. This one didn’t quite have the same “wow” factor for me, but I still enjoyed and questioned and absorbed. I made my tea before the episode started; but I never did get my second cup!

What an interesting experiment to run, removing the music. I wouldn’t have thought you could even do that. It would be fascinating to watch different films or TV shows to determine how much the music contributed to the overall effect. I can well imagine certain scenes without the music would have lacked zip. The music allows the film makers to structure scenes in ways where not much actually happens (the slow-mo entry into the bank, for instance). But I wonder, does that mean that our filmmakers are relying on the music to provide emotional content that isn’t present in the script, performances, or direction? (I’m remembering our viewing of Quatermass, which struck me the whole time as a remarkably quiet bit of television. But it never lacked tension or momentum.

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@gothamcelt    @bluesqueakpip      a shape shifting mutant, a bomb, a computer specialist and a massive solar storm      Not to mention a time traveler.   🙂

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@beezilla    Yes, tagging the person/people on another thread works well. But there is a certain leeway for discussions on the episode threads, as it is hard to have a proper discussion without referencing other episodes, and things lead where they go. If something seems to have permanently moved into a new area, switching threads is sometimes good, but it really depends on the kind of thing.

I hope nobody on here really trashes anything that someone else might have liked (although the Sixth Doctor does not get much love here, I have noticed). I started posting here, as someone who has never ever posted on any other fan forum, because of the high quality of the posts and the overall civility of the site, both of which are really remarkable.

There’s been a lot of rambling here over time about the essence of the Doctor, and what makes him always the Doctor despite the different incarnations. What you said here:    My take on DT’s Doctor is he was a “take the horse by the reins” kind of Doctor. Now I did see that behavior in other people playing the Doctor, but it was much more apparent to me with DT’s.    I think this is reincarnation in a nutshell. In certain incarnations, certain qualities come more to the fore, as with this quality that you saw in Ten, being more essential to that version of the Doctor than in others. So when @purofilion says, “The Doctor is always the Doctor”, I think she means that there are certain underlying characteristics that will always be present, if not always as visibly. Hence the discussion in Day of the Doctor about what the name means:  “Never cruel or cowardly”, etc.

I think that the “change and reinvention” process is generally dictated by the comings and goings of the different actors who have played the Doctor. No question Tennant could have continued in the role had he chosen to do so. I think the arc of his story was taken in a certain direction that suggested the need for renewal because he had decided to leave. And so we got Matt Smith, whose Doctor I personally enjoyed quite a lot. And now we have Peter Capaldi, whose Doctor I think I am enjoying most of all!   🙂

 

 

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@phaseshift   I has been suggested before that the Doctor doesn’t like himself, with the whole “Dream Lord” character. It has also been said that the Doctor isn’t always fond of his own past incarnations. And there’s the “I’ve made many mistakes” line. I think in two thousand years of time travel, and several hundred of being the last of the Time Lords, it would be possible to make enough mistakes that you might not like yourself much, if you allow yourself to dwell on it!

@phileasf   Thanks for your concise and eloquent clarification of the Doctor’s use of the TARDIS. I was a bit confused on this point after only one watch, but it makes perfect sense now!

@janetteb   I agree that this was less continually riveting for me than the previous two (RoS was a thorough delight, and Listen was end-to-end breathtaking), but I rate it higher than Into the Dalek, which I enjoyed but found slightly less engaging. But really, for me, the quality of all the episodes so far has been high enough that this is a quibble. As you say, something for everyone!

@rob    Thirdly, beat that for a date, a dad or grandad sort of comment. By which I mean the Doctor isn’t being possessive he is being protective. If the date can compete then he is worthy     This is a neat idea, except that I’m not sure that the Doctor would ever really believe that anyone could compete!

By the way, is it me or were your points out of their proper time stream? And will they remember themselves afterward?  🙂

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Wow, an inspiring theme, this one, lots of great tracks already! Special thanks @scaryb, for yesterday’s great bit of Delbert McClinton, and @purofilion for the Flanders & Swann. We love songs about science in our house!  🙂  Here are my heist tunes:

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@nick1235    The slow-mo of when they’re getting in to the bank is VERY VERY SEXY.     I completely agree, I loved this bit, it was pretty stylish!

@badwulf    The guy who got “souped” was a bystander, but clearly not innocent (except of trying to break into the bank!).

@bluesqueakpip    Interesting point about Clara’s guilt. I wonder if it is to do with Danny, given that we seem to be headed for “Clara nervous breakdown” territory next week, as she is obviously struggling to maintain two separate lives. I’m glad we’ll be seeing that, as I really don’t think it would be possible to do it successfully for long, especially when in the delicate stages of a new relationship.

@serahni    I completely agree about the Doctor’s little moment of “oneupmanship” of his as yet unseen competition. He probably also suspects that, the minute Clara gets truly involved in a proper relationship, that that is the moment when he will begin to lose her as a companion.

@apopheniac   I actually find it quite believable that he would be competing for Clara’s attention. It has been established that he is really not fully settled in this incarnation, and seems to be reliant on her in a way that he doesn’t admit. He is clearly not ready to “go it alone”. My personal hope for the end of her story would be that she decides to stop traveling with him (either because of Danny or for some other “growing up” reason) and he accepts that as he realizes that he no longer needs her as a prop. At that point, he is truly regenerated and good to go, off into time and space to find other friends and so on.

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Hey, I love a good heist flick, so this was lots of fun. I thought the music was great, with the stylish soundtrack behind the early scenes giving way to a more dramatic style as the story became more intense. Kudos to @idiotsavon who called the pattern of suppressing senses: Don’t think!

I loved the moment when the Doctor stared in disbelief at the nice tidy hole in the floor. And when he gave the others their “rewards”, I felt an instant of deep, deep sorrow that he hadn’t gotten his! Until I realized a moment later that he was still going for it.  🙂

I have started feeling a little annoyed at the constant harping of various characters at the Doctor for failing to stop in the middle of a life-threatening situation to feel sorrow for someone’s death. Frankly, if I was part of the group, I would be pretty relieved that the Doctor was focused on getting us all out alive! It was a beautiful little moment when he realized that they weren’t dead after all, and dropped his “hard-guy” mask for a moment. Also, his empathy for the “monster” was apparent from the first moment he realized what it was: the of its kind, forced somehow into servitude.

I didn’t see the end coming at all, which is fun. I liked how the story turned in on itself– we are seeing a lot of time looping in this series, I wonder if there is significance to that?

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Sooner or later, everyone that comes here needs a drink, so here it is!

 

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